olger Posted January 8, 2013 Posted January 8, 2013 Same old....same old!!!! Gotta laugh at the same old rhetoric from everyone and anyone about guns. We are a smidgen away from being under tyranny anyway, but of course the libs don't care. They just have no idea that it will be just as bad for them as it is for anyone else, except of course, the elite. I have watched many of our freedoms and rights go right out the door over the last few decades and I am sick of it. If the libs don't like guns then don't have one but they should just shut up about our right to own them. Maybe they should all move to NY where they can only drink 16-oz or smaller sweet drinks. FORSOOTH Quote "Please don't feed the drama queens.."
Administrators Tom Wetmore Posted January 8, 2013 Administrators Posted January 8, 2013 No Tom, it doesn't protect the right of the militia to bear arms, it specifically protects the right of the "people". And for good reason. These people had just escaped from tyranny, and they knew what it would take to stop it from happening again. Consider this: A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, (COMMA) (That was a statement of fact. Ok we have to have a militia, that's a given. And due to that fact.... the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed. It creates a balance, between the militia and the people. Because there is a militia, the people will also be allowed to keep arms. But even if you don't want to believe that, notice that it doesn't grant the militia anything. Only "the people" are the object of this whole ammendment. And the only ones granted anything. You have to read the amendment as a unified whole. Picking and choosing and ignoring what you do not like is not being faithful to the original intent. You simply cannot read the whole without the contextual setting or security of the free state. It is a single sentence expressing a singular concept and not disconnected conflicting ideas. Just the phrase "keep and bear arms" is not the same as individual rights to have a private weapon. The word "keep" used in connection with bearing arms had a distinct military meaning related to it old English usage as a noun, i.e. "the keep" or stronghold of the castle where provisions, equipment, and battle armaments were stored in readiness. Quote "Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good." "Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal." "I love God only as much as the person I love the least." *Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth. (And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.)
OzarkWoman Posted January 8, 2013 Posted January 8, 2013 Originally Posted By: RLH No Tom, it doesn't protect the right of the militia to bear arms, it specifically protects the right of the "people". And for good reason. These people had just escaped from tyranny, and they knew what it would take to stop it from happening again. Consider this: A well regulated militia, being necessary to the security of a free state, (COMMA) (That was a statement of fact. Ok we have to have a militia, that's a given. And due to that fact.... the right of the people to keep and bear arms, shall not be infringed. It creates a balance, between the militia and the people. Because there is a militia, the people will also be allowed to keep arms. But even if you don't want to believe that, notice that it doesn't grant the militia anything. Only "the people" are the object of this whole ammendment. And the only ones granted anything. You have to read the amendment as a unified whole. Picking and choosing and ignoring what you do not like is not being faithful to the original intent. You simply cannot read the whole without the contextual setting or security of the free state. It is a single sentence expressing a singular concept and not disconnected conflicting ideas. Just the phrase "keep and bear arms" is not the same as individual rights to have a private weapon. The word "keep" used in connection with bearing arms had a distinct military meaning related to it old English usage as a noun, i.e. "the keep" or stronghold of the castle where provisions, equipment, and battle armaments were stored in readiness. Yeah, like most Christians and denominations do. I get that. Quote
Neil D Posted January 8, 2013 Posted January 8, 2013 So, let me get this straight.... The prevailing view of gun owners is that the founding fathers had foresight enough to place into the constitution the 2nd amendment, that is, allowing the citizenry to keep guns against a future government that was sure to come to oppress it's own citizens.... Is that what I am hearing? Why, in heavens name, would they do that? they would have the history of Europe, and would have fashioned a country in which everyone was free, the playing field was level, and everyone was able to make a good living as they saw fit...In all likelihood, in creating this country, there would have been NO NEED to legislate guns to the citizenry....in any case, that is redundant in that, IF the government were to oppress it's own citizens in the form of neighborhood ghettos, slaves or prisons gangs, and even death camps, the citizens, recognizing the oppressive nature of it's government, would begin stock piling guns and ammo... [Looking around]...I don't see that...Am I missing something here??? Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw
CoAspen Posted January 8, 2013 Posted January 8, 2013 The prelims started today for the killer of the people at the theater this summer. Maybe I should tell the defense to call on christians and let them explain how they need to own assault weapons and there by gain some support for this poor misguided individual. Ludicrous? Of course it is!!! So are these threads about the need to own such weapons of mass destruction. Doesn't anyone find this continued defense of such totally mind blowing on a Christian web site?? I hear a lot of fear and denial of the abilities of the God that is claimed to be all powerful. (I'm going to church Saturday and I've got my AK...try and stop me!! Punk!) Quote
Moderators lazarus Posted January 8, 2013 Author Moderators Posted January 8, 2013 We are a smidgen away from being under tyranny anyway, If this is true then many millions of Americans were living under tyranny, in America, since its inception. By this measure America has been under a succession of tyrannical governments. Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein
Moderators lazarus Posted January 8, 2013 Author Moderators Posted January 8, 2013 If only those free slaves were allowed to own guns what a difference it would have made. Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein
Ted Oplinger Posted January 8, 2013 Posted January 8, 2013 Gun control was originally meant to keep slaves in their place - disarmed and unable to defend themselves. Control of another's ability to defend is the first step of enslavement. Slaves that were brought to America were first deprived of this right in their native lands. Slaves that were proclaimed free after the Civil War were subjected to gun control in the effort to bring them back under de facto slavery again. Quote "As iron sharpens iron, so also does one man sharpen another" - Proverbs 27:17 "The offense of the cross is that the cross is a confession of human frailty and sin and of inability to do any good thing. To take the cross of Christ means to depend solely on Him for everything, and this is the abasement of all human pride. Men love to fancy themselves independent. But let the cross be preached, let it be made known that in man dwells no good thing and that all must be received as a gift, and straightway someone is offended." Ellet J. Waggoner, The Glad Tidings "Courage is being scared to death - and saddling up anyway" - John Wayne "The person who pays an ounce of principle for a pound of popularity gets badly cheated" - Ronald Reagan
Ted Oplinger Posted January 8, 2013 Posted January 8, 2013 Quoted by debjm Quote: Government could not be utterly trusted to not potentially turn against the interest of the people, so the people had the right to remain armed, in case the government needed to be overturned. so the three branches of government keep each other in check, and if that failed the people would be able by force of arms to put a check on the government "Tench Coxe, writing as "the Pennsylvanian" in the Philadelphia Federal Gazette, 1788: "The power of the sword, say the minority of Pennsylvania, is in the hands of Congress. My friends and countrymen, it is not so, for the powers of the sword are in the hands of the yeomanry of America from 16 to 60. The militia of these free commonwealths, entitled and accustomed to their arms, when compared with any possible army, must be tremendous and irresistible. Who are the militia? Are they not ourselves? Is it feared, then, that we shall turn our arms each man against his own bosom? Congress has no power to disarm the militia. Their swords, and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birthright of an American. The unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people." The words, “every other terrible implement of the soldier” necessarily mean what is available to the soldier today – which includes the much profaned “assault rifle” (as well as a great number of other weapons deemed to have no place among the common man today). As for our birthrights - it remains the free choice of Americans to accept, or abnegate, this responsibility and birthright. A significant plurality today chooses to reject rather than embrace this birthright, thinking that because a) we are “too noble” and “too civilized” to ever need to take up arms as a people, and we dwell in the deceptive thought our standing armies and police forces would never be used against us, we have no need for these barbaric implements of destruction. Yet America’s Founding Fathers – and indeed, the general population at that time – thought very differently about the “most civilized nation” on earth at that time – Britain. Again quoted by debjm: Quote: George Washington's address to the second session of the First U.S. Congress: "Firearms stand next in importance to the Constitution itself. They are the American people's liberty, teeth and keystone under independence. The church, the plow, the prairie wagon and citizens' firearms are indelibly related. From the hour the pilgrims landed to the present day, events, occurrences and tendencies prove that, to ensure peace, security and happiness, the rifle and pistol are equally indispensable. Every corner of this land knows firearms, and more than 99 and 99/100 percent of them by their silence indicate that they are in safe and sane hands. The very atmosphere of firearms anywhere and everywhere restrains evil influence. They deserve a place of honor with all that's good. When firearms go, all goes. We need them every hour.” That statement by our first President is directly relevant to our debate today: the fact that only a miniscule number of firearms used on any given day are used in criminal/evil ways ought to be a forceful part of the debate. The fact that firearms used to commit crime are miniscule in number compared to those used by the common citizen to deter crime daily, ought also figure prominently as well. The Second Amendment centers directly upon the right and responsibility of the common man to defend the life and liberty God has given, from foes foreign and domestic…whether that foe is an invading army, a predatory criminal, or even our own government drunk with its own sense of righteousness and power. We know of the criminal threat daily. But do we think a foreign invasion or another American Civil War absolutely out of the realm of possibility? Not by the headlines coming out today. Only the foolish think, “Not here! Not today in my land!” Wherewith are you going to constrain such things? The Second Amendment is not about hunting or shooting sports. It is about reminding us that peace and safety come with the price of taking up the responsibility of using the best tools available to keep both the criminal and the tyrant at bay. It appears the AR-15 and the AK-47 are becoming the twin poster children for this debate…which is why these are being bought in record numbers today, against that possibility of one day our government telling its people they have no right to constrain it by force. Yet, with our laws, these two rifle genres are the best tools available to the American public to prevent just that possibility. Blessings Quote "As iron sharpens iron, so also does one man sharpen another" - Proverbs 27:17 "The offense of the cross is that the cross is a confession of human frailty and sin and of inability to do any good thing. To take the cross of Christ means to depend solely on Him for everything, and this is the abasement of all human pride. Men love to fancy themselves independent. But let the cross be preached, let it be made known that in man dwells no good thing and that all must be received as a gift, and straightway someone is offended." Ellet J. Waggoner, The Glad Tidings "Courage is being scared to death - and saddling up anyway" - John Wayne "The person who pays an ounce of principle for a pound of popularity gets badly cheated" - Ronald Reagan
OzarkWoman Posted January 8, 2013 Posted January 8, 2013 Gun control was originally meant to keep slaves in their place - disarmed and unable to defend themselves. Control of another's ability to defend is the first step of enslavement. Slaves that were brought to America were first deprived of this right in their native lands. Slaves that were proclaimed free after the Civil War were subjected to gun control in the effort to bring them back under de facto slavery again. Absolutely correct!!! And it is about nothing but control now. Quote
Moderators lazarus Posted January 8, 2013 Author Moderators Posted January 8, 2013 Gen. McChrystal: Assault rifles are for battlefields, not schools Former Gen. Stanley McChrystal, who led the war in Afghanistan, endorsed strong gun control laws Tuesday on Morning Joe. “I spent a career carrying typically either an M16 or an M4 Carbine. An M4 Carbine fires a .223 caliber round which is 5.56 mm at about 3000 feet per second. When it hits a human body, the effects are devastating. It’s designed for that,” McChrystal explained. “That’s what our soldiers ought to carry. I personally don’t think there’s any need for that kind of weaponry on the streets and particularly around the schools in America.” Quote Great spirits have always found violent opposition from mediocrities. The latter cannot understand it when a man does not thoughtlessly submit to hereditary prejudices but honestly and courageously uses his intelligence. Einstein
OzarkWoman Posted January 8, 2013 Posted January 8, 2013 Gen. McChrystal: Assault rifles are for battlefields, not schools Former Gen. Stanley McChrystal, who led the war in Afghanistan, endorsed strong gun control laws Tuesday on Morning Joe. “I spent a career carrying typically either an M16 or an M4 Carbine. An M4 Carbine fires a .223 caliber round which is 5.56 mm at about 3000 feet per second. When it hits a human body, the effects are devastating. It’s designed for that,” McChrystal explained. “That’s what our soldiers ought to carry. I personally don’t think there’s any need for that kind of weaponry on the streets and particularly around the schools in America.” Whoopie!!!! His opinion is like all of ours....we all have them. Quote
Planey Posted January 8, 2013 Posted January 8, 2013 Whoopie!!!! His opinion is like all of ours....we all have them. But some people's opinion may be based on a much wider experience, and hence carry more weight. Graeme Quote Graeme____________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Guest Posted January 8, 2013 Posted January 8, 2013 But some people's opinion may be based on a much wider experience, and hence carry more weight. Or not. His opinion is no more valid than mine or almost anybody else's. Him being a former General doesn't make him know how the rest of us ought to live. Quote
Guest Posted January 8, 2013 Posted January 8, 2013 Gun control was originally meant to keep slaves in their place - disarmed and unable to defend themselves. Control of another's ability to defend is the first step of enslavement. Slaves that were brought to America were first deprived of this right in their native lands. Slaves that were proclaimed free after the Civil War were subjected to gun control in the effort to bring them back under de facto slavery again. The Iron Deacon!! Where have you been? I was just wondering about what had happened to you, on the way to work this morning. And now here you are. That's amazing! Does that mean I have ESP? Quote
Ted Oplinger Posted January 8, 2013 Posted January 8, 2013 Been very busy, battling a number of different issues in life. Have lurked on and off, and have mellowed a bit (hard to tell, though, with those closest to me!), but I am still around. Felt it was time to start stirring the pot some more Blessings! Quote "As iron sharpens iron, so also does one man sharpen another" - Proverbs 27:17 "The offense of the cross is that the cross is a confession of human frailty and sin and of inability to do any good thing. To take the cross of Christ means to depend solely on Him for everything, and this is the abasement of all human pride. Men love to fancy themselves independent. But let the cross be preached, let it be made known that in man dwells no good thing and that all must be received as a gift, and straightway someone is offended." Ellet J. Waggoner, The Glad Tidings "Courage is being scared to death - and saddling up anyway" - John Wayne "The person who pays an ounce of principle for a pound of popularity gets badly cheated" - Ronald Reagan
Ted Oplinger Posted January 8, 2013 Posted January 8, 2013 ESP...as in Extra Special Personality? Quote "As iron sharpens iron, so also does one man sharpen another" - Proverbs 27:17 "The offense of the cross is that the cross is a confession of human frailty and sin and of inability to do any good thing. To take the cross of Christ means to depend solely on Him for everything, and this is the abasement of all human pride. Men love to fancy themselves independent. But let the cross be preached, let it be made known that in man dwells no good thing and that all must be received as a gift, and straightway someone is offended." Ellet J. Waggoner, The Glad Tidings "Courage is being scared to death - and saddling up anyway" - John Wayne "The person who pays an ounce of principle for a pound of popularity gets badly cheated" - Ronald Reagan
doug yowell Posted January 8, 2013 Posted January 8, 2013 But some people's opinion may be based on a much wider experience, and hence carry more weight. Graeme Obviously Gen. McChrystal has never experienced the woodchuck problem that Tom's dad has. Quote
Guest Posted January 8, 2013 Posted January 8, 2013 Been very busy, battling a number of different issues in life. Have lurked on and off, and have mellowed a bit (hard to tell, though, with those closest to me!), but I am still around. Felt it was time to start stirring the pot some more Blessings! I've mellowed out too, to the point where I'm not even mean anymore. Or at least it's harder to tell. From a distance. ) Quote
Members phkrause Posted January 8, 2013 Members Posted January 8, 2013 Or not. His opinion is no more valid than mine or almost anybody else's. Him being a former General doesn't make him know how the rest of us ought to live. In general I do agree with your post. No one person's opinion is better than anothers. But what I disagree on is if someone who has more knowledge. Take for example Printing. when I first started in the business, when I was 17 and would have a problem an experienced pressman would give me his opinion/advice. Now since he had more experience than I did, his opinion/advice had much more weight than someone that is an automechanic. So for the General to give his opinion does carry much weight as far as certain weapons are concerned. Now as far as someone telling me how to live, I'll let God do that. I don't believe the General is telling anyone how to live, and I wouldn't doubt that he probably owns a firearm, so I really don't think he cares how we live our lives. He was asked his opinion and he gave it. But as you say, its just another opinion, but to me its a very experienced opinion, someone that has used this weapon extensively. More than anyone on this forum, except for those of us that have served in the military and fired weapons in training. Quote phkrause When the righteous are in authority, the people rejoice; But when a wicked man rules, the people groan. Proverbs 29;2
Planey Posted January 9, 2013 Posted January 9, 2013 Obviously Gen. McChrystal has never experienced the woodchuck problem that Tom's dad has. Graeme Quote Graeme____________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Planey Posted January 9, 2013 Posted January 9, 2013 ...have mellowed a bit... Maybe the Bronze Deacon now, eh? Graeme Quote Graeme____________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Ted Oplinger Posted January 9, 2013 Posted January 9, 2013 Nope, Planey, no alchemy here. Thought iron mellows and tempers to...steel! Blessings! Quote "As iron sharpens iron, so also does one man sharpen another" - Proverbs 27:17 "The offense of the cross is that the cross is a confession of human frailty and sin and of inability to do any good thing. To take the cross of Christ means to depend solely on Him for everything, and this is the abasement of all human pride. Men love to fancy themselves independent. But let the cross be preached, let it be made known that in man dwells no good thing and that all must be received as a gift, and straightway someone is offended." Ellet J. Waggoner, The Glad Tidings "Courage is being scared to death - and saddling up anyway" - John Wayne "The person who pays an ounce of principle for a pound of popularity gets badly cheated" - Ronald Reagan
Neil D Posted January 9, 2013 Posted January 9, 2013 In general I do agree with your post. No one person's opinion is better than anothers. But what I disagree on is if someone who has more knowledge. Take for example Printing. when I first started in the business, when I was 17 and would have a problem an experienced pressman would give me his opinion/advice. Now since he had more experience than I did, his opinion/advice had much more weight than someone that is an automechanic. So for the General to give his opinion does carry much weight as far as certain weapons are concerned. Now as far as someone telling me how to live, I'll let God do that. I don't believe the General is telling anyone how to live, and I wouldn't doubt that he probably owns a firearm, so I really don't think he cares how we live our lives. He was asked his opinion and he gave it. But as you say, its just another opinion, but to me its a very experienced opinion, someone that has used this weapon extensively. More than anyone on this forum, except for those of us that have served in the military and fired weapons in training. Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw
Neil D Posted January 9, 2013 Posted January 9, 2013 It was written to guard against gov't tyranny. Why? What historical president is quoted? We [the weak colonies] just got thru beating the then world's greatest army into submission into letting us have our freedom.... ....and then, we make this 2nd amendment to guard against...whom...US??? Where are our priorities at that time? Against government or for creating the best possible freedom loving government that we can provide? Doesn't that context have influence to our understanding of the Second Amendment??? Rebuttal? Quote Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve. George Bernard Shaw
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