Walter Veith arrested in Germany for exposing Catholicism??

[John317]

Are we now to be silent that the papacy is the visible front of Satan the antichrist?

That's an essential part of the Three Angels' Messages, and there are lots of people-- both inside and outside the SDA Church-- who would like to see us silent about this topic.

Originally Posted By: Nic Samojluk

My view on this differs from yours. The anti-Christ is described in the Bible as a persecuting power. Originally, it pointed to Pagan Rome; later to Rome, which persecuted those it labeled as heretics; then the term did apply to Protestants as well when they persecuted and killed those who disagreed with them on doctrine.

Nic, while the Bible certainly condemns the persecuting practices of Protestants, it doesn't identify protestants as the little horn of Daniel 8, and it also doesn't identify protestants as "man of sin" or the "great whore" of Rev. 16. The Bible makes clear that these-- as well as the sea-beast of Rev. 13-- refer to the papal system.

[John317]

....Not exactly persecution of Veith for truth-telling. Rather, deep embarrassment for the denomination at the nonsense he spews.

Bravus, here's the presentation by Dr. Veith that is in question. Please watch it and tell what he says in it that's nonsense in your judgment or what warrants his arrest.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5hhaDC42PU&feature=player_embedded

[BobRyan]

Only the thought-police would think of an arrest based on that video.

[Nic Samojluk]

Nic, while the Bible certainly condemns the persecuting practices of Protestants, it doesn't identify protestants as the little horn of Daniel 8, and it also doesn't identify protestants as "man of sin" or the "great whore" of Rev. 16. The Bible makes clear that these-- as well as the sea-beast of Rev. 13-- refer to the papal system.

Rome did behave as the anti-Christ when it persecuted innocent people. The fact that Rome acted in a Beastly fashion in the past does not mean that it is acting in like manner today.

We need to watch the present behavior of people and individuals instead of what they did in the past or what they might do in the future.

The Israelites were described in the Bible as God's people, yet eventually they acted like the anti-Christ when they crucified Jesus.

The Apostle Peter on one occasion declared Jesus to be the Son of God and the promised Messiah, yet soon after Jesus had to scold him by saying: "Get you behind me, Satan."

Saul of Tarsus persecuted and killed the followers of Jesus, but later repented and became a saint. Would you judge him based on his past behavior?

Even Ellen White declared that prophetical predictions are contingent on human response to divine guidance. Have we learned anything from the failed prediction made by Jonah against the Ninevites?

[John317]

UPDATE REPORT: Walter Veith Responds to EUD and is Banned in German Churches by European Adventist Leaders

An inquiry is currently underway in Germany concerning Walter Veith and anti-semitism charges. In our previously published report, the circumstances and dialogue that took place in this incident are outlined. On December 4, 2012, the EUD made the decision 45 in favour, 1 opposed, and 4 undecided to ban Walter Veith from speaking in German SDA Churches for the second time. The previous ban took place in 2004 due to his lectures on Bible translations and what was termed as "conspiracy theories" which were highly disapproved of by German leaders. The ban was lifted in 2010, but now has been reinstated.

Readers should note that there have been no complaints from Jews in regards to Walter's comments, nor have any non-SDAs had issue with the contents of his series. All complaints and disapproval originated from fellow SDA brethren, specifically those associated with the private news agency EANN (similar to Spectrum), and from Church leadership that sided with the accusers. The ban from speaking in German SDA Churches stems not from any public offence actually made, but rather from leadership so desperate to be politically correct that they rather sacrifice truth. Or is there a more sinister reason for their strong opposition to this message??

The following letter was sent on December 5, 2012 by Walter Veith to Bruno Vertallier in response to his November 30, 2012 letter of disapproval and request to meet.

Dear Brother Vertallier

Thank you for your letter to which I would like to respond. Firstly, I never received any e-mails from you as you might have sent them to an old address and our telephone lines have been stolen so you would not have been able to reach me on the land line. Secondly, from the tone of your letter it is obvious that you did not accept my explanation of the ‘small yellow cloth’ phrase and I therefore assume that you suppose that it was intentionally derogatory towards the Jews as a people. It seems as though some people are bent on assuming evil intent because that is what they want to hear. The fact of the matter is that my lectures are too close to home for some and therefore every word is placed on the gold scale to find something objectionable and they refuse to accept my explanation that it was an issue of language barrier and nothing else.

Let me spell it out for you: In my home language (Afrikaans) all diminutives are endearing and express empathy and we even have double diminutives and triple diminutives to express feelings. In German diminutives are often deemed derogatory and since German and Afrikaans share phrases it is natural for me to use Afrikaans nuances when speaking German. In fact I got into trouble before in Germany for saying that someone had a ‘small heart’ (kleines Herz) as opposed to ‘large heart’ (gro es Herz). In Afrikaans someone with a small heart (klein hartjie –which by the way is a double diminutive) is kind, full of empathy, gentle, easily hurt, or endearing, but in German it means ‘hard-hearted’ or ‘stingy’. In Afrikaans one would use the phrase ‘small cloth’ to distinguish it from the opposite extreme such as a large cloth like a bed sheet and no one would even think to interpret it otherwise. I therefore reiterate that I did not mean it in a derogatory sense and that I harbor no anti-Semitic sentiments. Moreover, having grown up in Africa and not in Germany, I was never associated with discrimination against the Jews nor did I ever side with or share any sentiments with those who did. On the contrary, discriminatory ideologies are abhorrent to me.

My statements have been wrenched out of all proportions and since the actions of the SDA leadership in German-speaking Europe during the war were not exactly exemplary (as is clear from their apology in the 2005 declaration on anti-Semitism and also the recent reiteration of that declaration) I assume that you overreacted for fear that the past should haunt you. In line with that declaration, I too am against all forms of discrimination on the grounds of race or religion and stand firmly for religious liberty but I draw a clear line of distinction between the theological issues and the racial issues involved. It seems to me that some find it difficult to distinguish between the two because they carry this burden of guilt. The fact that the SDA church in Germany shares this guilt does, however, not give them the right to transfer this baggage onto me and to swing to the opposite extreme of discriminating against the ‘antitypical Jews’ who preach the Three Angels’ Messages. If they do this, then their confession becomes a repentance of King Saul without the change of heart, because they demonstrate by their action that they are just as willing now to repeat their folly as they were then.

As Seventh-day Adventists we have been called to present a particular message – the Three Angels’ Messages - which will end in the clarion call to all who are trapped in Babylon to ‘Come out of her, My people’. The false ideologies must be laid bare and Babylon will be exposed or else no one will know what they are to come out of. The trumpet must give a certain sound so the people can rally under the Lord’s banner. This is the aim of my lectures and this should be the aim of every SDA evangelist as we are admonished ‘not to let anything else occupy our minds’. Modern Babylonian ideologies are closely associated with a literal state of Israel and must therefore be exposed as false and this alone is the aim of my lectures. The preaching of the Three Angels’ Messages is uncomfortable to those within our ranks who wish to be so politically correct that they are willing to sacrifice truth for worldly acceptance.

The German leaders never consulted me before issuing a public statement to the churches and thereby did not follow the Biblical process as outlined in Matthew 18:15-20, thereby aligning themselves with the accusers. Furthermore, the legal procedures that have been initiated against me are also out of harmony with Scripture and since the leadership has not distanced itself from this process, they too are in breach of the Biblical admonition in this regard. Your letter to me clearly shows that the EUD position is no different from the above and therefore I now have no choice other than to place this response and some concerns of my own in the public domain as well.

1.The modern ecumenical tendencies in our midst becloud the presentation of the Three Angels’ Messages and it seems that our representatives in Europe (as published recently in a German SDA journal) cannot even give a reason as to why we believe that the papacy is the antichrist or why we as a church deem it necessary to hand out the ‘Great Controversy’. Are we not admonished against ecumenical associations and will this not be a stumbling block to the propagation of our message?

2. Why is it that not a word of remonstrance is heard when false practices are brought into the church? Most of leadership seems unconcerned when Spiritual Formation comes into our ranks like a flood in spite of the fact that it has its roots in Jesuitical spirituality (as dealt with extensively in my lecture ‘The Jesuits and the Counterreformation’). We go even further and advertise books with these sentiments in official church publications. Why was there no public rebuke when a speaker at one of our institutes in Europe advocated blessings by Wiccan witches and why was this speaker even permitted to speak at other SDA institutes? Were those involved ever given letters of rebuke? I am aware that this is not only a European problem and that other institutes have permitted Jesuits and other such speakers to speak at Adventist forums.

3.Why is it that our youth is led astray at official gatherings with music and performances that have no semblance of heaven? I have watched shocking videos of youth and church leaders in Europe engaging in events that would even make other denominations blush. Are we so bent on apostasy that concerned brethren are driven to cry between the porch and the altar for all the evil that is done in Israel? Even Conference Presidents have expressed their deep sadness with regard to this issue to me personally. Again, I acknowledge that this is a worldwide problem, but that the leadership should lead the way in this apostasy, is indeed astounding.

4.Why is it that we willingly adopt the practices of non-SDA mega churches and emerging church theologies that change our message and our outreach to one of ‘correction of social injustices’ rather than a message of salvation? It seems this is the new wave. Did those who teach these things ever receive letters of rebuke? Is it right that these new methods should be drummed into our students and that we should embrace these practices when we are not only admonished by the Spirit of Prophecy that we should steer clear of such things but are even warned that they would come in like a flood. Do we really want to be part of this fulfillment of prophecy or should we do all in our power to stop it?

5.Why is it that there was no official letter of rebuke from Europe when most of the delegates of that territory voted against the clarification of our position regarding the literal Six-day Creation? Why are evolutionary ideologies not only embraced in our ranks, but the ‘princes of Israel’, who are supposed to lead the flock in the ancient paths align themselves publicly with this apostasy? When the testimonies that were once believed are marginalized and relegated to the ‘trash heap of nineteenth century literature’, then the road to perdition is sure to follow. Why are leading figures allowed to slight and ridicule the testimonies and no action is taken against them? Does the Spirit of Prophecy not form part of our fundamental beliefs?

6.Where does Europe stand when it comes to the ordination issue? Irrespective of where we stand on the issue personally, why are there rumblings of secession from the ranks because pet theories are placed above church unity? Did Christ pray in vain for unity? Is it necessary to print an additional watered-down evangelically-minded Sabbath School lesson book just to avoid the sentiments expressed in the Spirit of Prophecy and hereby cause divisions in the church in Europe and indeed in the world?

The list could go on and on but I will leave it there. There are many voices of concern regarding these issues, not least of which is that of Elder Ted Wilson who stands out like a beacon of hope and I believe that God has placed him there for a time like this. It is shameful how he was and still is treated by some in our ranks. We can no longer remain silent in the face of these things or else we will be found wanting. We will have to meet these challenges head on (“Iceberg ahead – meet it!”) and may God be gracious to us during the shaking which must come.

Regarding the issue of Freemasonry and the Jesuits, these matters are clearly outlined in the Spirit of Prophecy and I feel that further discussions would not be fruitful. If we disregard the Spirit of Prophecy, how will we ever understand our SDA mission? Therefore nothing that I could say would change your perceptions. I have stated my case in the past and up to date have never received any reply regarding these documents and I append them again for your clarification.

I wish to assure you that I love Christ and His truth, as given to our pioneers, with all my heart. I believe that this church will go through to the Kingdom and I will continue to do all in my power to call people into its ranks and it is my prayer that the church will unify on the true Advent message as it was preached from 1842 to 1846 {GCB, April 6, 1903 par. 35; 1 MR 52.2}. I thank God for the pioneers and godly Adventists who as late as 1952 published our first declaration of fundamental beliefs under the official auspices of the General Conference in the book “Principles of Life”. I stand by this Adventism and by the grace of God will not be moved.

I wish to make an appeal to you in the words of the Spirit of prophecy:

Seventh-day Adventists are now to stand forth separate and distinct, a people denominated by the Lord as His own. Until they do this, He cannot be glorified in them. Truth and error cannot stand in copartnership. Let us now place ourselves where God has said that we should stand.... We are to strive for unity but not on the low level of conformity to worldly policy and union with the popular churches.--Lt 113, 1903. {2MCP 559.2}

Your Brother in Christ

Walter Veith

Source and pictures:

http://amazingdiscoveries.org/12.12.06-walter-veith-responds-to-eud-banned-in-german-churches

[John317]

Originally Posted By: John317

Nic, while the Bible certainly condemns the persecuting practices of Protestants, it doesn't identify protestants as the little horn of Daniel 8, and it also doesn't identify protestants as "man of sin" or the "great whore" of Rev. 16. The Bible makes clear that these-- as well as the sea-beast of Rev. 13-- refer to the papal system.

Rome did behave as the anti-Christ when it persecuted innocent people. The fact that Rome acted in a Beastly fashion in the past does not mean that it is acting in like manner today.

We need to watch the present behavior of people and individuals instead of what they did in the past or what they might do in the future.

How people or institutions are behaving right now does not change the meaning of the symbols given in prophecy.

The little-horn power of Daniel 8, the "man of sin" of 2 Thess 2: 8, the great Whore of Rev 16, the "Mother of harlots," and the sea-beast of Rev. 13-- all these refer to the papal system.

God is calling His people out of this false religious system.

Seventh-day Adventists must give a clear message about the identity of this false system and teach the Three Angels Messages plainly and with a loud voice so that the people of the world and in the fallen churches will see the choices they must make between true worship of God and false worship.

[John317]

Even Ellen White declared that prophetical predictions are contingent on human response to divine guidance.

Here are a few of her other declarations:

Quote:

The Roman Church now presents a fair front to the world, covering with apologies her record of horrible cruelties. She has clothed herself in Christlike garments; but she is unchanged. Every principle of the papacy that existed in past ages exists today. The doctrines devised in the darkest ages are still held. Let none deceive themselves.The papacy that Protestants are now so ready to honor is the same that ruled the world in the days of the Reformation, when men of God stood up, at the peril of their lives, to expose her iniquity. She possesses the same pride and arrogant assumption that lorded it over kings and princes, and claimed the prerogatives of God. Her spirit is no less cruel and despotic now than when she crushed out human liberty and slew the saints of the Most High. {GC 571.1}

The papacy is just what prophecy declared that she would be, the apostasy of the latter times. 2 Thessalonians 2:3, 4. It is a part of her policy to assume the character which will best accomplish her purpose; but beneath the variable appearance of the chameleon she conceals the invariable venom of the serpent. "Faith ought not to be kept with heretics, nor persons suspected of heresy" (Lenfant, volume 1, page 516), she declares. Shall this power, whose record for a thousand years is written in the blood of the saints, be now acknowledged as a part of the church of Christ? {GC 571.2}

It is not without reason that the claim has been put forth in Protestant countries that Catholicism differs less widely from Protestantism than in former times. There has been a change; but the change is not in the papacy. Catholicism indeed resembles much of the Protestantism that now exists, because Protestantism has so greatly degenerated since the days of the Reformers. {GC 571.3}

Romanism as a system is no more in harmony with the gospel of Christ now than at any former period in her history. The Protestant churches are in great darkness, or they would discern the signs of the times. The Roman Church is far-reaching in her plans and modes of operation. She is employing every device to extend her influence and increase her power in preparation for a fierce and determined conflict to regain control of the world, to re-establish persecution, and to undo all that Protestantism has done. Catholicism is gaining ground upon every side. See the increasing number of her churches and chapels in Protestant countries. Look at the popularity of her colleges and seminaries in America, so widely patronized by Protestants. Look at the growth of ritualism in England and the frequent defections to the ranks of the Catholics. These things should awaken the anxiety of all who prize the pure principles of the gospel. {GC 565.4}

Protestants have tampered with and patronized popery; they have made compromises and concessions which papists themselves are surprised to see and fail to understand. Men are closing their eyes to the real character of Romanism and the dangers to be apprehended from her supremacy. The people need to be aroused to resist the advances of this most dangerous foe to civil and religious liberty. {GC 566.1}

[Nic Samojluk]

How people or institutions are behaving right now does not change the meaning of the symbols given in prophecy.

The little-horn power of Daniel 8, the "man of sin" of 2 Thess 2: 8, the great Whore of Rev 16, the "Mother of harlots," and the sea-beast of Rev. 13-- all these refer to the papal system.

God is calling His people out of this false religious system.

Seventh-day Adventists must give a clear message about the identity of this false system and teach the Three Angels Messages plainly and with a loud voice so that the people of the world and in the fallen churches will see the choices they must make between true worship of God and false worship.

John, please read the following statement by Ellen white, and bear in mind that this was written before our church redefined the Sixth Commandment of the Decalogue.

“We must as a people arouse and cleanse the camp of Israel. Licentiousness, unlawful intimacy, and unholy practices are coming in among us in a large degree; and ministers who are handling sacred things are guilty of sin in this respect. They are coveting their neighbors' wives, and the seventh commandment is broken. We are in danger of becoming a sister to fallen Babylon, of allowing our churches to become corrupted, and filled with every foul spirit, a cage for every unclean and hateful bird; and will we be clear unless we make decided movements to cure the existing evil?” {TSB 188.3}

Most Adventists take for granted that Ellen White's prediction about the future of the church is guaranteed, ignoring that she also warned that our church could also become a sister to Babylon. If this were to happen, we might be required to also come out of the "sister of Babylon."

At that time, Mrs. White was concerned about the Seventh Commandment. This is a serious matter, but I believe that our departure from the clear meaning of the Sixth one is much more serious because it involves the loss of human life. Fifty-five millions so far in the U.S. alone, in which we have participated for profit's sake.

There is a need of repentance on this issue.

[John317]

This discussion is about Veith and his written response, not about abortion or conditional prophecy.

[Gerr]

Quote:

he endorses the Bible doctrine on replacement.

I may not have followed Walter Veith close enough but if that is what he believes I do not agree with it as, I believe attested to by the Scriptures.

"Jesus said to her, “Woman, believe Me, the hour is coming when you will neither on this mountain, nor in Jerusalem, worship the Father. You worship what you do not know; we know what we worship, for salvation is of the Jews. But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. "John 4:21-23 NKJV Underlined mine LHC

But did you notice what came AFTER the phrase you underlined?

[Gerr]

Concerning the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but concerning the election they are beloved for the sake of the fathers. For the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

For/to whom are the promises irrevocable?

ESV | ‎Ro 9:6 But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel, ‎7 and not all are children of Abraham because they are his offspring, but “Through Isaac shall your offspring be named.” ‎8 This means that it is not the children of the flesh who are the children of God, but the children of the promise are counted as offspring.

ESV | ‎Ro 9:27 And Isaiah cries out concerning Israel: “Though the number of the sons of Israel be as the sand of the sea, only a remnant of them will be saved,

ESV | ‎Ro 11:1 I ask, then, has God rejected his people? By no means! For I myself am an Israelite, a descendant of Abraham, a member of the tribe of Benjamin. ‎2 God has not rejected his people whom he foreknew.

ESV | ‎Ro 11:5 So too at the present time there is a remnant, chosen by grace.

To the Israel of Christ's day He said: ESV | ‎Lk 13:35 Behold, your house is forsaken.

To the tenants recorded in the parable in Mk 12 & Mt 21 who refused to give the fruit of the owner's vineyard and who beat the servants sent to collect the fruit and then killed the owner's son Jesus had this to say: ESV | ‎Mk 12:9 What will the owner of the vineyard do? He will come and destroy the tenants and give the vineyard to others.

And in the prophecy of Dan 9, God said - "70 weeks are decreed about your people and your holy city, to finish the transgression...."

[Gerr]

Is this the same branch of the SDA church that went against GC policy and cozied up to the Nazi regime?

[Nic Samojluk]

John,

You posted a long list of quotations by Ellen White which condemn what Rome did in the past and what Rome allegedly will do in the future.

Quote:

The Roman Church now presents a fair front to the world, covering with apologies her record of horrible cruelties. She has clothed herself in Christ like garments; but she is unchanged. Every principle of the papacy that existed in past ages exists today. The doctrines devised in the darkest ages are still held. Let none deceive themselves. The papacy that Protestants are now so ready to honor is the same that ruled the world in the days of the Reformation, when men of God stood up, at the peril of their lives, to expose her iniquity. She possesses the same pride and arrogant assumption that lorded it over kings and princes, and claimed the prerogatives of God. Her spirit is no less cruel and despotic now than when she crushed out human liberty and slew the saints of the Most High. {GC 571.1}

The papacy is just what prophecy declared that she would be, the apostasy of the latter times. 2 Thessalonians 2:3, 4. It is a part of her policy to assume the character which will best accomplish her purpose; but beneath the variable appearance of the chameleon she conceals the invariable venom of the serpent. "Faith ought not to be kept with heretics, nor persons suspected of heresy" (Lenfant, volume 1, page 516), she declares. Shall this power, whose record for a thousand years is written in the blood of the saints, be now acknowledged as a part of the church of Christ? {GC 571.2}

It is not without reason that the claim has been put forth in Protestant countries that Catholicism differs less widely from Protestantism than in former times. There has been a change; but the change is not in the papacy. Catholicism indeed resembles much of the Protestantism that now exists, because Protestantism has so greatly degenerated since the days of the Reformers. {GC 571.3}

Romanism as a system is no more in harmony with the gospel of Christ now than at any former period in her history. The Protestant churches are in great darkness, or they would discern the signs of the times. The Roman Church is far-reaching in her plans and modes of operation. She is employing every device to extend her influence and increase her power in preparation for a fierce and determined conflict to regain control of the world, to re-establish persecution, and to undo all that Protestantism has done. Catholicism is gaining ground upon every side. See the increasing number of her churches and chapels in Protestant countries. Look at the popularity of her colleges and seminaries in America, so widely patronized by Protestants. Look at the growth of ritualism in England and the frequent defections to the ranks of the Catholics. These things should awaken the anxiety of all who prize the pure principles of the gospel. {GC 565.4}

Protestants have tampered with and patronized popery; they have made compromises and concessions which papists themselves are surprised to see and fail to understand. Men are closing their eyes to the real character of Romanism and the dangers to be apprehended from her supremacy. The people need to be aroused to resist the advances of this most dangerous foe to civil and religious liberty. {GC 566.1)

Condemning what Rome did in the past is justified, but condemning what it will do in the future is wrong because Ellen White told us that the future is contingent on human response.

She also told us that God’s threatening and promises are conditional on our behavior. Mary, the mother of Jesus, was promised that her Son would sit on David’s throne forever. This promise did not materialize because the Jews rejected their promised Messiah.

“But has the word of the Lord failed? Never! It should be remembered that the promises and threatenings of God are alike conditional.” {Mar 61.1}

“God's favor toward Israel had always been conditional on their obedience.” {PK 293.1}

God promised that the House of Priest Eli would last forever. This promise failed when the priest failed to discipline his sons.

“Therefore the LORD, the God of Israel, declares: I promised that members of your family would minister before me forever. But now the LORD declares: Far be it from me! Those who honor me I will honor, but those who despise me will be disdained.”

We Adventists tend to cling to God’s promises to our church forgetting that said promises are conditional. What God promised and what he predicted concerning the Adventist Church and concerning Rome are conditional. Rome did act in a beastly fashion in the past and identifying it with the Beast of Revelation was proper, but Rome is not acting in this manner today.

The Adventist Church was faithful to God in the past, but the past does not guarantee the future. We need to watch what Rome and the Adventist are doing today instead of relying on what took place in the past.

The following quote from Ellen White represents a serious warning to our church and if the church fails to repent of our past sins, the Lord will vomit it as predicted in the book of Revelation. Mrs. White did predict that our chuch could become a “sister to Babylon.” These are not my words!

“We must as a people arouse and cleanse the camp of Israel. Licentiousness, unlawful intimacy, and unholy practices are coming in among us in a large degree; and ministers who are handling sacred things are guilty of sin in this respect. They are coveting their neighbors' wives, and the seventh commandment is broken. We are in danger of becoming a sister to fallen Babylon, of allowing our churches to become corrupted, and filled with every foul spirit, a cage for every unclean and hateful bird; and will we be clear unless we make decided movements to cure the existing evil?” {TSB 188.3}

[Gordon1]

went against GC policy

Which GC policy Gerry?

[7daysadventist]

I first learned about this whole topic on or about the day this thread was started. I was alerted via the following link which was sourced from the same Amazing Discoveries website JOHN317 cited recently. http://amazingdiscoveries.org/12.12.03-s...y-november-2012

I have always held Walter Veith up as a courageous Adventist. Very powerful testimony.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

The Adventist Church was faithful to God in the past, but the past does not guarantee the future. We need to watch what Rome and the Adventist are doing today instead of relying on what took place in the past.

"And they answered, Believe in the Lord Jesus Christ [ give yourself up to Him, take yourself out of your own keeping and entrust yourself into His keeping] and you will be saved, [and this applies both to] you and your household as well." Acts 16:31 AMP Brackets their's LHC

"Because if you acknowledge and confess with your lips that Jesus is Lord and in your heart believe (adhere to, trust in, and rely on the truth) that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved."Romans 10:9 AMP Parenthesis their's LHC

If these can't be accepted then neither can this.

At that time Jesus prayed this prayer: “O Father, Lord of heaven and earth, thank you for hiding these things from those who think themselves wise and clever, and for revealing them to the childlike.Matthew 11:25 NLT

"This means that Abraham’s physical descendants are not necessarily children of God. Only the children of the promise are considered to be Abraham’s children."Romans 9:8 NLT

"And if you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s seed, and heirs according to the promise."

Galatians 3:29 NKJV

God blesses!

[Nic Samojluk]

LH,

You quoted the following statement I had made:

"The Adventist Church was faithful to God in the past, but the past does not guarantee the future. We need to watch what Rome and the Adventist are doing today instead of relying on what took place in the past."

And you responded with a list of quotations. Were those quotations meant to agree with what I had said of just the opposite? Just wondering!

[BobRyan]

[BobRyan]

John,

You posted a long list of quotations by Ellen White which condemn what Rome did in the past and what Rome allegedly will do in the future.

Quote:

The Roman Church now presents a fair front to the world, covering with apologies her record of horrible cruelties. She has clothed herself in Christ like garments; but she is unchanged. Every principle of the papacy that existed in past ages exists today. The doctrines devised in the darkest ages are still held. Let none deceive themselves. The papacy that Protestants are now so ready to honor is the same that ruled the world in the days of the Reformation, when men of God stood up, at the peril of their lives, to expose her iniquity. She possesses the same pride and arrogant assumption that lorded it over kings and princes, and claimed the prerogatives of God. Her spirit is no less cruel and despotic now than when she crushed out human liberty and slew the saints of the Most High. {GC 571.1}

The papacy is just what prophecy declared that she would be, the apostasy of the latter times. 2 Thessalonians 2:3, 4. It is a part of her policy to assume the character which will best accomplish her purpose; but beneath the variable appearance of the chameleon she conceals the invariable venom of the serpent. "Faith ought not to be kept with heretics, nor persons suspected of heresy" (Lenfant, volume 1, page 516), she declares. Shall this power, whose record for a thousand years is written in the blood of the saints, be now acknowledged as a part of the church of Christ? {GC 571.2}

It is not without reason that the claim has been put forth in Protestant countries that Catholicism differs less widely from Protestantism than in former times. There has been a change; but the change is not in the papacy. Catholicism indeed resembles much of the Protestantism that now exists, because Protestantism has so greatly degenerated since the days of the Reformers. {GC 571.3}

Romanism as a system is no more in harmony with the gospel of Christ now than at any former period in her history. The Protestant churches are in great darkness, or they would discern the signs of the times. The Roman Church is far-reaching in her plans and modes of operation. She is employing every device to extend her influence and increase her power in preparation for a fierce and determined conflict to regain control of the world, to re-establish persecution, and to undo all that Protestantism has done. Catholicism is gaining ground upon every side. See the increasing number of her churches and chapels in Protestant countries. Look at the popularity of her colleges and seminaries in America, so widely patronized by Protestants. Look at the growth of ritualism in England and the frequent defections to the ranks of the Catholics. These things should awaken the anxiety of all who prize the pure principles of the gospel. {GC 565.4}

Protestants have tampered with and patronized popery; they have made compromises and concessions which papists themselves are surprised to see and fail to understand. Men are closing their eyes to the real character of Romanism and the dangers to be apprehended from her supremacy. The people need to be aroused to resist the advances of this most dangerous foe to civil and religious liberty. {GC 566.1)

Condemning what Rome did in the past is justified, but condemning what it will do in the future is wrong

Those who refuse to learn from the lessons of the past are doomed to repeat them.

But in the case above - the task is super simple. Does the Catholic Church today claim that the LATERAN IV infallible statement - Canon Law - calling for the extermination of Jews and Heretics - was in fact infallibly correct even in the light of our modern day when we should all know that such things are evil?

The answer is that they claim that infallibility does indeed apply to the decisions of LATERAN IV.

End of story.

in Christ,

Bob

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

went against GC policy

Which GC policy Gerry?

I could be wrong, but wasn't non-combatancy the church policy at the time?

[Nic Samojluk]

Those who refuse to learn from the lessons of the past are doomed to repeat them.

But in the case above - the task is super simple. Does the Catholic Church today claim that the LATERAN IV infallible statement - Canon Law - calling for the extermination of Jews and Heretics - was in fact infallibly correct even in the light of our modern day when we should all know that such things are evil?

The answer is that they claim that infallibility does indeed apply to the decisions of LATERAN IV.

End of story.

in Christ,

Bob

I disagree! The past does is not an infallible predictor of the future. This is clearly illustrated by the parable of the two sons whose father asked them to go work in the their father's vineyard. The first one said, "I will," but did not fulfill his promise. The other said, "I won't," but later changed his mind and went to work.

It is true that Rome persecuted innocent people in the past. The church did apologize for the sins of Inquisition more than once. Is Rome burning heretics on the stake today? Not only it is not killing innocent people anymore, but it has been a champion in the defense of the sanctity of life from the moment of conception while we, Adventists, have profited from the killing of the unborn.

Have we repented of this egregious violation of God's Law? How can we continue to condemn Rome for its past behavior while we blindly continue to adhere to our glaring redefinition of the Sixth Commandment as evidenced by our "Guidelines on Abortion"?

We need to be fair. We need to give credit to Rome where credit is due. We need to judge the Catholic church on the basis of its present behavior instead of on what it did in the past or what it might do in the future.

When the evil King Ahab repented, didn't God acknowledge said fact? The same is true about King Nebuchadnezzar. Should we not treat others likewise?

[BobRyan]

It is true that Rome persecuted innocent people in the past. The church did apologize for the sins of Inquisition more than once. Is Rome burning heretics on the stake today?

The problem with your post is that the premise is not true - at almost every point.

1. The RCC has never stated that the inquisition was in error.

2. The RCC has never stated that the rule of Canon Law set forth in Lateran IV calling for the extermination of Jews and heretics - was flawed or that this is not infallible to this very day.

3. Rule on infallibility according to the RCC is that BOTH the Papal decrees AND the ecumenical councils such as Lateran IV - are alike infallible to this very day. In the case of the Popes they get to play the shell game of "what is spoken ex cathedra and what is not" but in the case of the ecumenical councils - the Canon law that they produce is a matter of public record.

4. There is still persecution against non-Catholics in some areas of central and South America where the RCC can get by with it.

But if all these realities were to disappear - then your following idea that we simply let bygones be bygones would play out very well.

However in real life - those things you are ignoring are just not going away.

I tried this out on two notable Catholics in the past. One was Dr William Carroll of EWTN - the official answer-person when it came to Church History. I asked him if JPII actually apologized for any specific event in the dark ages - such as say... the inquisition. And I pointed out that IF in fact the Pope admitted that this was a flawed idea - that they would then need to resolve the problem of the claim to infallibility because of the way the inquisition was sanctioned by both Pope and ecumenical councils calling for extermination.

He stated several times - that JPII never apologized for any specific act of the Church. That the apology was limited to non-specific vague references that let the infallibility claim stand.

Next I tried this out on a catholic priest over at Spectrum who was ranting against the idea that some SDAs actually still believe SDA doctrine.

I suggested that we not be intolerant of the views of those who did not think as we did. I asked if he could join with me in affirming that we now in this modern age understand and agree that it is wrong to persecute or to exterminate those who differ with our theology. He could not affirm that point and was very upset that I asked him to join me in making that statement.

In fact Spectrum saw the problem quickly - and shut the thread down for fear that this failure to join me in this very obvious, liberal, and open minded position - would expose them to a degree.

How sad.

in Christ,

Bob

[Gerr]

How many of her false doctrines has the RCC given up?

[Bravus]

We remember that the charges against Veith had zip to do with Catholicism, right?

[Gerr]

Yep, from all that have been brought out here in this thread.