Romans 7

[Robert]

So no matter how spiritually mature you think you are, in the eyes of God's law you are still a sinner. Only "in Christ" are you perfect in obedience & justice.

Some will reject this notion. That's why Paul goes on to expound on Romans 7:7-24.

Keep this in mind Gerry:

"What greater deception can come upon human minds than a confidence that they are right when they are all wrong! The message of the True Witness (to the Laodiceans) finds the people of God (SDA) in a sad deception, yet honest in that deception. They know not that their condition is deplorable in the sight of God. While those addressed are flattering themselves that they are in an exalted spiritual condition, the message of the True Witness breaks their security by the startling denunciation of their true condition."Testimonies for the Church 3:252-258.

[12tribes]

Romans 3:20-22

(20) Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

(21) But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

(22) Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

Romans 4:2

(2) For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.

Romans 5:1

(1) Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ:

[BobRyan]

But if you are still willfully obeying what sin tells you to do, you are really not dead! Therefore still married or bound by the law. A dead person can no longer be told what to do!!!

.

In Romans 6 we die to sin with Christ, and are raised with Him in baptism to walk in newness of life freed from slavery to sinning.

In Romans 7 we die in Christ to fulfill the demands of the Law that has us under condemnation. Condemned to die the 2nd death - the lake of fire - suffering and torment for our sins. We are bound to that law and to that condemnation until we either go to the lake of fire and die - or we accept the Gospel and die in Christ.

Your response above appears to be directed at the Romans 6 context - not specific to the Romans 7 point being made.

in Christ,

Bob

[Robert]

In Romans 6 we die to sin with Christ, and are raised with Him in baptism to walk in newness of life freed from slavery to sinning.

Good, then you aren't sinning. You are completely dead to sin and you are walking just as Christ walked.

Then Romans 7 isn't for you as an upstanding member of the Laodicean Church. You are "rich and increased with goods and in need of nothing". You have arrived - Congratulations!

Now, for you sinners who are struggling with sin, let's continue. Those who have arrived you aren't needed here. Go somewhere else and write your essays on perfection.

Thanks,

Rob

[Robert]

Paul says that as “touching the righteousness which is in the law”—as far as outward acts were concerned—he was “blameless” (Philippians 3:6); but when the spiritual character of the law was discerned, he saw himself a sinner.

[Robert]

But now back to Romans 7:7

You see Paul will use the 10th commandment to prove the spirituality of the law. Why? Because coveting is not an act, but a desire of the mind & heart. Hence the law requires your thoughts to be perfect & your motives to be pure.

verse 7

"What shall we say then ? Is the Law sin ? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law"

Why did Paul ask this question?

Because in verse 6 he said that we had to be delivered from under the law.

Is the law bad? No, may it never be. The law is good...it's holy, but we are sinners and to be under the law means we must die. That's bad. So the law points us to Christ that we might become justified by faith (see Gal 3:24)

"for I (Paul) would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET."

When you read the law,

"Honor your father and your mother"

"You shall not murder"

"You shall not commit adultery"

"You shall not steal"

"You shall not bear false witness"

these sins are outward...they involve action.

But coveting is not an action - it's a thought - a desire of the heart & mind.

[Robert]

...coveting is not an action - it's a thought - a desire of the heart & mind.

verse 8

But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind ; for apart from the Law sin is dead.

Let's take that last sentence first:

"for apart from the Law sin is dead"

Was Paul, as a Pharisee, ever without the law?

No! From their earliest age they were constantly studying the law. So Paul was never without the law.

Then what does Paul mean?

Let's look at verse 8 again:

"But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind ; for apart from the Law sin is dead."

Keep in mind that "sin' is a deceiver. Paul's own nature (as a Pharisee) had deceived him into thinking that he was keeping the law. Nevertheless what Paul was keeping was the outward observances of the law only.

When God revealed to Paul the spirit of the law, suddenly his sins at the thought level were exposed.

[Robert]

When God revealed to Paul the spirit of the law, suddenly his sins at the thought level were exposed.

Romans 7:9 "I was once alive apart from the Law (as far as his outward actions went) but when the commandment came (i.e., a understanding of the 10th commandment), sin became alive and I died"

In other words now Paul realized he was a sinner....

10 and this commandment (the 10th), which was to result in life (obey & live), proved to result in death for me (disobey & die);

You see as a Pharisee eternal life was only given to those who obeyed the law. So this law, which Paul thought to bring life, actually brought condemnation. Why?

11 for sin (i.e., Paul own sin nature), taking an opportunity through the commandment (i.e., taking advantage of Paul's ignorance as a Pharisee), deceived me and through it killed me.

Sin destroys and the law demands eternal death to the sinner. The law wants to keep sin in the grave where it belongs!

Hence, verse 12

"the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good."

Nothing wrong with the law. God never did away with the law. It is the measuring stick of righteousness.

[Robert]

Verse 13 Therefore did that which is good (the law) become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful.

You see the law doesn't kill you....Sin kills. The law demands that when death occurs that it is permanent. Hence the 2nd death - which is goodbye to life forever! No more sin ever again. That's God abandonment.

1 Cor 15:56 The sting of death is sin, and the power of sin is the law....

Now I've tried to explain verse 13, but I must admit parts of it are tough to completely understand.

But I do understand the last sentence:

"Through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful"

Notice it doesn't say, "through the commandments"!

No, Paul is talking about the 10th commandment - "you shall not covet". Through this commandment we understand that sin is more then just an outward action. It's also a cherished desire of the mind & heart.

So within the context (the spirituality of the law) we must continue on with Romans 7:14-25

Before I do this, let me take just a minute to look at verse 15:

"For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do"

Now, given the context so far, is Paul talking about outward performance? NO!!! He is talking about keeping the spirit of the law.

Paul isn't saying I saw a young women in a bar and I just couldn't help myself so I had sex with her.

No, that's not what he is saying. He's saying at the thought level, I'm sinning even though I didn't do the physical act.

Now this is just an example...I don't know what sin Paul had in mind.

Now, we can start with Romans 7:14

[Robert]

No, that's not what he is saying. He's saying at the thought level, I'm sinning even though I didn't do the physical act.

Now, we can start with Romans 7:14

verse 14

We know that the law is spiritual; but I am unspiritual, sold as a slave to sin.

Again, sin isn't just outward actions....

Go to 1 cor 13:3

"If I give all I possess to the poor a...but have not (agape), it (the outward act) is meaningless."

Why?

Verse 5

It (agape love) is not self-seeking!

Keep in mind that Paul says "love (agape) is the fulfillment of the law". It takes agape love to keep the law.

So outwardly, if I (Robert) give away all my possessions, what will folks think?

Something like this: Man alive...I tell you, that Rob guy is a righteous dude!!! I mean if ever a man was going to heaven it's that Rob guy.

But let's look at what Rob's thinking in his mind & heart:

If I give all my possessions away I'll be loved by millions - I'll get my name in the news paper and even perhaps on CNN. I'll be popular and loved and probably be rewarded for my good behavior.

Is that agape? No, agape does good things outwardly without thinking of self at the level of the mind and heart.

Agape, is not self-seeking. It's a selfless love that wants nothing in return.

Here Paul is saying the man of Romans 7 is failing.

[Robert]

Agape, is not self-seeking. It's a selfless love that wants nothing in return.

Here Paul is saying the man of Romans 7 is failing.

Now, given the context, let's read his failures:

15 I do not understand what I do (at the thought level). For what I want to do I do not do, but what I hate I do. 16 And if I do what I do not want to do, I agree that the law is good. 17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my sinful nature. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out. 19 For what I do is not the good I want to do; no, the evil I do not want to do--this I keep on doing. 20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it. 21 So I find this law at work: When I want to do good, evil is right there with me.

22 For in my inner being (my inward man) I delight in God's law; 23 but I see another law at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin at work within my members. 24 What a wretched man I am! Who will rescue me from this body of death? 25 Thanks be to God--through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, I myself in my mind am a slave to God's law, but in the sinful nature a slave to the law of sin.

The question is, is there condemnation to the Christian who is not perfectly keeping the spirit of God's law?

No, there's no condemnation! Why? Romans 7:6

"But now, by dying to what once bound us (the law), we have been released from the law ..."

We have been released from the binding demands of the law, not to enjoy sin, but because no one is keeping the spirituality of the law perfect.

Hence, Paul is right:

Romans 3:23 "...For all have sinned (past tense) and fall short (present, continuous tense) of the glory of God (His agape love)."

Then how can we be perfect if we are failing?

1] We aren't under the law as a Christian. (BTW, this doesn't me we aren't growing and becoming more like Christ)

2] We are perfect "in Christ"

Romans 8:1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 because in Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set me free from the law of sin (the sin nature) and death."

[Robert]

Okay, I'm through.

Please think and pray about what I've said....I'm not going to argue with anyone. I sincerely believe this is truth.

I'm going to take a break from CA for a while.

Rob

[Gerr]

The question is, is there condemnation to the Christian who is not perfectly keeping the spirit of God's law?

No, there's no condemnation!

I agree that there is no condemnation for someone who is obeying but somehow falling short. The problem is that the man of Rom 7 is not only not perfectly keeping the law which ALL of us do (at least that's my experience), but that this man says, "For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is WHAT I KEEP DOING," 7:29. That is present active verb.

BTW, a condemned sinner CANNOT be "wretched" after he has been forgiven, released from condemnation, and at peace with God.

Quote:

"But now, by dying to what once bound us (the law), we have been released from the law ..."

We have been released from the binding demands of the law, not to enjoy sin, but because no one is keeping the spirituality of the law perfect.

By "released from the binding claims of the law," do you mean we are no longer to obey it?

[Gibs]

Even though I know I am forgiven and not condemned I still see myself as "oh wretched man that I am"

Am I condemned then because I see myself so. Did not the pubican see himself so. He called himself a sinner, was he moreso than the pharisee? Yes I am a forgiven sinner. Humility comes before repentance. My sin remains before me in this life, will be removed in the next.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gerr]

After being forgiven of a debt that one could never pay, after being redeemed from slavery, after being adopted as a child of the King of the universe, after passing from death to life, a person in this state still feels or considers himself wretched [wretched ■ adjective (wretcheder, wretchedest) 1 in a very unhappy or unfortunate state; miserable. COED]? What happened to the "Blessed are..." and the "Rejoice...."?

[Gibs]

What happened Gerry is your sin is still ever before you. David who killed to have another man's wife, that sin didn't get erased out of his mind in this life. Certainly one is happy and elated to know his sin is forgiven and he won't die the second eternal true death.

I, David and Paul and millions more will never be where we can but say in this life "oh wretched man that I am". Yes and you know just as Paul states we would go and do bad things yet, but as he has also revealed, our only hope is "Christ in You" the strength you don't have yourself to stay clear, but with Him within, we can come off more than conquerors.

Yes and this is the program He and the Father instituded that all us weaklings could have Christ within and then overcome as He did.

Re 3:21 To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

Notice above, "EVEN AS I OVERCAME"

We can only do that if we have the same power and Glory be it is ours, YES, Christ in you the hope of Glory.

That is our hope and strength, we are nothing against the Devil.

Question, Now does He expect us to be overcomers too? Yes, yes of course, that is the program!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Last part of verse 4:

"in order that we might bear fruit to God"

You see the law demands righteousness and since we have none the law demands our death.

So we want to get with the 2nd man because He doesn't condemn us every time we sin. Does that mean that in the 2nd marriage to Christ that we live for the flesh as a lifestyle? No, as we abide in Christ we "bear fruit to God". In other words we grow spiritually.

But if you are still willfully obeying what sin tells you to do, you are really not dead! Therefore still married or bound by the law. A dead person can no longer be told what to do!!!

Here is what Paul says that grace does:

ESV Titus 2:11-14 "For the grace has appeared, (1) bringing salvation for all people, (2) training us to renounce ungodliness and worldly passion [it teaches us to say 'No' to ungodliness & worldly passion - NIV, passion = lust - KJV] (3) to live self-controlled, upright, and godly lives in the present age, waiting for the blessed hope, the appearing of the glory of our gread God and Savior Jesus Christ, who gave himself for us (4) to redeem us from all lawlessness (5) and to PURIFY for himself a people for his own possession who (6) zealous for good works."

"But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the law," Gal 5:18. And one who is led by the Spirit "will NOT gratify the desires [lust - KJV] of the flesh," Gal 5:16.

How could the man of Rom 7 be led by the Spirit if, as Paul says, "For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I KEEP ON DOING [present tense, practised sin]," Rom 7:19.

Amen.

Right on!

sky

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: Robert

So what's the solution?

The solution was for God to put us (the woman) into Christ (the 2nd man) and then we (the woman) legally died so that the marriage to the law (which was for life) was no longer binding.

You cannot be dead if you "keep on doing" what your husband tells you to do. And if you are not dead, you are not free to marry another man!

Right on again.

sky

[Gibs]

Paul gave the solution for that weakness we all have, Remember it takes Christ in you and His Merits or we fail of ourselves!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[BobRyan]

But if you are still willfully obeying what sin tells you to do, you are really not dead! Therefore still married or bound by the law. A dead person can no longer be told what to do!!!

.

[BobRyan]

Gerry said to Robert -

By "released from the binding claims of the law," do you mean we are no longer to obey it?

Let's see what the Bible says -

- the saved person is under the New Covenant with the "Law written on the mind and on the heart" Hebrews 8, Jer 31:31-33. Thus as Paul says in Rom 3:31 "Do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW of God" Rom 3:31

For example --

1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God".

And in the chapter just before that Paul says to Christians that he is reproving for their sins -

1Cor 6

9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,

10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Which fits perfectly with Paul's letter to the Galatians.

Gal 5

16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.

17 For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.

18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.

19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,

20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,

21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Romans 6

10For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.

11Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,

13and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead,

13 -and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.

14For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!

16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?

Romans 8

12 So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh

13 for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

Rev 14:12 - the saints are those who "KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus"

1 John 2

1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;

James 2

8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF," you are doing well.

9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors.

10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.

11 For He who said, "DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY," also said, "DO NOT COMMIT MURDER." Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.

12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty

1John 2

The Test of Knowing Him

3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.

4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.

6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

John 14:15 "If you love Me KEEP My commandments"

John 15:14 "Love Me and KEEP My Commandments"

Taken right out of the Ten Commandments -- in this case commandment number 3.

========================

What is the unchanging status of the Law according to Paul in Romans 7?

Romans 7

7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not covet.”

...

10 and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me;

11 for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me.

12 So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

13 Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful.

14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.

[Gerr]

If you want to be wretched, that's your business, but I after what God has done for me, I choose to rejoice and feel blessed.

[Gibs]

Ps 22:6 But I am a worm, and no man; a reproach of men, and despised of the people.

Ps 22:7 All they that see me laugh me to scorn: they shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,

Ps 22:8 He trusted on the LORD that he would deliver him: let him deliver him, seeing he delighted in him.

Ps 22:9 But thou art he that took me out of the womb: thou didst make me hope when I was upon my mother's breasts.

Ps 22:10 I was cast upon thee from the womb: thou art my God from my mother's belly.

Ps 22:11 ¶ Be not far from me; for trouble is near; for there is none to help.

Ps 22:12 Many bulls have compassed me: strong bulls of Bashan have beset me round.

Ps 22:13 They gaped upon me with their mouths, as a ravening and a roaring lion.

Ps 22:14 I am poured out like water, and all my bones are out of joint: my heart is like wax; it is melted in the midst of my bowels.

Ps 22:15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd; and my tongue cleaveth to my jaws; and thou hast brought me into the dust of death.

Ps 22:16 For dogs have compassed me: the assembly of the wicked have inclosed me: they pierced my hands and my feet.

Ps 22:17 I may tell all my bones: they look and stare upon me.

Ps 22:18 They part my garments among them, and cast lots upon my vesture.

Ps 22:19 But be not thou far from me, O LORD: O my strength, haste thee to help me.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[12tribes]

I used to think that Romans 7 was a christian because he delights after the law, a person of the world does not delight after the law. When I studied Romans I seen it is speaking about justification by works vs justification by faith. A few years ago we had sabbath school lessons that went over the book of Romans

[skyblue888]

The man of Romans 7 is convinced that the law is just and holy and good. All of us who have become members of Laodicea have been convinced of that. But that is NOT enough to make one a Christian. The man of Romans 7 only knows defeat. He does what he hates, what he knows to be evil against his own will. He makes one resolution after another not to do the evil only to be defeated every time.

Is this describing the experience of the child of God? Was it the experience of Jesus of Nazareth who was also a man and had to live by faith as a man with the same flesh and blood that we have?

sky