Letter to Doug Bachelor

[Windsor]

The Roman Catholic Church could not possibly be the church Christ founded. Christ never went to Rome. There is not even any reliable evidence that Peter went to Rome. The Christian church was founded in Jerusalem. It would be centuries before the churches of the East were brought under the control of Rome and only then by relinquishing their own beliefs in favor of those of the bishop of Rome. One prominent example can be found in that the Sabbath was kept by the Jerusalem church after the death of all the apostles.

[LoneRanger]

So correct me if I'm not understanding you, Ted, Windsor, and ClubV12. Your saying Jesus Christ did not start the Christian church.

[joeb]

So correct me if I'm not understanding you, Ted, Windsor, and ClubV12. Your saying Jesus Christ did not start the Christian church.

I really don't understand how you're getting to your conclusion from what you're giving as your starting assumption. The train logic is extremely fuzzy to me.

[Ted Oplinger]

So correct me if I'm not understanding you, Ted, Windsor, and ClubV12. Your saying Jesus Christ did not start the Christian church.

You are definitely misunderstanding what each of us has said regarding the matter. None of us said that Christ did not start the church - that is putting words into our posts that aren't there. First red flag. At the risk of taking this thread even more off topic than it already is...

Christ Jesus took the 12 Apostles, minus Judas, plus Mattathias, and commissioned them from the city of Jerusalem to take the Gospel to every nation tribe, tongue, and people, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Spirit. - which is taken to be the very start of we call the Christian church.

That should immediately clear up your misconception, as well as the misconception that Christ started off from the city of Rome.

Christ never once named a Roman pontiff head of His Church. In fact, Christ never did name anyone (not even Peter) to be the visible head of the church, as He Himself is the head. Furthermore, Christ did not establish a headquarters for his church - not even in Jerusalem. He merely declared that from Jerusalem the Gospel is to go out unto all the world.

This worked for nearly 300 years, until the Council of Nicea produced a huge schism over the teachings of Arius.

During that whole time, the church of Rome was a non-player, being too close to Caesar's persecution to mount any kind of real ambition over other churches. The churches at Antioch, Smyrna, Alexandria, Ephesus, and Corinth held far more influence over the church at large than Rome could have ever hoped to at that point in time.

Where is it in this history do you get understand the Roman Catholic Church was established by Christ to be the preeminent church above all other churches, when in fact such a designation comes not from Christ, but by a decree from a Roman emperor over 500 years after the Gospel began to be spread from Jerusalem? History clearly shows the various churches did not just "morph" into a unified Roman Catholic church - and some of these churches did not go quietly in the night, either.

Your earlier statements to these conclusions were either not written well, else they reflect a substantial misunderstanding and/or inaccuracy with respect to both the account in Acts and the historical records of the early church after the Book of Acts leaves off.

Blessings,

[JoeMo]

Quote:

You are definitely misunderstanding what each of us has said regarding the matter.

I was gonna post something along this line; but no use being redundantly repetitive. It's amazing how people can twist (or misunderstand some things. I agree with what you have posted throughout this thread 100%

Blessings to you, Iron Deacon (and everyone else)!

[Windsor]

LoneRanger,

Christ had a message for seven churches in Revelation. Rome wasn't even important enough to get a mention and the book was written somewhere around 95 AD. The Roman Catholic church can't claim an unbroken chain from Peter anymore than the Seventh-day Adventist church.

[LoneRanger]

I see I was ganged-up on while I was gone.

First, I can't believe you guys think the RCC started in Rome, or that I think Jesus went to Rome. That's pathetic on several counts.

First, there is no such thing as a ROMAN Catholic Church. The Catholic Church has never refered to itself as "roman." The term roman as applied to the CC is a derogatory term that came into use in the 15th (ish) century by the Anglican church to differentiate between the two. It has entered the colloquial as a term for the CC, but it's not the name of the church. (Yea, I didn't know that either until I read it on Wiki.)

Second, I'm not sure where you get the idea that I think Jesus was in Rome. I can only assume that your trying to make me look bad. Don't worry, I've been called worse by better people.

So now I have to ask, Just where DID the Christian church start? (In your opinion, of course.)

[debbym]

Quote:

The Catholic Church has never refered to itself as "roman."

the father of my grandchildren was raised roman catholic in columbia, and he is very specific the the roman catholic is not exactly the same as the catholic church in the us.

i do not know why he was taught that.

and as the catholic church relates to each culture, i am sure it was culturally different for him.

quote from present Wiki

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholic_Church

"The Catholic Church, also known as the Roman Catholic Church, is the world's largest Christian church, with 1.2 billion members worldwide."

but the wiki answers website contradicts that and says

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_population_of_Catholics_in_the_world_today

"There are about 1.2 to 1.3 billion Catholics in the world as of 2011. It is the Catholic Church, not the Roman Catholic Church. "Roman" was a slang term first used in England after the protestant revolt to denote the Christian Church."

[LoneRanger]

the father of my grandchildren was raised roman catholic in columbia, and he is very specific the the roman catholic is not exactly the same as the catholic church in the us.

That's curious. Can you elaborate?

[LoneRanger]

"The Catholic Church, also known as the Roman Catholic Church, is the world's largest Christian church, with 1.2 billion members worldwide."

but the wiki answers website contradicts that and says

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_is_the_population_of_Catholics_in_the_world_today

"There are about 1.2 to 1.3 billion Catholics in the world as of 2011. It is the Catholic Church, not the Roman Catholic Church. "Roman" was a slang term first used in England after the protestant revolt to denote the Christian Church."

That's not really a contradiction, because an entity may be known by a name that is not really its name. Like the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter Day Saints are also known as Mormons, but I'm pretty sure "Mormon" is not an official name.

[debbym]

i do not know any more then this, we are not close, but it was made very clear, he regards himself roman catholic, and not just catholic.

sorry i cannot help you further.

[LifeHiscost]

Just in case I lose my place, just having come upon this thread, I'm putting this in to let you know what this Adventist in good standing, has found to allow me to maintain that reputation over the last 45-t0 50 years.

First I've found that reading the Holy Scriptures enables me to know that if I love my enemies, my friends, and all those in between as well as loving God supremely, I don't need the 28 fundamentals or the church manual to indicate whether I'm a Seventh Day Adventist in good standing.

If somehow someone should see differently before I leave this world, which could be an important issue if I read the text below correctly, I'll continue to love them with the same or more fervor (by the grace of God)that I now express.

"For God says, “At just the right time, I heard you. On the day of salvation, I helped you.” Indeed, the “right time” is now. Today is the day of salvation."

2 Corinthians 6:2 NLT

"I call upon the Lord, who is worthy to be praised, And I am saved from my enemies."Psalm 18:3 NASB

"Therefore judge nothing before the time, until the Lord comes, who will both bring to light the hidden things of darkness and reveal the counsels of the hearts. Then each one’s praise will come from God."1 Corinthians 4:5 NKJV

God cares!

[Ted Oplinger]

I see I was ganged-up on while I was gone.

First, I can't believe you guys think the RCC started in Rome, or that I think Jesus went to Rome. That's pathetic on several counts.

[Gibs]

I didn't see no explanation here yet what happened to to the Apostolic Christian Church.

Then if it kept on going what is it named today? I suppose some think the SDA church, is that correct?

I think most understand what Lone Ranger is saying but are being picky.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

Most understand but are being picky?

Hand goes up...

I haven't got a clue where LoneRanger is coming from, bless his heart, I just don't know. Being picky is trying to figure out what the difference between Roman Catholic and Catholic is. Essentially, one and the same for all intents and reasonable purposes. "A rose by any other name would smell the same."

What Seventh-day Adventist have in common with the apostalic Church is summed up in the name. Looking for the return of Christ, worship on the seventh day. The same could be said of Abraham and even Adam, both looking for the return of a Messiah and worshiping on the seventh day.

I can't make that link to the Protestant Reformation because by the time we get there Gods laws had been so polluted and hidden it was a time of considerable confusion. HOWEVER, there has ALWAYS, at every moment in earths history, been a group somewhere who kept the Sabbath and looked for Christ return. In other words, there have ALWAYS been Seventh-day Adventists even when they weren't known by that specific name. The name, as a description, fits anyone and everyone who has held these two beliefs dear.

[LoneRanger]

Most understand but are being picky?

Hand goes up...

I haven't got a clue where LoneRanger is coming from, bless his heart, I just don't know.

[LoneRanger]

That would be volume 7 of the Commentary.

[ClubV12]

OK, Vol 7 of the commentary, no problem, except, I have no idea where your going with this? God has always been the founder of His Church and Christ the head. That much is obvious...

Roman Catholicism, or just plain Catholics, whichever you prefer, are not, never have been, "Gods Church". Identity theft is their speciality.

[LoneRanger]

Stan, can we get a "head in the sand" smilie?