Mark of the Beast - what is it? For non-SDA?

[Kountzer]

The shift to a cashless society has been going on for some time now, worldwide. This has been gradually happening for the last 40 years, at least. If you are walking around with $10k and someone robs you, you're likely out of all that money. Whereas if you have a card with that type of limit, if stolen you can at least call and have that card cancelled.

As far as what the mark is, God is not going to give you the most harsh warning in the bible about something, namely the mark of the beast, and not tell you what it is. He has allowed men to see that the adversary is a counterfeiter. The way to catch a counterfeit object is to be familiar with the genuine. The sabbath is God's seal, His mark of loyalty. Conversely Sunday is the seal of Mark of the beast. It's as plain as day, to me anyway. There's a lot more to it, but that is the gist of the situation.

[Tom Wetmore]

Part of the problem of interpretation of this and a number of other parts of Revelation is that we are not consistent in our approach. Most everything is first to be considered symbolic unless clearly not meant to be. And the imagery was drawn from temporal past events in metaphorical relationship to symbolize spiritual realities. (Our battle is not against flesh and blood...) But we are assuming a literal meaning for the mark where it will not be physical or tangible or necessarily apparent to human eyes. Nor will it be a mark of human origin or devising. We are also taking the "buy/sell" literally as meaning temporal commerce.

He has allowed men to see that the adversary is a counterfeiter. The way to catch a counterfeit object is to be familiar with the genuine.

This is a very important thing to remember in understanding Revelation. For each portrayal of the genuine article of God throughout Revelation there is portrayed an impostor, a counterfeit. Instead of the Lamb we have a fearsome beast. For the seal of the Lamb the impostor has the mark of the beast. The number of the saved is 144,000. The number of the lost is 666. Instead of the New Jerusalem, the impostor has Babylon. And so on.

So to understand what the mark of the beast symbolizes, we must understand what it is trying to mimic. On the "buy/sell" part, ask what is the currency of heaven? In true worship of the Lamb what is the price we pay for our salvation? What is the exchange rate? Now think of what price was to be paid in exchange for worship of the beast.

[phkrause]

The shift to a cashless society has been going on for some time now, worldwide. This has been gradually happening for the last 40 years, at least. If you are walking around with $10k and someone robs you, you're likely out of all that money. Whereas if you have a card with that type of limit, if stolen you can at least call and have that card cancelled.

As far as what the mark is, God is not going to give you the most harsh warning in the bible about something, namely the mark of the beast, and not tell you what it is. He has allowed men to see that the adversary is a counterfeiter. The way to catch a counterfeit object is to be familiar with the genuine. The sabbath is God's seal, His mark of loyalty. Conversely Sunday is the seal of Mark of the beast. It's as plain as day, to me anyway. There's a lot more to it, but that is the gist of the situation.

[hch]

Part of the problem of interpretation of this and a number of other parts of Revelation is that we are not consistent in our approach. Most everything is first to be considered symbolic unless clearly not meant to be. And the imagery was drawn from temporal past events in metaphorical relationship to symbolize spiritual realities. (Our battle is not against flesh and blood...) But we are assuming a literal meaning for the mark where it will not be physical or tangible or necessarily apparent to human eyes. Nor will it be a mark of human origin or devising. We are also taking the "buy/sell" literally as meaning temporal commerce.

Originally Posted By: Kountzer

He has allowed men to see that the adversary is a counterfeiter. The way to catch a counterfeit object is to be familiar with the genuine.

This is a very important thing to remember in understanding Revelation. For each portrayal of the genuine article of God throughout Revelation there is portrayed an impostor, a counterfeit. Instead of the Lamb we have a fearsome beast. For the seal of the Lamb the impostor has the mark of the beast. The number of the saved is 144,000. The number of the lost is 666. Instead of the New Jerusalem, the impostor has Babylon. And so on.

So to understand what the mark of the beast symbolizes, we must understand what it is trying to mimic. On the "buy/sell" part, ask what is the currency of heaven? In true worship of the Lamb what is the price we pay for our salvation? What is the exchange rate? Now think of what price was to be paid in exchange for worship of the beast.

Is the currency of heaven the currency of the prophecy when nobody on earth gets to buy and sell?

It is easy to see a beast as symbolic. But should the great earthquake and the sun being darkened be symbolic? Revelation clearly mixes symbols with reality as it narrates endtime events.

[debbym]

i cannot separate out what i have in my heart from e. white, but what i come to from chewing on what i believe is this.

the mark of the beast on people is opposite of the seal of God.

there is something unique that happens tat the end of time, that also happened at the flood.

so the mark of the beast would be those whose destiny is fixed, and who will not repent and turn to God even in the humbling experience of the last plagues. it is a settling of the mind against God that will not and cannot be changed.

the corresponding seal of God are those whose destiny is also settled.

their destiny is settled forever on the side of heaven, to be Godly and reflect the character of Jesus forever.

When keeping the Sabbath is perfectly bound to living for Jesus, and experiencing the love and power of God, you have no desire to choose the break that connection.

Rev 22:3,4 NLT his servants will worship him. 4 And they will see his face, and his name will be written on their foreheads.

this is a description of heaven, which begins on earth.

[Ted Oplinger]

The plagues are a very definite point in human history. Unlike the plagues of Egypt in Exodus (which brought many Egyptians to acknowledge the sovereignty of God and repent), the 7 Plagues in Revelation do not bring anyone to repentance...and they are not designed to do so.

They are brought upon the earth to to give the answer to the questions posed in Revelation 15:4 - "Who shall not fear You, O Lord, and glorify Your name?"

Verse 3 - with its reference to the song of Moses (Exodus 15) indicates the Gospel work is finished. Both Father and Christ have been vindicated here, and those accepting the Gospel participate in that vindication.

As the last battle is between the True Church of God, and the Pretender church known as Babylon who profess God, but deny His Word, these plagues are designed to reveal who is participant with God and who is not. There will be no decisions for God made here, as the words of the 4th plague make it clear the recipients both acknowledge God's sovereignty AND that the Living God is INDEED sending these plagues upon them. Instead of repenting, though, their response to continue their blasphemy: to assert their own self-righteousness even though God has clearly rejected it.

It is Cain and Abel, round 2. This time, though, Abel is rescued before Cain can murder him. The similarities between the first religious conflict in Genesis 4, and the final one depicted throughout Revelation, are striking.

Blessings,

[Bird's Eye View]

I keep reading here that Saturday is the seal of God, but what about Ephesians 1:13-14

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

I'm all for keeping the commandments, but I don't think it is the "seal".

[Ted Oplinger]

I keep reading here that Saturday is the seal of God, but what about Ephesians 1:13-14

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

I'm all for keeping the commandments, but I don't think it is the "seal".

Yes, Ephesians 1:13-14 does indeed declared we are sealed by the Holy Spirit.

Let's think about that for a minute:

sealed - verb, past tense

by - article, indicating position or, in this case, agency

the Holy Spirit - the Spirit of God.

If the Spirit of God is the One doing the sealing, whereby a believer is sealed, what then is the seal the Holy Spirit is applying to the believer during this process?

A sovereign's seal mus contain 3 things: the sovereign's name, his title, and his domain. The Sabbath commandment in Exodus 20:11 gives all three: The Lord (name) made (created - office = Creator) heaven and earth, the sea and all that is in them (domain).

The Lord then set the Sabbath up as a sign between Himself and His people, to indicate He indeed is the Almighty God who sanctifies His people (Exodus 31:13; Ezekiel 20:12; 20). The Lord sanctifying His people does indeed point to the New Testament work of the Holy Spirit upon the heart....which many Christians agree is a sanctifying work.

That is the reason why many here state their belief the Sabbath is the seal of God...God has defined its presence as such in so many terms.

If the Sabbath is not the Seal of God...what then is the Seal the Holy Spirit applied to the believers - an still applies today - with this sealing by which He seals us?

Blessings,

[Bird's Eye View]

Well, to go back again to Ephesians...

"...after you heard the word of truth, the gospel..."

What is the Gospel if not that Christ is our salvation?

Ephesians 3:3-5, "How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

[phkrause]

Originally Posted By: Bird's Eye View

I keep reading here that Saturday is the seal of God, but what about Ephesians 1:13-14

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

I'm all for keeping the commandments, but I don't think it is the "seal".

Yes, Ephesians 1:13-14 does indeed declared we are sealed by the Holy Spirit.

Let's think about that for a minute:

sealed - verb, past tense

by - article, indicating position or, in this case, agency

the Holy Spirit - the Spirit of God.

If the Spirit of God is the One doing the sealing, whereby a believer is sealed, what then is the seal the Holy Spirit is applying to the believer during this process?

A sovereign's seal mus contain 3 things: the sovereign's name, his title, and his domain. The Sabbath commandment in Exodus 20:11 gives all three: The Lord (name) made (created - office = Creator) heaven and earth, the sea and all that is in them (domain).

The Lord then set the Sabbath up as a sign between Himself and His people, to indicate He indeed is the Almighty God who sanctifies His people (Exodus 31:13; Ezekiel 20:12; 20). The Lord sanctifying His people does indeed point to the New Testament work of the Holy Spirit upon the heart....which many Christians agree is a sanctifying work.

That is the reason why many here state their belief the Sabbath is the seal of God...God has defined its presence as such in so many terms.

If the Sabbath is not the Seal of God...what then is the Seal the Holy Spirit applied to the believers - an still applies today - with this sealing by which He seals us?

Blessings,

Excellent post Ted.

[Gibs]

Sure, sealed by the Holy Spirit!

Here you are,

Joh 4:24 God is a Spirit: and they that worship him must worship him in spirit and in truth.

Sabbath is Yahweh's mark,

Sunday is Satan's mark. Many will not see this but Satan is the Beast of Rev 13:11-18 and He is the 666! Rev 13:1-10 is His "image" Beast!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

Of course the classic idea is the issue of keeping all of Gods commandments or not. ALL of them, not just the fourth one. But the fourth one will be THEE final test for the whole world. Before that final test comes, each of us individually will receive some kind of test from God to determine where you stand.

"Where you stand" being the key words on this issue. The sealing is essentially those who have determined to follow God, no matter what. Not family, job, housing, income, nice stuff, risk of jail, threat of death or the Chuch you attend will stand in your way of following God with all your heart and mind and soul.

Being settled into the truth, sealed, in such a way that nothing on this earth will prevent you from doing your duty. HOW will you know the truth? The path of truth and error lay very close together, there is only ONE way to know the difference. Doing the will of God, continually. Living up to the light you have already been given. If you are willfully making a choice to sin (doing anything that you know is not pleasing to God) you become the devils lawful prey. Your mind will become confused, you will be unable to discern truth from error. You are not "settled" into the truth yet, you are not "sealed".

Those who are sealed, have proven themselves to God over a period of time and through great temptations and trials and have reached a place where they cannot be moved to do ANYTHING displeasing to God.

Everyday, we make choices that determine if we are on the path to being sealed or moving away from that path. Every conscience and willful sin is a step away from the sealing.

[Gibs]

Read these carefully,

Joh 17:15 I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil.

Joh 17:16 They are not of the world, even as I am not of the world.

Joh 17:17 ¶ Sanctify them through thy truth: thy word is truth.

Joh 17:18 As thou hast sent me into the world, even so have I also sent them into the world.

Joh 17:19 And for their sakes I sanctify myself, that they also might be sanctified through the truth.

Joh 17:20 ¶ Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

Joh 17:21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

Joh 17:22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

Joh 17:23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.

Joh 17:24 ¶ Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

Joh 17:25 O righteous Father, the world hath not known thee: but I have known thee, and these have known that thou hast sent me.

Joh 17:26 And I have declared unto them thy name, and will declare it: that the love wherewith thou hast loved me may be in them, and I in them.

And then this one,

Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

I ask, do any have any problems as to go to find TRUTH?

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[BobRyan]

i cannot separate out what i have in my heart from e. white, but what i come to from chewing on what i believe is this.

the mark of the beast on people is opposite of the seal of God.

there is something unique that happens tat the end of time, that also happened at the flood.

so the mark of the beast would be those whose destiny is fixed, and who will not repent and turn to God even in the humbling experience of the last plagues.

You are talking about the close of probation. Probation has closed for some individuals all through time - but none of them had the mark of the beast.

in Rev 13 you cannot buy or sell without the mark of the beast. It is highly doubtful that they will have some sort of "close of probation" test at the check-out counter so that you can buy groceries only if your probation is closed and you are lost - and I think you will agree with me on that.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

The plagues are a very definite point in human history. Unlike the plagues of Egypt in Exodus (which brought many Egyptians to acknowledge the sovereignty of God and repent), the 7 Plagues in Revelation do not bring anyone to repentance...and they are not designed to do so.

They are brought upon the earth to to give the answer to the questions posed in Revelation 15:4 - "Who shall not fear You, O Lord, and glorify Your name?"

The plagues are poured out on those who already have the mark of the beast according to Rev 16.

But the Mark of the beast happens before that - according to Rev 14 and 13.

in Christ,

Bob

[ClubV12]

I dunno, posting a whole bunch of bible verses with very little or no explanation or comment, frankly, is a waste of time. It does little to edify anyone. Kind of like a sermon where all the preacher does is standup, read the bible outloud for however long and then sits down. Wake me when the sermons over.... snore....

The plagues, true. The sealing and the mark have already taken place before Michael stands up (Daniel 12:1) and the plagues begin. In that sense, the plagues are irrelevant to the sealing (or the mark).

It wasn't the rain that was a problem in Noahs time, it was the closing of the door BEFORE it rained. All those left outside were "marked", all those inside were "sealed". NEITHER group knew for sure what was going to happen next. Those outside continued on like any other day, buying, selling, building, having a good time. Those inside had about a week to wonder if they had made the right decision, perhaps they were mistaken, WERE they going to be OK? They were sealed, but they weren't sure and were no doubt drawing close to God in reverance and respect (fear).

[BobRyan]

I keep reading here that Saturday is the seal of God, but what about Ephesians 1:13-14

In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,

Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.

I'm all for keeping the commandments, but I don't think it is the "seal".

There are two seals. The one in Eph 1 is applied all throughout history.

But in Rev 7:2 there is an angel that shows up having the seal of God. That seal is a "real mark that angels can see" but is not something humans can see. The plagues cannot be poured out on the earth until the ones that are to be protected by the angels are clearly marked. Sort of like the lamb's blood on the door post prior to the death angel passing from house to house in Egypt.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

Well, to go back again to Ephesians...

"...after you heard the word of truth, the gospel..."

What is the Gospel if not that Christ is our salvation?

Ephesians 3:3-5, "How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,

4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

No question that in all ages - all the saints had to have that seal of God that we find in Eph 1.

But in Rev 7 a specific seal is mentioned just as the mark is mentioned in Ezekiel 9 - which must be applied prior to the beings with the slaughtering weapons of Ezek 9 going through the land.

The Ezek 9 marking event - and the Rev 7 sealing event are the same thing - as it turns out.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

A sovereign's seal mus contain 3 things: the sovereign's name, his title, and his domain. The Sabbath commandment in Exodus 20:11 gives all three: The Lord (name) made (created - office = Creator) heaven and earth, the sea and all that is in them (domain).

The Lord then set the Sabbath up as a sign between Himself and His people, to indicate He indeed is the Almighty God who sanctifies His people (Exodus 31:13; Ezekiel 20:12; 20). The Lord sanctifying His people does indeed point to the New Testament work of the Holy Spirit upon the heart....which many Christians agree is a sanctifying work.

That is the reason why many here state their belief the Sabbath is the seal of God...God has defined its presence as such in so many terms.

That is why the end-time seal of Rev 7 and Ezek 9 is not the seal of Eph 1 that has been applied in all ages to all saints by the Holy Spirit. Those at the end of time - must have both.

in Christ,

Bob

[BobRyan]

The plagues, true. The sealing and the mark have already taken place before Michael stands up (Daniel 12:1) and the plagues begin. In that sense, the plagues are irrelevant to the sealing (or the mark).

It wasn't the rain that was a problem in Noahs time, it was the closing of the door BEFORE it rained. All those left outside were "marked", all those inside were "sealed". NEITHER group knew for sure what was going to happen next. Those outside continued on like any other day, buying, selling, building, having a good time. Those inside had about a week to wonder if they had made the right decision, perhaps they were mistaken, WERE they going to be OK? They were sealed, but they weren't sure and were no doubt drawing close to God in reverance and respect (fear).

Very good point. Very much the issue at the end of the world this time around - and last time around.

in Christ,

Bob

[Gibs]

OK, now who is this beast that it is the mark of! Then prove it!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Bird's Eye View]

No offense, Gibs, but I think the mark of the beast you are referring to is based on the belief that the Sabbath is the mark of God, but I believe that is wrong. I believe it was given to the Israelites, as a sign to them, as it says in Exodus 34

"27 And the Lord said unto Moses, Write thou these words: for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel.

28 And he was there with the Lord forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments.

I do think the mark is the Holy Spirit, based on Ephesians telling us so. (The New Covenant and all.)

If you're looking for the opposite of the the Seventh Day Sabbath, then Sunday would fit the bill.

But if Saturday is not the mark of God, then we have a problem.

[ClubV12]

The old covenant was expounding and detailing the ten commandments one side AND precise instructions of for the ceremonial laws on the other.

The ceremonial laws were passed because they met their fulfillment when Jesus became the lamb. The ten commandments have never passed because they display the very nature of God and He never changes. Adam was bound by the same laws, the ten commandments just as we are today. Adam didn't need them written down, he learned them from direct communication with the angels in the garden. In turn he taught them to his children and on and on, for many centuries!

The new covenant does not do away with the law of God. "Here are they that keep the commandments of God", including the fourth one, the Sabbath. It is STILL a sign of Gods chosen people to this day. Always has been and somewhere on earth at every moment in time, some group has kept the Sabbath, it never died out, never went away. It will be the last test for all mankind, for the whole world, when to honor it risks imprisonment and death. That time has not yet come, but it IS prophesied to come.

[Bird's Eye View]

Well, Club, I am wrestlng with some of those very ideas right now and looking for New Testament scriptures to convince me.

I need to clarify something. A couple of days ago when I joined up here, I was sure that Sabbath-keeping was the right and required thing to do, but after embarking on a thorough combing of the New Testament, I am no longer so sure.

It wasn't my intent to negate the Sabbath issue here, just to discuss what I thought might be the Mark of the Beast, which differs from what is said most places.

I suppose I ought really to bow out of this conversation for the time being and keep wrestling through these things between me and God and the Bible.

It's not my desire here to debate Sabbath keeping, not at an SDA site! And that is where it would be headed, so out of respect for the beliefs of those here, I will say Good-bye for now.

[ClubV12]

Actually, this isn't a bad place to discuss the Sabbath issue, but I do consider it a somewhat dangerous place! There is a lot of misinformation available here as well as truth. There are a number of people claiming to be Adventists and as such "speak for the Church", but they aren't and they don't. So, it's a bit like walking in mine field looking for the treasure!

I am convinced of this, the Sabbath issue will be the final test for all the world as we get very near to the end of time and the return of Christ. Individually we will all be tested on some point of our faith until that happens. For some, it will indeed be the issue of Sabbath. For others it may be something else, everyone who professes to follow Christ will have his own special point of trial.

Heres what helped ME sort through some of the misinformation, readily available all over the web. When someone says, "Adventists believe this or that..." the only way to know for SURE what Adventist believe is to check it out with an official, reliable, really does speak for the Church, source. Like the General Conference of Seventh-day Adventist, what is THEIR position on such and such an issue or doctrine. If you have a hunch something doesn't sound right, maybe it aint right! Then dig a little deeper than "rumor has it".

The official position of the Adventist Church is that Sunday vs Sabbath worship will become a National law at some point. People will be violating the law if they work on Sunday, they could be arrested, even jailed. This was the case with the Pilgrims even! There are various Sunday laws in the United States in effect right now even. "We" believe that it will become a National law eventually. The mark of the beast is really a "settling into the truth", are you going to follow God, no matter what, or mans law? THAT is the question.

Meanwhile, don't believe the lie that the ten commandments have been nailed to the cross or done away with or are no longer binding. Jesus worshiped on Sabbath, as did Peter, as did Paul as did ALL the disciples of the early Church. They never changed the Sabbath, WHO did? Not the bible, not God, that was mans doing, straight up!