And they overcame by....

[Robert]

How would you know Robert what we are doing?

He who says, “I am holy, I am sinless,” is self-deceived. Some have said this, and some even dare to say, “I am Christ.” To entertain such a thought is blasphemy. Not to see the marked contrast between Christ and ourselves is not to know ourselves. He who does not abhor himself can not understand the meaning of redemption. RH Sep 25, 1900

That's how I know plus the Bible

[Robert]

We are trying to point out one can be an overcomer in this life and He expects it since He has made the way for each to do it.

I don't have a problem with overcoming...I have a problem with your spin that "He expects it". That's legalism and it makes what Christ did 2000 years ago void!

What He expects is faith and that will bear fruit (not perfection).

"So long as Satan reigns, we shall have self to subdue, besetting sins to overcome; so long as life shall last, there will be no stopping place, no point which we can reach and say, I have fully attained."

[Gibs]

Dear Robert, yes He expects it, He Himself is the one that stated, he that overcometh will not be hurt of the second death!

Unless we do, what then, what do ye imagine? We can be perfect as He expects us to be perfect surrounded as we are in this sphere of what we a living in.

Is it worse now than when He was here? I believe so and He makes allowance for that in righteousness. We must hate sin as He does and then we shun it as a plague, we must.

Who has fully attained? We leave that to Him to say, we keep pressing on with all that He gives us and that is what he expects. Then we are accounted perfect in this filthy sphere we are in as he is in His Holy sphere.

Then the day will come when we will be raised and made Holy and will dwell in a Holy sphere, then the attainment will be fully completed.

We are far from legalism, as the realization is we can do nothing of ourselves, it is He in us that works and our love and faith for Him and in Him is ours then to cooperate and be in part with Him to overcome all that He expects of us.

Death of self and full repentance is the breaking point that He can be the Master and only Him in us that we then are the temple for Him to dwell in.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

....yes He expects it....

No He doesn't!

And if He does why are you still holding on to what you have? Give it up...live for others...build their wealth without one thought of yourself. You aren't doing it so don't sin by telling me you are.

Gibs, your hellish teaching is the same the Pharisees taught. The problem is you never know if you are perfect. So it's a game of cat and mouse forever.

As for me, I have the assurance of faith. In Christ I stand spotless. That's what counts as far as my salvation goes.

But you, you have no hope because you are basing your salvation on your performance. Sad...real sad.

[Robert]

But you, you have no hope because you are basing your salvation on your performance.

The problem, however, is that you are a wolf in sheep's clothing. When you talk other believers into your brand of heresy, well, you make them twice the son of hell. That's what I'm worried about...others. You, well, I can also tell you aren't going to budge. You are, as was Job, "righteous in your own eyes"

[Gibs]

Robert, He expects it I am sure, please read,

1Jo 5:4 For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

1Jo 5:5 Who is he that overcometh the world, but he that believeth that Jesus is the Son of God?

Re 2:7 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God.

Re 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Re 2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.

Re 2:26 And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I give power over the nations:

Re 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.

Re 3:12 Him that overcometh will I make a pillar in the temple of my God, and he shall go no more out: and I will write upon him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, which is new Jerusalem, which cometh down out of heaven from my God: and I will write upon him my new name.

Re 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Re 21:7 He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.

To whom does He give those promises to?

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

You like Revelation, don't you? I use to spend a lot of time there too. Until I gave up on legalism, that is...

You see Revelation is easy to manipulate because it is highly symbolic. So I try not to base everything in Revelation just as it reads.

Now, back to Ellen White:

The nearer we come to Jesus and the more clearly we discern the purity of His character, the more clearly we shall discern the exceeding sinfulness of sin and the less we shall feel like exalting ourselves. Those whom heaven recognizes as holy ones are the last to parade their own goodness (i.e., they aren't aware of doing good things)....None of the apostles or prophets ever claimed to be without sin. Men who have lived nearest to God, men who would sacrifice life itself rather than knowingly commit a wrong act, men whom God had honored with divine light and power, have confessed the sinfulness of their own nature. They have put no confidence in the flesh, have claimed no righteousness of their own, but have trusted wholly in the righteousness of Christ. So will it be with all who behold Christ.

At every advance step in Christian experience our repentance will deepen.... Then our lips will not be opened in self-glorification. We shall know that our sufficiency is in Christ alone.—Christ’s Object Lessons, 159-161

[Robert]

At every advance step in Christian experience our repentance will deepen.... Then our lips will not be opened in self-glorification. We shall know that our sufficiency is in Christ alone.—Christ’s Object Lessons, 159-161

Perfection through our own good works we can never attain. The soul who sees Jesus by faith, repudiates his own righteousness. He sees himself as incomplete, his repentance insufficient, his strongest faith but feebleness, his most costly sacrifice as meager, and he sinks in humility at the foot of the cross. But a voice speaks to him from the oracles of God’s Word. In amazement he hears the message, “Ye are complete in Him.” Now all is at rest in his soul. No longer must he strive to find some worthiness in himself, some meritorious deed by which to gain the favor of God.

[Robert]

In amazement he hears the message, “Ye are complete in Him.”

If what Christ did 2000 years ago in my humanity isn't good enough then I am not complete in Him unless I become perfect. That, of course, is pure hellish heresy!!!

In fact, until we reach the place were we have absolute confidence and assurance that "in Christ" we stand perfect now and in the judgment we will never be able to experience genuine agape love. All we will produce is "works of iniquity" (self-righteousness).

[Gibs]

Yes you can know my sufficiency is in Christ alone, He is my all in all and without Him I am nothing but with Him within I am enabled.

You know, "I can do all things through Christ who strengtheneth me" All can and no exception if wanting to and not pushing Him away. Take Him into your self and come out more than a victor.

Ro 8:37 Nay, in all these things we are more than conquerors through him that loved us.

Many will twist and turn but can't get around it, why? I don't for the life of me know.

We prove we do love Him supremely IF we keep His commandments.

That is proof of our relationship with, for and of Him.

You are complete in Him when you obey Him.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

Yes you can know my sufficiency is in Christ alone

[Robert]

Quote:

You are complete in Him when you obey Him.

Romans 5:17 If, because of the one man's trespass, death exercised dominion through that one, much more surely will those who receive the abundance of grace and the free gift of righteousness exercise dominion in life through the one man, Jesus Christ. Therefore just as one man's trespass led to condemnation for all, so one man's act of righteousness leads to justification and life for all.

Rom 4:1 What then are we to say was gained by Abraham, our ancestor according to the flesh? 2 For if Abraham was justified by works, he has something to boast about, but not before God. 3 For what does the scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was reckoned to him as righteousness." 4 Now to one who works, wages are not reckoned as a gift but as something due...

Gibs, you are fundamentally a Roman Catholic at heart. You are a 7th Adventist, Catholic!

[Guest]

Heresy!

That would mean that I am justified by Christ IF I obey.

...But not a very effective one. Not here anyway. You need to be preaching this stuff to people who don't know anything about the Bible. It probably sounds good to the clueless. But SDA's for the most part, know better, and don't buy this nonsense. The Bible is just too plain about it.

Everything you say can be soundly refuted from scripture. And there is nothing Satan would like better than to have knowledgeable SDA's waste their valuable time doing that. I'm not going to, but I will leave you with a verse. Might as well at this point.

Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Why do you think Jesus used the word If ? Do you know what the word "if" means? It means it's conditional.

If you say you won't obey, then there is nothing else Jesus can do for you really. Unless you change your mind.

Rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft. 1Sam 15:23

[JoeMo]

Wow! It's amazing that people can get so crazy and angry and condemning in just 24 hours. This topic has evolved (or devolved) into another "endless "saved by grace" or "saved by law " debate that no one will ever win. If this wasn't Robert's topic, I'd say

But I won't say that, since it's not my topic.

Anyways GIBS,

way back on page 1, you responded to me with your post #574117 by saying

" I think you are forgetting faith and love will do the works of faith and love, willingly and loving to do it." Actually , I'm not forgetting it; I agree that we should willingly and lovingly (and I will add unconsciously) do it. All I'm saying is that we keep it as a RESULT of our salvation by the power of the indwelling Spirit of God; not as a PREREQUISITE for salvation in order to earn heaven. There is no way we can earn heaven. Eternal life is a GIFT - not a WAGE. If we want to talk about the WAGE we earn, it is called DEATH; and it is the WAGES for our sins. A GIFT is not earned; it is unmerited favor. The correct response to an expensive (in this case unmeasurably expensive) gift is love. I won't quote it to you, because you are already aware of it - read 1 Corinthians 13 again. If God is love as 1 John says, substitute the word "God" for the word "love" in 1 Cor. 13. This is how God is.

You say/ask "Just as you love your wife and children you do all you can for them and no doubt lay down your life for them. Would you not do as much or more for Jesus, He is really first and best is He not?" I answer YES! ABSOLUTELY - not out of any conscious obligation; but out of unconscious love and devotion. I don't do it because I must do so to earn their love and respect; I do so because I already have it!

Now - as part of my continued rant - one commandment given to us that we all seem to have a problem with is "And be ye kind one to another, tenderhearted, forgiving one another, even as God for Christ's sake hath forgiven you." (Eph. 4:32) It continues to amaze me how unkind we can be to one another here - whether conservative or liberal! We as Christians are supposed to be known for our love (agape?) for one another. I sure ain't seeing that on this thread. One of you quoted above about the "cloud of witnesses" that we are surrounded by. Let's remember that some of those witnesses are not Christian; and when we shoot each other in these duels of words, we're not exactly wooing non-believers into our fold. So - PLEASE read the top of every page on CA where it says:

"Welcome with open arms fellow believers [and I add non-believers] who don’t see things the way you do. And don’t jump all over them every time they do or say something you don’t agree with – even when it seems that they are strong on opinions but weak in the faith department. Remember, they have their own history to deal with. Treat them gently. (Romans 14.1).

<End of rant>

[Guest]

Pretty good rant there JoeMo. I can respect it.

[Gibs]

Well JoeMo I can see you and many are full indoctrinated into a belief I must witness against. In doing a come back to me don't you realize you are witnessing against what I find to be the truth of the matter. But have I ever come back to any or you with a show of indignation? If any feel so it is purely unintentional I assure you.

I try to show from scripture and the SOP the solid reasons for what I present. I do find my reasons are just that, solid.

I've made my points to you and Robert and many have read all the combacks and many have made decisions one way or the other and I pray for the right.

One thing I want to bring out here now is this. Whenever we witness it is of dire importance that it is the truth as He would have His Word to present. If it is not, it would have been better to have not said anything.

In saying that I feel you and Robert are sincere in your belief, but I cannot agree.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[JoeMo]

Gibs,

My "rant" was not a rifle shot at you. It was a shotgun blast at those who would personally attack those on CA who disagree with others in any given thread. In general, I find you to be fairly considerate. I should have posted my "rant in a separate post. I apologize once again for including my rant against personally attacking others in the same post I used to respond to your post.

Yes, I do realize I am witnessing against what you personally find to be the truth of the matter. I respectfully submit that your revelation is not necessarily my revelation. I also respectfully submit that you are, in the above post, witnessing against what I find to be truth. That's OK; at least you say it without a personal attack against me. As I have said before, I respect and honor your consistency and persistence. At the same time, I admit to you that I disagree with your theology, although I do not condemn it.

[Gail]

If there was no heaven to gain, would you still live for Christ?

[Robert]

If there was no heaven to gain, would you still live for Christ?

"To engage in His service merely for hope of reward ... would avail nothing. Open apostasy would not be more offensive to God than hypocrisy and mere formal worship." [PP 523]

[Robert]

Joh 15:10 If ye keep my commandments, ye shall abide in my love; even as I have kept my Father's commandments, and abide in his love.

Who told you that you were "keeping the commandments"? This is Laodicea's problem in a nutshell:

Rev 3:7 You say, ‘I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked....

We may have flattered ourselves, as did Nicodemus, that our life has been upright, that our moral character is correct, and think that we need not humble the heart before God, like the common sinner: but when the light from Christ shines into our souls, we shall see how impure we are; we shall discern the selfishness of motive, the enmity against God, that has defiled every act of life. [sC 28]

Now, to your out of context quote:

"I am the true vine, and my Father is the vinegrower. 2 He removes every branch in me that bears no fruit. Every branch that bears fruit he prunes to make it bear more fruit. 3 You have already been cleansed by the word that I have spoken to you. (NRV) And the NIV: "You are already clean because of the word I have spoken to you"

Note, Jesus doesn't say you are clean if you obey Me. Those who preach this message are in Satan's camp.

4 Abide in me as I abide in you. Just as the branch cannot bear fruit by itself unless it abides in the vine, neither can you unless you abide in me. 5 I am the vine, you are the branches. Those who abide in me and I in them bear much fruit, because apart from me you can do nothing.

Here's the thing: if you don't accept that "in Christ" you are already accepted and stand perfect in Him then you aren't "abiding" (resting) in His completed work of redemption. Hence all the works you do will be works of iniquity, which will condemn you in the judgment. Such works are the flesh trying to act good for a reward. It's pride, which is nauseating to Christ.

10 If you keep my commandments, you will abide (rest) in my love, just as I have kept my Father's commandments and abide (rest) in his love. 11 I have said these things to you so that my joy may be in you, and that your joy may be complete. 12 "This is my commandment, that you love one another as I have loved you.

So the commandments, to Christ, was to agape one another. That's the aim, not prerequisite! If you are resting in Christ's completed work then there will be genuine fruit that is in harmony with the last six commandments of the moral law.

But then Christ reminds us that even here we fall short:

13 No one has greater love than this, to lay down one's life for one's friends.

That's the best, it seems, that a believer can do resting in Christ's finished work. Although the last generation on earth "loved not their lives even unto death"

You see Christ died not for His friends, but at the hands of His own people - His enemies. Let's read this:

Rom 5:7 Indeed, rarely will anyone die for a just person—though perhaps for a good person someone might actually dare to die. 8 But God proves his love for us in that while we still were sinners Christ died for us. ...10 while we were enemies....

So while Christ does want us to "love one another" He also realizes that our love falls short of the glory of God.

[Robert]

Quote:

Why do you think Jesus used the word If ? Do you know what the word "if" means? It means it's conditional.

Well, like I already pointed out, you have to read the context because the "if" really revolves around are you resting (abiding) in His finished work? (See Heb 4) "If" you aren't then the fruit you bear will be works of iniquity. These works are legalistic attempts at gaining salvation.

Turn to Matt 7:22

Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not preached in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works (works of the law)? 23 And then will I profess unto them , I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Again, what are works of iniquity? Self-righteous acts (i.e., works motivated by self-love). All Christians must consider this text seriously. Do our works originate from Christ and therefore motivated by agape, or are they the “fair shew in the flesh” [Galatians 6:12]? Are our works the result of a genuine relationship with Christ (i.e, works of faith) or are we working in His name but we really don’t know Him (works of the law)?

Verse 24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock (Christ's righteousness): 25 And the rain descended , and the floods came , and the winds blew , and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock. 26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand (works of the law): 27 And the rain descended , and the floods came , and the winds blew , and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock

[Robert]

On Christ the Solid Rock

[Robert]

But I prefer this one:

My Hope is Built

[Gibs]

We are with you there Robert, He is our all in all and the only way a man can be saved is by Him.

We are Blessed of God for such a wonderful unspeakable gift we don't deserve.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[JoeMo]

Good question, Gail. Because of the manifestations He has allowed me to witness and participate in, I would say yes at this point in my life. But if there was no heaven to gain (or hell to fear, I'm assuming), I don't know if I would have ever become a Christian. Sad to say, I doubt that I would have - I was having too much fun sinning. Just being honest ...