Romans 7

[BobRyan]

No, my argument is with your spin of the Bible. You sir aren't Christ and you aren't living His life, so I wish you stop it with the self-righteous nonsense.

[BobRyan]

Quote:

Many see much to admire in the life of Christ. But true love for him can never dwell in the heart of the self-righteous. Not to see our own deformity is not to see the beauty of Christ’s character. When we are fully awake to our own sinfulness, we shall appreciate Christ. The more humble are our views of ourselves, the more clearly we shall see the spotless character of Jesus. He who says, “I am holy, I am sinless,” is self-deceived. Some have said this, and some even dare to say, “I am Christ.” To entertain such a thought is blasphemy. Not to see the marked contrast between Christ and ourselves is not to know ourselves. He who does not abhor himself can not understand the meaning of redemption. RH Sep 25, 1900

Sine you want to appeal to Ellen White "so often" -- we all notice that Ellen White's view on "cease to sin" - and how she does not view that as making the claim that one's entire life has been sinless.

===========================================

Let no Christian seek to excuse himself in sin on the ground that others who have claimed to follow Jesus have committed the same errors. Your sin is none the less heinous because others have been guilty; and your manifest duty is to confess your sin to Jesus Christ, your intercessor. Take the weight of your woe to no human being. You have one mediator, Jesus Christ the righteous. In contrition of soul go to him and tell all your sins. The promise is sure, "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." John says: "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous." "That ye sin not,"--here is where you bring yourself into condemnation when you continue to sin. But in the strength of Christ cease to sin. Every provision has been made that grace should abide with you, and that sin may appear to you the hateful thing it is. But if any man sin, he is not to give himself up to despair, and talk like a man who is lost to Christ. "If any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: and he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world." {RH, March 21, 1912 par. 1}

Signs of Times July 20

http://egwwritings.whiteestate.org/nxt/g...icle11041.htm#1

Let us arise in faith, and press closer to Jesus. Let us rejoice in his love. We may obtain the most precious victories. There is help for us in God. Let us grasp the promises, and look to Calvary. Jesus died to save us from sin; then let us cease to sin, and open the heart wide, that he may come in and abide with us. {ST, July 20, 1888 par. 5}

RH August 28, 1894 para 4

Today the question is to come home to every heart, Do you believe in the Son of God? The question is not, Do you admit that Jesus is the Redeemer of the world? and that you should repeat to your soul and to others, "Believe, believe, all you have to do is to believe;" but, Do you have practical faith in the Son of God, so that you bring him into your life and character until you are one with him? Many accept of the theory of Christ, but they make it manifest by their works that they do not know him as the Saviour who died for the sins of men, who bore the penalty of their transgression, in order that they might be brought back to their loyalty to God, and through the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour, might find acceptance with God in their obedience to his law. Christ died to make it possible for you to cease to sin, and sin is the transgression of the law. {RH, August 28, 1894 par. 4}

PERIODICALS/RH - The Review and Herald/April 24, 1900 Christian Perfection. - Mrs. E. G. White. -

In his prayer to the Father, Christ said, "This is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." We must learn of Christ. We must know what he is to those he has ransomed. We must realize that through belief in him it is our privilege to be partakers of the divine nature, and so escape the corruption that is in the world through lust. Then we are cleansed from all sin, all defects of character. We need not retain one sinful propensity. Christ is the sin-bearer; John pointed the people to him, saying, "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." And Paul declared. "You hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, . . . and hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus." {RH, April 24, 1900 par. 6}

==================

in Christ,

Bob

[Robert]

I don't agree with everything Ellen writes because of the following:

Do not think that, because we have a glimmer of the light of God, that we have it all.--Ms. 3, 1889, pp. 1-3. (Morning Talk at Ottawa, Kansas, May 14, 1889.)

The question has been asked me, "Do you think that the Lord has any more light for us as a people?" I answer that He has light that is new to us, and yet it is precious old light that is to shine forth from the Word of truth [the Bible]. We have only the glimmerings of the rays of the light that is yet to come to us. [1SM 401]

We have many lessons to learn, and many, many to unlearn. God and heaven alone are infallible. Those who think that they will never have to give up a cherished view, never have occasion to change an opinion, will be disappointed. [CW 37]

“A spirit of pharisaism has been coming in upon the people who claim to believe the truth for these last days. They are self-satisfied. They have said, ‘We have the truth. There is no more light for the people of God.’ But we are not safe when we take a position that we will not accept anything else than that upon which we have settled as truth. We should take the Bible, and investigate it closely for ourselves. We should dig in the mine of God's word for truth. ‘Light is sown for the righteous, and gladness for the upright in heart.’ Some have asked me if I thought there was any more light for the people of God. Our minds have become so narrow that we do not seem to understand that the Lord has a mighty work to do for us. Increasing light is to shine upon us; for ‘the path of the just is as the shining light, that shineth more and more unto the perfect day.’ --Review and Herald, June 18, 1889. CW 34, 35

In other words she doesn't have the last word. She is not the end all, be all for all spiritual knowledge. She and the church had limited light (a glimmer).

Clearly Ellen White grew in knowledge. Here's a case in point:

“The Lord loves those little children who try to do right, and he has promised that they shall be in his kingdom. But wicked children God does not love. He will not take them to the beautiful City, for he only admits the good, obedient, and patient children there…. When you feel tempted to speak impatient and fretful, remember the Lord sees you, and will not love you if you do wrong. “ [AY 63, 1860]

4

“Do not teach your children that God does not love them when they do wrong….Do not terrify your children by telling them of the wrath of God, but rather seek to impress them with his unspeakable love and goodness….” [bible Echo and Signs of the Times, 02-01-1892]

[Robert]

Jesus died to save us from sin; then let us cease to sin

That's not the primary reason. She's wrong if that's her teaching. The primary reason was to save humanity from the penalty from sin, which is the 2nd death. So He came to save His people from their sins (the result).

If He came to make everyone just like Him (perfect in agape) then no one will make it.

[BobRyan]

That's not the primary reason. She's wrong if that's her teaching. The primary reason was to save humanity from the penalty from sin,

She says a lot about both salvation from the PENALTY and from the POWER of sin as the quotes above have shown - and as Paul declares in Romans 2 and 6 and 8.

My reason for indulging you in your suggestion that we look at what Ellen White says on this "cease to sin" subject - is that it does not help the case you are trying to make.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

In these examples - Ellen White argues for "cease to sin" as a "good thing" not as something "to be condemned". If you go by the play book some of the lib and progressives use in recent times - you would never guess that this view was the one given to Ellen White by God - or indeed that she promoted this Bible-based doctrine.

==================================

Let no Christian seek to excuse himself in sin on the ground that others who have claimed to follow Jesus have committed the same errors. Your sin is none the less heinous because others have been guilty; and your manifest duty is to confess your sin to Jesus Christ, your intercessor. Take the weight of your woe to no human being. You have one mediator, Jesus Christ the righteous. In contrition of soul go to him and tell all your sins. The promise is sure, "If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." John says: "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous." "That ye sin not,"--here is where you bring yourself into condemnation when you continue to sin. But in the strength of Christ cease to sin. Every provision has been made that grace should abide with you, and that sin may appear to you the hateful thing it is. But if any man sin, he is not to give himself up to despair, and talk like a man who is lost to Christ. "If any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: and he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of the whole world." {RH, March 21, 1912 par. 1}

Signs of Times July 20

http://egwwritings.whiteestate.org/nxt/g...icle11041.htm#1

Let us arise in faith, and press closer to Jesus. Let us rejoice in his love. We may obtain the most precious victories. There is help for us in God. Let us grasp the promises, and look to Calvary. Jesus died to save us from sin; then let us cease to sin, and open the heart wide, that he may come in and abide with us. {ST, July 20, 1888 par. 5}

RH August 28, 1894 para 4

Today the question is to come home to every heart, Do you believe in the Son of God? The question is not, Do you admit that Jesus is the Redeemer of the world? and that you should repeat to your soul and to others, "Believe, believe, all you have to do is to believe;" but, Do you have practical faith in the Son of God, so that you bring him into your life and character until you are one with him? Many accept of the theory of Christ, but they make it manifest by their works that they do not know him as the Saviour who died for the sins of men, who bore the penalty of their transgression, in order that they might be brought back to their loyalty to God, and through the merits of a crucified and risen Saviour, might find acceptance with God in their obedience to his law. Christ died to make it possible for you to cease to sin, and sin is the transgression of the law. {RH, August 28, 1894 par. 4}

PERIODICALS/RH - The Review and Herald/April 24, 1900 Christian Perfection. - Mrs. E. G. White. -

In his prayer to the Father, Christ said, "This is life eternal, that they might know thee the only true God, and Jesus Christ, whom thou hast sent." We must learn of Christ. We must know what he is to those he has ransomed. We must realize that through belief in him it is our privilege to be partakers of the divine nature, and so escape the corruption that is in the world through lust. Then we are cleansed from all sin, all defects of character. We need not retain one sinful propensity. Christ is the sin-bearer; John pointed the people to him, saying, "Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world." And Paul declared. "You hath he quickened, who were dead in trespasses and sins; wherein in time past ye walked according to the course of this world, according to the prince of the power of the air, the spirit that now worketh in the children of disobedience: among whom also we all had our conversation in times past in the lusts of our flesh, fulfilling the desires of the flesh and of the mind; and were by nature the children of wrath, even as others. But God, who is rich in mercy, for his great love wherewith he loved us, even when we were dead in sins, hath quickened us together with Christ, . . . and hath raised us up together, and made us sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus." {RH, April 24, 1900 par. 6}

[Robert]

In these examples - Ellen White argues for "cease to sin" as a "good thing" not as something "to be condemned".

Great..."cease to sin" - cease your self-love & self-seeking. Give up all self-interests and, just as Christ, "think not, plan not, live not" for yourself.

Christ, as the son of man, gave up heaven for His enemies, not just for 3 days, but for eternity. Duplicate that and the law will see you as righteous as God is righteous.

[BobRyan]

I have been appealing to the Bible to make this "these things I write to you that you sin not" case. (1John 2:1)

you insisted that Ellen White would not agree with the Bible on that point - so I am simply pointing out where your assumption is not correct.

you seem to object to the details - but here again your argument is with the text.

in Christ,

Bob

[Robert]

"these things I write to you that you sin not" (1John 2:1)

What do you think that God, working through John, is going to say - sin to your heart's desire? Of course not!

"But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense--Jesus Christ, the Righteous One."

Now I suppose you think that because this verse says "if anybody does sin" that to you this means that before you sinned that you were without sin?

Well, let's look at the context:

"He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked."

If you are fully walking in the Spirit, then according to John you should be walking as Christ walked, i.e., you will live His life.

Are you?

[BobRyan]

What do you think that God, working through John, is going to say - sin to your heart's desire? Of course not!

Indeed as you note - he is not going to say that.

Neither is He going to say that through Ellen White - judging from the texts we find here -

http://www.clubadventist.com/forum/ubbthreads.php/topics/584514/Re_Romans_7.html#Post584514

There we see the command to "cease to sin" much as we find it in 1John 2:1.

I think we have you to thank for asking that we bring Ellen White into this topic.

in Christ,

Bob

[Robert]

If you are fully walking in the Spirit, then according to John you should be walking as Christ walked, i.e., you will live His life.

Are you?

The great Apostle Paul wasn't - see Phil 3:12

[BobRyan]

The great Apostle Paul wasn't - see Phil 3:12

Robert - Since you express an interest in Philippians chapter 3 - I am sure you know that in that chapter Paul insists that his example is to be followed.

Again your instinct is to go directly to sources that reveal the flaw in your teaching.

Phil 3

15 Let us therefore, as many as are perfect, have this attitude; and if in anything you have a different attitude, God will reveal that also to you;

16 however, let us keep living by that same standard to which we have attained.

17 Brethren, join in following my example, and observe those who walk according to the pattern you have in us.

18 For many walk, of whom I often told you, and now tell you even weeping, that they are enemies of the cross of Christ,

19 whose end is destruction, whose god is their appetite, and whose glory is in their shame, who set their minds on earthly things.

But what you may not know is that Paul offers himself as an example in 1Thess as well.

1 Thess 1

5for our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction; just as you know what kind of men we proved to be among you for your sake.

6You also became imitators of us and of the Lord, having received the word in much tribulation with the joy of the Holy Spirit,

7so that you became an example to all the believers in Macedonia and in Achaia.

1 Thess 2

10 You are witnesses, and so is God, how devoutly and uprightly and blamelessly we behaved toward you believers;

11 just as you know how we were exhorting and encouraging and imploring each one of you as a father would his own children,

12 so that you would walk in a manner worthy of the God who calls you into His own kingdom and glory.

2 Thess 2

4 therefore, we ourselves speak proudly of you among the churches of God for your perseverance and faith in the midst of all your persecutions and afflictions which you endure.

5 This is a plain indication of God's righteous judgment so that you will be considered worthy of the kingdom of God, for which indeed you are suffering.

...

11 To this end also we pray for you always, that our God will count you worthy of your calling, and fulfill every desire for goodness and the work of faith with power,

12 so that the name of our Lord Jesus will be glorified in you, and you in Him, according to the grace of our God and the Lord Jesus Christ

(Good thing I did not author that - I would certainly be hung in effigy)

in Christ,

Bob

[Robert]

Bob, read the context:

Phil 3:6 ...as to righteousness under the law, blameless.

As a Pharisee, Paul considered himself blameless before the law.

8....I regard them as rubbish, in order that I may gain Christ 9 and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but one that comes through faith in Christ, the righteousness from God based on faith.

As a believer in Christ, Paul consider his law righteousness "rubbish". The KJV says "dung".

As a mature believer (not a babe in Christ) Paul said, Not that I "have already been made perfect, but I press on to take hold of that for which Christ Jesus took hold of me. 13 Brothers, I do not consider myself yet to have taken hold of it. But one thing I do: Forgetting what is behind and straining toward what is ahead, 14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in Christ Jesus. 15 All of us who are mature (other translations say "perfect") should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you. 16 Only let us live up to what we have already attained.

So again, perfection, no....

Are you as perfect as God is perfect? That's perfection.

[Robert]

Bob, the bottom line is you are never good enough in your performance to merit salvation in any form. You will be saved by the imputed righteousness of Christ. You can add nothing.

[BobRyan]

Bob, the bottom line is you are never good enough in your performance to merit salvation in any form. You will be saved by the imputed righteousness of Christ. You can add nothing.

I see - so the lost person needs to rely on the righteousness of Christ and the payment that Christ made on the cross - so they can become a saved person.

I think you see that point clearly. I have always said that.

What you appear to be foggy on - is the Bible doctrine on the perseverance of the saints in the walk that the Bible calls sanctification.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Bob, read the context:

Phil 3:6 ...as to righteousness under the law, blameless.

As a Pharisee, Paul considered himself blameless before the law.

Indeed in his lost state Saul did not see the full claims of the law.

That is Paul in Phil 3:6.

Then we "move on" and we "read more" in the chapter besides just vs 6. And that brings us to the "Saved Paul" statements about his life as a saved saint.

Phil 3

15 Let us therefore, as many as are perfect, have this attitude; and if in anything you have a different attitude, God will reveal that also to you;

16 however, let us keep living by that same standard to which we have attained.

17 Brethren, join in following my example, and observe those who walk according to the pattern you have in us.

18 For many walk, of whom I often told you, and now tell you even weeping, that they are enemies of the cross of Christ,

19 whose end is destruction, whose god is their appetite, and whose glory is in their shame, who set their minds on earthly things.

But what you may not know is that Paul offers himself as an example in 1Thess as well.

1 Thess 1

5for our gospel did not come to you in word only, but also in power and in the Holy Spirit and with full conviction; just as you know what kind of men we proved to be among you for your sake.

6You also became imitators of us and of the Lord, having received the word in much tribulation with the joy of the Holy Spirit,

7so that you became an example to all the believers in Macedonia and in Achaia.

this is point of Bible doctrine where you appear to struggle. Your model seems to have no place for it.

According to your model - this should not even exist.

in Christ,

Bob

[Gerr]

Bob, the bottom line is you are never good enough in your performance to merit salvation in any form. You will be saved by the imputed righteousness of Christ. You can add nothing.

Are the 5 foolish virgins saved? The person who heard the words of Jesus but built his house on the sand? The stony ground hearer who even received the word eagerly?

[Gibs]

Php 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Bob, the bottom line is you are never good enough in your performance to merit salvation in any form. You will be saved by the imputed righteousness of Christ. You can add nothing.

Are the 5 foolish virgins saved? The person who heard the words of Jesus but built his house on the sand? The stony ground hearer who even received the word eagerly?

How about the person of Matt 18 who according to the text is "fully forgiven" but then experiences "forgiveness revoked" and all his original debt is returned to him?

in Christ,

Bob

[Robert]

sanctification...

Sanctification isn't perfection...it is growth. As long a life shall last there will be stopping point where we can say I have attained to perfection. Who said that? Ellen White.

[BobRyan]

The Bible doctrine on sanctification (perseverance of the saints) that we find in Romans 2:6-7, 1John 2:1, Romans 8:5-7, Romans 6, James 2, Rev 14:12, 1Peter 1, 1Cor 7:19 ... deals with obedience to the commandments of God.

I never claimed that it involved people pronouncing perfection over themselves - as you have often claimed. I just think that is part the narrative you like to invent.

Rather it is the victory over ever sin doctrine that we find in Romans 6, in 1Cor 10, in 1John 2:1, 1Cor 6, James 2 etc, as well as the "cease to sin" statements Ellen White makes, and her "perfection of character" comments as well.

[Robert]

The person who heard the words of Jesus but built his house on the sand?

Matt 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

Notice, these folks believe in works too.

23 And then will I profess unto them , I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

They had works, but Jesus didn't know them. What does that mean?

It means that they weren't depending on Christ, but their own righteousness - their "many wonderful works". That's what "works of iniquity" are. They are good works on the outside, but done for a selfish motive inwardly.

Works done to get something back (as in heaven) are motivated by either a reward or fear. Neither of them reflect agape love - a love that is not self-seeking.

24 Therefore whosoever heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them, I will liken him unto a wise man, which built his house upon a rock:

Doeth what? Build your house on the righteousness of Christ. Christ is the rock.

25 And the rain descended , and the floods came , and the winds blew , and beat upon that house; and it fell not: for it was founded upon a rock (Christ's righteousness).

26 And every one that heareth these sayings of mine, and doeth them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, which built his house upon the sand:

The man who built his house on sand represents those who rely on their performance in order to gain heaven. They build on sand because it isn't the righteousness of Christ, but there own legalistic works.

[Gibs]

Robert, you needed to post the verses before Matt 7:22 and read these with your understanding attached and His Spirit opening your eyes,

Mt 7:16 Ye shall know them by their fruits. Do men gather grapes of thorns, or figs of thistles?

Mt 7:17 Even so every good tree bringeth forth good fruit; but a corrupt tree bringeth forth evil fruit.

Mt 7:18 A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.

Mt 7:19 Every tree that bringeth not forth good fruit is hewn down, and cast into the fire.

Mt 7:20 Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Mt 7:21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

That sets the context far different and not at all what you want us to believe.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

Quote:

Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.

Yes, and legalistic fruits show we are of the wrong spirit. In fact, those who continue in such fruits will fall from grace.

Gal 5:4 You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

Look at Paul before conversion:

Phil 3:6 "Touching the righteousness which is in the law, blameless."

What's the fruit? Pride, self-sufficiency, boasting, you name it.

[Gibs]

Jesus stated those things and what kind of fruit we bear is works of either God or Satan. All bear fruit, do you bear the fruit of continuing in sin because you won't let Him be your Master instead of you? With Him as the Master you easily are an overcomer, that's why He came, to make that possible for you.

Do not deny His power in you to bear good fruit and no bad. Satan is the producer of the bad fruit in a peraon, cast him out and bring Christ by falling on Him and being broken. That must be done, pride and self cruicified, do it!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.