God & Guns

[Robert]

God tolerates the criminal and wacko's, apparently according to you does not want them harmed and any that die should be viewed as having a higher purpose,whether criminal or law abiding gun owner

Read what I say and don't twist it.

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Does not God allow evil to continue? Is God tolerating wackos?

Leave these poor criminals and wacko's alone, God tolerates them just fine according to you

Then why do you tolerate evil? Go blow away the abortion doctors. Stop the murderers.

[bonnie]

Outside Christ (the unbeliever) is to a larger degree under the power the wicked one.

I didn't know the Jews of the holocaust, but we have recorded in the Bible the unbelief of many of them during the time of Christ. Read what Matthew recorded:

Matt 23:37 "Jerusalem, Jerusalem...How often I wanted to gather your people together, just as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings. But you didn't want that.

Now many of the Jews didn't accept Christ - they rejected Him. Did God wipe them out? No!

[Robert]

Why should we get so hysterical about 20 children,we just don't know the higher purpose of their deaths?

You aren't reading or comprehending a thing I say because you are obsessed with guns and protection. You are paranoid!

The believer is under God's plan. If he dies, so what! What did Paul say?

"For to me, to live is Christ and to die is gain."

I feel badly for the parents of those 20 kids, but the next thing those little ones will see is their Savior and thousands and thousands of angels. It's the living parents that's going through hell.

[Robert]

God used their horrendous treatment for a higher purpose?

Evil happens everyday. Where have you been? If the believer dies he takes a quick nap. To him or her it's a millisecond.

The unbeliever needs to quit running from God and embrace Him. Then if he dies no worries.

[bonnie]

Does not God allow evil to continue? Is God tolerating wackos?

Then what is all the fuss about?...

You didn't answer my question....

I have to leave for a bit but will later.

But tell me how this works,you refuse to answer direct questions and I overlook one and you want to remind me?

Typical Robert

[Robert]

Originally Posted By: Robert

Does not God allow evil to continue? Is God tolerating wackos?

Then what is all the fuss about?...

You didn't answer my question....

I have to leave for a bit but will later.

But tell me how this works,you refuse to answer direct questions and I overlook one and you want to remind me?

Typical Robert

Rob's a terrible person....

[bonnie]

Rob's a terrible person....

Quite a childish and self serving response from someone that has routinely leveled some pretty nasty self righteous accusations against others and engage in the type of name calling you have many times.Referring to other posters as "son of satan was calling someone a bad person.Pointing out the obvious as to how you respond when you are asked questions didn't say anything of the sort

[bonnie]

Does not God allow evil to continue? Is God tolerating wackos?

You didn't answer my question....

God will allow evil to play out,that is a given.Does he tolerate wacko's,yes in the sense that he doesn't strike them dead.

Is that an indication that you should allow your family to be attacked if you can prevent it? Not to me.

You have already stated your willingness to use violence to protect your family.You say you would not use undue violence.No one should.This is where I believe what you say is for other people and not to be followed by Robert.

There are pacifists and religious sects that talk the talk you do but they also walk the walk. Undue violence is not in their vocabulary. Even to protect their child from a wacko they would not lift a hand to harm another human being. In the event they were called to testify they would not,because they do not believe in "retaliation".

Even knowing the acts and the where abouts of a child molester they would not notify police.They have that nasty habit of coming with guns and sometimes the wacko ends up dead.They will not call police and then stand there like Pilate showing clean hands. Or preaching to others while they fail to live up to their stated beliefs.

If there is another way to protect your family,by all means we should take it. No one with the exception of yourself is talking about uncontrolled violence against anyone.Most people that would defend their families are not just itching and waiting for the chance to blow someone's head off out of "righteous anger"

I can't even imagine shooting at someone because they have stolen a possession of mine. However,if it was either or concerning my grandchildren not even a question mark.Would I happily anticipate such a chance?Absolutely not,if I had a choice,would it be my first choice?NO.

[bonnie]

Read what I say and don't twist it.

I agree it is twisted but I didn't twist it.

Given a chance to stop a wacko from killing family,you say that violence should not be used.In your own case it is undue violence.If that is the only option and family members die when you could have done something and didn't,you have stated that God allows this for a higher purpose or because of their unbelief.

The religious persecutions that have taken place where it is denounce God or die,yes there is a higher purpose.

I don't believe that God decided one day that the death of my sisters would serve a higher purpose so he stepped back and hands off. Nor do I believe that they were killed because of unbelief. I do believe that what my parents did with that and tried to instill in my brothers and I was because of their faith.I don't believe God decided to test them and see how they would handle it for a higher purpose

[Robert]

I agree it is twisted but I didn't twist it.

[Robert]

Here's Pastor Jack:

As God’s children, Satan or the world cannot touch us unless God permits it. All power is given to Christ. “Greater is He that is in you than he that is in the world.” (1 John. 4:4) If God says, “No,” nobody can touch you. They tried to touch Christ, but as long as His hour had not yet come, nobody could touch Him.

...Remember this, if God doesn’t want you to die nobody can touch you. It He wants you to die, thank Him, for all your worries will be over. You will go to sleep until He comes. Hence, we can say with Paul, “For me to live is Christ and to die is gain.” (Phil. 1:21)

When I was in Ethiopia, during the Marxist revolution, one of the Marxists said to me: “You will leave this country in four days without your children.” Wouldn’t that scare anybody? He threatened to kill my children. They were just small, helpless children at that time. I said to him, “Go and find somebody else to scare. If God doesn’t want my children or me dead, neither you, nor your government can touch us.”

He said, “You will see.” I did see. I left five years later with my children. Apparently God did not want me or my children to die then. Remember, nobody can touch you if your hour has not yet come.

[M. T. Cross]

Originally Posted By: bonnie

That isn't proof that we are not within our christian right to protect ourselves or or families. That is your "gospel" according to Robert.

The Old Testament is full of folks wiping out their enemies. These same people nailed Christ to a wooden cross. So your attitude towards violence has a lot to do with how you treat God.

Actually Robert, those people from the OT were long dead by that time. The people that killed Christ were the same that did not defend themselves well enough and let the Romans rule them....

[bonnie]

I don't believe that God decided one day that the death of my sisters would serve a higher purpose so he stepped back....

Never said what you are inferring. You are ignorant.

But you did say that

Robert said.......

The believer, who dies prematurely, does so because God allows him or her. He simply doesn't intervene for a greater purpose. God does not cause the evil, He simply doesn't intervene.

No one suggested that God caused the evil that caused this man to kill my sisters,but you have said they were allowed to die because of a greater purpose

[bonnie]

Originally Posted By: Robert

I don't believe that God decided one day that the death of my sisters would serve a higher purpose so he stepped back....

Never said what you are inferring. You are ignorant.

But you did say that

Robert said.......

The believer, who dies prematurely, does so because God allows him or her. He simply doesn't intervene for a greater purpose. God does not cause the evil, He simply doesn't intervene.

No one suggested that God caused the evil that caused this man to kill my sisters,but you have said they were allowed to die because of a greater purpose

You also are quoting Jack,who has no authority on this......

As God’s children, Satan or the world cannot touch us unless God permits it. All power is given to Christ. “Greater is He that is in you than he that is in the world.” (1 John. 4:4) If God says, “No,” nobody can touch you. They tried to touch Christ, but as long as His hour had not yet come, nobody could touch Him.

...Remember this, if God doesn’t want you to die nobody can touch you. It He wants you to die, thank Him, for all your worries will be over. You will go to sleep until He comes. Hence, we can say with Paul, “For me to live is Christ and to die is gain.” (Phil. 1:21)

So God wanted my sisters to die and the millions over the years that have been killed just as senselessly?

Christ had a mission to fulfill and a appointed time to die so you seem to be saying that is true for all mortal man.

My cousin along with scores of other women were killed by the Green River serial killer.I had lost touch with her over the years and did not know her well so can't say if she was a believer or not. She either was and God wanted her to die at the hands of this man or she wasn't and she died because of her unbelief.

If she had the opportunity I am sure she fought for her life.She was a young mother with infant twin daughters so I know she would have fought if able. In your world she was wrong,it was her appointed time to die.If no one could take her life if it wasn't,the only conclusion is she would have been wrong to fight back.Any that would have been in a position to help her would also have been wrong to intervene where God was not.

[bonnie]

Never render evil for evil. Who said that?

Never said what you are inferring. You are ignorant.

But you have repeatedly. Jesus never fought back. You have condemned all that have stated they would,in Robert's talk,the walk of others is clearly spelled out frequently by you.Yet,you make the distinction between violence and undue violence concerning your own. Jesus didn't.

Robert said....If my human nature had its way I would wipe out anyone trying to hurt my wife. If led by God I would try to protect her without undue violence. God is my shield and my protector, not a 44-mag.

First,why not limit your involvement to prayer alone? If God is your shield and protector why bother at all,undue violence or otherwise.

I don't see anywhere where Jesus used just a little bit or just enough to subdue his attackers. Jesus had a mission to fulfill and there was an appointed time.

In your world,put all thoughts aside of fighting back on any level for others.In your world Robert being led by God uses enough physical force to help his wife. Let her die,it is her appointed time as you have repeatedly said

[bonnie]

Robert said....If my human nature had its way I would wipe out anyone trying to hurt my wife. If led by God I would try to protect her without undue violence. God is my shield and my protector, not a 44-mag.

1. If it is your wife's appointed time why would you use violence at any level?

2.You have said you would try to get out of harm's way,WHY?

If it is not your wife's time to die that action is unnecessary? If it is that attempt is pointless as well.

3.Given the opportunity you Cannot call for help. Jesus didn't.He walked meekly to his own death?

The next thing your wife would know would be the resurrection ,so what would your problem be with letting her die. Just say "Sorry honey,it is your appointed time,and if it isn't nothing will happen to you"

4. Does being led by God mean one thing for Robert and another for everyone else?

[Robert]

The people that killed Christ were the same that did not defend themselves well enough and let the Romans rule them....

The Jews revolted against Roman. Roman slaughtered 1 million Jews.

If the US military moved against us we too would die. If you think your pea-shooters will help, think again.

[Robert]

No one suggested that God caused the evil that caused this man to kill my sisters, but you have said they were allowed to die because of a greater purpose.

Jack states it best:

One of the clear teachings of the Bible is the sovereignty of God. That means that nothing happens in the universe without the permission of God. That’s what it means. God is sovereign. Did God know that Lucifer would sin? Yes. Then why did He create him? That’s one of the big questions.

[Robert]

1. If it is your wife's appointed time why would you use violence at any level?

[bonnie]

Jack states it best:

One of the clear teachings of the Bible is the sovereignty of God. That means that nothing happens in the universe without the permission of God. That’s what it means. God is sovereign. Did God know that Lucifer would sin? Yes. Then why did He create him? That’s one of the big questions.

Sorry Robert,no one can answer for you and you really seem to have a problem in that area.

Again,Jesus did not resist in anyway. You said at one point you would try to get away from danger.Jesus did not try to escape his death on the cross. So why would you.

If it was not your appointed time to die,it would not be necessary.If it were your time to die it would be futile.

Jesus did not use force of any kind.But Robert,being led by God would,just not undue violence.

Jack's words don't mean a thing in this.Your hopefully honest answers might.

Does Robert talk the talk,while others walk Robert's walk ?

It says a great deal when you have to rely on others to answer for you

[Robert]

Jesus did not resist in anyway.

Resist violence? Yes He did. Did He use violence to resist violence? No.

John 10:31 Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, ...39 they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.

[Robert]

Quote:

'I'll keep my God, my freedom, my gun ....

Your freedom of life comes from God, not a gun.

[Robert]

John 10:31 Again the Jews picked up stones to stone him, ...39 they tried to seize him, but he escaped their grasp.

Luke 33:53 When I was with you day after day in the temple, you did not lay hands on me. But this is your hour, and the power of darkness." 54 Then they seized him and led him away...

Before this:

John 7:30 So they were seeking to arrest him, but no one laid a hand on him, because his hour had not yet come.

[Q.E.D.]

Quote:

'I'll keep my God, my freedom, my gun ....

Your freedom of life comes from God, not a gun.

Hmmmm. . .So American history is strangely and uniquely devoid of the procurement of freedom by the use of arms?

"And he had two horns like a lamb." The lamblike horns indicate youth, innocence, and gentleness, fitly representing the character of the United States when presented to the prophet as "coming up" in 1798. Among the Christian exiles who first fled to America and sought an asylum from royal oppression and priestly intolerance were many who determined to establish a government upon the broad foundation of civil and religious liberty. Their views found place in the Declaration of Independence, which sets forth the great truth that "all men are created equal" and endowed with the inalienable right to "life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness." And the Constitution guarantees to the people the right of self-government, providing that representatives elected by the popular vote shall enact and administer the laws. Freedom of religious faith was also granted, every man being permitted to worship God according to the dictates of his conscience. Republicanism and Protestantism became the fundamental principles of the nation. These principles are the secret of its power and prosperity. The oppressed and downtrodden throughout Christendom have turned to this land with interest and hope. Millions have sought its shores, and the United States has risen to a place among the most powerful nations of the earth."(The Great Controversy 1911 edition, page 441)