Are Jack Sequeira's teachings Biblicial?

[Robert]

I am not a Christian, I am a pagan.

You need to be delivered from under the law. You have been in the holy history of Christ. Accept Him and you have a righteousness that will save you from eternal death. Reject Him and you are putting a gun to your head - you are doing yourself in. He loves you more than Himself, but He cannot force His salvation and love on you. You must accept it. I pray that you will....

Rob

[M. T. Cross]

Originally Posted By: EmptyCross

Maybe you are a prophet Robert

No, but I know of one...his name is Paul, and he says, "Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin."

The law states your condition....You are a sinner and you need the righteousness of Christ. Don't deceive yourself that you are good. Everything you do, without Christ, is for your gain. Be honest with yourself. You get something back, maybe only recognition, etc. If you are not clothed with the righteousness of Christ there's no hope for you.

[Robert]

Oh do tell - what LAW am I under by being a pagan?

The law of God, which is summed - "You shall love your neighbor as yourself". To violate that law brings death, i.e., God abandonment, which is the second death.

[phkrause]

So you are saying I should love my enemies but loathe myself?

EC, it sure seems that that is what he's saying. What he fails to see, is Christ or God in general already knew that we love ourselves. In and of itself loving ourselves is not wrong, that's why Jesus tells us to love our neighbors as ourselves. What he wants us to do is extent the love we have for ourselves, to others. I believe that this is the problem we have in this world of sin.

[Robert]

In and of itself loving ourselves is not wrong, that's why Jesus tells us to love our neighbors as ourselves.

pkrause, I would be very careful telling a nonbeliever that self-love is not sin. Self-love is the essence of sin - it is at the root of all transgression.

Ellen White is clear (since apparently you can't see it in the Bible):

"You will have that love which seeks not her own, but another's wealth". [DA 439]

Do you see the subordinating conjunction, "but"?

Notice that Ellen White defines "love" (i.e., agape) as a love that does not seek out her own wealth, but another's wealth.

Self-love seeks its own and then, perhaps, if there's something left over it helps others only if it gets something out of the deal.

[bonnie]

No Robert, there are people that do the right thing simply because it is the right thing to do. Plain and simple.

Empty Cross,

You might want to take into account that there are those people that will do "the right thing" for what they can get in return"

It is easy then to look at all as the same and search scripture till you find what you need to justify your own behavior.

The concept of doing anything that is right just because it is the right thing to do without gain is completely foreign to some

[Robert]

Wikipedia:

"In 1956 psychologist and social philosopher Erich Fromm proposed that...to be able to truly love another person, a person needs first to love oneself"

Now, is the church adopting the world's point of view?

What does Ellen White teach? Is self-love a prerequisite to loving others?

"It is the love of self that destroys our peace."

"The lover of self is a transgressor of the law."

"Self-love, self-interest, must perish."

[Robert]

The concept of doing anything that is right ... without gain is completely foreign to some.

It is impossible! You see men can claim this, but it is a lie. God can read their hearts...there is no hiding the motive from God.

Jesus clearly, and unequivocally said, "without Me you can do nothing". Is Jesus wrong?

[M. T. Cross]

Originally Posted By: EmptyCross

Oh do tell - what LAW am I under by being a pagan?

The law of God, which is summed - "You shall love your neighbor as yourself". To violate that law brings death, i.e., God abandonment, which is the second death.

Well normally Robert I would say that there are a lot of Gods and I do live in accordance to the laws of mine.......

But going under the idea that your God is the one and only and the law you state is his. If I am doing that anyway am I still lost? How does the fact that I am pagan keep me from living by this standard?

[bonnie]

It is impossible! You see men can claim this, but it is a lie. God can read their hearts...there is no hiding the motive from God.

Jesus clearly, and unequivocally said, "without Me you can do nothing". Is Jesus wrong?

What is a lie is that either you or Jack can read the heart of others.

Personally ,I hope you take some time and really see how it may apply to yourself instead of obsessing so much about the other guy

(there is no hiding the motive from God}.

[Robert]

"The lover of self is a transgressor of the law."

Why?

Turn to Romans 13:9 The commandments, “You shall not commit adultery,” “You shall not murder,” “You shall not steal,” “You shall not covet,” and whatever other command there may be, are summed up in this one command: “Love your neighbor as yourself.” 10 Love does no harm to a neighbor. Therefore love (agape) is the fulfillment of the law.

You see it takes "agape" love to fulfill the law. In other words "agape" is the ingredient by which the law can be kept.

Self-love fulfills sin. Keeping the law, outwardly, through the love of self is fulfilling not the law, but sin.

The Pharisees were experts at outwardly keeping the law, but, as the Bible states, "all they did was to be seen of men".

In others they claimed to keep God's law, but they were void of the agape love it took to keep it.

[M. T. Cross]

Originally Posted By: EmptyCross

So you are saying I should love my enemies but loathe myself?

EC, it sure seems that that is what he's saying. What he fails to see, is Christ or God in general already knew that we love ourselves. In and of itself loving ourselves is not wrong, that's why Jesus tells us to love our neighbors as ourselves. What he wants us to do is extent the love we have for ourselves, to others. I believe that this is the problem we have in this world of sin.

Exactly PK - as I pointed out there are two ways self love can be approached.

One is loving yourself - I guess as you love others. Including yourself in that circle of love

The other is love of self. It is selfish and destructive.

Robert seems to confuse the two as being the same thing.

[M. T. Cross]

Originally Posted By: EmptyCross

No Robert, there are people that do the right thing simply because it is the right thing to do. Plain and simple.

Empty Cross,

You might want to take into account that there are those people that will do "the right thing" for what they can get in return"

It is easy then to look at all as the same and search scripture till you find what you need to justify your own behavior.

The concept of doing anything that is right just because it is the right thing to do without gain is completely foreign to some

Of course there are. I would say its the majority of people, at least here in Western Culture. I can't speak about other cultures cause I have not been a part of them.

[phkrause]

Exactly PK - as I pointed out there are two ways self love can be approached.

One is loving yourself - I guess as you love others. Including yourself in that circle of love

The other is love of self. It is selfish and destructive.

Robert seems to confuse the two as being the same thing.

From what I've observed in my years on earth is, those that don't love themselves, can't love others, are very bitter people.

[Robert]

"The lover of self is a transgressor of the law."

Matthew 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? 23 And then will I profess unto them , I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

Here we have some so called Christians boasting in their good deeds, but Christ tells them He doesn't know them, why?

Their works were done through iniquity instead of agape love.

What is "iniquity"?

The root meaning of this word is “to be bent.” Note the following text:

Psalm 51:5. David was “shapen in iniquity” from his very birth. This was his spiritual condition since physically he was handsome [1 Samuel 16:12]. The primary meaning of iniquity is not an act but a condition. As a result of the fall, man by very nature is spiritually “bent,” so that the driving force of his very nature is love of self. Paul defines it as “the law of sin and death” [Romans 7:23; 8:2].

So these so called Christians are outwardly doing good things, but without Christ. Since Christ said "you can do nothing without Me" then there is no agape present in the lives of these Christians. Hence they are depending on their goodness for a reward. That's self-love, not agape.

[Robert]

From what I've observed in my years on earth is, those that don't love themselves, can't love others....

You are leaning to your experience and not the word of God. What does the Bible say of our feelings and perceptions?

"The heart is deceitful above all things, who can know it?"

The love of self is very convincing. In fact Lucifer deceived 1/3 of the angels in heaven.

The love of self is so deceiving that God had to allow Lucifer to develop his system of love in order to bring it out into the light of day.

In other words "the love of self" looks and sounds good on paper, but when put into practice the results are obvious.

For 6000 + years we've seen Lucifer's system of love. Has it brought peace and brotherhood or division and bloodshed?

[M. T. Cross]

So Robert, without any further delay, please tell us how we should feel about ourselves?

[Robert]

When Satan rebelled against God in heaven [Revelation 12:7-9], he was really rebelling against the God’s agape love the spirit of His law [Matthew 22:36-40; Romans 13:10; Galatians 5:13-14]. The idea that “love (agape) seeketh not her own” (i.e., self) [1 Corinthians 13:5] was too restrictive to Lucifer. Consequently he objected to it and introduced the principle of self-love or eros [Ezekiel 28:15; Isaiah 14:12-14]. Therefore, ever since his fall, the enemy of God and man (Satan) has hated the concept of agape. When this concept was restored to the human race through the preaching of the gospel, he naturally was ready to attack it with all his might [Revelation 12:10-12]. Hence, the very first thing he attacked in the Christian church was not the sabbath or the state of the dead; these truths came later, but he zeroed in first on the concept of God’s agape love. [Jack Sequeira]

[Robert]

So Robert, without any further delay, please tell us how we should feel about ourselves?

If we didn't have our bent-to-self our feeling and concerns wouldn't be bent back to us, but others. Our highest ambition in life would be the prosperity of others, and they, ours....

There is no "self" in agape. Therefore "agape is the fulfillment of the law".

[M. T. Cross]

Wonderful, but now can you answer the question.

[Robert]

Wonderful, but now can you answer the question.

I just did...you missed it.

[bonnie]

Of course there are. I would say its the majority of people, at least here in Western Culture. I can't speak about other cultures cause I have not been a part of them.

For some reason the religious convictions of some does not seem to have brought them any peace.That by itself says a lot

If you follow a lot of what is said there seems to be a lot of bitterness and resentment.

If a employer tries to programs and they don't work,the employer is stupid.Seems to me then you would be happier being the smart one and working alone or being the employer.

Backstabbing at work does happen of course but if that is all you see maybe you should start looking a little closer to home.

If your co-worker has a strong work ethic and does his best in any given job,regardless of the pay,you don't and are replaced it is the fault of the diligent co-worker.

Babies cry to make their needs for survival known,self seeking instead of using the only means God has given them to communicate. Of course needing nourishment can be construed as some sinful self-seeking,but somehow I don't believe God saw it that way.

If you educate or encourage your children to learn a trade it is because of greed. For me and the rest of the lessors,I didn't want my children to be a leach on society.

Those that demand others work for the wealth of their neighbors has more than once bragged on what he owned or that he didn't "Have To"

To me that "Have To or Don't Have To" regarding your religious convictions speaks volumes.

You will notice that those that claim we should live "commune style" as the early church doesn't mean a whole lot to the one preaching.

There is ample evidence to the contrary and to seeing to the needs of your family,but that doesn't work for those looking for a way to justify their own problems or selfishness.

We toss words like "agape love" around as if that is a staple

of those preaching that.

Maybe I am wrong but I see the command to "Love your Neighbor

a little differently.I know that you do not claim to be a follower of the bible,but bear with me.Christ knew each and everyone of us personally.Our good and bad traits and faults.

I don't think that God demands the impossible and that is impossible for human beings.For me it means I respect human life,I have compassion even for those I don't know or even like for that matter.Be willing to help where I can and when I am aware of a need.

It does not mean that I love the child in the next town that I don't know even exists like I do my own.

I can't speak for fathers,but I believe God caused that tremendous bond between a mother and her child.

I can't speak for you but for me I have never felt the resentment towards those that work harder,had such contempt for my co-workers or felt the need to constantly not only question the motives of others but use the bible to prove that I do. Sometimes motives cannot be missed.

I don't think God wants us to walk around with that kind of resentment.I think he wants us to be happy.Not as in we want to stay in this world as it is forever,but I don't think the hatred and dissatisfaction with everything and everyone,except ourselves is the way either.

Yet it has been said if you take any type of satisfaction in providing something that someone needs that is a selfish sin as well. That means to some you did it for the sense of self satisfaction,instead of the satisfaction in knowing you might have prevented someone for going without.

[Robert]

For some reason the religious convictions of Robert does not seem to have brought him any peace. That by itself says a lot...

Bonnie, I would appreciate it if you stop attacking me. It's getting very old. Attack my message, if you will.

[M. T. Cross]

Originally Posted By: EmptyCross

Wonderful, but now can you answer the question.

I just did...you missed it.

No you danced around it and talked about how we should feel about others and how they should in return feel that about us. But at the end of the day we live in these bodies, we live with ourselves because however it started - creation or what have you - we are individuals. Should that agape not include ones own being?

Thats what I am asking.

[M. T. Cross]

Originally Posted By: bonnie

For some reason the religious convictions of Robert does not seem to have brought him any peace. That by itself says a lot...

Bonnie, I would appreciate it if you stop attacking me. It's getting very old. Attack my message, if you will.

The message is always going to be considered by the character of the person delivering it Robert.