Question about Sabbath

[Gibs]

Mt 5:17 ¶ Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

He fulfilled the law by keeping it and He showed us it could be done with His Divine Nature in you, the same power He had.

"Our Saviour laid aside his royal robe and kingly crown, and left the glories of heaven to come to this world. He clothed his divinity with humanity. He designed that the fallen humanity might touch his humanity, and receive from him power to be partakers of the divine nature, and to overcome the corruption that is in the world through lust. He is our pattern, and I beseech of you, my brethren, to lay hold of the power that is ours through the union of the divine and the human in Christ. He overcame for us, and we may claim his merits. We may plead his power, his virtue. And as we co-operate with him, and live in harmony with his law, he will cleanse our natures from sin, and impart to us his righteousness." {RH, July 16, 1908 par. 2}

"He clothed His Divinity with humanity, we must assimilate His Divine Nature in us or of ourselves we are nothing against the wiles of the Devil.

"That men may be prepared to stand in the Judgment, the message commands them to “fear God, and give glory to him,” “and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.” The result of an acceptance of these messages is given in the words, “Here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.” In order to be prepared for the Judgment, it is necessary that men should keep the law of God. That law will be the standard of character in the Judgment. The apostle Paul declares, “As many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law; . . . in the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ.” And he says that “the doers of the law shall be justified.” [Romans 2:12-16.] Faith is essential in order to the keeping of the law of God; for “without faith it is impossible to please him.” And “whatsoever is not of faith is sin.” [Hebrews 11:6; Romans 14:23.] {GC88 435.2}

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

Romans 6:15 What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace?

And how does the context define the law? He doesn't list the commandments until Romans chapter 13:9-10

9 The commandments, "Do not commit adultery," "Do not murder," "Do not steal," "Do not covet," and whatever other commandment there may be, are summed up in this one rule: "Love your neighbor as yourself." 10 Love does no harm to its neighbor. Therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

And of course Paul's epic statement:

Gal 5:14 The entire law is summed (keep the first four commandments and)"Love your neighbor as yourself"?

No,

14 The entire law is summed up in a single command: "Love your neighbor as yourself."

[Robert]

He fulfilled the law by keeping it and He showed us it could be done with His Divine Nature in you, the same power He had.

Is that the primary reason Christ came?

[bonnie]

Does the guy who has accepted Christ through nature (see Romans 1:20) start keeping the Sabbath? No! Does he know intuitively that murder, adultery and stealing are wrong? Yes....

Not necessarily so. Native Americans stole from one another and killed each other.

It was a sign of bravery.At least one tribe sacrificed captives taken for "religious" purposes"

[Robert]

1 John 3:23 And this is his command: to believe in the name of his Son, Jesus Christ, and to love one another as he commanded us.

This says it all!

Place your faith in Christ. He is your ticket to heaven. He is your ticket out of the grave. He is your ticket ticket to immortality and perfection. Our job is to continue in the faith. As we do we begin to experience His agape love, albeit imperfectly.

Ellen White:

Our earthly life, however long, honored, or useful it may be, is but childhood, frail, imperfect, and undeveloped. Manhood, with its full, perfect, glorious development, will come, when, freed from the taint of sin, we stand among the redeemed throng. Then we shall enjoy a life which measures with the life of God, and through everlasting ages we shall go on increasing in wisdom and knowledge.

There was not one trace of selfishness in the life of Christ. All who are laborers together with God will have the same spirit (attitude) as their Master had. They will be continually growing away from selfishness, and renouncing self-indulgence, even in things that had once appeared innocent to them. . .

Notice it doesn't say they are completely selfless, but rather they are becoming less selfish.

You see the law demands one thing: Perfect, unblemished agape love. No self-love...no self-seeking...no self anything, but you must deny self. So we can't remain under law or we've had it.

Christ delivered us from under the law, not because the law is bad, but because we are sinners and will meet the curse of the law if we remain under it.

As we rest in His finished work we will begin to become more like Him, but please don't think you are Him. That's blaspheme:

Many see much to admire in the life of Christ. But true love for him can never dwell in the heart of the self-righteous. Not to see our own deformity is not to see the beauty of Christ’s character. When we are fully awake to our own sinfulness, we shall appreciate Christ. The more humble are our views of ourselves, the more clearly we shall see the spotless character of Jesus. He who says, “I am holy, I am sinless,” is self-deceived. Some have said this, and some even dare to say, “I am Christ.” To entertain such a thought is blasphemy. Not to see the marked contrast between Christ and ourselves is not to know ourselves. He who does not abhor himself can not understand the meaning of redemption. RH Sep 25, 1900

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Does the guy who has accepted Christ through nature (see Romans 1:20) start keeping the Sabbath? No! Does he know intuitively that murder, adultery and stealing are wrong? Yes....

Not necessarily so. Native Americans stole from one another and killed each other.

It was a sign of bravery.At least one tribe sacrificed captives taken for "religious" purposes"

How do you know who is who? If Christ was in the heart they knew it was wrong.

[BobRyan]

And how does the context define the law? He doesn't list the commandments until Romans chapter 13:9-10

Unless you read the book of Romans.

In that case you find that the TEN commandments are quoted from in both Romans 7 and Romans 13 AND that Paul affirms "The LAW of GOD" not "the downsized edited law of god" in Rom 3:31 "Do we then make VOID the Law of God by our faith? God forbid! in fact we ESTABLISH the Law of God"

Thus when we find in 1Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" we can believe that Paul really means it.

And in Mark 7 when Jesus quotes the 5th commandment and then argues that the commandments of God are not to be set aside for the traditions of men - we need not "imagine a downsized Bible" consisting of only one commandment (the 5th one in that case) -

I think everyone here sees this point clearly. Nothing new here.

in Christ,

Bob

[bonnie]

Some people actually believe in observing the Sabbath,are thankful for it,as opposed to those that seem to think it some kind of a drudgery and punishment,or a sign others are trying to work their way to heaven.

[BobRyan]

No such "just the last six commandments" statement in all of scripture when it comes to the Jer 31:31-33 (Hebrews 8) New Covenant where God promises to write His Laws on our hearts and minds.

What is really interesting is that non-SDAs such as R.C Sproul, D.L Moody, Andy Stanley, Charles Stanley and in fact the majority of those in Christendom get this point easily.

This is - the easy part. No wonder the Seventh-day Adventist church is so clear on that point.

'What matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God' 1Cor 7:19

[bonnie]

Personally,when I listen to those that like to pint out

We don't Have to Observe Sabbath

We don't Have to pay tithe

We don't have to be baptized

indicates to me it was a burden when they did and assume everyone else does so because they have to. Then we find a way around the "have to"

[Gibs]

The Holy Seventh Day Sabath is a Feast Day. Yes a Spiritual Feast as He has come to tabernacle with by Spirit in a Special way.

It is wonderful to take a day apart and be with the One Who Loves You Most of All.

Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Gibs]

Sunday is the day of the sun God Satan, Sabbath is the Holy day of Yahweh.

Sunday is Satan's mark, Sabbath is the Mark of Yahweh.

Isa 58:13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:

And John echoed it.

Re 1:10 I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet,

What day is the Lord's day?, the Sabbath of course.

Mt 5:17 ¶ Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil.

Mt 5:18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled.[/color]

The truth is not hard to find,IF you truly want it!

Joh 16:13 [color:#FF0000]Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[JoeMo]

Quote:

It is what MOTIVATES a person that makes all the difference and it not necessarily is a difference between right and wrong.

I'm done arguing for the week. Time to rest in the Lord - not because I HAVE to, but because I WANT to and LIKE to ...

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Gibs

He fulfilled the law by keeping it and He showed us it could be done with His Divine Nature in you, the same power He had.

Is that the primary reason Christ came?

Yes?

[Robert]

Thus when we find in 1Cor 7:19 "what matters is KEEPING the Commandments of God" we can believe that Paul really means it.

Well, again, Paul is speaking of the rules (commands) concerning sexuality/marriage here:

1 Cor 7:1 Now for the matters you wrote about: “It is good for a man not to have sexual relations with a woman.” 2 But since sexual immorality is occurring, each man should have sexual relations with his own wife, and each woman with her own husband. 3 The husband should fulfill his marital duty to his wife, and likewise the wife to her husband. 4 The wife does not have authority over her own body but yields it to her husband. In the same way, the husband does not have authority over his own body but yields it to his wife. 5 Do not deprive each other except perhaps by mutual consent and for a time, so that you may devote yourselves to prayer. Then come together again so that Satan will not tempt you because of your lack of self-control. 6 I say this as a concession, not as a command. 7 I wish that all of you were as I am. But each of you has your own gift from God; one has this gift, another has that.

8 Now to the unmarried[a] and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I do. 9 But if they cannot control themselves, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

10 To the married I give this command (not I, but the Lord): A wife must not separate from her husband. 11 But if she does, she must remain unmarried or else be reconciled to her husband. And a husband must not divorce his wife.

12 To the rest I say this (I, not the Lord): If any brother has a wife who is not a believer and she is willing to live with him, he must not divorce her. 13 And if a woman has a husband who is not a believer and he is willing to live with her, she must not divorce him. 14 For the unbelieving husband has been sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife has been sanctified through her believing husband. Otherwise your children would be unclean, but as it is, they are holy.

15 But if the unbeliever leaves, let it be so. The brother or the sister is not bound in such circumstances; God has called us to live in peace. 16 How do you know, wife, whether you will save your husband? Or, how do you know, husband, whether you will save your wife?

17 Nevertheless, each person should live as a believer in whatever situation the Lord has assigned to them, just as God has called them. This is the rule I lay down in all the churches. 18 Was a man already circumcised when he was called? He should not become uncircumcised. Was a man uncircumcised when he was called? He should not be circumcised. 19 Circumcision is nothing and uncircumcision is nothing. Keeping God’s commands is what counts [commands concerning sexuality/marriage]. 20 Each person should remain in the situation they were in when God called them.

[Gibs]

He came Robert to make a way that we too could have His power in us to walk as He showed us it could be done.

That is and was the purpose He came to do, that we too could be overcomers.

He did not come to make a way to save us in sin, but to save us from committing sin.

1Pe 4:1 Forasmuch then as Christ hath suffered for us in the flesh, arm yourselves likewise with the same mind: for he that hath suffered in the flesh hath ceased from sin;

1Jo 2:4 He that saith, I know him, and keepeth not his commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

He came Robert to make a way that we too could have His power in us to walk as He showed us it could be done.

Really? Well, that's legalism. That means everyone that dies who hasn't experienced total victory over every sin (especially the love of self) will not make it to heaven!

This isn't good news - at best it is good advice, but for many it's a yoke of bondage. It means I have no assurance and I must constantly look at my law performance for my standing before God. That is terrible and it is also heresy. That's worse then what Roman teaches. It's pretty much Pharisaism, with a twist (Christ), which ends up with what the Judaizers taught.

[Gibs]

Where is your faith Robert that with Christ in you that you can't put away your sin. There is only one reason, that is if one don't want to.

Who and what do you love most, Him, doing His will in love for Him or the sins that you don't want to put away. One must come to REALLY HATE SIN!

Ro 6:1 ¶ What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

Ro 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Take a hold of the way He has made and it is easy, no yoke to it, He will strengthen you if you will allow it to do His entire will.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

Stop it Gibs....Stop preaching heresy. You are causing souls to turn from Christ because of this perfectionist BS that you teach.

You are just like the Pharisees of old: Matt 23:13 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces (i.e., you make it impossible through your works program). You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. 15 "Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are~!

[John317]

Originally Posted By: Gibs

He came Robert to make a way that we too could have His power in us to walk as He showed us it could be done.

Really? Well, that's legalism. That means everyone that dies who hasn't experienced total victory over every sin (especially the love of self) will not make it to heaven!

This isn't good news - at best it is good advice, but for many it's a yoke of bondage.

It isn't Good News, Robert, if you are given a plain view of your filth but are then left to wallow in it. The true gospel not only shows us our filth but it provides forgiveness AND cleansing from all unrighteousness.

Romans 6 and 8 shows that God does not leave us as prisoners of sin. The Scriptures teach that, through the power of God in the gospel, believers become slaves of righteousness.

[John317]

Stop it Gibs....Stop preaching heresy. You are causing souls to turn from Christ because of this perfectionist BS that you teach.

And you, Robert, are causing people to believe they MUST go on practicing sin and that Christ has no power to keep them from it.

According to that view, the One who said, "Go and sin no more," has no power to help us obey His commandment. It is definitely bad news.

This is not "perfectionism" but is the plain teaching of Scripture.

Romans 6:1-2

What shall we say then? Are we to continue in sin that grace may abound? [2] By no means! How can we who died to sin still live in it?

Romans 6:15

What then? Are we to sin because we are not under law but under grace? By no means!

Jude 1:24

Now to him who is able to keep you from stumbling and to present you blameless before the presence of his glory with great joy,

Romans 8:3-4

For God has done what the law, weakened by the flesh, could not do. By sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh and for sin, he condemned sin in the flesh, [4] in order that the righteous requirement of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not according to the flesh but according to the Spirit.

2 Peter 1:3-11

According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: [4] Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. [5] And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; [6] And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; [7] And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. [8] For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. [9] But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. [10] Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: [11] For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Rev. 3:21

To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne.

1 Cor. 6:9-11

Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, [10] nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. [11] And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.

[Robert]

It isn't Good News, Robert, if you are given a plain view of your filth but are then left to wallow in it. The true gospel not only shows us our filth but it provides forgiveness AND cleansing from all unrighteousness.

Here's the exact quote:

1 John 1:5 This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 6 If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. 7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin. 8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.

"Purifies us from all sin", yet we can't claim to be "without sin". Is that a contradiction? Even Ellen White said, ". He who says, 'I am holy', 'I am sinless,' is self-deceived. Some have said this, and some even dare to say, “I am Christ.” ... Not to see the marked contrast between Christ and ourselves is not to know ourselves."

So since the Bible can't contradict itself we must read it as follows:

7 But if we walk in the light (remain in Him by faith)...the blood of Jesus (His life laid down in death - i.e., the doing & dying of Christ), his Son, purifies us from all sin (i.e., He imputes to us His righteousness) 8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves.

The above isn't saying we are sinless, we are Holy.

I'll agree with you that we are growing, but growth isn't perfection and perfection is what the law demands. Anything outside perfection is sin and therefore we can't be under law and expect heaven.

[Robert]

"the unrighteous" who "will not inherit the Kingdom of God" and a righteous sinner who WILL, inherit the Kingdom of God" and in fact HAS ALREADY inherited it in Jesus Christ...

Bingo, yes.

[Robert]

According to that view, the One who said, "Go and sin no more," has no power to help us obey His commandment. It is definitely bad news.

I never said that, John. God's changed me and I am glad of it. My wife especially! However that doesn't mean I can stand in front of God's law and state that I am perfectly in harmony with all of its demands.

So yes, its good news that we can grow, but the law doesn't care about partial righteousness, it demands perfect, unblemished righteousness in thought and deed.

And Gibs, just like the law, demands that we obtain the victory over all sin. Well, that's good advice, in fact I would love it if we all followed the spirit of the law, "you shall love your neighbor as you love yourself", but I have yet to find a church where its members are living for others only with no self-interests.

So it would be good news if we were completely selfless and all of us were reflecting God's agape love perfectly, but we aren't. Therefore it is not good news for Gibs to tell us to overcome all sin (selfishness) or we can forget heaven.

That message places a yoke of bondage on the necks of believers and it takes their eyes of Jesus Christ and His righteousness and focuses it on themselves and their performance. This is what leads to legalism and coldness in the church.

The good news is that "in Christ" I have been delivered from under the law and that "in Him" I am complete. That's the good news!

Now, as I remain in Him by faith, a change begins in me so that I begin to reflect Him more and more, but that change doesn't make me righteous before the law. Why?

"Sanctification (growing in grace) is not the work of a moment, an hour, a day, but of a lifetime....So long as Satan reigns, we shall have self to subdue, besetting sins to overcome; so long as life shall last, there will be no stopping place, no point which we can reach and say, I have fully attained."

So while it's great that I grow in grace (that's good news for those around me), it's not good news that I will never attain to perfection. That's what the law demands after all. And if I do not overcome all sin then no heaven for me. That's bad news for me.

So when Gibs says you must overcome all sin or else, that is a yoke of bondage. So Gibs' teaching is like that of the Judaizers:

Acts 15:5 But some believers who belonged to the sect of the Pharisees stood up and said, "It is necessary for them to be circumcised and ordered to keep the law of Moses (all the rules in "the book of the law") 6 The apostles and the elders met together to consider this matter. 7 After there had been much debate, Peter stood up and said to them,....10 Now therefore why are you putting God to the test by placing on the neck of the disciples a yoke that neither our ancestors nor we have been able to bear? 11 On the contrary, we believe that we will be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, just as they will."

[Robert]