Mark of the Beast - what is it? For non-SDA?

[BobRyan]

If you were not an SDA but you understood all the Bible truth that you know today - yet had no access to any of Ellen White's material - and someone asked you "What is the Mark of the Beast according to the Bible?" -- what would you say?

666? "Number of his name"

Mark of the beast - something that lets you buy or sell at the end of time?

Mark of the beast - a sin against God?

Something that follows the setting up of the image to the beast and signs and wonders?

Anything else?

in Christ,

Bob

[phkrause]

If you were not an SDA but you understood all the Bible truth that you know today - yet had no access to any of Ellen White's material - and someone asked you "What is the Mark of the Beast according to the Bible?" -- what would you say?

666? "Number of his name"

Mark of the beast - something that lets you buy or sell at the end of time?

Mark of the beast - a sin against God?

Something that follows the setting up of the image to the beast and signs and wonders?

Anything else?

in Christ,

Bob

Great question Bob. But even as an SDA if you didn't know what the Mark of the Beast was would it matter? I'm not saying that its not important but does it do anything for our salvation? If we live by the principals of the Bible as its written and really didn't know how to interpret prophecy, or didn't have access to all this knowledge that is available to us today: EGWs writings, TV, etc., etc., would it matter in the long run if we knew who or what the "Mark of the Beast" was, is, will be?

[Ted Oplinger]

If you were not an SDA but you understood all the Bible truth that you know today - yet had no access to any of Ellen White's material - and someone asked you "What is the Mark of the Beast according to the Bible?" -- what would you say?

666? "Number of his name"

Mark of the beast - something that lets you buy or sell at the end of time?

Mark of the beast - a sin against God?

Something that follows the setting up of the image to the beast and signs and wonders?

Anything else?

in Christ,

Bob

I think I might begin with the real issue of sin (as seen in Eden with Eve), and move on from there.

The Mark of the Beast has more to do with a mindset than a behavior, such as a choice in days of worship.

There was a certain sequence that happened within the minds of both Adam and Eve prior to the eating of forbidden fruit. The eating was simply the end result of what went on in the mind.

Likewise the Mark of the Beast. Were it a simple choice of days, ignorance would be a plausible defense. However, the global extent and effect of the 7 plagues reveal there is something deeper in play than an option of day of worship, for not even receiving the plagues shakes them from their choice.

Blessings,

[BobRyan]

[

Great question Bob. But even as an SDA if you didn't know what the Mark of the Beast was would it matter? I'm not saying that its not important but does it do anything for our salvation? If we live by the principals of the Bible as its written and really didn't know how to interpret prophecy, or didn't have access to all this knowledge that is available to us today: EGWs writings, TV, etc., etc., would it matter in the long run if we knew who or what the "Mark of the Beast" was, is, will be?

Isn't that kind of like saying to Noah "if you did not know what a world wide flood was - would it matter?".

Or in the case of Lot "if you did not know what fire falling from heaven meant - would it matter?"

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

BOBRYAN

those are good thoughts

what about the Anti- Christ

just thinking

dgrimm60

There are a lot of non-SDA Bible scholars in the past that have looked at 1John 2, 2Thess 2, Daniel 7 and 8, and come up with the answer for the AntiChrist.

It seems to me that we can show that one and find agreement that others see it too.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

If you were not an SDA but you understood all the Bible truth that you know today - yet had no access to any of Ellen White's material - and someone asked you "What is the Mark of the Beast according to the Bible?" -- what would you say?

666? "Number of his name"

Mark of the beast - something that lets you buy or sell at the end of time?

Mark of the beast - a sin against God?

Something that follows the setting up of the image to the beast and signs and wonders?

Anything else?

in Christ,

Bob

[Ted Oplinger]

Originally Posted By: BobRyan

If you were not an SDA but you understood all the Bible truth that you know today - yet had no access to any of Ellen White's material - and someone asked you "What is the Mark of the Beast according to the Bible?" -- what would you say?

666? "Number of his name"

Mark of the beast - something that lets you buy or sell at the end of time?

Mark of the beast - a sin against God?

Something that follows the setting up of the image to the beast and signs and wonders?

Anything else?

in Christ,

Bob

Originally Posted By: Ted Oplinger

I think I might begin with the real issue of sin (as seen in Eden with Eve), and move on from there.

The Mark of the Beast has more to do with a mindset than a behavior, such as a choice in days of worship.

There was a certain sequence that happened within the minds of both Adam and Eve prior to the eating of forbidden fruit.

We find the statement on the mark of the beast in Revelation 13. It does not say "Adam had the mark of the beast" nor does it say that "all sinners have always had the mark of the beast - in all of time.".

It is described as a future event - not something that has always been with us.

I don't know that the text leads us to " a day of worship" in Rev 13 or 14.

What the text does tell us is that there is a division between those who worship God and keep His commandments (and get the seal of God) --- as compared to those who worship the beast and receive the mark of the beast.

I am not claiming that the issue of the Sabbath day vs the NSL is not involved - I am just saying that from the text alone - that is too much of a fine grain detail to get from the Bible, and you can't rely on the Catholic Church to make the case for you.

in Christ,

Bob

Hmmm...jumping to a conclusion there, Bob.

Never did say the mark was with us throughout all time. I would start that discussion of the mark by first discussing the real issue of sin. Very major difference.

Eden is where the clearest example is, so that's where the discussion begins.

Once that is understood, then one can understand the mindset that drives the mark in both its forms - the forehead and the right hand. It is not driven by mere behavior, just like the seal of God is not a mere behavior thing, either.

Behavior - the making of a choice to obey God's Word or not - is the consequence of which mindset a person adopts.

I currently understand the mark to be linked to what is written in 2 Thessalonians 2:7-10. There, the lawless one allied with Satan will manifest the full bloom of lawlessness in some way seen only at the end of time, though its roots can already to be seen at work in Paul's day. Roots aren't the flower though, so what Paul saw working was not the dreaded Mark.

This link is understood only through the concept of what the sin issue is. Otherwise, all one see is yet another florid prophecy of a coming bad boy.

Where there is lawlessness, there is righteousness by contrast. That leads to 1 Timothy 3:16, where Paul talks of the mystery of godliness, as it was seen in Christ. If Rev. 12:17 and 14:12 are true, the mystery of godliness will also become full bloom, as that was Christ's testimony of the Father (John 14:9). Again, a mindset is involved which drives the choices.

This is the contrast set up: Mark of the Beast, versus Seal of God. Both contain the full bloom of mystery not seen until the very end, yet are driven by mindsets traceable back to Eden and Calvary.

As for claiming Sabbath vs NSL not being involved...I have noted your posts in the past on the subject, so no worries there.

Getting a good clear picture of the Mark - or of the Seal - means bringing together several concepts from all over Scripture.

Saying the Pope is the AC, and Sunday is the Mark, doesn't cut it with me, either.

Blessings,

[BobRyan]

If you were not an SDA but you understood all the Bible truth that you know today - yet had no access to any of Ellen White's material - and someone asked you "What is the Mark of the Beast according to the Bible?" -- what would you say?

666? "Number of his name"

Mark of the beast - something that lets you buy or sell at the end of time?

Mark of the beast - a sin against God?

Something that follows the setting up of the image to the beast and signs and wonders?

Anything else?

[BobRyan]

one more wrinkle.

Ellen White says that the full details about the mark of the beast "will not be understood until the unrolling of the scroll". LDE 17.2

[fccool]

Quote:

Near a tree by a river

There's a hole in the ground

Where an old man of Aran

Goes around and around

And his mind is a beacon

In the veil of the night

For a strange kind of fashion

There's a wrong and a right

But he'll never

Never fight over you

Can you solve this riddle?

[phkrause]

Originally Posted By: pkrause

[

Great question Bob. But even as an SDA if you didn't know what the Mark of the Beast was would it matter? I'm not saying that its not important but does it do anything for our salvation? If we live by the principals of the Bible as its written and really didn't know how to interpret prophecy, or didn't have access to all this knowledge that is available to us today: EGWs writings, TV, etc., etc., would it matter in the long run if we knew who or what the "Mark of the Beast" was, is, will be?

Isn't that kind of like saying to Noah "if you did not know what a world wide flood was - would it matter?".

Or in the case of Lot "if you did not know what fire falling from heaven meant - would it matter?"

in Christ,

Bob

Not at all in my opinion.

[Kountzer]

Protestant reformers knew who or what institution was/is the beast of Revelation. Long before Adventists and Ellen White came around. The beast itself claims the establishment of Sunday as the mark of her authority. All the rest is a lot of msg board nonsense.

[JoeMo]

What is the mark of the beast? Rev. 13:16-17 says:

"It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads, so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name."

It seems to me from this verse that it is some ort of physical mark (or a chip or form of ID) that allows or enables people to participate in the market place. If you son't have this mark (or ID - maybe an implanted RFI chip ir "smart card), you bant buy and sell things. It sounds like it take place in the marketplace, not the spiritual realm. Receiving this mark may involve some sort of spiritual compromise, but the initial consequences take place in the market.

[JoeMo]

Quote:

Quote:

Near a tree by a river

There's a hole in the ground

Where an old man of Aran

Goes around and around

And his mind is a beacon

In the veil of the night

For a strange kind of fashion

There's a wrong and a right

But he'll never

Never fight over you

Can you solve this riddle?

Originally, these words come from a song written by a rather obscure songwriter from the 1980's by the name of Niki Kershaw.

According toa "Best Answers website on the British Yahoo:

Quote:

Aran is an ancient region in what is now Azerbaijan, between the Kura and Araks rivers. Like Babylon (Iraq), it has been fought over for thousands of years, and also like Babylon, Aran has some of the world's richest oil fields. Aran was, at the time the song was written, one of the most important oil refining centers in the Soviet Union.

Aran was also the stronghold of the ancient Zoroastrian religion, where many famed fire temples burned beacons to symbolize the wisdom of God ( Azerbaijan means "Land of the eternal flame") It is possible that "old man of Aran" refers to Zoroaster (Zarathushtra). The core precepts of Zoroastrianism are human equality, fairness, environmental responsibility and the ethical treatment of animals (pretty much the same as Kershaw's songs). It is therefore very ironic that Aran has become a center for oil refining, the ultimate fuel for war, empire-building and environmental devastation.

[Kountzer]

What is the mark of the beast? Rev. 13:16-17 says:

"It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads, so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name."

It seems to me from this verse that it is some ort of physical mark (or a chip or form of ID) that allows or enables people to participate in the market place. If you son't have this mark (or ID - maybe an implanted RFI chip ir "smart card), you bant buy and sell things. It sounds like it take place in the marketplace, not the spiritual realm. Receiving this mark may involve some sort of spiritual compromise, but the initial consequences take place in the market.

I think not. A few years ago they were doling out flu shots. The state of Texas couldn't come up with enough vaccine to cover less than half the state's population. With that in mind how can they plant chips in 6 billion people? It'll never happen. The mark is Sunday worship. The beast is the catholic church, essentially. No other theory fits.

[Windsor]

The mark of the beast is symbolic. You receive it in either your hand or your forehead. It can't be something so obvious as a chip. If the government started to force people to have a chip, their choice where it's located - head or hand - it would be far far too obvious to even the unbeliever. No, but the chip in the hand symbolizes action and the chip in the head symbolizes ones thoughts. As Adventists understand it, if you keep Sunday holy and reject Saturday in order to keep food on your table (even if you know in your mind what you are doing is wrong), then you have received the mark in your hand. I've heard excuses through the years where people say things like "God knows what's in my heart so He doesn't mind if I do this wrong thing". In the end time, that would be receiving it in the hand. On the other hand, I believe most people will receive the mark in their forehead. This represents people who have truly fallen for the Sunday deception because they haven't been reading their Bibles and maintaining a close relationship with Christ. Those current Sunday keepers who truly love God, when the mark of the beast comes, will finally keep the Sabbath holy and receive the seal of God. Ellen White states that many Adventists will leave the church only to be replaced by many more joining the church around the time of the end.

[JoeMo]

If the mark is symbolic, how is it going to enable you to buy and sell? Is the mark that you speak of Sunday worship or failing to worship on Sabbath? I'm personally OK with worshipping on Sunday (or any/every other day of the week for that matter). It's NOT worshipping on Sabbath that I have a problem with.

[Kountzer]

If the mark is symbolic, how is it going to enable you to buy and sell? Is the mark that you speak of Sunday worship or failing to worship on Sabbath? I'm personally OK with worshipping on Sunday (or any/every other day of the week for that matter). It's NOT worshipping on Sabbath that I have a problem with.

The same power that many, both sda and non sda, consider to be the beast has considerable power and control, hegemony even, in Ecclesiatical realm, as well as in world politics and world banking systems. We live in a highly scrutinized, computerized world system. We are practically a cashless society, and becoming more so everyday. It would be easy for those in control to say "'xyz' is not with the program, cut off their debit card transactions".

[BobRyan]

Protestant reformers knew who or what institution was/is the beast of Revelation. Long before Adventists and Ellen White came around. The beast itself claims the establishment of Sunday as the mark of her authority. All the rest is a lot of msg board nonsense.

That is true - but then you are relying on the beast to tell you what the mark of the beast is - nothing stops the beast from changing its claim to something like "my little red shoes are my mark". And the beast has (as it turns out) a number of things that it claims to be its sign or its most significant mark - we are picking one of them, all of which they have had for a number of centuries -- yet we claim this is future. And they make no statements about introducing some new mark/sign in the future.

In my opinion God is not sending us to the beast to get our facts on the mark of the beast that will exist someday in the future.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

If the mark is symbolic, how is it going to enable you to buy and sell?

Agreed. Just as the seal of God has to be spiritual and also include a real mark that Angels can see but not mankind, so also the mark of the beast of Rev 13 must not only be spiritual but also has to have some physical aspect that the cashier or banker or vending machine can detect without doing a religious convictions survey.

in Christ,

Bob

[Windsor]

Right, the mark is symbolic. However, it will have to be enforced in some literal way. A national ID card perhaps?

[Tom Wetmore]

If the mark is symbolic, how is it going to enable you to buy and sell? Is the mark that you speak of Sunday worship or failing to worship on Sabbath? I'm personally OK with worshipping on Sunday (or any/every other day of the week for that matter). It's NOT worshipping on Sabbath that I have a problem with.

While I won't dismiss the connection to Sabbath entirely, I do think in the end the evidence of those marked and sealed will be manifested in ways that are far deeper and broader than that one simple behavioral choice.

First we must recognize the apocryphal style of writing and its use of symbolic imagery evoked by the reference. The method of finding its meaning is to remember that one must look back in time/context to get the connection. The obvious imagery is to an image/beast to involved forced response to it. The Jews had been forced into exile by Babylon, enslaved by a power that controlled their temporal life (economic allusion of buying and selling) but also climaxed at one point of forcing worship of an image to that power. Those who complied were allowed to live and participate in the commerce of Babylon. But there is a further allusion to previous slavery of God's people by Egypt that evoked a seal that symbolized to safe passage to freedom from that slavery, the blood of the lamb sealing the door posts. What marks do slaves have that indicate who they belong to?

Flash forward to the end, when the angel of judgment is asked to release the captives of sin. Those who have been sealed by the blood of the Lamb will be freed to proceed to the Promised Land. Those that have not, but have chosen rather to remain in slavery to sin either by their choice (head/mental decision) not to accept that seal and their action (hand) of not using the blood of the Lamb, choosing rather to keep the mark of slavery.

There is a more proximate contextual clue within Revelation of the buy/sell symbolism in the message to Laodicea. In Rev 3:18 Jesus instructs them to "buy" from him something which alludes back to Isaiah 55:1 of buying something that is without price, or free. The alternative spiritual economy of the beast was at great cost by force.

Mark of the Beast vs. Seal of God

Attitude and action (head and hand)

Mark of the Beast

666

Self-righteous

Rebellion

Force, anger and hate

Accusations

Doing as self pleases

Seal of God

144,000

Christ’s Righteousness

Submission

Free will, love and compassion

No Condemnation, Redeemed, Joy

Follows the Lamb and faithful to his commands

[JoeMo]

Tom,

I was gonna add to your list of "Marks" vs. "Seals"; but everything a came up with was synonymous with items already on your list. I think that the Mark will likely be imposed by the Beast system based on socioreligious standards; but there will have to be a physical manifestation of it to allow or prohibit participation in the marketplace.

Quote:

What marks do slaves have that indicate who they belong to?

Historically, it was usually a tattoo or a piercing.

[Ted Oplinger]

In understood your original post to ask where would we start presenting the concept of the Mark with a non-SDA, not what I thought it was.

I told you where I would start on the subject.

Without asking why I would choose that seemingly unrelated starting point, it would appear you are slicing and dicing before you even understand why I would start there.

I indicated the Mark was yet future. However, nothing happens in a vacuum, Bob. Everything has a source root from whence the object/item springs from, making the same possible to flourish.

Satan is very careful in his plans, and those plans begin as small roots that come together to a final culmination. Such as it is with the Mark of the Beast.

Blessings,

[hch]

What is the mark of the beast? Rev. 13:16-17 says:

"It also forced all people, great and small, rich and poor, free and slave, to receive a mark on their right hands or on their foreheads, so that they could not buy or sell unless they had the mark, which is the name of the beast or the number of its name."

It seems to me from this verse that it is some sort of physical mark (or a chip or form of ID) that allows or enables people to participate in the market place. If you don't have this mark (or ID - maybe an implanted RFI chip or "smart card), you can't buy and sell things. It sounds like it takes place in the marketplace, not the spiritual realm. Receiving this mark may involve some sort of spiritual compromise, but the initial consequences take place in the market.