Romans 7

[12tribes]

Does Romans 7 speak about a person in the converted state or unconverted?

[12tribes]

Please vote and write a comment as to who is the person in Romans 7.

[Gibs]

David had the same groanings and I do too as I was a bad one. yes I am converted and forgiven, I don' have any doubt of that, but our sin is ever before us in this life to cause us to continue to hate the old way. I and David and many more will have Paul move over on that bench, "chief of sinners"

Paul was an Apostle at that time and nothing in text states he was telling of himself before repentance and conversion. That happened on the road to Damacus.

I know some believe different but I know what he is saying as it is the same with me.

Oh wretched man that I am. I am sorely grieved of the things I've done.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

Does Romans 7 speak about a person in the converted state or unconverted?

Definitely converted, but the man of Romans 7 is trying to use his converted will power to say no to the sin nature and therefore, as far as his Christian experience goes, he is meeting with defeat.

[12tribes]

I think it is talking about Paul as a Pharisee before his conversion to Christ. It is not referring to someone that does not know God or has no desire to follow God but, a person who loves God and is thinking he is OK when he is not. When he understands the truth he sees his true condition and realizes the answer.

[Robert]

I think it is talking about Paul as a Pharisee before his conversion to Christ.

Here's Paul (Saul) as a Pharisee:

Phil 3:5...concerning the law, a Pharisee; 6 concerning zeal, persecuting the church; concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

So as a Pharisee, Paul viewed his law righteousness as blameless.

Now look after conversion:

Phil 3:8... "for whom I have suffered the loss of all things (he is referring to verses 4-6), and do count them but dung"

Why did the converted Paul count his attainments (even his law keeping) as dung? Because he had been converted and as a converted Christian we should never say "I have attained" or that "I am blameless" before God's law.

Now keep this in mind as we go to Romans 7:9

"Once I was alive apart from law."

Does Paul mean there was a time in his life that he didn't have the law? No! As a Pharisee the law was ever before him. Then what does this phrase mean? He meant that there was a time (as a Pharisee) that he considered himself "alive" because of his blameless obedience to the law. Remember the law says, "obey and live". Here's EGW for evidence:

"God’s law is the rule of His government. He says, 'This do, and thou shalt live'" Hence the terms of the law "were, Obey and live."

Since, as a Pharisee, Paul viewed himself as "blameless" before God's law he naturally thought that the law awarded him life (eternal life) because he had obeyed it perfectly.

What happened to change his mind? Conversion, but specifically the 10th commandment (see verse 7).

You see outwardly Paul - as a Pharisee - kept the law, but now (through the 10th commandment) he realized that the law also looked at his motive because coveting is not a act, but a thought - a cherished desire.

When he realized that the law even demanded that his thoughts be perfect, he cried out "the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought about my death." (verse 10)

No longer did he look at himself a "blameless" before God's law. So Romans 7 can't be Paul as a Pharisee.

[Robert]

Great, then we all agree....

[12tribes]

Romans 7:5-6

(5) For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

(6) But now we are delivered from the law, that being dead wherein we were held; that we should serve in newness of spirit, and not in the oldness of the letter.

Paul in previous chapters is explaining about justification by works vs justification by faith, these verses tell about serving in newness of spirit not in oldness of letter. Paul's life as a pharisee lived by the teaching of justification by works and these verses explain the difference.

So Romans 7 is not talking about a person of the world with no desire to serve God but, someone who thinks they serve God and is deceived into thinking he is OK when he is not.

[Robert]

Romans 7:5-6

So Romans 7 is not talking about a person of the world with no desire to serve God....

And you conclude this from just verses 5 thru 6? That's ignoring everything else said after your two verses.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: 12tribes

I think it is talking about Paul as a Pharisee before his conversion to Christ.

Here's Paul (Saul) as a Pharisee:

Phil 3:5...concerning the law, a Pharisee; 6 concerning zeal, persecuting the church; concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless.

So as a Pharisee, Paul viewed his law righteousness as blameless.

Now look after conversion:

Phil 3:8... "for whom I have suffered the loss of all things (he is referring to verses 4-6), and do count them but dung"

Why did the converted Paul count his attainments (even his law keeping) as dung? Because he had been converted and as a converted Christian we should never say "I have attained" or that "I am blameless" before God's law.

Now keep this in mind as we go to Romans 7:9

"Once I was alive apart from law."

Does Paul mean there was a time in his life that he didn't have the law? No! As a Pharisee the law was ever before him. Then what does this phrase mean? He meant that there was a time (as a Pharisee) that he considered himself "alive" because of his blameless obedience to the law. Remember the law says, "obey and live". Here's EGW for evidence:

"God’s law is the rule of His government. He says, 'This do, and thou shalt live'" Hence the terms of the law "were, Obey and live."

Since, as a Pharisee, Paul viewed himself as "blameless" before God's law he naturally thought that the law awarded him life (eternal life) because he had obeyed it perfectly.

What happened to change his mind? Conversion, but specifically the 10th commandment (see verse 7).

You see outwardly Paul - as a Pharisee - kept the law, but now (through the 10th commandment) he realized that the law also looked at his motive because coveting is not a act, but a thought - a cherished desire.

When he realized that the law even demanded that his thoughts be perfect, he cried out "the very commandment that was intended to bring life actually brought about my death." (verse 10)

No longer did he look at himself a "blameless" before God's law. So Romans 7 can't be Paul as a Pharisee.

Here's Ellen White on this same subject (just to show you what we agree)

"Paul says that as ‘touching the righteousness which is in the law’—as far as outward acts were concerned—he was ‘blameless’ (Philippians 3:6); but when the spiritual character of the law was discerned, he saw himself a sinner. Judged by the letter of the law as men apply it to the outward life, he had abstained from sin; but when he looked into the depths of its holy precepts, and saw himself as God saw him, he bowed in humiliation and confessed his guilt. He says, ‘I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.’ Romans 7:9. When he saw the spiritual nature of the law, sin appeared in its true hideousness, and his self-esteem was gone." Steps to Christ, 29, 30.

A Pharisee would never admit that "he saw himself as a sinner" and then "confess his guilt"! This is the mark of convicted, saved man.

[skyblue888]

I think it is talking about Paul as a Pharisee before his conversion to Christ. It is not referring to someone that does not know God or has no desire to follow God but, a person who loves God and is thinking he is OK when he is not. When he understands the truth he sees his true condition and realizes the answer.

Right on. The Testimonies uphold this view and so did Waggoner and Jones.

sky

[Robert]

The Testimonies uphold this view and so did Waggoner and Jones. sky

You'll have to prove this.

[skyblue888]

The man of Romans 7 is a church-going individual, a member of the church even in good standing and may have been for years like Nicodemus in the days of Christ.

In Testimonies to Ministers, pp.369,367, we are told that the words of Jesus to Nicodemus "Ye must be born again" also apply to presidents of our conferences, elders, and to many who occupy important positions in the church.

But the man of Romans 6 and 8 is born again and yet that man has more struggles than the man of Romans 7 because now the enemy is on his track more than ever before for the simple reason that he is overcoming now through the merits of Christ. But that doesn't mean that he cannot fall. He still has free will.

The aim of the Gospel of Christ is that we shall come to the place where we shall reflect Him fully, where sin has no more dominion over us, plain and simple. Before Christ appears in the clouds of heaven God will have a people on earth, in every nation, who will be "more than conquerors" in their battle with evil. (Romans 8:37)

There are several statements from the pen of inspiration which tell us clearly that the man of Romans 7 is not a born-again individual. Here are two of them both as a direct commentary upon the experience described by Paul in Romans 7:

"It is not enough to perceive the loving-kindness of God, to see the benevolence, the fatherly tenderness of His character. It is not enough to discern the wisdom and justice of His law, to see that it is founded upon the eternal principle of love. Paul the apostle saw all this when he exclaimed, "I consent unto the law that it is good' 'The law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.' But he added, in the bitterness of his soul-anguish and despair, 'I am carnal, sold under sin.' Romans 7:16,12,14. He longed for the purity, the righteousness, to which in himself he was powerless to attain, and cried out, 'O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from this body of death?' Romans 7:24. Such is the cry that has gone up from burdened hearts in all lands and in all ages. To all, there is but one answer, 'Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.'" (John 1:29) Steps to Christ,19.

"Education, culture, the exercise of the will, human effort, all have their proper sphere, but here they are powerless. They may produce an outward correctness of behavior, but they cannot change the heart; they cannot purify the springs of life. There must be a power working from within, a new life from above, before man can be changed from sin to holiness. That power is Christ. His grace alone can quicken the lifeless faculties of the soul, and attract it to God, to holiness." Ibid, p.18.

Both of these statements are a description of the experience of the man of Romans 7 before he finds deliverance in Christ by trusting wholly in the merits of His infinite sacrifice.

sky

[skyblue888]

You will find similar commentaries about the experience of the man of Romans 7 in The Great Controversy, p.461, in The Desire of Ages, p.203, and in Christ's Object Lessons, p.96.

"There are many who realize their helplessness, and who long for that spiritual life which will bring them into harmony with God; they are vainly striving to obtain it. In despair they cry, 'O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from this body of death?' Rom.7:24." Desire of Ages, p.203.

To all these there is but one answer: Behold the uplifted Saviour and accept His all-sufficient merits which it is your privilege to claim and the Holy Spirit shall be given you to subdue all your inherited and cultivated tendencies to evil and to impress Christ's character upon you.

The believing, repentant sinner must do this daily.

Here is the testimony of one who was taught at the school of Christ in regard to Romans 7:

"In the latter part of the chapter, the apostle shows what that oldness of the letter is from which we must be delivered. 'I am carnal, sold under sin.' We do great violence to the apostle Paul, that holy man, when we say that in this he is relating his own Christian experience. He is not writing his own experience now that he is united with Christ. He is writing the experience of those who serve, but in the oldness of the letter, and while professedly serving God, are carnal, and sold under sin.

A person sold under bondage is a slave. What is the evidence of this slavery? 'For what I would, that do I not; but what I hate, that do I... For the good that I would, I do not; but the evil which I would not, that I do.' Have we ever had any such experience as that in our so-called Christian experience? Yes; we have fought, but with all our fighting, did we keep the law? No, we have made a failure, and it is written upon every page of our lives. It is a constant service, but at the same time it is a constant failure.

I fall. I make a new resolution,--I break it, and then I get discouraged, then make a new resolution, and break it again. We cannot make ourselves do the thing we want to do by making a resolution. We do not want to sin, but we do sin all the time. We make up our minds we will not fall under that temptation again, and we don't--till the next time it comes up, and then we fall as before.

When in this condition, can we say that we have hope, and that we 'rejoice in hope of the glory of God'? We do not hear such testimonies,--it is solely of what we want to do, and what we have failed to do, but intend to do in the future. If a person has the law before him, and acknowledges that it is good, and yet does not keep its precepts, is his sin less in the sight of God than the sin of the man who cares nothing for the law? No.

What is the difference between the would-be Christian, who knows the law, but does not keep it, and the worldling who does not keep the law, and does not acknowledge that it is good? Simply this: We are unwilling slaves, and they are willing slaves. We are all the time distracted and sorrowful, and getting nothing out of life at all, while the worldling does not worry himself in the least.

If one is going to sin, is it not better to be the worldling, who does not know that there is such a thing as liberty, than to be the man who knows that there is liberty, but cannot get it? If it has got to be slavery, if we must live in the sins of the world, then it is better to be in the world, partaking of its pleasures, than to be in a miserable bondage, and have no hope of a life to come." E.G. Waggoner, Bible Studies on the Book of Romans, p.53,54.

sky

[Robert]

Ellen White is not a Bible commentator. She spiritualizes statements to use in her writing, but not necessarily in the context from which they are lifted. She always told us to go the the Bible. So let's do that, okay?

"There is no excuse for anyone in taking the position that there is no more truth to be revealed, and that all our expositions of Scripture are without error. The fact that certain doctrines have been held as truth for many years by our people is not a proof that our ideas are infallible. Age will not make an error into truth, and truth can afford to be fair. No true doctrine will lose anything by close investigation. Review and Herald, December 20,1892

"We cannot hold that a position once taken, an idea once advocated, is not, under any circumstances, to be relinquished. There is but One who is infallible --- He is the way, the truth, and the life.

"The Bible and the Bible alone, is our creed, the sole bond of union; all who bow to this holy Word will be in harmony . . . Man is fallible, but God's Word is infallible.

"Our position and faith is in the Bible. . . . And never do we want any soul to bring in the Testimonies ahead of the Bible." Evangelism, p. 256

[Gibs]

Where is the text in Romans seven that Paul is telling us this is him before conversion. There is none. So believe what you may, it is not a salvation issue and is not worth a big fight over.

David felt the same way as Paul I am sure and as a very loathful sinner before conversion, I still feel the same way. Like David my sin is ever before me. I groan in realizing of them yet, yes I realize I am saved as unworthy as I am. I am not saved because I'm worthy, none of us are.

I realize "oh wretched man that I am!" I could never be a Pharisee.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[12tribes]

Romans 7:9-14

(9) For I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.

(10) And the commandment, which was ordained to life, I found to be unto death.

(11) For sin, taking occasion by the commandment, deceived me, and by it slew me.

(12) Wherefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good.

(13) Was then that which is good made death unto me? God forbid. But sin, that it might appear sin, working death in me by that which is good; that sin by the commandment might become exceeding sinful.

(14) For we know that the law is spiritual: but I am carnal, sold under sin.

We must remember that Paul is speaking to people that know the Law as mentioned in verse 1. Paul was alive without the Law but when he understood about the spirituality of the Law (v14) sin revived and he died. Because he is speaking to people that know the Law then he is speaking about justification by works vs justification by faith as mentioned in previous chapters.

Romans 3:20-22

(20) Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

(21) But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

(22) Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Romans 4:2

(2) For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

Romans 5:1

(1) Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

[Gibs]

Yes, Paul went on a lot about the whole spectrum, he taught the complete picture and that is what we want to receive from him, not just what we want.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

Where is the text in Romans seven that Paul is telling us this is him before conversion. There is none. So believe what you may, it is not a salvation issue and is not worth a big fight over.

It's very important to our salvation. I'll tell you why - here's his concluding remarks:

Romans 7:24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

What Paul is saying is that this man is a slave to God in his mind, but when the rubber meets the road he ends up serving the flesh. Keep in mind this is in the context of the 10th commandment.

This is about a man who was satisfied with his law keeping until he realized the law requires perfect thoughts. That's because coveting isn't an action it's a cherished desire.

Within this context the man of Romans 7 is failing to live the Christian life. Do you guys have perfect motives and thoughts behind everything you do? I don't...because I am imperfect.

So the question is do imperfect believers have a chance at heaven due to besetting sins?

If that's not a salvation issue I don't know what is....

So after the man of Romans 7 says, "I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin", the very next verse is Romans 8:1. What does that say?

Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus...

Keep in mind we are "in Christ" by faith. Did the man of Romans 7 claim Christ? Yes: "Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord!"

So, even though he is failing to keep the spiritual claims of the law, "there is no condemnation"! Why? Because "in Christ" he is perfect!

If not, then we must be perfect as God is perfect. That's legalism.

So yes, it has everything to do with our salvation.

[Gibs]

Robert, I don't think any will change their view of the matter and this argument came up on another site and I see as Paul does and he saw himself as I see myself. I'm dropping it.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

Robert, I don't think any will change their view...

Too bad, because the opposite of Paul's view in Romans 7/8 is that you must perfect. Clearly, that's not true, because "in Christ" there's no condemnation to the believer that's struggling with sin and failing....I'm not talking about condoning sin because then there's no struggle.

[12tribes]

It is about jvstification by works vs justification by faith

[Gerr]

I think it is talking about Paul as a Pharisee before his conversion to Christ. It is not referring to someone that does not know God or has no desire to follow God but, a person who loves God and is thinking he is OK when he is not. When he understands the truth he sees his true condition and realizes the answer.

I just want to add this. Think about the parable of the sower in Mt 13. The seed that fell on rocky soil germinated quickly. But was shortly scorched by the sun because there was no depth to the soil. The man of Rom 7 may delight in God's law, but so does the rocky soil hearers, or like the Pharisee who goes to the Temple to pray, or the man that hears the word but builds his house on the sand anyway.

[skyblue888]

I just want to add this. Think about the parable of the sower in Mt 13. The seed that fell on rocky soil germinated quickly. But was shortly scorched by the sun because there was no depth to the soil. The man of Rom 7 may delight in God's law, but so does the rocky soil hearers, or like the Pharisee who goes to the Temple to pray, or the man that hears the word but builds his house on the sand anyway.

Gerry Cabalo

____________________

Good point Gerry. What you said is in harmony with what the Testimonies have to say about Romans 7 and with what Waggoner and Jones taught.

Now let us hear from A.T. Jones on Romans 7, from a lecture he gave at the 1893 General Conference Session:

"The man who finds that hatred of evil, that desire for something better, that will to do good, is that the doing of good? (Congregation: 'No.') Can he do the good that he is drawn to, by that impulse? (Congregation: 'No.')

"For what I would, that I do not." What would he do? (Congregation: 'Good.') What did he do? (Congregation: 'Wrong.') "But what I hate, that do I." Romans 7:15. What did he hate? Sin. He hated the evil, the wrong, the bad. But what did he do? The evil. He did the evil, he did the wrong, he did the bad.

Then how much good does the natural man do? None. Although he hates the bad, how much good does he do? None. He would do the good; but how much of the good that he would does he actually do? None. Now is that so? (Congregation: 'Yes.') It is so; for the Bible says so. Then what in the world is the use of anybody's talking about the heathen doing good, or even a Jew doing good, or any man doing good, who has only the natural mind? This is not saying anything as to what he knows; that is not saying whether he has impulses to good or not; that is not the question. He had these impulses all the time, didn't he? He had the knowledge of good, so much that he hated the bad things that he was doing.

Now think of that. There was the natural man; there was a man like you and I and every other man born into this world. He had impulses to do good; he had the knowledge of good; he hated the evil; but what did he do? No what did he think? Not what did he know? But what did he do? He did the evil. It is not a question of what he knew. Did he do anything else than evil? No. He knew something else, he knew better, didn't he? (Congregation: 'Yes, sir.') Then let us not pass off our right knowing, for right doing. Let us not pass off our right knowledge for right deeds. Knowledge of right is not doing right. So he did not do any good. What is that? It is you and I--the natural man. Is that I? Yes. Without the mind of Christ itself is that I? yes. Then though I profess to believe in Christ, if the mind of Christ itself is not there, is that I? Yes. Is it you? (Congregation: 'Yes sir.') All right, then, let us go together.

"If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law that it is good. Now then it is no more I that do it." verse 16. I said that I would not do it. I said that I hated it, and declared that I would never do it again. But I did do it. Then when I hated it, and resolved and re-resolved, and determined that I would never do it again, and yet did it, what in the world was the matter with me? I had the knowledge, but did not have the power. Now the Gospel of Christ, 'which is Christ in you,' that is power; it is the power of God to every one that believeth.

Well then, the natural man is not free, is he? (Congregation: 'No, sir.') He cannot live up to his own standard." A.T. Jones, 1893 General Conference Bulletin,258,259.

to be continued

sky

[12tribes]

Originally Posted By: 12tribes

I think it is talking about Paul as a Pharisee before his conversion to Christ. It is not referring to someone that does not know God or has no desire to follow God but, a person who loves God and is thinking he is OK when he is not. When he understands the truth he sees his true condition and realizes the answer.

I just want to add this. Think about the parable of the sower in Mt 13. The seed that fell on rocky soil germinated quickly. But was shortly scorched by the sun because there was no depth to the soil. The man of Rom 7 may delight in God's law, but so does the rocky soil hearers, or like the Pharisee who goes to the Temple to pray, or the man that hears the word but builds his house on the sand anyway.