Walter Veith arrested in Germany for exposing Catholicism??

[Gerr]

Quote:

Not exactly persecution of Veith for truth-telling. Rather, deep embarrassment for the denomination at the nonsense he spews.

One of the Devil's greatest tools in the last days is sensationalism and Veith seems to have mastered it to a fine art.

I watch AD-TV more than any religious program. I do not see this sensationalism that is being spoken of. The historical events he brings out are well documented and referenced. The only thing I don't care about on this channel is too much time being given to the Masons and other secret societies and their involvement in some conspiracy. Yet these are well-referenced as well. I have yet to hear a doctrinal exposition by him that I disagree with. Are we now to be silent that the papacy is the visible front of Satan the antichrist? If not, how is the subject to be presented without offending them? I have heard Assherick and other evangelists bring out the same truths. So why the Veith criticism?

[BobRyan]

I watch AD-TV more than any religious program. I do not see this sensationalism that is being spoken of. The historical events he brings out are well documented and referenced. The only thing I don't care about on this channel is too much time being given to the Masons and other secret societies and their involvement in some conspiracy. Yet these are well-referenced as well. I have yet to hear a doctrinal exposition by him that I disagree with. Are we now to be silent that the papacy is the visible front of Satan the antichrist? If not, how is the subject to be presented without offending them? I have heard Assherick and other evangelists bring out the same truths. So why the Veith criticism?

I agree with that. Very often those who are most critical are those who are not looking at "the details" in the material.

I have never found a case where Veith defends the Nazi's crimes against Jews and Christians.

in Christ,

Bob

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

#587281 ,#587317

Gerry and Bob

God blesses!

[Bravus]

You'll note that I have not at any point said Veith is antisemitic. Read carefully. I have reserved judgement until better evidence is available. Others have leapt to judgement in the face of the evidence: Spectrum has zero role in this sorry saga.

[John317]

I have reserved judgement until better evidence is available.

Excellent advice for all, in this situation.

Quote:

Spectrum has zero role in this sorry saga.

Perhaps so, but we will have to wait until all the evidence is in about this aspect as well.

[Bravus]

I think the evidence kind of is. Here's what Veith himself wrote:

"It is probable that the people who lodged the complaint are the group from EANN (the German equivalent of SPECTRUM MAGAZINE) because they propagated such action immediately after the lecture."

From the letter that John317 posted on Page 2 of this very thread.

Veith says it is *probable* that it was EANN (without evidence), and says that EANN are 'the German equivalent of Spectrum'.

So unless we believe in guilt by association, I'm very happy to stand by my statement - based on the available evidence - that Spectrum has zero roll in this.

[John317]

From Chrome's translation of the page I linked earlier:

Reason is the opinion of the lecture "king of the north", Part 2, by Dr. Walter Veith, an Adventist from South Africa, on 20 October 2012 in Nuremberg held and was also webcast...

Thanks for posting this. It's obviously a literal translation but at least we get some idea of why the media is saying Dr. Veith was arrested.

In good English it reads:

"An arrest was made because of an opinion expressed by Dr. Walter Veith, an Adventist from South Africa, in the lecture, 'King Of the North, Part II,' which was held in Nuremberg, and webcast, on October 20, 2012."

I was going to rewrite the entire article for the fun of it, but it would take too much time at this late hour. I may do it yet but not tonight.

[John317]

I assume you know the German legal system better than I do, so could you explain why it would be against the law for Dr. Veith to express his viewpoint about this?

In the USA, of course, he would be perfectly free to say what he did.

Maybe this kind of thing has to do with the reason my great-great grandfather left Germany to immigrate to America.

[John317]

I think the evidence kind of is.

Yes, it is kind of in, but what I'm waiting for is for the evidence to be really all in, and I'm sure you will be the first to agree that hasn't happened yet. :-)

[lazarus]

I assume you know the German legal system better than I do, so could you explain why it would be against the law for Dr. Veith to express his viewpoint about this?

In the USA, of course, he would be perfectly free to say what he did.

Maybe this kind of thing has to do with the reason my great-great grandfather left Germany to immigrate to America.

Americans say the N-word rather than use the real word. There is a cultural sensitivity there don't you think? I'm sure you understand the reasons why.

To bring this down to "my country is better than your country" is unhelpful at best.

Can you understand why Germans would have a strong reaction against any suggestion of anti-semitism? I could think of millions of reasons why Germans might want to make a law about it.

[BobRyan]

I assume you know the German legal system better than I do, so could you explain why it would be against the law for Dr. Veith to express his viewpoint about this?

In the USA, of course, he would be perfectly free to say what he did.

Maybe this kind of thing has to do with the reason my great-great grandfather left Germany to immigrate to America.

It appears that this is thought-police level PC - where it is not appropriate to adopt the Bible view that literal Israel is replaced by spiritual Israel after the 490 years of Daniel 9 expires.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

I think the evidence kind of is. Here's what Veith himself wrote:

"It is probable that the people who lodged the complaint are the group from EANN (the German equivalent of SPECTRUM MAGAZINE) because they propagated such action immediately after the lecture."

From the letter that John317 posted on Page 2 of this very thread.

Veith says it is *probable* that it was EANN (without evidence), and says that EANN are 'the German equivalent of Spectrum'.

So unless we believe in guilt by association, I'm very happy to stand by my statement - based on the available evidence - that Spectrum has zero roll in this.

Ok so it appears to be agreed that EANN is an extension of SPECTRUM the posts so far.

Is it also agreed that EANN members were at the meeting and that they filed the complaint immediately after the lecture - or perhaps it is unknown if they were there and suppose that it is coincidental that the complaint came immediately after the lecture?

I don't have those details so I can't say one way or the other on that one.

in Christ,

Bob

[Bravus]

Nope. No connection between EANN and Spectrum. Veith thinks they're similar. That's it.

[John317]

I assume you know the German legal system better than I do, so could you explain why it would be against the law for Dr. Veith to express his viewpoint about this?

In the USA, of course, he would be perfectly free to say what he did.

Maybe this kind of thing has to do with the reason my great-great grandfather left Germany to immigrate to America.

Originally Posted By: lazarus

Americans say the N-word rather than use the real word. There is a cultural sensitivity there don't you think? I'm sure you understand the reasons why.

The N-word is used all the time by blacks and it is also used in many of America's greatest books. If it is used in the right way-- and there is a right way to use it-- there is nothing wrong with it.

I would not defend its wrong use, but I would defend the person's right to use it even when I am very much in disagreement with what the person is saying.

Originally Posted By: Lazarus

To bring this down to "my country is better than your country" is unhelpful at best.

I'm not bringing it down to that. I love Germany and the German people, but I don't like governments that arrest people for speaking their mind. It is irrevelant whether the government approves of what people say.

I am not into political correctness, Lazarus. I feel completely free to speak my mind, which is related to the topic of discussion here,because it has to do with freedom of speech. I believe that people have the freedom to say many things that I disagree with and don't like. It doesn't matter whether it offends me or not. I am not offended at anything anyone would say. I am not even offended at being called "queer" or "white boy" or "cracker" or "faggot" and many other names. I learned a long time ago that being called names doesn't truly hurt anyone unless they allow it to. I figure it's the other person's problem, and I actually want them to be free to say anything they feel like.

One thing I don't like are governments who don't allow freedom of speech, including things opposed to the government. A nation is not free if the people can only say what the government or the people agree with.

We believe in protecting the rights of minorities in this country, and I know that doesn't happen in many other nations. That is a fact of history, whether it is a popular fact or not. We have to be free to say even what's unpopular and even if most people don't believe it or are "offended" by it.

Quote:

Can you understand why Germans would have a strong reaction against any suggestion of anti-semitism? I could think of millions of reasons why Germans might want to make a law about it.

Sure, I understand European history very well, and I lived for over a year in Germany.

They might have a "reason" for making such a law, but I don't believe it's right, and I am glad we don't have such laws here.

Besides, there's no valid evidence so far showing that Dr. Weith said anything anti-semetic. That is just an accusation.

In any case, what is the law in Germany which prohibits Dr. Weith from saying what he in fact said?

[BobRyan]

Ok so Veith was not arrested and is not in Germany and nothing about antiCatholic statements.

The tempest in a teapot appears to be over attempts by someone in Germany to imagine that Veith has some sort of antisemetic message/ministry/mission in his statements on Daniel 11 because he endorses the Bible doctrine on replacement.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

he endorses the Bible doctrine on replacement.

I may not have followed Walter Veith close enough but if that is what he believes I do not agree with it as, I believe attested to by the Scriptures.

"Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. "John 4:21-23 NKJV Underlined mine LHC

OTOH the last line of that Scripture does seem to indicate a time when replacement is a reality that would not do violence to the part the Jewish people of this world, still play in the salvation of souls.

"For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh; but he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the Spirit, not in the letter; whose praise is not from men but from God." Romans 2:27-29 NKJV

God blesses!

[BobRyan]

Quote:

he endorses the Bible doctrine on replacement.

I may not have followed Walter Veith close enough but if that is what he believes I do not agree with it

[Gibs]

Well for ole me, Walter Veith is still one of the best today in Adventism,

Walter Veith up on Charges in Germany

http://www.godslastwarning.com/walter-veith-up-on-charges-in-germany/

"A case of sedition (incitement against the government) has been lodged against me for apparent anti Semitic statements in my lecture on Daniel 11 (see my response below). It is probable that the people who lodged the complaint are the group from EANN (the German equivalent of SPECTRUM MAGAZINE) because they propagated such action immediately after the lecture. “Spectrum” is our liberal magazine whose first editor claimed that the visions that Ellen White received were as a result of epileptic attacks so the rest of their theology can be deduced from sentiments such as these.

There is no court case as yet, only the charge has been lodged. The police have made their enquiries, and it is up to the government now to decide whether they have a case and this will take until January — then we will know. Ellen White predicted that such things would happen so I am of good spirits because it proves the Spirit of Prophecy right. I have accepted that the matter is now in the hands of the Government and trust that God is in control....."

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[BobRyan]

[LifeHiscost]

I for one do not believe that any of man's mistakes robs God of the promises He made in the old testament, at least for those who are repentant of their mistakes.

"I will make you into a great nation. I will bless you and make you famous, and you will be a blessing to others. I will bless those who bless you and curse those who treat you with contempt. All the families on earth will be blessed through you.”"Genesis 12:3,4 NLT

"For this is My covenant with them,

When I take away their sins.”

Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. For as you were once disobedient to God, yet have now obtained mercy through their disobedience, even so these also have now been disobedient, that through the mercy shown you they also may obtain mercy. "Romans 11:27-31

NKJV Underlined mine LHC

"Thus says the Lord,

Who gives the sun for a light by day,

The ordinances of the moon and the stars for a light by night,

Who disturbs the sea,

And its waves roar

(The Lord of hosts is His name):

“If those ordinances depart

From before Me, says the Lord,

Then the seed of Israel shall also cease

From being a nation before Me forever.”"Jer 31:35-36 NKJV

God blesses!

[Concerned SDA]

Be very careful about how you address this. Only by proving his guilt through the bible and through fact should you look to place blame, and do it prayerfully. Popularity of stone throwing will not win favour with God, only with man. I have yet to find error in any of his teachings or seminars. Be informed before you engage.

[Bravus]

No-one here has accused him of anything. Only reported the available information as it becomes available.

[BobRyan]

I for one do not believe that any of man's mistakes robs God of the promises He made in the old testament, at least for those who are repentant of their mistakes.

"I will make you into a great nation. I will bless you and make you famous, and you will be a blessing to others. I will bless those who bless you and curse those who treat you with contempt. All the families on earth will be blessed through you.”"Genesis 12:3,4 NLT

As I said before - if the nation were to suddenly repent and accept the real Christ - I would indeed be looking for great things coming out of that area of the world.

But as Paul points out in Heb 11 - Abraham was not looking for a big chunk of sand in the dessert. He was looking for a "city whose builder and maker is God" and a "heavenly land" not an earthly one.

At the end of Heb 11 - Paul states that "these all died without receiving what was promised" - which of course as we find out in Matt 5 is the New Earth - and is the Kingdom of heaven.

Christ said "I go to prepare a place for you and if I go I will come again and receive you unto Myself so that - in order that - where I am there you may be also" John 14

At that time the dead in Christ (which includes all believing Jews of the OT) will rise first and then we who are alive and remain will be caught up together with them in the air - and taken to heaven for when Christ comes "My reward is with Me" Rev 22.

And so it is no surprise that Jews such as Peter would tell the church to "fix our hope completely on the grace to be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ". 1 Peter 1:13

in Christ,

Bob

[Nic Samojluk]

Are we now to be silent that the papacy is the visible front of Satan the antichrist?

My view on this differs from yours. The anti-Christ is described in the Bible as a persecuting power. Originally, it pointed to Pagan Rome; later to Rome, which persecuted those it labeled as heretics; then the term did apply to Protestants as well when they persecuted and killed those who disagreed with them on doctrine.

My question to you is: Who is Rome persecuting and killing today? How many innocent human beings has Rome killed recently?

Compare this with the millions Hitler, Stalin, Idi Amin, and Bin Laden have killed! How about the U.S. which has authorized the destruction of 55 million innocent unborn children?

How about us who have participated and profited from this abhorrent practice?

[John317]

Nope. No connection between EANN and Spectrum. Veith thinks they're similar. That's it.

In what way does Dr. Veith think they're similar?

And do you believe they are not similar?