Letter to Doug Bachelor

[ClubV12]

It is imperative Skyblue that we understand your true position within the Church because you have said that you ARE a member of the Church. People have a right to know if what you say is true, half true, kind of true or is in fact the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth.

"The organization of the churchat Jerusalem was to serve as a model for the organization of churches in every other place where messengers of truth should win converts to the gospel."

Acts of the Apostles pg 91

Gods Church on earth is organized, structured, with appointed leadership. This is the LAST organized Church setup by Him, comissioned by Him that will exist. There will be no other, this Church will endure to the end of time. It will APPEAR as about to fall, but it does not fall. Those who have knowingly, willfully, removed or have been removed who in turn "fight against" this Church are fighting against the throne of God.

[ClubV12]

"Much light was given to us in reference to the organization of churches, and yet we had a hard battle to fight in perfecting organization; but the victory was gained at last, and now shall the church be disorganized because of indifference, formality, and pride?"

Christian Education pg 135

I am not blind, I see the faults of the Church today, more clearly than most in fact. Yet my resolve to support this Church in every way increases with every view of it's "appearing as about to fall". This is MY Church, these are MY people, I will not abandon this ship and I will defend it even in it's darkest hour of apostasy. As Daniel did, so will I, pray for my sins and the sins of my people.

[skyblue888]

The next passage from the Desire of Ages is on page 826:

"In the commission to His disciples, Christ not only outlined their work, but gave them their message: Teach the people, He said, 'to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you.' The disciples were to teach what Christ had taught. That which He had spoken, not only in person, but through all the prophets and teachers of the Old Testament is here included. Human teaching is shut out. There is no place for tradition, for men's theories and conclusions, OR FOR CHURCH LEGISLATION. No laws ordained by ecclesiastical authority are included in the commission. None of these are Christ's servants to teach. 'The law and the prophets,' with the record of His own words and deeds, are the treasure committed to the disciples to be given to the world. Christ's name is their watchword, their badge of distinction, their bond of union, the authority for their course of action, and the source of their success. Nothing that does not bear His superscription is to be recognized in His kingdom."

We often quote these words of Isaiah, "To the law and to the Testimony." To the law and the prophets. In the teaching that Christ commissioned us to teach there is no place for tradition, there is no place for men's theories and conclusions, NO PLACE FOR ANY CHURCH LEGISLATION, no place for any "laws ordained by ecclesiastical authority." "None of these are Christ's servants to teach."

Then what is the good, and what is the use, of our "church legistation," of constitutions, laws, resolutions, and or all of our "laws ordained by ecclesiastical authority?" "None of these are Christ's servants to teach."

sky

[ClubV12]

"...we had a hard battle to fight in perfecting organization; but the victory was gained at last, and now shall the church be disorganized because of indifference, formality, and pride?" Christian Education pg 135

In those early days when the Church was being established there was strong opposition to the organized Church holding title to the land and buildings used by the Church. Some said they should be lawfully held by an individual, or perhaps members of a particular congregration. Such were some of the issues Ellen White and the pioneers had to deal with. The battle was hard fought to find the balance between disorganization (no laws of any kind) and organization. Reasonable Church law to protect the assetts and monies of the Church from unscupulous persons might abuse their power and steal or remove in some way those assetts. Even rob the Church of it's assetts! This is in harmony with good basic principles of stewardship.

[skyblue888]

Yet even that is not all, from our own standard publications. Here is Special Testimony, Series B. No.10, (1909) "Jehovah is our King." (Testimonies to Ministers, p.481)

This message says these words:

"God declares, 'I will be glorified in My people;' but the self-confident management of men has resulted in putting God aside and accepting the devisings of men."

Can you think of anything more antagonistic to the "organized work" than that? Is that Testimony antagonistic to the organized work? Or is it antagonistic to the organized work to teach from the Bible that which will effectually prevent that which this Testimony says "has resulted," that is, "putting God aside, and accepting the devisings of men"?

When God has been put aside by men in the church, and the devisings of men are accepted instead, then we should know what that means.

The Kingship of Jehovah, and that each one shall find God to be his King, in the Kingdom of God, instead of any kingdom of men in the place of God--this is only what we should be preaching everywhere.

Further this says:

"For years there has been a growing tendency for men placed in positions of responsibility to lord it over God's heritage, thus removing from Church-members their keen sense of the need of divine instruction and an appreciation of the privilege of counsel with God regarding this duty. This order of things must be changed. There must be a reform." Testimonies to Ministers,477-478.

That this order of things shall be changed, and there be a reform, is all that the Lord has ever asked for. And why is that antagonistic to the organized work?

sky

[ClubV12]

"An important address on the organization of churches was drawn up by a committee of nine--the ministers who attended the conference--and was written by J. H. Waggoner. It reviewed briefly the history of the church, particularly the holding of "general conferences" here and there with no attempt at equalized representation or to keep minutes of decisions reached. It called for the organization of churches dealt with, for "purity of the membership," and for members to carry with them proper papers when moving to a new location. It specified that there must be papers certifying to the qualifications of those who ministered."

The Early Years pg 448

The early Church did indeed hold a General Conference. Which was attended by representatives from all around the world and leaders of the early Church. At the Conference it was determined that certain rules and laws (organization) needed to be instituted because of the rapidly increasing size of the world Church. For the same reason, our pioneers also met and established certain rules and laws so that order would be maintained.

These rules were voted on and in letter form were delivered to each of the early Churches with the expectation they would observe these rules. So as to be in harmony with each other and with the world leadership.

Some opposed the new rules, others embraced them, such has been the case with man for thousands of years. Different people have different views. Never the less, as enfeebled and defective as the Church may be today, it remains the single object of His supreme affection.

[skyblue888]

Further I read:

"In my earlier experiences in the message, I was called to meet this evil. During my labors in Europe and Australia, and more recently at the San Jose Meeting in 1905, I had to bear my Testimony of warning against it, because souls were being led to look to man for wisdom instead of to God who is our wisdom, our sanctification, and our righteousness. And now (1907) the same message has again been given me, more definite and decisive, because there has been a deeper offense to the Spirit of God." T.M.478.

And I read:

"I write thus fully because I have been shown that ministers and teachers are tempted more and more to trust in finite men for wisdom, and to make flesh their arm. To Conference Presidents and men in responsible places, I bear this message: Break the bands and fetters that have been placed upon God's people. To you the word is spoken: 'Break every yoke.' Unless you cease the work of making men amenable to men, unless you become humble in heart, and yourselves learn the way of the Lord as little children, the Lord will divorce you from His work."

Is it true that "bands and fetters" "have been placed upon God's people"?

We profess to believe that this is instruction from God. Is that antagonistic to the organized work? We are to teach the people how to be free from all such things as bands and fetters and yokes. Is that antagonistic to the organized work? If so, how can we help it?

sky

[ClubV12]

"I testify to my brethren and sisters that the church of Christ, enfeebled and defective as it may be, is the only object on earth on which He bestows His supreme regard."

Ellen G. White Biography, Volume 4; The Australian Years pg 63

If there is a rule or law that the body of believers is opposed to, there are methods and means to address these issues and if necessary to rectify the situation. But if "freedom" means no rules, no laws, no leadership, it's every man for himself, it's anarchy! There MUST be a balance maintained between oppression and anarchy.

Now some folks, demand their freedom, from the Church, from society, from organizations, from the law and will fight for their right to do whatever they want. Thats fundamentally WHY we have "off shoots" and disgruntled members and revolutions in the streets opposing Government. Let us not follow the example of the world, but find harmony within the Church on those issues we disagree with.

[BobRyan]

Since these solemn warnings were sent to the church over a century ago no decided movement has been made to bring in a different order of things. Solemn, isn't it? For those who are interested, please read the dream Mrs. White had about this. It is found in Testimonies, Vol.1, p.578. Hope this helped.

So brother Bachelor, as you can see for yourself, it is not difficult to understand why the loud cry of the third angel has been so long delayed! What say you?

Would appreciate your feedback.

sky

You missive lacks sufficient context to be useful.

Is there "somebody doing something wrong" in the world? In the Church -- "yes - of course".

Ellen White had very specific individuals to contend with and very specific disputes to resolve. And on a personal level - each of us can take the warnings that were generated in such cases as good guidelines for our own case. Just like 1Cor 10 tells us to learn from the lesson of Israel and how they failed.

But that is a far cry from being able to hammer the current church with a specific problem as if all Administrators are in that specific error - sight unseen.

Pastor Doug has no doubt run into some heavy handed administrators that you have not come across. But that is not the same thing as having a mandate to accuse all administrators of the same deeds.

Thus you are left with a "warning in general" and not a warning "in specific detail".

in Christ,

Bob

[skyblue888]

Originally Posted By: skyblue888

Since these solemn warnings were sent to the church over a century ago no decided movement has been made to bring in a different order of things. Solemn, isn't it? For those who are interested, please read the dream Mrs. White had about this. It is found in Testimonies, Vol.1, p.578. Hope this helped.

So brother Bachelor, as you can see for yourself, it is not difficult to understand why the loud cry of the third angel has been so long delayed! What say you?

Would appreciate your feedback.

sky

You missive lacks sufficient context to be useful.

Is there "somebody doing something wrong" in the world? In the Church -- "yes - of course".

Ellen White had very specific individuals to contend with and very specific disputes to resolve. And on a personal level - each of us can take the warnings that were generated in such cases as good guidelines for our own case. Just like 1Cor 10 tells us to learn from the lesson of Israel and how they failed.

But that is a far cry from being able to hammer the current church with a specific problem as if all Administrators are in that specific error - sight unseen.

Pastor Doug has no doubt run into some heavy handed administrators that you have not come across. But that is not the same thing as having a mandate to accuse all administrators of the same deeds.

Thus you are left with a "warning in general" and not a warning "in specific detail".

in Christ,

Bob

Bob, the warnings address both individuals (ministers and people, and church administrators especially of General Conference standing) and Church Order or Organization. The leaders of the church refused to implement Gospel Order by putting God (Christ) aside and accepting the devisings of men. Not only do we know that the Lord said that but we also know when and how this happened. It is all recorded in the 1901 and 1903 General Conference Bulletins. And the Lord said that there would be no material change until a decided movement was made to bring in a different order of things. That has not happened and we are still here wandering in this wilderness of sin and sorrow and the loud cry continues to be delayed and by the same token the return of Jesus.

sky

[ClubV12]

I believe there was substantial change and reorganization around 1910. In 1901 the problem was basically a few men, or even one, calling the shots for all the Churches in a micro management style. The General Conference sessions, around that time frame, were also not properly represented by the world wide church. As such, they were not the highest authority on earth anymore than Daniel was a man after Gods own heart when he was in the very act of sin. The Father reproves those whom He loves, the Church is no different in that respect. Daniel was a man after Gods own heart because he ACCEPTED the Fathers reproof as an excelent oil, with a thankful heart. He recognized and sought forgiveness for his sin AND accepted the consequences that would follow as a result. With a thankful heart.

That same forgiveness and tender love is still available, Sky, for all who will come to Him.

As Sister White noted:

The General Conference, when in session AND with representatives from around the world is the highest authority on earth. What is bound on earth is bound in heaven. That remains true today.

Ted Wilson has no power of himself to order this or that as it concerns Church doctrine and law. That is and has been established by a properly represented General Conference, in session. The attitude of micro management, prevalent in the early 1900's, has also been addressed. Personally, I would like to see this principle of a bit more freedom at the local level applied to an even greater degree. But I will honor the G.C.'s recommendations on where that line is drawn. I have full faith and confidence that the Father is in control in spite of how things may appear to some, or even to myself!

It is true that if the Church needs correction, reproach, reproof, the Father will allow error to come into the Church and thus "punish sin with sin". As He did with Israel for thousands of years. THOUSANDS OF YEARS, He is long suffering and merciful even in His judgments.

It is ludicrous to assume that in the space of a few decades He has already closed probation for the Church and abandoned it as His chosen people. It's more than ludicrous, it's an insult to the long suffering character and tender love of the Father toward His chosen people.

[Gregory Matthews]

Sky, your sure raise a lot of questions that are not related to my post.

My first point was this: The local congregation, right of wrong, can elect whomever they chose to an office, to include non-members.

Quote:

Gregory, do you think the Seventh-day Adventist Churches probation has closed? That this Church is no longer the remnant Church, raised up by Him to deliver the three angels message? Do you feel the responsibility for that ministry has been removed from this Church and given to another group of believers?

My answer is a solid "NO" to all of your questions above.

Quote:

If so, would you work to spread that news to any and all that remain in the Church to "come out" in some way? By removal of their membership, starting their home church, prostelize existing members to your doctrinal beliefs, theology and interpretation of Ellen White and the bible. Stop paying tithe, etc. There are many ways to discourage members of an organization to cease their support for that organization.

My response remains the same. I would do none of the above.

Quote:

But more to the point of your post: IF you did feel this way or knew of someone that was actively engaged in this type of "ministry" (I use the term very loosely here), would you elect them or approve of them being elected to office in the Church? Would you elect them if they donated enough money to the Church (buy an office or buy an indulgence)?

I would not approve of electing them to office.

The Presbyterian pstor did not purchase influence in the church. He made a personal loan of $10,000 from his personal money in a time of crisis for that SDA Congregation. He made it on the basis of an informal verbal commitment to pay it back. He made it under the condition that no one know about it as he did not want the news that he had done so to reach his congregation at a time when they were in a fund raising drive to expand their building.

NOTE: I knew him personally and have personal knowledge of the facts.

In a time of crisis, God can lead non-members to provide support to the people of God.

AS to a Methodist leading in the fund-raising for the congregation, she was not opposed to the SDA beliefs and practices. She was not in opposition. She was in church almost every Sabbath. I knew her personally.

NOTE: I was not the pastor of the congregation when all of what I have stated took place.

[Gibs]

Does not each member of a church not have a right to stand up and let it be known of what he considers false or apostasy coming in. Should he not have a voice?

When he can show it disagrees with the Word he must be heard or the Highest will mete out judgement on the unjust one day and righteouseness will be had.

The "square" shooting will eventually be done! We can depend on it!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[OzarkWoman]

Well now that we've cleared up your status within the Church, Skyblue, we may address the issues you bring up with full knowledge that you oppose the Seventh-day Adventist Church and believe it's probation has closed. That it is no longer the remnant Church and has been rejected by the Father as His representative Church on earth.

Members of this forum also should be advised that your definition of what constitutes the Church opposes the definition of what constitutes the Church by Ellen White.

Let us review her definition of the Church as she applies it to the Seventh-day Adventist Church.

"Acts of the Apostles".

Chapter one, paragraph one.

"The church is God's appointed agency for the salvation of men. It was organized for service, and its mission is to carry the gospel to the world. From the beginning it has been God's plan that through His church shall be reflected to the world His fullness and His sufficiency."

Jesus was also a member of Gods chosen people, His divinely appointed agency to carry the gospel to the whole world. That organized body of believers known as the Jewish Nation. He wasn't just a member in name, but a member in good standing! He preached in the synagogue, read from the scriptures to the congregration on the Sabbath day, have every right and privilege granted to any Jewish male in good standing with the Church of His time. In His time, salvation could only be found through His Church, which He not only recognized, it's what He preached!

THE church and not any certain denomination. Besides, EGW is not God or jesus. I will stick with the Bible and get my in fo from it and not EGW.

[ClubV12]

I spent a few years at University of Missouri, Rolla, OzarkWoman. Interesting place Missouri, I met some real fine people there. I wish you the very best. I heard a rumor you bake some pretty good bread. If not this side of the Kingdom, perhaps the next, we can break bread together. I'd like that.

[Gregory Matthews]

Quote:

EGW is not God or jesus.

True.

It is also true that EGW is not what many people make her out to be.

[Woody]

Quote:

EGW is not God or jesus.

True.

It is also true that EGW is not what many people make her out to be.

[Live4Him]

I used to hate Ellen Whites writings. Used to call her egg white among other derogatory things. Stemming in large part from my dads always quoting her then living a different life. When I came to the Lord I went down the same path sky seems to be traveling. Thankfully God led me to actually study what sister White actually says about calling the church Babylon. Sky there is no way you can take from Ellen Whites writings that she condones what you are teaching. The very fact that you were dishonest about your status with the church indicates which road you travel according the the sop. Yet I am supposed to follow you as a teacher? The Bible has very grave statements about those who are dishonest. Anyway as I studied this out I started seeing just how true the SOP is. Her writings are spot on with what the Bible says and her every effort was to bring people to Jesus. In the last 10 years or so I am seeing things coming to pass that I heard talked about in the SOP when I was young and honestly it is mind blowing. Testimonies to the Church vol. 5 talks about every principle of our constitution will be repudiated at the end of time. It seems that we as a church are blind to it but since 9/11 we have virtually no rights left from our constitution. 20 years ago if you would have told me this would be so I would have said you were crazy. But it has happened. I do agree that the Bible is the first Source however I cannot throw out or trample on the importance of the Spirit of Prophecy which is a Biblical teaching in and of itself. It really makes me sad to see people so flippantly taunt something that is so dedicated to bringing people to Christ. I love and stand firmly by the SOP, books letters, articles and all. There were a few times in my struggling years when her writings truly gave me hope and kept me from giving up. I have seen a lot of people in my life flippantly say they don't need the sop they use the Bible. I would ask these people, how well do you know your Bible? Can you give an answer for your faith? Or is this an out to reject the treasure that God has given us? As for me I am not ashamed of this gem we have.

[Gregory Matthews]

Ellen whit was much more reasonable that some people make her out to be.

[debbym]

Quote:

Our entire congregation was summarily dismissed from the SDA organization; yet I amintain my personal membership in the Conference church. I really don't care a rat's pitoot whether or not that makes me a "member in good standing" in the SDA denomination. I care about whether or not I am a "member in good standing" in the Kingdom of God. There is not necessarily a correlation between the two.

there must be a story here JoeMo.

I had no idea your whole congregation was dismissed from the sda conference.

did you have to go find a new building? and what do you call yourselves now?

do you have a website for your church?

do many members of your church retain their sda membership and membership in your church?

this is not common JoeMo.

is your whole church following the Charismatic tradition?

it is a tough Job for pastors, and conference presidents to maintain a clear position on what is truth and what is not, this is a source of endless controversies.

[BobRyan]

Bob, the warnings address both individuals (ministers and people, and church administrators especially of General Conference standing) and Church Order or Organization.

[phkrause]

Ellen whit was much more reasonable that some people make her out to be.

Exactly Greg

[Gibs]

There is some statements of EGW that SDA's that want to uphold the church as it is today in esteem don't like.

Here is one,

God has a church. It is not the great cathedral, neither is it the national establishment, neither is it the various denominations; it is the people who love God and keep His commandments. "Where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them" (Matthew 18:20). Where Christ is even among the humble few, this is Christ's church, for the presence of the High and Holy One who inhabiteth eternity can alone constitute a church. {UL 315.5}

Where two or three are present who love and obey the commandments of God, Jesus there presides, let it be in the desolate place of the earth, in the wilderness, in the city enclosed in prison walls. The glory of God has penetrated the prison walls, flooding with glorious beams of heavenly light the darkest dungeon. His saints may suffer, but their sufferings will, like the apostles of old, spread their faith and win souls to Christ and glorify His holy name. The bitterest opposition expressed by those who hate God's great moral standard of righteousness should not and will not shake the steadfast soul who trusts fully in God. . . . {UL 315.6}

They that will be doers of the word are building securely, and the tempest and storm of persecution will not shake their foundation, because their souls are rooted to the eternal Rock.--Letter 108, Oct. 28, 1886, to her older sister and her husband who had not accepted the Sabbath truth. {UL 315.7}

Can one rightly dispute that statement?

Who are you telling that they are not in His Church? Any that want to be can and what name would you give them?

I love to be in fellowship with some true believers where the Presence of the High and Holy One is in the midst!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[JoeMo]

Quote:

Gods Church on earth is organized, structured, with appointed leadership.

Not that I am all that familiar with the procedures at the top of that SDA church, but you talk about "appointed leadership"? When I think "appointed",I'm thinking "appointed by God" Like God appointed Peter as the leader of the apostles. OT prophets were appointed/anointed by God. To the best of my knowledge, the leaders in the SDA church are elected by other men - not appointed by God. Please see another thread here about "corrupt SDA leaders". From the tone of most of your posts, you would LOVE it!. Then tell me that some of these leaders were appointed by God.

[JoeMo]

Quote:

Never the less, as enfeebled and defective as the Church may be today, it remains the single object of His supreme affection

The SINGLE object of His affection? So - you're saying that God/Jesus has no affection for any other peole but those in "good standing" with the SDA church? Funny, I read somewhere that "God so loves the world..."