Romans 7

[Gibs]

I would remind all here that Paul in the first vers of Romans 7:1, says,

Ro 7:1 ¶ Know ye not, brethren, (for I speak to them that know the law,) how that the law hath dominion over a man as long as he liveth?

This is a chapter that can be taken by some one way and to others another way. It is not a salvation issue so I reccomend the hatchet be buried and don't mark the spot.

I suppose the way I take it is in opposition to some and for me I care not a lot how it is taken.

The main thing is to heed the council Paul is giving here.

This chapter to me presents no problems and my stance on it is mine and you can have yours, I care not to bother any here any further on this.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

Robert it appears that when you run out of Bible support for one of your preferences - you simply resort to name-calling as if we were all 5 year olds on the playground and doing such a thing would be sufficient for some.

Why do that? It does not work in this context.

Why not read the text instead? Telling yourself a story is not going to suffice as a good replacement for accepting the Word of God in scripture.

No, Bob, you are what you are....You are in danger of falling from grace because you teach the heresy of salvation by law...by conduct. You are pure Catholic in your doctrine and you will join them and persecute those who are resting in Christ. I can promise you this, unless, you repent.

Gal 5:4 You who are trying to be justified by law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

[BobRyan]

In Romans 7 Paul deals with the problem of the lost person who is "alive apart from the law" thinking all is well but fully condemned.

Then he deals with the case of the new convert - the infant of Hebrews 5 who having just been born again - realizes that they have a problem - a problem solved by the solution given in Romans 8 with the result of the victory over sin described in Romans 6.

Sadly for the snippet-view - Romans 7 is enclosed on both sides by victory over sin chapters in Romans 6 and Romans 8.

Thus Romans 7 shows us a problem for the lost person who is "ALIVE apart from the law" and then the problem for the newborn - newly saved Christian who having just become saved is instantly confronted by the need for victory over sin - and proclaims "Oh wretched man that I am who shall set me free".

The incentive at that point to fully appreciate the victory over sin solution, the victory over sin doctrine - Paul's teaching given in the two enclosing chapters for chapter 7, the context for chapter 7 - is impossible to miss.

hence the Romans 1,2 and 7,8,9 thread.

[Robert]

Bob, where were you when I went over Romans 7:7-24? Perhaps you were sleeping? Anyway, I challenge you to go verse by verse, starting with Romans 7:7, until we get to verse 24. That's in context.

Don't do this cut & paste; forcing the Bible to say something different.

Can you do it? No! But I'd like to see you try.

Let's start here:

But now back to Romans 7:7

You see Paul will use the 10th commandment to prove the spirituality of the law. Why? Because coveting is not an act, but a desire of the mind & heart. Hence the law requires your thoughts to be perfect & your motives to be pure.

verse 7

"What shall we say then ? Is the Law sin ? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law"

Why did Paul ask this question?

Because in verse 6 he said that we had to be delivered from under the law.

Is the law bad? No, may it never be. The law is good...it's holy, but we are sinners and to be under the law means we must die. That's bad. So the law points us to Christ that we might become justified by faith (see Gal 3:24)

"for I (Paul) would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, "YOU SHALL NOT COVET."

When you read the law,

"Honor your father and your mother"

"You shall not murder"

"You shall not commit adultery"

"You shall not steal"

"You shall not bear false witness"

these sins are outward...they involve action.

But coveting is not an action - it's a thought - a desire of the heart & mind.

[Guest]

No, Bob, you are what you are... you teach the heresy ... You are pure Catholic...

[Robert]

Romans 7:7. RLH....Stay focused....In fact, why don't you try to defend your position? Stay with the context or I'll accuse you of being dishonest. You must stay with the context....

[Robert]

Okay, let's start over. I'll use the NASB:

Rom 7:6 But now we have been released from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound, so that we serve in newness of the Spirit and not in oldness of the letter.

7 What shall we say then? Is the Law sin? May it never be! On the contrary, I would not have come to know sin except through the Law; for I would not have known about coveting if the Law had not said, “You shall not covet.”

Two things:

In verse 6 Paul makes the statement that believers have been released from the law.

In verse 7 he asks the question, "Is the law sin?"

Why would Paul ask such?

Because, for some reason, we had to be delivered from under the law. Is something wrong with the law?

"Is the law sin"? Is it bad? No!

If it wasn't for the law, especially the 10th commandment, Paul (as a Pharisee) would have never known sin. That's what he is saying....

What's so great about the 10th commandment that it took this commandment to bring the Saul the Pharisee to his knees?

[Guest]

Stay with the context or I'll accuse you of being dishonest.

Isn't that what you do anyway? I guess you can accuse all you want, but that doesn't make me dishonest.

[Robert]

What's so great about the 10th commandment that it took this commandment to bring the Saul the Pharisee to his knees?

"When he (Paul) saw the spiritual nature of the law, sin appeared in its true hideousness, and his self-esteem (pride) was gone." {SC 29.3}

That's what Ellen says. Let's see if she is right.

So far we have discovered that we had to be delivered from under the law. The reason, so far, especially involves the 10th commandment - "You shall not covet".

Romans 7:8 But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead.

What does this mean?

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Stay with the context or I'll accuse you of being dishonest.

Isn't that what you do anyway? I guess you can accuse all you want, but that doesn't make me dishonest.

Sure it does, if you can't keep to the context you are being dishonest to what Paul is stating....

[Robert]

Romans 7:8 But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead.

What does this mean?

[BobRyan]

Romans 7:7. RLH....Stay focused....In fact, why don't you try to defend your position? Stay with the context or I'll accuse you of being dishonest. ....

Your solution to problems seems to circle back to you calling someone some list of names.

Why keep doing that?

Why not just focus on the topic?

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

In Romans 7 Paul deals with the problem of the lost person who is "alive apart from the law" thinking all is well but fully condemned.

Then he deals with the case of the new convert - the infant of Hebrews 5 who having just been born again - realizes that they have a problem - a problem solved by the solution given in Romans 8 with the result of the victory over sin described in Romans 6.

Sadly for the snippet-view - Romans 7 is enclosed on both sides by victory over sin chapters in Romans 6 and Romans 8.

Thus Romans 7 shows us a problem for the lost person who is "ALIVE apart from the law" and then the problem for the newborn - newly saved Christian who having just become saved is instantly confronted by the need for victory over sin - and proclaims "Oh wretched man that I am who shall set me free".

The incentive at that point to fully appreciate the victory over sin solution, the victory over sin doctrine - Paul's teaching given in the two enclosing chapters for chapter 7, the context for chapter 7 - is impossible to miss.

hence the Romans 1,2 and 7,8,9 thread.

[Robert]

You are simply cutting & pasting certain selected texts to make a theology up that Paul does not indorse.

Again, back to Romans 7:8

"But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead."

What does this mean?

If you can't go verse by verse to discover Paul's meaning then you can make him say anything your heart desires. This is not proper or ethical Bible study and you know it.

[BobRyan]

You are simply cutting & pasting certain selected texts

[Robert]

Romans 7:8 "But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead."

We have already discovered that sin goes beyond an act, it’s a cherished desire. Hence "you shall not covet". According to Paul anything outside God's agape love is sin. Hence if there's self-seeking in your life - if there's self-love in your life the spirit of the law brings this out in the open.

Ellen White: "The commandments of God are exceeding broad, and are discerners of the thoughts and intents of the heart."

The law doesn't only look at your outward acts - it also looks are your thoughts & motives. For example, if I hate you because you wiped out my family the law defines my hate (which is a cherished desire) as murder. If I look at a woman (not her face, but elsewhere) as far as the law is concerned I have committed adultery with her. If I give all my possessions to the poor (which is unheard of) to get something in return (recognition or gain) then according to the law I am being selfish.

So Paul here in Romans 7:7 isn't dealing with outward actions, but the motive behind those actions.

In Paul's preconverted state, as a pharisee, he considered himself "blameless" before God's law (see Phil 3:6), but when the spirit of the law exposed his true motives he found himself to be a sinner.

Here's Ellen White:

"Paul says that as ‘touching the righteousness which is in the law’—as far as outward acts were concerned—he was ‘blameless’ (Philippians 3:6); but when the spiritual character of the law was discerned, he saw himself a sinner. Judged by the letter of the law as men apply it to the outward life, he had abstained from sin; but when he looked into the depths of its holy precepts, and saw himself as God saw him, he bowed in humiliation and confessed his guilt. He says, ‘I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.’ Romans 7:9. When he saw the spiritual nature of the law, sin appeared in its true hideousness, and his self-esteem was gone." Steps to Christ, 29, 30.

Did you get that? Notice the time factor: "When"

"When the spiritual character of the law was discerned, he saw himself a sinner."

"When he looked into the depths of its holy precepts, and saw himself as God saw him"

Before Paul viewed himself as righteous, but after he viewed himself a sinner. Something changed. That change was conversion!

[BobRyan]

Here's Ellen White:

"Paul says that as ‘touching the righteousness which is in the law’—as far as outward acts were concerned—he was ‘blameless’ (Philippians 3:6); but when the spiritual character of the law was discerned, he saw himself a sinner. Judged by the letter of the law as men apply it to the outward life, he had abstained from sin; but when he looked into the depths of its holy precepts, and saw himself as God saw him, he bowed in humiliation and confessed his guilt. He says, ‘I was alive without the law once: but when the commandment came, sin revived, and I died.’ Romans 7:9. When he saw the spiritual nature of the law, sin appeared in its true hideousness, and his self-esteem was gone." Steps to Christ, 29, 30.

Did you get that? Notice the time factor: "When"

"When the spiritual character of the law was discerned, he saw himself a sinner."

"When he looked into the depths of its holy precepts, and saw himself as God saw him"

Before Paul viewed himself as righteous, but after he viewed himself a sinner. Something changed. That change was conversion!

As "Already pointed out" - Paul starts with "I WAS ALIVE apart from the Law" in his lost state.

But at conversion - the infant Paul - the new born babe of Hebrews 5 - is confronted by the problem of "sin in me at war with the law of my mind".

So the victory over sin solution of Romans 8 is immediately presented by Paul to the reader - just as it had been in Romans 6, where Paul insisted that victory over sin for the saved saint is an absolute must!

2Cor 10:4-5 tells us that the weapons of our warfare against sin are divinely powerful for the tearing down of strongholds - "taking every THOUGHT captive to the obedience of Christ".

Paul addresses the subject of victory over sin in Romans 2 and 6 and 8 and in 2Cor 10 at a level that the Romans 8:7 person will flee every time. I think we can all agree with that point.

in Christ,

Bob

[Robert]

Romans 7:8 "But sin, taking opportunity through the commandment, produced in me coveting of every kind; for apart from the Law sin is dead."

So what does this mean?

Paul's sinful nature (and we all share Adam's nature after the fall) deceived him because he didn't understand that the law also has a spiritual side and therefore it requires perfect motives and thoughts. Hence it was through the 10th commandment that this was revealed to him.

So before Paul's conversion his own nature (sin) took advantage of his limited knowledge of the law and therefore his nature produced in him coveting of every kind. Why? Because outside a greater knowledge of the law he thought he had abstained from all sin (i.e., sin was dead)

[Robert]

As "Already pointed out" - Paul starts with "I WAS ALIVE apart from the Law" in his lost state.

[Robert]

verse 9 Once I was alive apart from the law; but when the commandment came, sin sprang to life and I died.

Again, Paul as a Pharisee (unsaved) thought that eternal life could be gained through the keeping of the law. Keep in mind that the law says, "obey and live". Since he thought he was obeying the law (i.e., he was blameless) he thought that he could be justified by the law and therefore again life.

verse 10 I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life (obey and live) actually brought death (disobey and die).

11 For sin, seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment, deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death.

This is a repeat of verse 8.

[Robert]

verse 12 So then, the law is holy, and the commandment is holy, righteous and good.

verse 13 Therefore did that which is good (the law) become a cause of death for me? May it never be!

In Romans chapter 6:23 Paul tells us that sin pays in death. Sin produces death. "The wages of sin is death". So the law doesn't cause the death of the sinner.

Now "yes" - there's the curse of the law, but the curse doesn't cause death. The curse of the law is no hope of a resurrection. It's goodbye to sin forever. When sin produces death the law doesn't permit sin to live again.

But in order that sin might be recognized as sin, it (sin) produced death in me through what was good, so that through the commandment (context: the 10th) sin might become utterly sinful.

An understanding that sin, through the 10th commandment, is more than just outward acts makes sin become utterly sinful. Hence the law is spiritual also....

[Robert]

verse 14 For we know that the Law is spiritual,

The law is more than it appears! The law is spiritual as we have seen in the preceding verses.

but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin (born bent-to-self).

In other words the law demands agape love, but I am born in love with myself. I have self-love and the law demands agape love in order to meet its spiritual demands.

[Gibs]

For sure, the old man, self must be killed, crucified and buried and no marker put up that he can ever be found again.

To Love our God and Saviour First and Best and our fellow man as ourself and we will do no wrong. True Love does no wrong. This is the reason no fault can be found in our God.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

verse 14 For we know that the Law is spiritual,

The law is more than it appears! The law is spiritual as we have seen in the preceding verses.

but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin (born bent-to-self).

In other words the law demands agape love, but I am born in love with myself. I have self-love and the law demands agape love in order to meet its spiritual demands.

Now, with the context fully in front of us, we can precede to verse 15

For that which I do, I know not. For what I would do, that do I not; but what I hate, that I do.

The man of Romans 7 wants to keep the spirituality of the law. He wants to live a selfless life of agape love, but he finds himself coming up short.

verse 16 If then I do that which I would not, I consent unto the law, that it is good.

Again, nothing wrong with the law. It's good, but the law can't help me when it comes to my motives and my thoughts.

Maybe that's why Paul said in Gal 3:21

For if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should then have come by the law.

So the law can't help me live a perfect life inwardly. He can't defeat my selfish nature - i.e., what I am by birth.

verse 17 Now then it is no more I that do it (fails), but sin that dwelleth in me.

In other words I want to live a life of agape, but because of my bent-to-self I fall short.

The man of Romans 7 is not trying to legalistically keep the law to be saved. He has been converted and realizes the impossibility to saving himself through the law, yet his mind is in harmony with the law because of conversion (we will see this in a moment)

Now, what does that mean - "sin the dwells in me"?

Paul is referring to our "bent-to-self" our iniquity. We can do good deeds outwardly, but if the motive is not right the deed is made void - it is worthless in the eyes of God.

So the problem is not the law - it is my bent to self that I still retain after conversion.

[Robert]

18 For I know that nothing good dwells in me, that is, in my flesh; for the willing is present in me, but the doing of the good is not.

You see a Pharisee would never say "there's nothing good in me". No way! It was before conversion that Paul said, "as to the righteousness in the law, blameless". Now he says I know I am I'm rotten by birth.

19 For the good that I want, I do not do, but I do the very evil that I do not want. 20 But if I am doing the very thing I do not want, I am no longer the one doing it, but sin which dwells in me.

You see he wants to live a life of agape, but his nature is bent-to-self...his nature is incompatible with his converted mind.