Mark of the Beast - what is it? For non-SDA?

[Gustave]

You would say that the Monastic's view is more kooky then what Ellen White put forward?

[Ted Oplinger]

Here Bob, many people believe this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7TdkS2ydGI

To use the the phrase Mr. Nathanel used toward the end of the clip - Amazing, isn't it...that the same old fear-mongering lies leading to the slaughtering of Jews in the Spanish Inquisition, and in the Holocaust of Germany, and the many pogroms against Jews between those times...still finds an audience?

Take off his miter, shave his head, and his presence and rhetoric would be right at home with the current neo-Nazi skinheads...

Blessings,

[Gustave]

Originally Posted By: Gustave

Here Bob, many people believe this.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q7TdkS2ydGI

To use the the phrase Mr. Nathanel used toward the end of the clip - Amazing, isn't it...that the same old fear-mongering lies leading to the slaughtering of Jews in the Spanish Inquisition, and in the Holocaust of Germany, and the many pogroms against Jews between those times...still finds an audience?

Take off his miter, shave his head, and his presence and rhetoric would be right at home with the current neo-Nazi skinheads...

Blessings,

He's Jewish Ted.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGTp1Q162Gw

[Ted Oplinger]

And the point he's Jewish means...?

He's still peddling the same stuff that has been circulated for a very, very long time, regardless of what ethnic origin he is from.

Blessings,

[Gibs]

There is an extreme controversey of the "Holocaust." I do not take sides on this matter as I find the truth cannot be ascertained. I've read and heard all differnt assessments and we will need to wait until the great judgement day to know just who, what, truth or lies of the this is.

You may come nearer to learning the truth from the True Messianic Jews than any others in this world. I've heard them some but I cannot make a judgement.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[o2bwise]

Anything that anyone DOES is a consequence of WHO HE IS.

The outward act is secondary to who someone is.

The seal of God is a holy character.

The mark of the beast is an altogether unrighteous character.

When the great polarization comes, that which divides will do so according to character.

Whatever outward acts the evil do, it will be because they are evil. Whatever outward acts the holy do, they do because they are holy.

Sure, holy folks will Sabbath-keep, discerning God's will.

But, that truth is secondary to something much bigger.

The remnant reflect the character of Christ while the lost, the character of Satan.

Blessings,

Tony

[o2bwise]

Quote:

There is an extreme controversey of the "Holocaust."

very true

[CoAspen]

Quote:

There is an extreme controversey of the "Holocaust." I do not take sides on this matter as I find the truth cannot be ascertained.

Actually, your post says exactly what side your are on!!!!!

The truth has been out there and still is......but it is so much easier to perform the ostrich stance when truth is distasteful to ones on biases! Such a point of view today is just so unbelievable that it is hard to comment about!

[Gibs]

CoAspen,

No, you are wrong, I do not take sides on this issue, I know too much about it and I am telling you now, the more you find out the more uncertain the truth of the matter becomes.

There is much worldly power at play here that people don't know the depths of. So I still say silence is golden, keep looking and searching, but we do not have enough time left in this old world to know the full truth.

God is bringing this evil world to a close and the movements of evil will speed up now.

Getting with the LORD is the all important thing from here on out!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[o2bwise]

Quote:

The truth has been out there and still is......but it is so much easier to perform the ostrich stance when truth is distasteful to ones on biases! Such a point of view today is just so unbelievable that it is hard to comment about!

Serious digression, but there WERE holocausts.

Holocausts against Russians (~40 million), Ukrainians (the holodomor - ~10 million) and against Germans (unsure, but at least 2 million) and the perpetrators were the very people who made up what we have been force-fed was "the holocaust."

Part of the religion of "the beast."

[Ted Oplinger]

Whatever "controversy" people may have with the Holocaust by the Nazis, it cannot escape the documented horrors both the Russians and the Allies found when they liberated, nor can the documented policies of the Nazi government simply be pushed aside.

The extermination of 6 million Jews a myth? As if Auschwitz, Sobibor, Treblinka (and the others) just a fairy tale? Sorry - I will believe such. The Nazis kept VERY well-documented records of what they did to the Jew - as well as to every other kind of person they deemed "inferior" (they considered Russians as no better than Gypsies).

The Jews are not the "Boy Scouts" of the nations, but they have been just as much victims of "ethnic cleansing" attempts as other people groups around the world.

The animosity of Christians toward the Jew in history is indeed a noted historical fact; that Christendom continues to bring up the Jew whenever Bible truth is discussed (like, for instance, the Sabbath and diet), is a testimonial relic to that fact.

That animosity runs from the time of the Roman Empire, when Jews sold out Christians to escape their own consequences for rebelling against Rome so often.

Since the time, Jews have shunned Christians as abhorrent, and Christians have viewed Jews as Christ-killers, traitors, and Zionist supremacists.

And the wheels on the bus go around and around....

Blessings,

[o2bwise]

Quote:

nor can the documented policies of the Nazi government simply be pushed aside.

And what "documented policies" might these be?

Quote:

http://www.ihr.org/jhr/v18/v18n1p15_Faurisson.html

Raul Hilberg, the most prestigious of the authors who defend the thesis of the physical extermination of Jews by the Germans during the Second World War, began his investigation of this subject in 1948.

In 1961, after more than a dozen years' labor, he published The Destruction of the European Jews (Chicago: Quadrangle Books). In this work, he presents "the destruction of the European Jews" as a vast undertaking personally supervised by Hitler who, he says, gave two orders to this effect. Then, he continues, various German administrative agencies, especially in the police and the military, acted in conformity with these orders, duly coordinating their efforts to prepare, organize, control and carry out this vast criminal enterprise.

In 1976 appeared The Hoax of the Twentieth Century, a work by the most prestigious of revisionist authors, Arthur R. Butz, who teaches at Northwestern University near Chicago. He shows that the alleged extermination of the Jews constitutes "the hoax of the twentieth century."

In 1978-1979, I published two articles in the prominent Paris daily Le Monde demonstrating that the alleged Nazi gas chambers could not have existed, and this essentially for physical and chemical reasons.Note 1 These articles caused something of a stir. Two well-known French intellectuals, Raymond Aron and François Furet, announced that an international colloquium of experts would be held to establish before the world that the extermination of Jews and the Nazi gas chambers really existed. Among the experts who figured in this was Raul Hilberg.

Just before the start of the colloquium, a lengthy interview with Hilberg appeared in the influential French magazine Le Nouvel Observateur, in which the German-born Jewish historian expressed some astounding ideas.Note 2 Regarding the destruction of the European Jews and the Nazi gas chambers, he basically said that no documents exist that really prove these things, but rather only some testimonies that "accord somewhat."

While Hilberg of course holds to his basic extermination thesis, this explanation is radically different from the one he had previously given. It is obvious that revisionism is responsible for this change. Hilberg more or less conceded this, even if only indirectly. Specifically, he declared:Note 3

I will say that, in a certain way, Faurisson and others, without wanting to, did us a favor. They raised questions which had the effect of engaging historians in new research. They have obliged us to once again collect information, to re-examine documents and to go further into the comprehension of what has taken place.

The international colloquium took place as scheduled at the Sorbonne from June 29 to July 2, 1982, but behind closed doors. Then, an account of its discussions and conclusions was given at a press conference. But, to the surprise of everyone present, only Raymond Aron and François Furet appeared at the press conference, declaring, on the one hand, that "despite the most scholarly research," no one had been able to find any order by Hitler for the extermination of the Jews, and, on the other, that pursuing the revisionists in court was like conducting a witch-hunt. Not one word was said about gas chambers.

Seven months later Hilberg summarized his new thesis before an audience of nearly 2,700 at Avery Fischer Hall in New York City: the entire German policy for the physical destruction of the Jews was to be explained by mind reading! No document attesting to this criminal policy could be found, because no such document existed. For several years, the entire German bureaucratic machinery operated through a kind of telepathy. As Hilberg put it:Note 4

But what began in 1941 was a process of destruction not planned in advance, not organized centrally by any agency. There was no blueprint and there was no budget for destructive measures. They [these measures] were taken step by step, one step at a time. Thus came about not so much a plan being carried out, but an incredible meeting of minds, a consensus -- mind reading by a far-flung bureaucracy.

Let us note again those final words: "an incredible meeting of minds, a consensus -- mind reading by a far-flung bureaucracy."Note 5

Two years later, Hilberg confirmed those words and this explanation during the first "Holocaust trial" of Ernst Zündel in Toronto. He did this under oath during his cross-examination by Zündel's lawyer, Douglas Christie, whom I was assisting.Note 6

That same year (1985) the "revised and definitive" edition of his book appeared. In it, the University of Vermont professor did not use the expression "consensus" or "mind reading." And yet he wrote:Note 7

In the final analysis, the destruction of the Jews was not so much a product of laws and commands as it was a matter of spirit, of shared comprehension, of consonance and synchronization.

I know you did so unintentiinally, but you bore false witness with your statement.

There is not one iota of a shred of Nazi documentation of any plan to exterminate any people, including the Jews. None.

Which is why Hilberg (after being "corrected") now alleges the alleged holocaust was coordinated via a collective telepathy.

Tony

[Ted Oplinger]

"Collective telepathy"?

Many pardons...that is just too off-the-wall to summarily sweep away and bury the horrors of that war.

While in high school and in college, I was very much a history buff of WWII - in particular, the European Theater and its aftermath. There were too many newsreels, too many soldier's (allied and German) accounts, and too many tattooed camp survivors - in permanently emaciated conditions - to deny such ethnic policies existed.

Every pogrom in history against the Jew was just made up? Jewish Zionist conspiracists are behind the mark of the beast? Silly me..I simply thought the mark was to be set up by the image of the Sea Beast, in turn made by the Earth Beast, according to Revelation 13. Who knew?

I do know there were many vested interests in this world who want the Nazi Holocaust to "go away". Part of those interests involve the use of the medical knowledge gained on the human body through the horrific methods used in these camps - research still in use today.

"False witness"? Maybe because it disagrees with your opinion. Do be careful how you use those words.

In this world where up is now down, left is now right, evil is now good, and the truth is now a lie...I will stick with what I have on the matter, regardless if it is "false" to contemporary interests and theories.

As always, Tony, we can agree to disagree.

Blessings,

[CoAspen]

I can't agree to disagree.....those that disbelieve are simply self blinded to all of the documentation that is available and do not want to believe! The only people that I have heard of who still cling to that version of history have self-labeled themselves. Such talk and posting belongs in an other place!

[phkrause]

Quote:

There is an extreme controversey of the "Holocaust." I do not take sides on this matter as I find the truth cannot be ascertained.

Actually, your post says exactly what side your are on!!!!!

The truth has been out there and still is......but it is so much easier to perform the ostrich stance when truth is distasteful to ones on biases! Such a point of view today is just so unbelievable that it is hard to comment about!

Exactly CoAspen.

[phkrause]

I can't agree to disagree.....those that disbelieve are simply self blinded to all of the documentation that is available and do not want to believe! The only people that I have heard of who still cling to that version of history have self-labeled themselves. Such talk and posting belongs in an other place!

Again CoAspen great post. You believe it happen or you don't. There's no I'm not sure if it happened or not.

[joeb]

"Collective telepathy"?

Many pardons...that is just too off-the-wall to summarily sweep away and bury the horrors of that war.

While in high school and in college, I was very much a history buff of WWII - in particular, the European Theater and its aftermath. There were too many newsreels, too many soldier's (allied and German) accounts, and too many tattooed camp survivors - in permanently emaciated conditions - to deny such ethnic policies existed.

Every pogrom in history against the Jew was just made up? Jewish Zionist conspiracists are behind the mark of the beast? Silly me..I simply thought the mark was to be set up by the image of the Sea Beast, in turn made by the Earth Beast, according to Revelation 13. Who knew?

I do know there were many vested interests in this world who want the Nazi Holocaust to "go away". Part of those interests involve the use of the medical knowledge gained on the human body through the horrific methods used in these camps - research still in use today.

"False witness"? Maybe because it disagrees with your opinion. Do be careful how you use those words.

In this world where up is now down, left is now right, evil is now good, and the truth is now a lie...I will stick with what I have on the matter, regardless if it is "false" to contemporary interests and theories.

As always, Tony, we can agree to disagree.

Blessings,

When you know people who saw those camps you know it was real, even without the mountains of incontrovertible evidence that exists. Like you I'm a WWII history buff and could not deny such an outrage upon humanity took place even if I wanted to. My conscience wouldn't allow it.

[Gibs]

Well it happened, yes to more than one group and a great cover up of the true facts as to who one particular group actually is, not as they say but actually are.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[o2bwise]

Ted,

Quote:

Ted:

Do be careful how you use those words.

I find your writing to often be inappropriate, including exercising the province that is God's alone.

[Ted Oplinger]

Ted,

Quote:

Ted:

Do be careful how you use those words.

I find your writing to often be inappropriate, including exercising the province that is God's alone.

[Gibs]

Well what is the mark of the beast and for non SDA's. Well it will be the same for any who take it! Will some SDA's? Yes I suppose some will fall for it and take up the false doctrine that Jesus is our Sabbath rest and not to esteem a day. They like this verse,

Ro 14:5 One man esteemeth one day above another: another esteemeth every day alike. Let every man be fully persuaded in his own mind.

Yes every day to a man is the same as far as he can tell, the point we need to grasp is Yahweh done something of this day!

Ex 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

Ah you see man cannot Bless and Hallow any thing especially a certain day as Yahweh only can!

He declares it "My Holy Day!"

Isa 58:13 If thou turn away thy foot from the sabbath, from doing thy pleasure on my holy day; and call the sabbath a delight, the holy of the LORD, honourable; and shalt honour him, not doing thine own ways, nor finding thine own pleasure, nor speaking thine own words:

You see men will try to get around it but to his own destruction.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Bird's Eye View]

Personally, I have no problem with anyone wanting to keep the Sabbath, but as for the the Mark of the Beast,....

What about all the devout Sabbath-keepers who would crucify Jesus all over again? Jews who hate Christ are keeping the Sabbath far better than most of us ever could.

So I still say it comes down to Ephesians, where it is the Holy Spirit that is the seal of God, so therefore the opposite of that would be expressing a loyalty to Satan. To acquire this "mark", all one has to do is deny Christ, and then one will be allowed to "buy and sell" and go on with life. Otherwise,..."Off with your head!"

"But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven." Matthew 10:33

[Gibs]

Bird's Eye View,

I believe it amounts to who has the right to rule and then what would be the mark of that right to rule.

That fourth Commandment does contain that sovereign right and mark I find.

Ex 20:8 Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy.

Ex 20:9 Six days shalt thou labour, and do all thy work:

Ex 20:10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

Ex 20:11 For in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, the sea, and all that in them is, and rested the seventh day: wherefore the LORD blessed the sabbath day, and hallowed it.

The Sovereign right is His because He made it all and all the Hosts.

It is His Sign, or Mark of His Right,

Ex 31:17 It is a "sign" between me and the children of Israel for ever: for in six days the LORD made heaven and earth, and on the seventh day he rested, and was refreshed.

Hebrew for sign,

owth oth

probably from 225 (in the sense of appearing); a signal (literally or figuratively), as a flag, beacon, monument, omen, prodigy, evidence, etc.:--mark, miracle, (en-)sign, token.

See Hebrew 225

In keeping the Holy Sabbath we are acknowlgeing His right and His Greatness and paying Homage to Him who only deserves our praise and worship. Not only for the material things but of the eternal of which only the faithful who Love Him above all as He first loved us and gave all that we might be redeemed!

Yes the Sabbath is truly His mark sign or seal and so gives one a good strong lead as to what the mark of Satan would be, the second beast of Rev 13:, this will be the false with no real right at all. The day of the usurper god of this world.

OK, we have it right here,

Re 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Re 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

And yes dear folks Satan is a man in the hands of God, read,

Eze 28:9 Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I am God? but thou shalt be a man, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth thee.

Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

Eze 28:14 Thou art the anointed cherub that covereth; and I have set thee so: thou wast upon the holy mountain of God; thou hast walked up and down in the midst of the stones of fire.

Eze 28:15 Thou wast perfect in thy ways from the day that thou wast created, till iniquity was found in thee.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Ted Oplinger]

Personally, I have no problem with anyone wanting to keep the Sabbath, but as for the the Mark of the Beast,....

What about all the devout Sabbath-keepers who would crucify Jesus all over again? Jews who hate Christ are keeping the Sabbath far better than most of us ever could.

So I still say it comes down to Ephesians, where it is the Holy Spirit that is the seal of God, so therefore the opposite of that would be expressing a loyalty to Satan. To acquire this "mark", all one has to do is deny Christ, and then one will be allowed to "buy and sell" and go on with life. Otherwise,..."Off with your head!"

"But whosoever shall deny me before men, him will I also deny before my Father which is in heaven." Matthew 10:33

A mere intellectual assent to the truth of the Sabbath will not vaccinate a person against receiving the Mark of the Beast.

Not only does the Sabbath Commandment contain the seal of God, it stipulates one must be born again (this is noted in the first and last phrases of the 4th Commandment).

Without this being created anew, one cannot accept the Sabbath as a sign from God He is the One sanctifying you (Exodus 31:13; Ezekiel 20:12).

The final conflict will be between those who will be sanctified by God's grace on one side, and the other side will be those who refuse God's grace so as to be sanctified - they would rather sanctify themselves.

Keeping the Sabbath holy by the sanctifying grace of God, versus trying to keep holy and sanctify a day God has not sanctified - or, worse, to do as the Pharisees did: try to keep Sabbath outside the sanctifying grace of God.

The Mark of the Beast will necessarily include this rejection of God's grace through His word.

Blessings,

[Bird's Eye View]

Well, of course I'm answering this as a "non-SDA", according to the question that is the topic of this thread.

John 3:16

"For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life."

To me, the bottom line appears to come down to faith in Christ more than anything else, and we know that non-Christians do already keep the Sabbath, so to me, it can obviously mean different things to different people.

Either Christ is the line in the sand or it is the Sabbath day.

Most of the time this becomes a circular argument to mean "if you love Christ you will keep the Sabbath", but how can that be if people who despise Christ also keep the Sabbath?

So, coming from a non-denominational viewpoint, it just doesn't make sense where "the mark of the beast" is concerned.