Romans 7

[Robert]

It is because of our self-love - our bent-to-self - our iniquity - that all have sinned and fall short of God's agape love. Is there any condemnation for those who have put their faith "in Christ Jesus", but who are failing to live His life? That's the question! The answer?

Romans 8:1 Therefore, there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus, 2 (why?) because in Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life set YOU free from the law of sin and death.

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

Do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW of Rom 3:31

Lifted out of context!

[BobRyan]

The fascinating/instructive thing is that some people complain about the mere quote of these texts - as if to quote them without spending time to water them down and deny them is somehow - a bad thing.

======================================

What does the Word of God say?

- the saved person is under the New Covenant with the "Law written on the mind and on the heart" Hebrews 8, Jer 31:31-33. Thus as Paul says in Rom 3:31 "Do we then make void the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! In fact we ESTABLISH the LAW of God" Rom 3:31

For example --

1 Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God".

And in the chapter just before that Paul says to Christians that he is reproving for their sins -

1Cor 6

9 Or do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived; neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor homosexuals,

10 nor thieves, nor the covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers, will inherit the kingdom of God.

11 Such were some of you; but you were washed, but you were sanctified, but you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and in the Spirit of our God.

Which fits perfectly with Paul's letter to the Galatians.

Gal 5

16 But I say, walk by the Spirit, and you will not carry out the desire of the flesh.

17 For the flesh sets its desire against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; for these are in opposition to one another, so that you may not do the things that you please.

18 But if you are led by the Spirit, you are not under the Law.

19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality,

20 idolatry, sorcery, enmities, strife, jealousy, outbursts of anger, disputes, dissensions, factions,

21 envying, drunkenness, carousing, and things like these, of which I forewarn you, just as I have forewarned you, that those who practice such things will not inherit the kingdom of God.

Romans 6

10For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God.

11Even so consider yourselves to be dead to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus.

12Therefore do not let sin reign in your mortal body so that you obey its lusts,

13and do not go on presenting the members of your body to sin as instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves to God as those alive from the dead,

13 -and your members as instruments of righteousness to God.

14For sin shall not be master over you, for you are not under law but under grace.

15What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? May it never be!

16Do you not know that when you present yourselves to someone as slaves for obedience, you are slaves of the one whom you obey, either of sin resulting in death, or of obedience resulting in righteousness?

Romans 8

12 So then, brethren, we are under obligation, not to the flesh, to live according to the flesh

13 for if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

14 For all who are being led by the Spirit of God, these are sons of God.

Rev 14:12 - the saints are those who "KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus"

1 John 2

1 My little children, I am writing these things to you so that you may not sin. And if anyone sins, we have an Advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous;

James 2

8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF," you are doing well.

9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors.

10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.

11 For He who said, "DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY," also said, "DO NOT COMMIT MURDER." Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.

12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty

1John 2

The Test of Knowing Him

3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.

4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.

6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

John 14:15 "If you love Me KEEP My commandments"

John 15:14 "Love Me and KEEP My Commandments"

Taken right out of the Ten Commandments -- in this case commandment number 3.

========================

What is the unchanging status of the Law according to Paul in Romans 7?

Romans 7

7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not covet.”

...

10 and this commandment, which was to result in life, proved to result in death for me;

11 for sin, taking an opportunity through the commandment, deceived me and through it killed me.

12 So then, the Law is holy, and the commandment is holy and righteous and good.

13 Therefore did that which is good become a cause of death for me? May it never be! Rather it was sin, in order that it might be shown to be sin by effecting my death through that which is good, so that through the commandment sin would become utterly sinful.

14 For we know that the Law is spiritual, but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.

[Robert]

You aren't keeping the law so stop the pretense. As Christ said,

Matt 23:11 The greatest among you will be your servant.12 For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted. 13 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. 15 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.

[Robert]

You aren't keeping the law so stop the pretense. As Christ said,

Matt 23:11 The greatest among you will be your servant.12 For whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and whoever humbles himself will be exalted. 13 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. 15 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are.

Why did Christ say to the legalists of His day, "You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces"? Because by the law no man will be justified? Why not? Romans 3:23 "All have sinned (past tense) and fall short (present, continuous tense) of the glory of God (His agape love).

Ellen White:

"It will be seen that the glory shining in the face of Jesus is the glory of self-sacrificing love."

So "the glory shining in the face of Jesus" is self-sacrificing love". Let's read on:

"In the light from Calvary it will be seen that the law of self-renouncing love is the law of life for earth and heaven; that the love which "seeketh not her own" has its source in the heart of God; and that in the meek and lowly One is manifested the character of Him who dwelleth in the light which no man can approach unto."

Are you falling short of that love? Then you aren't a law keeper in the true sense of that phrase!

[Gibs]

But Robert, we do keep His law if we truly do love Him with all our hearts and souls. It is proof we don't when we succumb to let another have our love and sin to please him.

Love, Christ in us, is our strength and stay from falling.

Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

We are enabled as was Timothy. We must set the will as flint to not give to Satan one little bit of our Love and please him.

1Ti 1:12 And I thank Christ Jesus our Lord, who hath enabled me, for that he counted me faithful, putting me into the ministry;

Php 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

It is Christ and your love to Him and Faith in His power in you that works, not you except for the gift of yourself to Him. Self is killed.

We need to die that death first and foremost.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

We must and can come and please God only, by loving Him with ALL the heart and soul.

[Robert]

Jude 1:24 Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy...

So you are faultless?

I believe you misunderstand Jude. Here, let me use Paul to set things straight:

Col 1:21 "And you, who once were alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now He (Christ) has reconciled you 22 in the body of His flesh through death, in order to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight-- 23 if indeed you continue [obeying the law perfectly]...."

Is that what Paul said? No!

Again, "He has reconciled 22 in the body of His flesh through death, to present you holy, and blameless, and above reproach in His sight-- 23 if indeed you continue in the faith, grounded and steadfast, and are not moved away from the hope of the gospel which you heard, which was preached to every creature under heaven, of which I, Paul, became a minister."

In other words by faith, in His flesh through death, Christ presents you faultless in Himself.

If Christ presented you before God's law you would never make it. Why? You aren't blameless in your performance. You are a sinner, bent-to-self, and therefore by the works of the law you would never, ever make it to heaven.

Therefore, the question is, is there any condemnation to the believer who is resting in Christ (as opposed to his own works) and yet finds himself often failing to measure up to the spirit of God's law?

The answer?

Romans 8:1 Therefore there is now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death....

Therefore, the man of Romans 7, is you...it is Richard, Gerry, BoyRyan, and many others including myself.

If not, then Ellen White's following statement is meaningless:

He who says, “I am holy, I am sinless,” is self-deceived. Some have said this, and some even dare to say, “I am Christ.” To entertain such a thought is blasphemy. Not to see the marked contrast between Christ and ourselves is not to know ourselves. He who does not abhor himself can not understand the meaning of redemption. RH Sep 25, 1900

[Gibs]

Robert, you don't get it. You refuse at any cost to see we are expected to be overcomers in the here and now or you will not be in the kingdom..

EGW also stated,

We have no hesitancy in telling you that in order to obtain the immortal inheritance and the eternal substance, you must be overcomers in this probationary life. Everything that blots and stains the soul must be removed, must be cleansed from the heart. We must know what it means to be a partaker of the divine nature, having escaped the corruptions that are in the world through lust. Are you willing to wage war against the lusts of the flesh? Are you ready to battle against the enemy of God and man? Satan is determined to enslave every soul if he can; for he is playing a desperate game to win the souls of men from Christ and eternal life. Will you permit him to steal from you the graces of the Spirit of God, and plant in you his own corrupt nature? or will you accept the great provision of salvation, and through the merits of the Infinite Sacrifice made in your behalf, become a partaker of the divine nature? God has given His only-begotten Son, that through His shame, suffering, and death, you might have glory, honor, and immortality.--Signs of the Times, June 15, 1891. {TDG 175.2}

Robert, that is being perfect in this our filthy sphere as He expects us to be. Noone is perfect as He is perfect in His sphere and He don't expect that.

No way is any able to say with truth, “I am holy, I am sinless,” as we all have fallen in sin and forgiven but that has no bearing on the fact that not of ourselves but Christ and His love in us we overcome our sin. We must not be as the Pharisee was but with bowed head as the Publican realize our lowliness. We have nothing of which to boast. It is not us that is able to do that work but Love and Christ in you. A love so great for Him that you "hate sin"! We must come in our experience to "hate sin."

Lu 18:13 And the publican, standing afar off, would not lift up so much as his eyes unto heaven, but smote upon his breast, saying, God be merciful to me a sinner.

Which was justified?

I am one as Paul who groans, "oh wretched man that I am" yes as in this life our sin is not erased yet. He reveals that of ourself we would do the the thing that we would not, but also brings out clear, Christ in you is your hope of glory.

Bro. Robert, EGW is not wrong, neither is Jesus, when He states,

Re 2:11 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

Surely you can't dispel hers and Jesus’ statement.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

Robert, you don't get it. You refuse at any cost to see we are expected to be overcomers in the here and now or you will not be in the kingdom..

No, Mr. law, we are not expected to be perfect (overcomers) otherwise Romans 8:1 would say there is condemnation to those who aren't overcomes, but it doesn't....

[Gibs]

Robert, the thing is if one walks after the Spirit He is an overcomer.

Ro 8:1 ¶ There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

While you got a hold of His Hand are you going to obey the flesh. You would have to purposely pull away.

As far as the law is concerned when we walk after the Spirit, Christ in you, it becomes a part of you that you love and is the pleasure to do. There is no yoke or galling about it.

Ps 119:97 MEM. O how love I thy law! it is my meditation all the day.

He in you and the law dwells in you too as He is the law.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

Ro 8:1 ¶ There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.

That second part was added by a scribe and it is not part of the original manuscripts.

You see the believer in Romans 7 is failing to fully live up to the law's demands. Romans 8:1 states that there is no condemnation to those who are in Christ by faith, but if you add "who walk not after the flesh" then that would negate the first part of Romans 8:1.

1] There's either no condemnation because of his position in Christ or

2] there's no condemnation because he is walking in the Spirit and therefore "the law" is being fulfilled.

If the latter then the man of Romans 7 stands condemned and there's no hope for the struggling sinner.

[Robert]

If the latter then the man of Romans 7 stands condemned and there's no hope for the struggling sinner.

That's why I oppose this idea that the man of Romans 7 is unconverted and lost.

Does Ellen White teach that believers - 7th-day Adventist believers - stand condemned since they are imperfect in their struggle with sin? Let's see:

The religious services, the prayers, the praise, the penitent confession of sin ascend from true believers as incense to the heavenly sanctuary; but passing through the corrupt channels of humanity, they are so defiled that unless purified by blood, they can never be of value with God. They ascend not in spotless purity, and unless the Intercessor who is at God’s right hand presents and purifies all by His righteousness, it is not acceptable to God. All incense from earthly tabernacles must be moist with the cleansing drops of the blood of Christ. He holds before the Father the censer of His own merits, in which there is no taint of earthly corruption. He gathers into this censer the prayers, the praise, and the confessions of His people, and with these He puts His own spotless righteousness. Then, perfumed with the merits of Christ’s propitiation, the incense comes up before God wholly and entirely acceptable. Then gracious answers are returned.

O, that all may see that everything in obedience, in penitence, in praise and thanksgiving must be placed upon the glowing fire of the righteousness of Christ. The fragrance of this righteousness ascends like a cloud around the mercy seat (MS 50, 1900).

"They [God's people] profess to obey the law of God; but have they kept its precepts? Have they not been lovers of self more than lovers of God? Have they not placed their own interests above His service? Have they not loved the things of the world? Look at the sins that have marked their lives. Behold their selfishness, their malice, their hatred of one another....But while the followers of Christ have sinned, they have not given themselves up to be controlled by the satanic agencies. They have repented of their sins and have sought the Lord in humility and contrition, and the divine Advocate pleads in their behalf. He who has been most abused by their ingratitude, who knows their sin and also their penitence, declares: “The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan. I gave My life for these souls. They are graven upon the palms of My hands. They may have imperfections of character; they may have failed in their endeavors; but they have repented, and I have forgiven and accepted them.” [PK 589]

[BobRyan]

James 2

8 If, however, you are fulfilling the royal law according to the Scripture, "YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF," you are doing well.

9 But if you show partiality, you are committing sin and are convicted by the law as transgressors.

10 For whoever keeps the whole law and yet stumbles in one point, he has become guilty of all.

11 For He who said, "DO NOT COMMIT ADULTERY," also said, "DO NOT COMMIT MURDER." Now if you do not commit adultery, but do commit murder, you have become a transgressor of the law.

12 So speak and so act as those who are to be judged by the law of liberty

1John 2

The Test of Knowing Him

3 Now by this we know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments.

4 He who says, “I know Him,” and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

5 But whoever keeps His word, truly the love of God is perfected in him. By this we know that we are in Him.

6 He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked.

John 14:15 "If you love Me KEEP My commandments"

John 15:14 "Love Me and KEEP My Commandments"

Taken right out of the Ten Commandments -- in this case commandment number 3.

========================

By contrast - some will stand up in bold defiance of that Law claiming that they do not have to keep it - no matter what the NT authors say to the contrary.

Free will - let each one be convinced in his own mind.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

That's why I oppose this idea that the man of Romans 7 is unconverted and lost.

In Romans 7 Paul deals with the problem of the lost person who is "alive apart from the law" thinking all is well but fully condemned.

Then he deals with the case of the new convert - the infant of Hebrews 5 who having just been born again - realizes that they have a problem - a problem solved by the solution given in Romans 8 with the result of the victory over sin described in Romans 6.

Paul surrounds Romans 7 with examples of victory over sin in Romans 6 and Romans 8. Which is in fact the expansion of victory over sin already introduced with Romans 2.

in Christ,

Bob

[Robert]

In Romans 7 Paul deals with the problem of the lost person....

Just stating this doesn't make it so. The context reveals the man of Romans 7 is converted and that there's no condemnation to those who are resting in Christ.

Apparently, Bob, you want a reward! Apparently you think your are morally superior to the man of Romans 7. That type of thinking will sooner or later place you in the "lost person" category.

[Robert]

Romans 7 is the topic

[BobRyan]

Sadly for the snippet-view - Romans 7 is enclosed on both sides by victory over sin chapters in Romans 6 and Romans 8.

Thus Romans 7 shows us a problem for the lost person who is "ALIVE apart from the law" and then the problem for the newborn - newly saved Christian who having just become saved is instantly confronted by the need for victory over sin.

The incentive at that point to fully appreciate the victory over sin solution, the victory over sin doctrine - Paul's teaching given in the two enclosing chapters for chapter 7, the context for chapter 7 - is impossible to miss.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Originally Posted By: Robert

That's why I oppose this idea that the man of Romans 7 is unconverted and lost.

In Romans 7 Paul deals with the problem of the lost person who is "alive apart from the law" thinking all is well but fully condemned.

Then he deals with the case of the new convert - the infant of Hebrews 5 who having just been born again - realizes that they have a problem - a problem solved by the solution given in Romans 8 with the result of the victory over sin described in Romans 6.

Paul surrounds Romans 7 with examples of victory over sin in Romans 6 and Romans 8. Which is in fact the expansion of victory over sin already introduced with Romans 2.

[Gerr]

How do you think the man of Rom 7 who keeps on doing the evil that he doesn't want compare with the people that Paul describes in 2 Tim 3:1-5? ESV | ‎2 Ti 3:1 "But understand this, that in the last days there will come times of difficulty. ‎2 For people will be lovers of self, lovers of money, proud, arrogant, abusive, disobedient to their parents, ungrateful, unholy, ‎3 heartless, unappeasable, slanderous, without self-control, brutal, not loving good, ‎4 treacherous, reckless, swollen with conceit, lovers of pleasure rather than lovers of God, ‎5 having the appearance of godliness, but denying its power. Avoid such people."

Can you not see the difference between a believer who is earnestly warring against the world, the devil, and the flesh, but who now & then gets bruised, knocked down, but gets up again and again, and the man of Rom 7 who just "keep on doing the evil" that he doesn't to do?

[Robert]

I wish you guys could think outside the box of traditionalism. Clearly Paul had the spirituality of the law in mind when he stated, "the good that I would do, I do not".

Are you fellows telling me that you are living Christ's life (which answers the spirit of the law, not just the letter)?

Answer the question guys....

[Robert]

Indeed - my response relies heavily on the reader - actually reading Romans 7

Bob, you are legalist...you will probably always be a legalist and the best thing that can happen to you is for you to be humbled like Job. But then again God has different ways to humble the proud, Pharisaical type. Your day is coming. I've already been there, done that self-righteous dung and yes I was humbled.

Luke 18:14 I tell you that this man (the sinner), rather than the other (the Pharisee), went home justified before God. For everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."

[Guest]

Originally Posted By: Robert

That's why I oppose this idea that the man of Romans 7 is unconverted and lost.

In Romans 7 Paul deals with the problem of the lost person who is "alive apart from the law" thinking all is well but fully condemned.

Then he deals with the case of the new convert - the infant of Hebrews 5 who having just been born again - realizes that they have a problem - a problem solved by the solution given in Romans 8 with the result of the victory over sin described in Romans 6.

Paul surrounds Romans 7 with examples of victory over sin in Romans 6 and Romans 8. Which is in fact the expansion of victory over sin already introduced with Romans 2.

in Christ,

Bob

That's right. Robert, you should listen to Bob, because he has got it right. Study it out for a change.

:)

[Gerr]

I wish you guys could think outside the box of traditionalism. Clearly Paul had the spirituality of the law in mind when he stated, "the good that I would do, I do not".

Are you fellows telling me that you are living Christ's life (which answers the spirit of the law, not just the letter)?

Answer the question guys....

Tradition? I haven't been reading any. I've just been studying my Bible. You still haven't answered my question - how is the man of Rom 7 any different from the rocky soil hearer, the 5 foolish virgins, the man who builds on sand, the man with a dead faith per James, and the man who "has a form of godliness but denying its power" per Paul?

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

I wish you guys could think outside the box of traditionalism. Clearly Paul had the spirituality of the law in mind when he stated, "the good that I would do, I do not".

Are you fellows telling me that you are living Christ's life (which answers the spirit of the law, not just the letter)?

Answer the question guys....

Tradition? I haven't been reading any. I've just been studying my Bible. You still haven't answered my question - how is the man of Rom 7 any different from the rocky soil hearer, the 5 foolish virgins, the man who builds on sand, the man with a dead faith per James, and the man who "has a form of godliness but denying its power" per Paul?

But Gerry, Romans 7 isn't looking at your questions above. Romans 7 is dealing with a believer (not a fake) who delights in God's law, but is failing to live Christ's life.

[BobRyan]

In Romans 7 Paul deals with the problem of the lost person who is "alive apart from the law" thinking all is well but fully condemned.

Then he deals with the case of the new convert - the infant of Hebrews 5 who having just been born again - realizes that they have a problem - a problem solved by the solution given in Romans 8 with the result of the victory over sin described in Romans 6.

Sadly for the snippet-view - Romans 7 is enclosed on both sides by victory over sin chapters in Romans 6 and Romans 8.

Thus Romans 7 shows us a problem for the lost person who is "ALIVE apart from the law" and then the problem for the newborn - newly saved Christian who having just become saved is instantly confronted by the need for victory over sin - and proclaims "Oh wretched man that I am who shall set me free".

The incentive at that point to fully appreciate the victory over sin solution, the victory over sin doctrine - Paul's teaching given in the two enclosing chapters for chapter 7, the context for chapter 7 - is impossible to miss.

hence the Romans 1,2 and 7,8,9 thread.

Bob, you are legalist...you will probably always be a legalist

Robert it appears that when you run out of Bible support for one of your preferences - you simply resort to name-calling as if we were all 5 year olds on the playground and doing such a thing would be sufficient for some.

Why do that? It does not work in this context.

Why not read the text instead? Telling yourself a story is not going to suffice as a good replacement for accepting the Word of God in scripture.

in Christ,

Bob