Romans 7

[John317]

Who told you that you were keeping the law? Keeping the law is living Christ's life.

He who says,I am holy, I am sinless, is self-deceived....To entertain such a thought is blasphemy. Not to see the marked contrast between Christ and ourselves is not to know ourselves. He who does not abhor himself can not understand the meaning of redemption. RH Sep 25, 1900

That quote is true, Robert, but we need to read some of the other statements on the same topic by Ellen White:

Quote:

Will we obey God and keep His commandments? Will we be doers of the Word and not hearers only? God's law is as immutable and unchangeable as His character. Whatever men may say or do to make it void does not change its claims or release them from their obligation to obey. {FW 42.3}

As the Israelites kept their children within their houses during the time when the judgments of God were in the land of Egypt, so in this time of peril we are to keep our children separate and distinct from the world. We are to teach them that the commandments of God mean much more than we realize. Those who keep them will not imitate the practices of the transgressors of God's law. {CG 304.3}

Men may raise up all the combativeness they please, but the commandments of God are the commandments of God still. We have decided to keep God's commandments and live, and [preserve] His law as the apple of our eye. Let men rail out against the law of God and trample His commandment-keeping people under their feet. Can they do it and live? It is impossible. God has His measurement of character, and it is those who obey Him that live, and those who keep His law as the apple of their eye that He preserves.--Manuscript 5, 1891. {Ev 244.1}

We don't keep the law of God in order to be right with God. Rather, we keep the law of God because we are right with God.

[John317]

Robert, no one is claiming that they keep God's law perfectly. It isn't a matter of our meeting the demands of the law in order to be justified by God. Keeping God's law is a matter of love for Christ. It's about relationship.

A marriage partner doesn't obey rules in order to be married or in order to earn a wife or husband's love. His behavior is what it is because he is already married and he loves his wife.

It is the same with keeping the commandments of God.

[John317]

Keep in mind, Robert, that the "common theme", and "ever engrossing topic" among the evangelical world today is this... "you can't keep the law, so don't even try....you are saved by Grace, and the law is done away with....Grace Grace Grace...Love Love Love....works have no part whatsoever in the salvation of man", etc. etc.

Ask yourself Robert: As part of a "peculiar people", does it make sense that God wants you preaching this same language that has been being preached among popular Evangelicalism for umpteen years?

This is a very good point, and one that I have seen happen in the past week as I study the Bible with two friends of mine who are non-SDA pastors.

Their argument is that we don't need to keep the Sabbath because we can't keep the law of God anyway.

But they don't like that argument when it's applied to any of the other Ten Commandments. They only apply it to the Sabbath commandment.

They agree that we should keep all of the other 9 and that God's grace doesn't free us to break them, but for some reason they can't see that God's grace does not free us from keeping the Sabbath commandment.

[Robert]

"you can't keep the law, so don't even try....you are saved by Grace, and the law is done away with....Grace Grace Grace...Love Love Love....works have no part whatsoever in the salvation of man", etc. etc.

I'm not hearing this and my wife goes to a local Baptist church. You must be making this up.

[Robert]

That quote is true, Robert, but we need to read some of the other statements on the same topic by Ellen White

[Robert]

They agree that we should keep all of the other 9 and that God's grace doesn't free us to break them, but for some reason they can't see that God's grace does not free us from keeping the Sabbath commandment.

Again, who says that we are even keeping 9? If you hate someone who has wronged you in the eyes of the law you've murdered him. If you look at a woman lustfully (we like to call it admiring her good looks) you've committed adultery. In fact if there's self-seeking in your life the law condemns you. So no matter how you add it up we are coming up short. Does that mean we should just live for the flesh? No!

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: John317

They agree that we should keep all of the other 9 and that God's grace doesn't free us to break them, but for some reason they can't see that God's grace does not free us from keeping the Sabbath commandment.

Again, who says that we are even keeping 9? If you hate someone who has wronged you in the eyes of the law you've murdered him. If you look at a woman lustfully (we like to call it admiring her good looks) you've committed adultery. In fact if there's self-seeking in your life the law condemns you. So no matter how you add it up we are coming up short. Does that mean we should just live for the flesh? No!

So then, since according to your view no believer is keeping the law, and since Scripture declares that "the soul that sins shall die," all are either saved or all are lost. I have yet to see an answer to my question - are the 5 foolish virgins saved along with the wise? Are the rocky soil hearers saved also? My apologies if I missed your answer, in which case, just give me the reference.

[Guest]

Yes Robert, give the answer and the reference please. I haven't seen it either.

[Robert]

So then, since according to your view no believer is keeping the law, and since Scripture declares that "the soul that sins shall die," all are either saved or all are lost.

And "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God". In Romans 5:12, Paul says, "Therefore, just as through one man sin entered into the world, and death through sin, and so death spread to all men, because all sinned".

So under law we've had it. Christ first and foremost had to deliver us from under the law, but I rarely hear this within SDA circles. All I hear is the law, the law, the law, but none are truly keeping the law and therefore SDA are rightly labeled subtle legalists.

If you do not teach that Christ came to save us from the law and instead first present Him as our example the outcome will always be legalism.

Romans 5:18 So then as through one transgression (Adam's) there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness (Christ's) there resulted justification of life to all men.

Of course mankind needs to accept this truth: Verse 17 "much more those who receive the abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness will reign in life through the One, Jesus Christ."

Now, after you present Jesus as mankind's redeemer then, and only then, can you present Him as our example.

[Gerr]

Well, I see that you still have not and will not answer my question!

Christ came to save us FROM the law? Why then do Jesus and the apostles and the prophets ALL want us to obey the law? It is the CONDEMNATION of the law that we are saved from and NOT from keeping the law!

[Guest]

Preach on Gerry!

[BobRyan]

Robert,

Nobody is claiming to be sinless, or holy.

...

BobRyan has said nothing even remotely resembling a Legalist. You simply read things into his posts that do not exist, be

As King James' buddies would have said -- Thou hast said well my friend!

[BobRyan]

Well, I see that you still have not and will not answer my question!

Christ came to save us FROM the law? Why then do Jesus and the apostles and the prophets ALL want us to obey the law? It is the CONDEMNATION of the law that we are saved from and NOT from keeping the law!

Indeed we are saved from the condemnation of the law and we are saved from slavery to sinning - slavery to rebellion against the Law of God.

"God is faithful who will not ALLOW you to be tempted beyond that which you are able but will with the temptation provide the way of escape." 1Cor 10.

in Christ,

Bob

[Robert]

Indeed we are saved from the condemnation of the law and we are saved from slavery to sinning....

If we were saved from sinning we could claim holiness, but none of us are living Christ's life.

[BobRyan]

That is like saying "If you claim Jesus loves you and that Christians are ambassadors for Christ - then you can hit somebody in the name of Jesus" - as if that is an argument against the Bible statement that Jesus Loves us.

[Robert]

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

Indeed we are saved from the condemnation of the law and we are saved from slavery to sinning....

If we were saved from sinning we could claim holiness, but none of us are living Christ's life.

"For the grace of God that brings salvation has appeared to all men. 12 It teaches us to say “No” to ungodliness and worldly passions, and to live self-controlled, upright and godly lives in this present age,"

The Holy Bible: New International Version. 1984 (Tt 2:11–12). Grand Rapids, MI: Zondervan.

" When it is in the heart to obey God, when efforts are put forth to this end, Jesus accepts this disposition and effort as man's best service, and He makes up for the deficiency with His own divine merit. But He will not accept those who claim to have faith in Him and yet are disloyal to His Father's commandment. We hear a great deal about faith, but we need to hear a great deal more about works. Many are deceiving their own souls by living an easy-going, accommodating, crossless religion." {FW 50.1}

We may not be living Christ's life, but this is how grace enables the sinner's inadequacy to obey the law.

[BobRyan]

That is like saying "If you claim Jesus loves you and that Christians are ambassadors for Christ - then you "could" hit somebody in the name of Jesus" - as if that is an argument against the Bible statement that Jesus Loves us and that we are called to be ambassadors for Christ - to act in His name.

[Robert]

We may not be living Christ's life, but this is how grace enables the sinner's inadequacy to obey the law.

You have a contradiction above....Living Christ's life is obeying the law.

[Robert]

I am just saying that coming up with some new bad thing that you "could do" to abuse some true Bible doctrine - does not form an odd kind of proof against that Bible doctrine.

I'm doubly confused.

[BobRyan]

you take what the Bible says about victory over sin and then suggest that we could find a way to abuse it. But that argument is not an argument against the Bible teaching on that point any more than coming up with a way to abuse marriage is an argument against the Bible teaching on Marriage.

Same point.

in Christ,

Bob

[Gerr]

[Robert]

The quote says, "When it is in the heart to obey God,when efforts are put forth to this end, Jesus accepts this disposition and effort as man's best service, and He makes up for the deficiency with His own divine merit.

And the man of Romans 7 is trying...so it's in the heart. Thank you!

[Guest]

I'm doubly confused.

We've known this for some time now. But we love you anyway. :)

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

The quote says, "When it is in the heart to obey God,when efforts are put forth to this end, Jesus accepts this disposition and effort as man's best service, and He makes up for the deficiency with His own divine merit.

And the man of Romans 7 is trying...so it's in the heart. Thank you!

For sure he is trying, bbbbbbbbutttt, he is doing it WITHOUT the Holy Spirit!!!

Here's what happens when believers "walk in the Spirit,..you shall not fulfill the lust of the flesh," Gal 5:16.

Both the foolish and the wise virgins of Mt 25 had lamps, but only the wise had the oil.