Romans 7

[Q.E.D.]

Originally Posted By: RLH

Who told you that?

Here's one of the best commentaries on Romans:

"At the end of v 1 scribes added" who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.... [Word Biblical Commentary p 414]

And that's your proof or did you know the scribe?

Where's the beef. . .

Q.E.D.

[Guest]

Exactly Q.E.D.

I think you either accept the Bible as inspired by God, or you don't accept it. When people start offering Bible commentaries as proof of something biblical, they are off the track already, in my humble opinion.

I would never offer SDA Bible commentaries to anyone as proof of my beliefs.

[Q.E.D.]

The Heresies of WESTCOTT AND HORT

Brooke Foss Westcott (1825-1901) and Fenton John Anthony Hort (1828-1892) produced a Greek New Testament in 1881 based on the findings of Tischendorf. This Greek NT was the basis for the Revised Version of that same year. They also developed a theory of textual criticism which underlay their Greek NT and several other Greek NT since (such as the Nestle's text and the United Bible Society's text). Greek New Testaments such as these produced the modern English translations of the Bible we have today. So it is important for us to know the theory of Westcott and Hort as well as something of the two men who have so greatly influenced modern textual criticism.

In short, the Westcott and Hort theory states that the Bible is to be treated as any other book would be.

Westcott and Hort believed the Greek text which underlies the KJV was perverse and corrupt. Hort called the Textus Receptus vile and villainous (Life and Letters of Fenton John Anthony Hort, Vol. I, p.211).

If Westcott and Hort are the fathers of modern textual criticism and the restorers of the true text, should we not know something of their beliefs to see if they are consistent with Scripture? This would be harmonious with the teaching found in Matthew 7:17.

Here's what Westcott and Hort said about...

The Scriptures:

"I reject the word infallibility of Holy Scriptures overwhelmingly." (Westcott, The Life and Letters of Brook Foss Westcott, Vol. I, p.207).

"Our Bible as well as our Faith is a mere compromise." (Westcott, On the Canon of the New Testament, p. vii).

"Evangelicals seem to me perverted. . .There are, I fear, still more serious differences between us on the subject of authority, especially the authority of the Bible." (Hort, The Life and Letters of Fenton John Anthony Hort, Vol. I, p.400)

"Dr. Wilbur Pickering writes that, Hort did not hold to a high view of inspiration." (The Identity of the New Testament Text, p.212)

Perhaps this is why both the RV (which Westcott and Hort helped to translate) and the American edition of it, the ASV, translated 2nd Timothy 3:16 as, "Every scripture inspired of God" instead of "All scripture is given by inspiration of God" (KJV).

The Deity of Christ:

"He never speaks of Himself directly as God, but the aim of His revelation was to lead men to see God in Him." (Westcott, The Gospel According to St. John, p. 297).

"(John) does not expressly affirm the identification of the Word with Jesus Christ." (Westcott, Ibid., p. 16).

"(Rev. 3:15) might no doubt bear the Arian meaning, the first thing created." (Hort, Revelation, p.36).

Perhaps this is why their Greek text makes Jesus a created god (John 1:18) and their American translation had a footnote concerning John 9:38, "And he said, Lord I believe and he worshipped him," which said, "The Greek word denotes an act of reverence, whether paid to a creature, as here, or to the Creator" (thus calling Christ a creature).

Salvation:

"The thought (of John 10:29) is here traced back to its most absolute form as resting on the essential power of God in His relation of Universal Fatherhood." (Westcott, St. John, p. 159).

"I confess I have no repugnance to the primitive doctrine of a ransom paid to Satan. I can see no other possible form in which the doctrine of a ransom is at all tenable; anything is better than the doctrine of a ransom to the father." (Hort, The First Epistle of St. Peter 1:1-2:17, p. 77).

Perhaps this is why their Greek text adds to salvation in 1st Peter 2:2. And why their English version teaches universal salvation in Titus 2:11, "For the grace of God hath appeared, bringing salvation to all men" (ASV).

Hell:

"(Hell is) not the place of punishment of the guilty, (it is) the common abode of departed spirits." (Westcott, Historic Faith, pp.77-78).

"We have no sure knowledge of future punishment, and the word eternal has a far higher meaning." (Hort, Life and Letters, Vol. I, p.149).

Perhaps this is why their Greek text does not have Mark 9:44, and their English translation replaces "everlasting fire" [Matthew 18:8] with "eternal fire" and change the meaning of eternal as cited by Hort in the above quote.

Creation:

"No one now, I suppose, holds that the first three chapters of Genesis, for example, give a literal history. I could never understand how anyone reading them with open eyes could think they did." (Westcott, cited from Which Bible?, p. 191).

"But the book which has most engaged me is Darwin. Whatever may be thought of it, it is a book that one is proud to be contemporary with..... My feeling is strong that the theory is unanswerable." (Hort, cited from Which Bible?, p. 189)

Just a bunch of opinions. . .

Q.E.D.

[Robert]

"The Bible must not be interpreted to suit the ideas of men, however long they may have held these ideas to be true. We are not to accept the opinion of commentators as the voice of God; they were erring mortals like ourselves. God has given reasoning powers to us as well as to them. We should make the Bible its own expositor." {Gospel Workers, 1892, page 126.2}]

This isn't interpretation. The fact is that phrase has been added to verse 1 by scribes.

For argument's sake, let's say these commentaries are outright lying! Then let's reason it out:

Keep in mind in the original manuscripts there are no chapter and verse divisions. That was added by those who copied the original manuscripts.

So, here's how it looks:

NASB:

For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin. Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

If you place "who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit" after "Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus" you get,

"Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit."

The problem with this hybrid is it directly contradicts the context. You see the context reveals a man who delights in God's law, but who is failing to live what his mind delights in. Directly after this Paul states that there is no condemnation for such a believer, but if you add "who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit" that contradicts his "no condemnation" and makes Paul statement void.

When you add "who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit" to "there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus" it makes meaningless "the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death".

So what do you end up with? You must walk in the Spirit and thus fulfill the law in order to be set free from death or the curse of the law. That's legalism.

Not only is it legalism, but it's heresy because you must also set yourself free from "the law of sin" (your sinful nature). That's the doctrine of holy flesh, which is clearly of the devil.

[Q.E.D.]

Exactly Q.E.D.

I think you either accept the Bible as inspired by God, or you don't accept it. When people start offering Bible commentaries as proof of something biblical, they are off the track already, in my humble opinion.

I would never offer SDA Bible commentaries to anyone as proof of my beliefs.

Q.E.D.

[Q.E.D.]

The fact is that phrase has been added to verse 1 by scribes.

Where's the proof of this "fact"? Do you have a few of the original manuscripts written by Paul?

Searching diligently for the proof. . .

Q.E.D.

[Q.E.D.]

For argument's sake, let's say these commentaries are outright lying! Then let's reason is out:

Keep in mind in the original manuscripts there are no chapter and verse divisions. That was added by those who copied the original manuscripts.

So, here's how it looks:

NASB:

"For I joyfully concur with the law of God in the inner man, but I see a different law in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind and making me a prisoner of the law of sin which is in my members. Wretched man that I am! Who will set me free from the body of this death? Thanks be to God through Jesus Christ our Lord! So then, on the one hand I myself with my mind am serving the law of God, but on the other, with my flesh the law of sin. Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. For what the Law could not do, weak as it was through the flesh, God did: sending His own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and as an offering for sin, He condemned sin in the flesh, so that the requirement of the Law might be fulfilled in us, who do not walk according to the flesh but according to the Spirit."

And that's your proof that a scribe added a phrase to the Word of God?

Since when has the NASB become the absolute standard of truth?

Q.E.D.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

The fact is that phrase has been added to verse 1 by scribes.

Where's the proof of this "fact"? Do you have a few of the original manuscripts written by Paul?

Searching diligently for the proof. . .

Q.E.D.

Do you?

[Q.E.D.]

"The Bible must not be interpreted to suit the ideas of men, however long they may have held these ideas to be true. We are not to accept the opinion of commentators as the voice of God; they were erring mortals like ourselves. God has given reasoning powers to us as well as to them. We should make the Bible its own expositor." {Gospel Workers, 1892, page 126.2}

[Q.E.D.]

The fact is that phrase has been added to verse 1 by scribes.

[Robert]

It isn't an interpretation. . .It's an opinion of a commentator!

Okay then, let's go with your opinion that it reads just like the KJV.

Here's Romans 8:1,2

1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.

In order to keep yourself from being condemned you must "walk according to the Spirit" so "that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in" you! If not, then there's condemnation!

Hence the man of Romans 7 stands condemned for his failures, even though in his heart he loves God's law. That's the natural conclusion according to your view!

But that's not all, what about verse 2?

"For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death."

Who is the "me" according to the context? Answer: The man of Romans 7.

So then, the law of the Spirit of life (the Holy Spirit, where?) in Christ Jesus has made me (the man of Romans 7) free from the law of sin and death.

The man of Romans 7 has been "made free" from

1] "the law of sin"

and

2] "death"

Right now I'd like to focus in on # 2.

The man of Romans 7, through Christ Jesus, has been made free from death. What death? The 2nd death - the curse of the law death.

Hence, there isn't any condemnation to the man of Romans 7 and apparently a scribe added verse 4 to verse 1.

There you have it!

[Gibs]

No Robert in striking out any part of scripure. The KJV is from the received texts that were not a jot or tittle added to or left out. God is able and did take care of His Word. The KJV is out front to be recommended, the others are copyrighted and the only way to do that is to leave out or add to so much.

The KJV is not copyrighted. Take in the following verses carefully, please.

Re 22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

When you have the truth of a matter the Holy Spirit convicts one the same as He convicts of sin.

A counterfit spirit though has many deceived.

Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come

The HOLY SPIRIT does not convict against His Word is how to know of what spirit is doing the leading in the heart.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

The KJV is from the received texts that were not a jot or tittle added to or left out. God is able and did take care of His Word.

So the other translations are not His word? Wow, what arrogance!

BTW, I need proof that the KJV is directly from God and all other translations are of the devil. Yes?

[Robert]

But that's not all, what about verse 2?

"For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death."

Who is the "me" according to the context? Answer: The man of Romans 7.

So then, the law of the Spirit of life (the Holy Spirit, where?) in Christ Jesus has made me (the man of Romans 7) free from the law of sin and death.

The man of Romans 7 has been "made free" from

1] "the law of sin"

and

2] "death"

Right now I'd like to focus in on # 2.

The man of Romans 7, through Christ Jesus, has been made free from death. What death? The 2nd death - the curse of the law death.

Hence, there isn't any condemnation to the man of Romans 7 and apparently a scribe added verse 4 to verse 1.

There you have it!

Now you have a contradiction to solve....

[Robert]

Again, the terrible translation, from the NKJV:

"There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,[a] who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death."

That's directly copied from here!

When you click on [a] it will say, "Romans 8:1 NU-Text omits the rest of this verse"

[Robert]

1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from ...death.

Please note, according to the immediate context, that there's no condemnation for the man of Romans 7.

However, if you believe that last part of verse 1 is authentic, verse two contradicts that phrase.

Again, why?

If there's only no condemnation to those believers who are walking in the Spirit (and hence living above sin), then verse two becomes meaningless.

Again, why?

Because, "In Christ Jesus" the man of Romans 7 has been made free from death!!!

From what death did Christ comes to save us, the 1st or 2nd?

Answer: The 2nd death.

So Romans 8:2 rejects "who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit" addition to verse 1.

Why is there no condemnation to the believer struggling with sin? Because "In Christ Jesus" the struggling sinner has been saved from the 2nd death - the curse of the law.

[Robert]

True ...

Ah, refreshing, someone who thinks outside the box of traditionalism....

[Q.E.D.]

Okay then, let's go with your opinion that it reads just like the KJV.

In order to keep yourself from being condemned you must "walk according to the Spirit" so "that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in" you! If not, then there's condemnation!

Nice opinion, but not true.

Back to Romans 7.

Q.E.D.

[Q.E.D.]

Again, the terrible translation, from the NKJV:

"There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,[a] who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death."

That's directly copied from here!

When you click on [a] it will say, "Romans 8:1 NU-Text omits the rest of this verse"

Hmmm. . .It's not rocket science.

They are speaking about the fact that the corrupt Vaticanus and Sinaiticus manuscripts, which are the basis for most of the new versions, omit the phrase not the Textus Receptus.

Q.E.D.

[John317]

Again, the terrible translation, from the NKJV:

"There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus,[a] who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death."

That's directly copied from here!

When you click on [a] it will say, "Romans 8:1 NU-Text omits the rest of this verse"

There's nothing wrong at all with the translation, Robert. What you're really saying is that you disagree with the Greek text upon which the KJV and NKJV is based.

That's an entirely different matter.

The NKJV gives you what most of the Greek manuscripts have. The NU-Text gives you the reading of a small minority of Greek texts. Sometimes the NU-Text is based on only two or three Greek manuscripts and ignores hundreds of manuscripts. I personally accept both the Majority Text and the Critical Text, but in this instance, I believe the Critical Text is probably correct.

[Q.E.D.]

"To live eternally with God we must overcome our sinful character traits."

Is the above statement true or false?

"Enquiring Minds Want To Know."

Q.E.D.

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Gerhard

True ...

Ah, refreshing, someone who thinks outside the box of traditionalism....

Yes, a Catholic.

[Gibs]

Robert, A good place to start to learn about the Bible versions is Gail Riplingers book titled "New Age Bible Versions".

It is astounding what they have done with the Bible Versions to undermine the truth.

You can run the Hebrew and Greek with the KJV which gets you to the right meanning of some of the old English expressions which some have trouble with.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[John317]

Here's Romans 8:1,2

1 There is therefore now no condemnation to those who are in Christ Jesus, who do not walk according to the flesh, but according to the Spirit. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the law of sin and death.

In order to keep yourself from being condemned you must "walk according to the Spirit" so "that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in" you! If not, then there's condemnation!

Study two texts:

Romans 8:5-15

For those who live according to the flesh set their minds on the things of the flesh, but those who live according to the Spirit set their minds on the things of the Spirit. [6] To set the mind on the flesh is death, but to set the mind on the Spirit is life and peace. [7] For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, for it does not submit to God's law; indeed, it cannot. [8] Those who are in the flesh cannot please God.

[9] You, however, are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if in fact the Spirit of God dwells in you. Anyone who does not have the Spirit of Christ does not belong to him. [10] But if Christ is in you, although the body is dead because of sin, the Spirit is life because of righteousness. [11] If the Spirit of him who raised Jesus from the dead dwells in you, he who raised Christ Jesus from the dead will also give life to your mortal bodies through his Spirit who dwells in you.

[12] So then, brothers, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh. [13] For if you live according to the flesh you will die, but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. [14] For all who are led by the Spirit of God are sons of God. [15] For you did not receive the spirit of slavery to fall back into fear, but you have received the Spirit of adoption as sons, by whom we cry, "Abba! Father!"

1 John 1:5-10 & 2: 1-5--

This is the message we have heard from him and proclaim to you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all. [6] If we say we have fellowship with him while we walk in darkness, we lie and do not practice the truth. [7] But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus his Son cleanses us from all sin. [8] If we say we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us. [9] If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness. [10] If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us. [1] My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. But if anyone does sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous. [2] He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world. [3] And by this we know that we have come to know him, if we keep his commandments. [4] Whoever says "I know him" but does not keep his commandments is a liar, and the truth is not in him, [5] but whoever keeps his word, in him truly the love of God is perfected. By this we may be sure that we are in him."

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Ah, refreshing, someone who thinks outside the box of traditionalism....

Yes, a Catholic.

How ironic. Robert was accusing us of being like Catholics just the other day.