Question about Sabbath

[Gibs]

Robert, if you are continuing in sin when probation closes or you die and have not put it out of your heart and soul you will be resurrected with it as you died or probation closed.

Of course that will be the second resurrection.

Now of course we are all sinners and know this, when we truly repent of all our sins, He wipes our slate clean.

Are we then to continue in sin? No way. Hear Paul,

Ro 6:1 ¶ What shall we say then? Shall we continue in sin, that grace may abound?

Ro 6:2 God forbid. How shall we, that are dead to sin, live any longer therein?

Ro 6:3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?

Haven't you been baptised yet? Christ in you and you have all power to overcome if you want to. It depends on who and what you love most.

Haven't you come to hate sin yet? How can one continue in something they hate? Don't you see, the fact is you don't really hate it but love it!

You know you should hate it, but you don't want to. If you love me, Jesus said it will be shown that you keep my commandments. ( paraphrased )

Joh 14:15 ¶ If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Then here He goes on to state your strength and stay!

Joh 14:16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

Joh 14:17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Robert]

Now of course we are all sinners and know this, when we truly repent of all our sins, He wipes our slate clean.

You mean God pretends like you are not a sinner?

Slate? Come on, that's more legalism. Let me remind you of what Paul said:

Heb 10:17 "I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more."

If God is keeping a tally of my bad deeds on a slate then Heb 10:17 becomes meaningless.

What you present, Gibs, is good old fashioned heresy, but I like the word legalism a bit more. That fits you well.

[JoeMo]

I'm having a hard time understanding why certain people feel that just because someone is preaching salvation by grace and admitting that they have not yet reached sinless perfection, that others imply (or outright accuse them) that these people are cherishing their sins or encouraging others to "go on practicing sin and that Christ has no power to keep them from it." I have certainly never said that; and IMO neither has Robert. Just because someone is secure in their salvation because of the agape love freely given to us by Jesus doen't mean they are reveling in sin. When Paul says "he who began a good work in you will carry it on to completion until the day of Christ Jesus", he was talking about a process. Anyone who claims to already be that "completed work" is deceiving themselves and others.

I have said before that I have had more victory over sin in my life since I started looking at Jesus instead of the law than at any other time in my Christian walk. Am I sinless? NO! I admit it and so did Robert:

Quote:

God's changed me and I am glad of it. My wife especially! However that doesn't mean I can stand in front of God's law and state that I am perfectly in harmony with all of its demands.

Those of you who are truly the "completed work" of sinless perfection have a right to continue throwing stones. Those of you who aren't a "completed work", please back off on the criticism.

I believe the subject of this thread was originally "the Sabbath"?

Mine was awesome today. Got to visit my home church for the first time in several weeks; and got a refill of love and the Spirit. I look forward to Sabbath every week; not because "it's the Law", but because I get to be with my Savior and people I love; and I get refilled by the Holy Spirit. Sometimes, I go to a different church on Sunday, too, for the same reason!

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

According to that view, the One who said, "Go and sin no more," has no power to help us obey His commandment. It is definitely bad news.

I never said that, John. God's changed me and I am glad of it. My wife especially! However that doesn't mean I can stand in front of God's law and state that I am perfectly in harmony with all of its demands.

So yes, its good news that we can grow, but the law doesn't care about partial righteousness, it demands perfect, unblemished righteousness in thought and deed.

I'm not suggesting that we come to the place before the second coming where we can stand before the Law of God and say we're perfectly in harmony with all its demands. That's not the point. No one is justified because of their obedience to any law. Our obedience or disobedience to God shows whether we really love God or not. Genuine justification always results in a new creation.

The law doesn't care about growth in Christ, but God does.

The law of God cannot save anyone-- it can only condemn and show us our need of Christ. But once we come to Christ and He forgives us and puts His perfect righteousness to our account, God also sends the Spirit into our life and the Spirit empowers us to live for God.

[Woody]

Good to see John317 and Robert in agreement on this issue. Way 2 go guys.

[Gibs]

Originally Posted By: Gibs

Now of course we are all sinners and know this, when we truly repent of all our sins, He wipes our slate clean.

You mean God pretends like you are not a sinner?

Slate? Come on, that's more legalism. Let me remind you of what Paul said:

Heb 10:17 "I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more."

If God is keeping a tally of my bad deeds on a slate then Heb 10:17 becomes meaningless.

What you present, Gibs, is good old fashioned heresy, but I like the word legalism a bit more. That fits you well.

Robert, I take your expressions with a grain of salt. Sure once we repent and our sins are forgiven they are removed from the record, slate and He remembers them no more, but fall back and different story.

There is No legalism in my view of this, I see the way Christ has made and I see you refuse it and call it works, legalism.

A man does what HE himself wants to do until he falls on the Rock and broken of himself that He can be Christs. Christ's follow Him and love it, no works to it. It is an exhilarating walk to walk with Him being an overcomer. The bondage to Satan broken. An accomplishement none can do of themselves but Christ in you all things are possible.

Php 4:13 I can do all things through Christ which strengtheneth me.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[JoeMo]

Quote:

A man does what HE himself wants to do until he falls on the Rock and broken of himself that He can be Christs. Christ's follow Him and love it, no works to it. It is an exhilarating walk to walk with Him being an overcomer. The bondage to Satan broken. An accomplishement none can do of themselves but Christ in you all things are possible.

Gibs,

A man STILL does what he wants to do after he becomes Christ's. Once the Law is written on our hearts, we just want to do different things - things that demonstrate our love of God and for our fellow man. That doesn't mean that we don't ever fall back into old habits or give in to temptation sometimes. God may take away the guilt and punishment for my sins; but He doesn't instantly take away my history and habitual tendencies. As long as we are willing, he who began a good work in me is willing and able to complete it. God is more interested in my destiny than He is in my history. But for most people, "overcoming is not an instant fix - it is the work of a lifetime. I have heard that some people (maybe even you) have been delivered instantly from sin and never face or give into temptation ever again. I'm not one of those people. Jesus didn't bathe me in His blood just once and then abandon me. He holds me in a waterfall of His cleansing blood 24/7; so that His Father can always see me as spotless.

Praise God for His infinite love and mercy towards us!

[Gibs]

JoeMo,

A man does what he wants before he has Christ in him and does the things of a carnal nature that man has.

When Christ is within he no longer is the old man, he has died of that and then his want is to do the will of the LORD.

But too many who are labled as Christians are still at doing all the the carnal self wants. What is wrong? What is wrong they have not Christ within and have never fallen on Him and broken of self. Self is not dead yet and really isn't a Christian as a Christian is one who follows Christ and Christ only.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[JoeMo]

Gibs,

Do you ever have anything positive or encouraging to say about anyone's Christian experience?

[born_again1]

Jumping in...

After reading through this thread, it sounds as if Gibs is perfect, and are there others, as well? Perhaps I missed comments regarding whether Gibs is perfect or not. I have not met anyone who is perfect. But my experience may be just my own.

Have you reached this state of perfection, Gibs...if not, why?

[JoeMo]

Hey born_again, welcome to the conversation!

Gibs doesn't claim perfection; but he's pretty old and set in his ways. He's a world-class conservative; but he's very consistent and his heart is true.

I am not perfect in the world's eyes; but I believe I am perfect in God's eyes; because when He looks at me, He sees the perfection of His His Son Jesus. It's not my doing; it is strictly by the grace of he who is able to keep me from stumbling and to present me before His glorious presence without fault and with great joy (See Jude 1:24). If you are saved by the grace of Jesus Christ rather than by your perfect obedience to the Law, God sees you as perfect, too!

[Gibs]

Born_Again,

Ole Gibs don't boast of anything. I walk with my God and Saviour, He is my strength and stay. I have nothing of which to boast.

JoeMo, the positive thing about anyones Christian experience is to walk and talk with Him continually.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[BobRyan]

And how does the context define the law? He doesn't list the commandments until Romans chapter 13:9-10

[Robert]

Sure once we repent and our sins are forgiven they are removed from the record, slate and He remembers them no more, but fall back and different story.

It doesn't say that, it says "I will remember their sins and their lawless deeds no more."

You live under the law and you will die under the law. You need grace, Gibs, or I can promise you that you will not enter into the kingdom of God.

[BobRyan]

In Matt 18 and in Ezek 18 God informs us of the Bible principle of "forgiveness revoked" after saying "I forgave you all your debt" the King returns it "all" to the one fully forgiven in Matt 18 - according to Christ. Christ ends by saying "so shall my Father do to each one of you if you do not forgive your brother from the heart".

In Rom 11 Paul says "quite right - you should fear for you stand only by your faith. If He did not spare them neither will He spare you".

The OSAS suggestion does not survive a close review of the Bible.

in Christ,

Bob

[JoeMo]

Bob,

You state:

Quote:

As the chapter progressed - Paul dealt with all men - Jew and Gentile contrasting the ceremonial law (that did not matter) with the moral law of God "the Commandments of God" that DO matter.

Addressing the ceremonial law (which didn't matter?)first, God said in Genesis 17:10-14 -

Quote:

This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised. 11 You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you. 12 For the generations to come every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised, including those born in your household or bought with money from a foreigner—those who are not your offspring. 13 Whether born in your household or bought with your money, they must be circumcised. My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant. 14 Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant.”

This was before the 10 commandments. How can it be called ceremonial? It appears Paul is advising people to IGNORE God's everlasting covenant? How dare he! And you call this merely ceremonial? No wonder he says with all impunity in 2Cor. 3:7-11

Quote:

Now if the ministry that brought death, which was engraved in letters on stone, came with glory, so that the Israelites could not look steadily at the face of Moses because of its glory, transitory though it was, 8 will not the ministry of the Spirit be even more glorious? 9 If the ministry that brought condemnation was glorious, how much more glorious is the ministry that brings righteousness! 10 For what was glorious has no glory now in comparison with the surpassing glory. 11 And if what was transitory came with glory, how much greater is the glory of that which lasts!

Now is Paul saying the 10 Commandments bring condemnation? Wow! How do we SDA's even accept Paul's writings as biblical?

Of course, I'm being sacastic here to show that we cannot say what part of the law is ceremonial (optional)and what part is required. Christ is the emodiment on the entire law - whether it be something you consider ceremonial - or part of the decalogue. If we are part of the body of Christ, we have died to the whole Law; and we have neither the wisdom nor the right to call part of it ceremonial and another part required.

I'm sure I'll hear once again about OSAS; and how I am preaching saved in my sin rather than from my sin; cheap grace, etc. etc. etc. Spare me. That's not what I'm saying. The Law is the embodiment of Christ's charactier; and as such our witness is to endeavour to obey the Law through the power of the grace (unmerited favor) freely offered. But obeying the Law is not our means of salvation - GRACE and GRACE ALONE received by faith in Jesus Christ is our ticket to heaven.

[Gibs]

The Sabbath is part of the law written out to all whom Christ has not been invited to come and dwell in. Now how many that don't really have Christ dwelling in really keep the Sabbath day Holy without desecrating it. You must know we can do nothing of ourselves, we have become so weak we don't have what it takes.

But Christ in you and all things are possible! Also when Christ is within, the law is in our hearts and soul and since it is a law of love it now is fulfilled by our love for Him. That is loving Him with all our hearts and souls. The law now is our love also, and our will is given to do His Will and no longer ours of our carnal nature.

We then have become a new creature in Christ Jesus, Born again and of His Spirit which now takes presidence in our lives. We now begin to walk and talk with Him continually and we then do not fall. We must be as Enoch was.

We must come to hate sin! Will you continue to do the things you hate?

How we keep Sabbath is the proof of the "pudding". It tells if we love Him as we should. When we do, the Sabbath is a feast day that we want to spend very closely with Him. It is a Wonderful Spiritual Feast!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[JoeMo]

Gerhard,

You misrepresent me - I do NOT reject Paul's writings! If you would have read my whole post, you would have got to the part where I said I was being sarcastic. I accept everything in the Bible as God's Word; therefore it is 100% truth. I was trying to indicate that Bob should not make the "call" that circumcision was simply ceremonial (therefore optional); while obedience to the codified 10 commandments are required for salvation.

Please don't pass judgement on me in front of this entire forum unless you are certain about what I am saying. You wouldn't like it if I did that to you.

Other than your spurious accusations against me and Gibs, I pretty much agree with your post.

[JoeMo]

Gibs,

Quote:

The Sabbath is part of the law written out to all whom Christ has not been invited to come and dwell in. Now how many that don't really have Christ dwelling in really keep the Sabbath day Holy without desecrating it.

Who determines whether or not I am desacrating the Sabbath?

Is hiking a mile desecrating the Sabbath? How about hiking 5? 10? What if I am "hiking" in town rather than in the mountains?

How about riding my horse? Is saddling my horse breaking the Sabbath? Is riding her making her break the Sabbath?

How about watching TV? What if I'm watching 3ABN?

How about going out to eat? What if it's at camp meeting; and I'm just giving the server a meal ticket instead of cash? What if we are on vacation with no facilities in our room to make food?

Do you see what I'm getting at here?

[JoeMo]

Apology accepted, brother! Like I said at the end of my previous post, I generally like what you have to say.

Blessings,

JoeMo

[Gibs]

Gibs,

Quote:

The Sabbath is part of the law written out to all whom Christ has not been invited to come and dwell in. Now how many that don't really have Christ dwelling in really keep the Sabbath day Holy without desecrating it.

Who determines whether or not I am desacrating the Sabbath?

Is hiking a mile desecrating the Sabbath? How about hiking 5? 10? What if I am "hiking" in town rather than in the mountains?

How about riding my horse? Is saddling my horse breaking the Sabbath? Is riding her making her break the Sabbath?

How about watching TV? What if I'm watching 3ABN?

How about going out to eat? What if it's at camp meeting; and I'm just giving the server a meal ticket instead of cash? What if we are on vacation with no facilities in our room to make food?

Do you see what I'm getting at here?

The Sabbath JoeMo is a feast day to be with our Lord, we are to dedicate the time in Spirituality with Him.

For me I do not go out and do my pleasure on that day, I'll let it be your call on that but you should read the Commandment if it is not in your heart.

Isaiah spells it out for us!

Isa 58:13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:

Isa 58:14 Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[JoeMo]

The commandment is in my heart, Gibs. I have read it. You have to quit treating me and others like heathen infidels. You do not have a monopoly on holiness.

Sabbath is by far my favorite day of the week. I get a whole special day to be with God, my church family, and my earthly family. Sometimes we go out and do stuff, sometimes we go home and visit, sometimes we read our Bibles or devotionals, sometimes we nap. I don't go to work, my kids don't do homework. Sometimes I spend time on CA.

I call the Sabbath a delight because it is a pleasure to be with the Lord - no matter what I am doing - not because I have to comply with some Law in order to earn my way to heaven and avoid eternal hell fire.

[Gibs]

JoeMo, You asked the question and I tried to answer it so as not to be abusive, I'm sorry you take it that way. I stated to you that it is your call.

You ask, "Who determines whether or not I am desacrating the Sabbath?"

You do JoeMo and I stated that it was your call. Most don't regard it highly enough for sure these days. It is kept by too many too loosely.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Woody]

Quote:

I call the Sabbath a delight because it is a pleasure to be with the Lord - no matter what I am doing - not because I have to comply with some Law in order to earn my way to heaven and avoid eternal hell fire.

Thank you for stating this JoeMo.

Far too many and especially some on this board - view the keeping of the commandments as a way to earn heaven and as you say "Avoid eternal hell fire". WHat a shame. JEsus is all about LOVE - not this legalistic garbage.

[JoeMo]

Quote:

You ask, "Who determines whether or not I am desacrating the Sabbath?"

You do JoeMo and I stated that it was your call. Most don't regard it highly enough for sure these days. It is kept by too many too loosely.

Just because they are not keeping the Sabbath tightly enough to meet your high standards does not mean they are keeping it too loosely. Just like you said, it is my call on how I keep the Sabbath. It is your call on how you keep the Sabbath. It is everyone else's call on how they keep the Sabbath. It is not for you or me to judge whether or not they are keeping it too loosely, to rigidly, or "just right".

Do not judge, lest ye be judged.