Romans 7

[BobRyan]

In Matt 7 Jesus insists that "not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord will enter the kingdom but rather he who DOES the will of My Father".

This is in harmony with Paul's statement that it is not the "hearers of the Law that are just before God but the DOERS of the Law WILL be justIFIED". Rom 2:13

The Bible doctrine on sanctification (perseverance of the saints) that we find in Romans 2:6-7, 1John 2:1, Romans 8:5-7, Romans 6, James 2, Rev 14:12, 1Peter 1, 1Cor 7:19 ... deals with obedience to the commandments of God.

Notice that we find the victory over ever sin doctrine in Romans 6, in 1Cor 10, in 1John 2:1, 1Cor 6, James 2 etc, as well as the "cease to sin" statements Ellen White makes, and her "perfection of character" comments as well.

in Christ,

Bob

[Robert]

You can keep all Ten Commandments outwardly and be in total harmony with Satan. The Pharisees did and what did Jesus say of them?

"You are of your father the devil"

[Robert]

In Matt 7 Jesus insists that "not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord will enter the kingdom but rather he who DOES the will of My Father".Bob

And the will of God is for us to rest in His Son's complete work of redemption.

[Robert]

Notice that we find the victory over ever sin doctrine in Romans 6, in 1Cor 10, in 1John 2:1, 1Cor 6, James 2 etc, as well as the "cease to sin" statements Ellen White makes, and her "perfection of character" comments as well.

Whatever! I'm complete in Christ now. So if I become perfect through God's power it doesn't add to my completeness now and in judgment.

[BobRyan]

You can keep all Ten Commandments outwardly and be in total harmony with Satan.

err... umm... because the devil is known for perfect obedience to the Law of God?

What Bible is that?

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

When bible writers want to contrast the "mere claim" to christianity with the genuine - "real deal" they do it this way.

In Matt 7 Jesus insists that "not everyone who SAYS Lord Lord will enter the kingdom but rather he who DOES the will of My Father".

This is in harmony with Paul's statement that it is not the "hearers of the Law that are just before God but the DOERS of the Law WILL be justIFIED". Rom 2:13

The Bible doctrine on sanctification (perseverance of the saints) that we find in Romans 2:6-7, 1John 2:1, Romans 8:5-7, Romans 6, James 2, Rev 14:12, 1Peter 1, 1Cor 7:19 ... deals with obedience to the commandments of God.

Notice that we find the victory over ever sin doctrine in Romans 6, in 1Cor 10, in 1John 2:1, 1Cor 6, James 2 etc, as well as the "cease to sin" statements Ellen White makes, and her "perfection of character" comments as well

Why do you suppose those inspired writers do that?

in Christ,

Bob

[Robert]

What Bible is that?

Matt 23:5 "Everything they do is done for men to see"

In other words the motives of the Pharisees were out of harmony with God's law. Remember, according to Paul, that it takes "agape" to keep the law.

[Robert]

Agape is the ingredient by which the law is kept. Without agape you cannot keep the law. Now here’s the problem. Men do not have agape, they have only self-love. Self-love only knows how to sin.

By the way, if I keep the Sabbath because I want to go to heaven, am I keeping the law? Or am I keeping sin? While sin is the transgression of the law and love is the fulfilment of the law, please, love can also be the fulfilment of sin. Self-love is the fulfilment of sin. Agape is the fulfilment of the law.

[Gerr]

24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

Doeth what? Build your house on the righteousness of Christ. Christ is the rock.

Can the man of Rom 7 be building on the righteousness of Christ while doing this? - ESV | ‎Ro 7:19 For I do not do the good I want, but the evil I do not want is what I keep on doing.

I ask you again - are the 5 foolish virgins saved? The rocky soil hearers? How are they different from the man of Rom 7?

[BobRyan]

Agape is the ingredient by which the law is kept. Without agape you cannot keep the law. Now here’s the problem. Men do not have agape, they have only self-love. Self-love only knows how to sin.

Christ said that Love for God as in Deut 6:5 and Love for your fellow Man Lev 19:18 are the foundation upon which the moral law is built.

Is it your claim that self-love results in "Loving God and keeping his Commandments" as we are told to do in the 2nd commandment?

Ex 20 (2nd commandment

4 “You shall not make for yourself a carved image—any likeness of anything that is in heaven above, or that is in the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth; 5 you shall not bow down to them nor serve them. For I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, visiting the iniquity of the fathers upon the children to the third and fourth generations of those who hate Me, 6 but showing mercy to thousands, to those who love Me and keep My commandments.

BTW - This is what Jesus references in John 14:15 "if you love Me keep My Commandments"

Is it the claim here that the devil is known for perfect obedience to the Law of God??

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

What Bible is that?

Matt 23:5 "Everything they do is done for men to see"

In other words the motives of the Pharisees were out of harmony with God's law. Remember, according to Paul, that it takes "agape" to keep the law.

In Romans 2 Paul says that the jewish rebellion against the Law of God is so obvious that even non-Jewish ungodly gentiles notice their violation of the Law of God.

21 you, therefore, who teach another, do you not teach yourself? You who preach that one shall not steal, do you steal? 22 You who say that one should not commit adultery, do you commit adultery? You who abhor idols, do you rob temples? 23 You who boast in the Law, through your breaking the Law, do you dishonor God? 24 For “the name of God is blasphemed among the Gentiles because of you,” just as it is written.

[Q.E.D.]

23 And then will I profess unto them , I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

They had works, but Jesus didn't know them. What does that mean?

It means that they weren't depending on Christ, but their own righteousness - their "many wonderful works". That's what "works of iniquity" are. They are good works on the outside , but done for a selfish motive inwardly.

"That's what "works of iniquity" are. They are good works on the outside," sez Robert.

Not according to the Greek found in Matthew 7.

According to the Greek it is impossible for "iniquitous works" to be "good works". ~ Q.E.D.

iniquity" - 458 anomia

STRONGS NT 458:

458 anomí (from 1 /A "not" and 3551 /nómos, "law") – properly, without law; lawlessness; the utter disregard for God's law

1. properly, the condition of one without law — either because ignorant of it, or because violating it.

2. contempt and violation of law, iniquity, wickedness:

Romans 6:19 to iniquity — personified — in order to work iniquity); to do iniquity, act wickedly, Matthew 13:41; 1 John 3:4; in the same sense, Matthew 7:23; plural manifestations of disregard for law, iniquities, evil deeds:

Dictionary definition of iniquity. . .

in·iq·ui·ty ( -n k w -t ). n. pl. in·iq·ui·ties. 1. Gross immorality or injustice wickedness. 2. A grossly immoral act; a sin.;

Q.E.D.

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

The person who heard the words of Jesus but built his house on the sand?

Matt 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Notice, these folks believe in works too.

23 And then will I profess unto them , I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Jesus said this is because they HEARD the Words of Christ and the Father - but did not DO them.

Matt 7

21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ will enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father who is in heaven will enter.

22 Many will say to Me on that day, ‘Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?’

23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness.’

24 “Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them,

Some would BEND this to says "I never knew you; depart from Me, you who perfectly obey my law"

As it turns out - Matt 7 is the end of the Sermon on the Mount that starts with Christ upholding the Will of the Father - His commandments

Matt 5

17 “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

Some would BEND this to say "whoever teaches that the commandments are unimportant, abolished or nailed to the cross shall be considered GREAT in the kingdom of heaven"

By contrast Paul said "What MATTERS is KEEPING the Commandments of God" 1 Cor 7:19

[Q.E.D.]

Agape is the ingredient by which the law is kept.

What happened to keeping the Holy Law by the power of the Holy Spirit?

Looking for the missing link. . .

Q.E.D.

[Gerr]

Agape is the ingredient by which the law is kept. Without agape you cannot keep the law. Now here’s the problem. Men do not have agape, they have only self-love. Self-love only knows how to sin.

That's why we MUST be born again!!! AND become PARTAKERS of the DIVINE NATURE!!!

ESV | ‎2 Pe 1:3 His divine power[has granted to us all things that pertain to life and godliness, through the knowledge of him who called us to his own glory and excellence, ‎4 by which he has granted to us his precious and very great promises, so that through them you may become partakers of the divine nature, having escaped from the corruption that is in the world because of sinful desire. ‎5 For this very reason, make every effort to supplement your faith with virtue, and virtue with knowledge, ‎6 and knowledge with self-control, and self-control with steadfastness, and steadfastness with godliness, ‎7 and godliness with brotherly affection, and brotherly affection with love. ‎8 For if these qualities are yours and are increasing, they keep you from being ineffective or unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. ‎9 For whoever lacks these qualities is so nearsighted that he is blind, having forgotten that he was cleansed from his former sins.

ESV | ‎Php 2:12 Therefore, my beloved, as you have always obeyed, so now, not only as in my presence but much more in my absence, work out your own salvation with fear and trembling, ‎13 for it is God who works in you, both to will and to work for his good pleasure.

[Gerr]

By the way, what does 'Q.E.D.' stand for?

Per Wikipedia: Q.E.D = quod erat demonstrandum - that which can be demonstrated.

[Q.E.D.]

Originally Posted By: Gerhard

By the way, what does 'Q.E.D.' stand for?

Per Wikipedia: Q.E.D = quod erat demonstrandum - that which can be demonstrated.

Often used at the conclusion of logical geometry proofs.

Q.E.D.

[12tribes]

There are different categories for people who are not converted but, only one for the converted. Wide is the way that leads to destruction and narrow is the way that leads to life.

[BobRyan]

Amen!

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Agape is the ingredient by which the law is kept.

What happened to keeping the Holy Law by the power of the Holy Spirit?

Looking for the missing link. . .

Q.E.D.

Indeed Romans 8 "by the Spirit putting to death the deeds of the flesh".

and 2Cor 10:4-5 "the weapons of our warfare are divinely powerful for the tearing down of strongholds - taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ".

1Cor 10 "no temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man and God IS FAITHFUL who will not ALLOW you to be tempted beyond that which you are able - but will with the temptation provide the way of escape."

in Christ,

Bob

[Lysimachus]

If Robert wants to know the definition of a Legalist, he ought to meet the Anti-Paulinests, lol. They say Paul and Christ were opposed to each other, and Paul was a false Apostle. They are growing leaps and bounds, are into Torah keeping, Feast Keeping, even Circumcision, and believe Paul "hijacked" Christianity and was claiming to be the 13th apostle.

As one who believes we must keep the Law, and one who believes we cannot be saved by willfully breaking the Sabbath or any commandment, they accused me of being a Gracer, and told me that Satan has deceived me into thinking the Law has been abolished, LOL. And that Paul has deluded me into thinking I can break the commandments----even though I told them a million times that I believe in keeping the commandments.

[Lysimachus]

Anybody is welcome to join the Anti-Paulinest thread:

http://www.facebook.com/groups/pauldebate/

[Robert]

Who told you that you were keeping the law? Keeping the law is living Christ's life.

He who says, “I am holy, I am sinless,” is self-deceived....To entertain such a thought is blasphemy. Not to see the marked contrast between Christ and ourselves is not to know ourselves. He who does not abhor himself can not understand the meaning of redemption. RH Sep 25, 1900

[Lysimachus]

Robert,

Nobody is claiming to be sinless, or holy.

And even if we do attain it, we won't know it, or think it, or boast about it. In fact, the closer we are to Jesus, the more sinful we will behold ourselves and see ourselves.

The point is: If you are IN CHRIST, you will be striving, with all your God-given effort, to live in compliance with the Law of Heaven. That will be a "given". An "automatic fruitage". Your efforts will bear fruit.

But you won't be doing it to attain salvation. You will be doing it because you love God.

BobRyan has said nothing even remotely resembling a Legalist. You simply read things into his posts that do not exist, because you wear the wrong lenses when you read everyone's comments. And you need to change your glasses.

I encourage you to soak in these words of wisdom coming from brother Joseph Harvey Waggoner (1882-1889), for which I find quite sobering as well as truthful:

• "Some will not admit that the law of God has any agency in conversion. But no one can be truly converted without conviction of sin; and no one can have thorough and intelligent conviction of sin without knowledge of the law, "for by the law is the knowledge of sin." Hence the Scriptures are strictly true (they are always true) when they say, "The law of the Lord is perfect, converting the soul." Ps. 19:7. In this age of superficial conversions many consider this passage obscure, and some endeavor to change its terms. We believe that President Finney was altogether correct in his expression of the opinion that the multitude of superficial conversion of late years is owing to the practice which is becoming so prevalent, of preaching a system of pardon without any heartfelt conviction, the conscience of the sinner not being aroused by a faithful presentation of the claims of the broken law. Genuine repentance is of sin; repentance for the transgression of the law. Therefore, where the claims of the law are not recognized, there can be no real conversion. True conversion is not merely emotional; not alone a matter of the feelings. It is a radical change of life; a turning from wrong to right. And how shall this be effected unless we are guided by the divine rule of right? By it alone is wrought that conviction which will lead us to Christ, who only can set us right."

  ~Source: (1884 J. H. Waggoner, , The Atonement, Part Second: The Atonement as Revealed in the Bible Chapter I. Principles of the Divine Government, p. 80.1)

[Lysimachus]

Keep in mind, Robert, that the "common theme", and "ever engrossing topic" among the evangelical world today is this... "you can't keep the law, so don't even try....you are saved by Grace, and the law is done away with....Grace Grace Grace...Love Love Love....works have no part whatsoever in the salvation of man", etc. etc.

Ask yourself Robert: As part of a "peculiar people", does it make sense that God wants you preaching this same language that has been being preached among popular Evangelicalism for umpteen years?

It is without question that God wants us to lift the standard higher. Too much focus exists within Evangelicalism about Grace and Jesus without the law. And the more emphasis on these things without the law, the decrease of immorality in this nation, and the increase of crime. Something is wrong with this picture.

Therefore, it is of utmost necessity in this modern day and age to STRONGLY emphasize the binding claims of God's Moral Law--and Christ must be seen IN the law. The two go together, for Christ IS the law and the law IS Christ. Christ is a living walking manifestation of the law---a the complete embodiment of the law. The law is simply a transcript of His character.

So to live in Christ is to walk as He walked.