Letter to Doug Bachelor

[ClubV12]

Ted, you touched on my thread, "Visible or Invisible".

I'm sure you've heard the quote;

"God has a church. It is not the great cathedral, neither is it the national establishment, neither is it the various denominations; it is the people who love God and keep His commandments."

Manuscript Releases, Volume 17 pg 81

This is the invisible Church. It has existed since the time of Adam. It has not been given to us to know who is in this Church, or who will remain in it, faithful unto death. We know from biblical history some who were members. Adam, Abraham, Jesus, Paul and many others. Based on your comment, Ted, I would have to include some Sunday worshippers and perhaps more! All those who are living up to the light they have. We don't know who or where they may be found.

"God has a church upon the earth, who are His chosen people, who keep His commandments. He is leading, not stray offshoots, not one here and one there, but a people. The truth is a sanctifying power, but the church militant is not yet the church triumphant. . . ."

4BIO pg 81.3

This is the visible Church. It keeps His commandments. It is not composed of stray offshoots, one here or one there. It is a group, a chosen people, set aside, special. With a distinct message for the time that Church was in existence. Gods visible Church through the ages went by various names. Jewish Nation, Apostalic, Protestant. Today that Church is known as Seventh-day Adventists, His chosen people with a special message.

It is presumption, for any of us, to declare we know who comprises the invisible Church and that we are a part of it. When the Jewish Nation was Gods visible Church on earth, nations and peoples had to acknowledge that. They had to join with that special group, and many non-Jews did exactly that! Salvation was of the Jews, said Jesus. Now I'm sorry if that offends someone. It has through the ages offended many and they have rejected Gods visible Church.

When this knowledge, this truth is presented to you, that is the choice you will have to make. To come out, to join with Gods remnant people. In the time of Moses, to leave the camp was certain death. Lack of food, water, the prey of wild beasts and bandits. Please don't leave the camp, it's dangerous out there. Roaring lions and all manner of evil will consider you they're lawful prey.

[Gibs]

To not speak up against incoming errors is being a party and team player with it.

Being one with emerging church and all else that has come in and no voices am I hearing from within the ranks anymore tells me something.

Can the ship be righted? Go and give it your best try! But if you are agreeing to all of it you can't right it for sure.

The great shaking I find is over as none within are standing up against the incoming errors!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

Ellen White was certainly not afraid to speak up! But here the significant difference Gibs, she never left the ship while doing so!

Once you leave, you've got no voice, no credibility, just another guy standing outside the door hurling black balls at those inside. Nothing special, theres dozens like yourself with some different interpretation, some new idea, some twist on doctrine. Every wind a blowin'. Why are you anymore or less special than the next guy who left the Church and now condems it?

Sometimes I wonder what the obsession even is for those who have left the Church and hang around? Why don't they move on? Do they actually LOVE the Church or what? It is a bit of a mystery, sincerely it is...

No one knows when the shaking will be over, it has hardly begun at this point. Effectively, it will be the Sunday law. As for when probation is over, not even Lucifer knows that.

[Gibs]

I for one see, if today EGW were here she would make a strong stand against all that has come in and spelled kosher.

The shaking that is coming now is to shake out the true ones out of all the sructures of men.

Not many will be keeping Sabbath when the decree comes down and far fewer afterwards.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

I know Gibs, your the only one standing up against the evil of the Church. THEE single man through out all the land holding the banner high. All is lost, all is doom, we are undone because there is no voice to speak of these things,,, save for Gibs. The ship will surely go down without him.

Feeling pretty good about your mission? Your earnest zeal means nothing without love. Though you die a martyrs death in defense of the TRUTH, it's only suicide without love, plain and simple. There will be no reward for such. May I suggest you re-read your thread on humility? You might want to do a study on faith while your at it.

The Lord had seven thousand who had not bowed the knee to Baal, and interestingly enough, they were also members of His Church...

[Ted Oplinger]

To not speak up against incoming errors is being a party and team player with it.

Being one with emerging church and all else that has come in and no voices am I hearing from within the ranks anymore tells me something.

Can the ship be righted? Go and give it your best try! But if you are agreeing to all of it you can't right it for sure.

The great shaking I find is over as none within are standing up against the incoming errors!

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Oh, Gibs, I am chuckling pretty good now.

Since when is working within tantamount to not speaking up on incoming errors???

Since when is staying by my Lord's side, telling me where in the ship to go to help the weary and weakened, doing my work, and having confidence in Christ Jesus to guide us safely to the other side - being party to and a team player with errors?

Since when did you obtain an extensive copy of my work here, down in my neck of the woods in Texas?

You speak whereof you have absolutely zero knowledge, Gibs.

I don't need try righting the ship, Gibs. Christ, our Captain, keeps the ship through every stormy blast.

My job is to bail water where He asks me to, plug a leak where He sees one I can plug, help the weary and waterlogged where He asks.

There's even a time or two where He has tied a life line to me, and commanded me to dive into the storm-tossed sea to rescue one who was washed overboard - or even worse, thrown overboard by another crewman. I have had to trust Him to reel us BOTH in while keeping my brother focused on the One reeling us in to safety.

If you find all that being party to errors, well, so be it. Sure beats being found drunk and beating His fellow servants...

Besides, if you think the great shaking is already over...you have a deep misunderstanding of what the shaking is all about.

Regards,

[Ted Oplinger]

I for one see, if today EGW were here she would make a strong stand against all that has come in and spelled kosher.

The shaking that is coming now is to shake out the true ones out of all the sructures of men.

Not many will be keeping Sabbath when the decree comes down and far fewer afterwards.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

Aye, Gibs, she would, she would. But she'd be doing it as one not leaving her post on His ark.

If one abandoned their post, then their place on Christ's ark, they ought be thinking THEY were shaken out. But know for certain, that EGW stated the ship would only APPEAR to falter and fall - but Christ will not allow man to make a complete wreck of His work. He commanded the ship to meet the Alpha head on; it is the same ship that will encounter the Omega. Were EGW alive today she would not have too many kind words for many things in the Remnant, to be sure - but I also know from her writings she would far fewer kind words for those who think as you do, Gibs.

Jumping ship, thinking you can come back when all is safe for your sensitivities to error, is a bad strategy, Gibs. You just might come back and find out it was someone like me who filled the post you abandoned, and stayed with the ship through every storm of error, trusting in the Captain of our souls He would take us safely through the storm.

I tend to be much more positive about how many will be found true to Christ in the end, as per the rebuke Elijah received for his pity-party in the wilderness.

I also tend to think they won't be participant in the attitude of, "Stand thou not next to me, for I am holier than thou" - one of many things Isaiah was instructed to rebuke the Jews for.

Blessings,

[Gibs]

Ted,

Do you realize that in 1901 she had just been able to turn the church around and then not wholly.

Then in 1904 they whipped it right back and took it their way and they haven't looked back since!

She was a very discouraged one after that date and her testimony of the church was altogether different. She was heart broken and she had few cohorts on her side.

She had lost almost total control in anything of the church after that date.

How long has it been since Ted Wilson made his adddress when taking the position as president and has anything come of his stand of what was coming in and more since?

No! And it won't either! The reason is because of what most of the leadership is of. I don't want to be assasinated or I would tell more.

There is some things you can't say or tell! You don't know but I am already a marked man for my testimony.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

Gibs says,

"...a marked man for my testimony."

That reminds me of what happened to some in the Civil War. Some young men were boldly proclaiming that, as Seventh-day Adventists, even if it meant the death penalty for treason they would refuse to fight in the war. They were bold, brash, proud and loud. James and Ellen White said they were fools and their death would be nothing short of suicide. They were others who were seriously, quietly contemplating their future and how they might respond. These were the ones with the proper response, a humble spirit, recognizing the last thing they needed was attention! In a worst case scenario these would be the true martyrs.

When Israel was being taken captive by Babylon, Daniel told the people to go quietly, not resist, be humble. He recognized the same principle the Whites did, only a fool spits in the face of "Government" when your life is on the line. No doubt many proud Israelis went to their death at the hands of Babylon, in effect, committing suicide. While declaring they were ready to offer their life for the love of their people. But it was not love they had, it was a counterfit and they will have no reward.

"Though I deliver my body to be burned..." Be careful what you wish for, the devil will happy to give it to you.

[LoneRanger]

Just a thought... Growing up I often heard things like "This is God's church." and "We are the Remnant People" and no matter how bad things appear to get stay with the ship, and God will see His church through. And the quote someone pasted earlier in this thread that the church is the only object of Christ's affection...You get the point.

My question is, why should we apply all this council to the SDA church, and not to the Catholic Church? After all, the CC is the church started by Christ and the Apostles. It seems a bit self-serving to "not abandon the (SDA) church" for exactly the same problems we castigate the (Catholic) church.

[ClubV12]

Growing up, you heard the truth LoneRanger. As to WHY, this and many other questions will ultimately be found only as if searching for hidden treasure. Check out the thread, "Visible or Invisible". Understanding our history has been a big help to me in understanding the roll and calling of the Church today.

Sister Whites counsel can be confusing about how to work within and without the organized Church. The balance will only be found through a humble, teachable spirit as guided by the Holy Spirit.

Some, have had to remove themselves from the organized Church and I sympathize and understand the need to do that in some cases. Others have started independant ministries where they enjoy more freedom from condemnation and nay sayers as they apply the blueprint and instructions from Sister White in a more dedicated way than a typical Seventh-day Adventist Church. As for myself, when I was in a larger Church there were many functions I did not approve of, so I didn't attend them. But I didn't speak evil of them either! Eventually, I moved to a smaller Church because I believe thats what many of us should do. Leave the large ones in an effort to support the smaller, even dieing, ones.

But heres the thing, in all that I've said above I see a common factor when the counsel of Ellen White is understood in a balanced and thoughtful way. DON'T remove your membership. DO continue to support the Church, with your tithe, pen and voice. DON'T speak evil of it. The organized Church has a work to do, it is indeed Gods chosen vessel. YOU may be called to a work that is not along the "regular lines". One of Ellen Whites son was called to that kind of work. Paul was like that, he was self supporting, took no pay from any Church. Yet he continually visited, encouraged, preached and help support them. Offering reproof when needed, encouragement when needed.

You can be separate and yet remain a member of the body. When you protest by removing your membership and speak evil of your brother you have become unbalanced (to say the least).

There is no other Church preaching the three angels message of Revelation 14. THIS is fundamentally WHY this Church was raised up, it is our mission. It's what we are called to do.

When Jesus said, "Salvation is of the Jews". Many must have thought Him as arrogant, boastful, proud, but he spake the truth. Today, that Church is indeed, Seventh-day Adventist.

[LoneRanger]

While I appreciate your perspective, I can neither agree with it nor find an answer to my question.

[ClubV12]

Keep digging for the treasure LoneRanger, I wish you the very best.

"He will guide you into all truth" (John 16:13), the Saviour declared. If men are willing to be molded, there will be brought about a sanctification of the whole being. The Spirit will take the things of God and stamp them on the soul. By His power the way of life will be made so plain that none need err therein."

Acts of the Apostles pg 53

[LoneRanger]

Keep digging for the treasure LoneRanger, I wish you the very best.

"He will guide you into all truth" (John 16:13), the Saviour declared. If men are willing to be molded, there will be brought about a sanctification of the whole being. The Spirit will take the things of God and stamp them on the soul. By His power the way of life will be made so plain that none need err therein."

Acts of the Apostles pg 53

Thanks

[CoAspen]

Quote:

To not speak up against incoming errors is being a party and team player with it.

And there in lies the problem! People concentrate on what they believe is error or their interpretation of such, and never stop judging. If the focus is on what others are doing, what time is left for Christ?

[Gibs]

It sure is CoAspen, and who do you of men put your trust in for the issue of eternal life?

The best place is to go to the fountain and foundation for all truth, wisdom and understanding, The holy Word of God. He will not mislead you and fill you with the false. You can put your trust in Him and have peace knowing you have built on the "Rock".

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Ted Oplinger]

Ted,

Do you realize that in 1901 she had just been able to turn the church around and then not wholly.

Then in 1904 they whipped it right back and took it their way and they haven't looked back since!

She was a very discouraged one after that date and her testimony of the church was altogether different. She was heart broken and she had few cohorts on her side.

She had lost almost total control in anything of the church after that date.

How long has it been since Ted Wilson made his adddress when taking the position as president and has anything come of his stand of what was coming in and more since?

No! And it won't either! The reason is because of what most of the leadership is of. I don't want to be assasinated or I would tell more.

There is some things you can't say or tell! You don't know but I am already a marked man for my testimony.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

You do realize, Gibs, that most of Israel's WORST acts of faithlessness were still future when God turned them back to wander for 40 years? Did that give Joshua, Caleb, Moses and others the Right to split off from Israel, to form a more perfect people of God?

I'll give you a hint, Gibs: when God offered Moses just that opportunity, Moses turned God down...and instead plead for the lives of those who did not deserve such intercession.

When given the same opportunity, Gibs - to split away from , or remain with and intercede for - which did you take?

You act as if a) YOU are the sole person right with the Lord, and that it is man's job to keep the ship afloat and righted.

You are wrong on all 3 counts, Gibs.

You jumped ship, deem yourself higher than those of us who don't believe as you do, and have indicated it's the people's job to keep the ship afloat and righted...when it is Christ Jesus who keeps the ship afloat and righted.

There are leaks and troubles everywhere, but I submit that it is our job to remain, do the Lord's bidding, aid our crew mates who need aid - and not jump ship because one feels our crew mates are too foolish to see the wisdom of one's beliefs.

The Lord knows who are His, and guides His people safely in the storm, regardless of how perilous the ark circumstance' may seem.

Blessings,

[Gibs]

I do not believe in remaining where apastasy is coming in and being upheld by the great majority. Is it safe to follow the majority? Very seldom is the answer.

Too much has come in and nothing done about it and more is now coming in so fast it just shows that what the denomination says is the gospel to the faithful of it.

For example, the Catholic people hold as most do in the church structure they are in, the church can do no wrong.

Well the gospel is the truth, and that is what I not only will follow but will stand up for.

My Saviour is Jesus Christ and no church denomination structure of men.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Ted Oplinger]

Just a thought... Growing up I often heard things like "This is God's church." and "We are the Remnant People" and no matter how bad things appear to get stay with the ship, and God will see His church through. And the quote someone pasted earlier in this thread that the church is the only object of Christ's affection...You get the point.

My question is, why should we apply all this council to the SDA church, and not to the Catholic Church? After all, the CC is the church started by Christ and the Apostles. It seems a bit self-serving to "not abandon the (SDA) church" for exactly the same problems we castigate the (Catholic) church.

It would appear that you are saying Christ started the Roman Catholic Church.

If so, you could not be more wrong in understanding early church history history.

The Roman church was not even in existence in the 20 years after Christ ascended.

We are not even told in the book of Acts who it was who first brought the Gospel to Rome, as there were already believers there by the time Paul first arrives as the first Apostle there - in chains.

No Apostle is recorded nor verified to have visited Rome prior to Paul.

The Catholics claim Peter was the first bishop of Rome...but Peter's ministry was in Jerusalem, not Rome, and Peter's stay in Rome was very brief before he was crucified upside down.

No, the Roman Catholic Church gained its power over Christendom, not by Christ's appointment, but by the power of the emperor declaring the Bishop of Rome to be pre-eminent over all other bishops within Christendom. (first, Constantine, then Justinian).

When faced with opposition from within, the Papal authority ex-communicated, then executed.

It chased those holding to the truth, out. Even so, there is recorded within the 7 Letters that some remained within, who did not hold to the errors.

When Luther wanted to reform the church, he was chased out. They then gave him a mock trial at the Diet of Wurms...which turned disastrous with the Augsburg Confession of the German bishops. Only then was the Remnant separated away from what had become fallen, apostate before God - as it claims the place of God above mankind.

Not man's doing, but God's own doing - according to prophecy.

In the ~300 years between Luther and the 3 Angels, the Church fled, was nourished of God. The Remnant began recovering Light which had been lost over the previous 1500 years, culminating in the Advent movement in the early to mid 1800's.

You know the rest.

Through Ellen White, the Lord said there would not be another calling out - the Advent movement will be the ship which reaches port, regardless of how many troubles she has at the current time. Here, the 3 Angels' messages were given, and through the movement they will find their proper voice.

Blessings,

[Gibs]

Ted, what I was explaining to you and you know this, Catholics and all other denomintions have people in them like you who feel "their church" can do no wrong.

I do know this, at one time the SDA denomination had come the furthest in reformation. It needed to keep up the reform and I suppose you see it gaining in reform, but Brother I see the opposite.

Don't you think that all the other denominations members think the same and uphold them furiously.

You bet they do.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[LoneRanger]

It would appear that you are saying Christ started the Roman Catholic Church.

If so, you could not be more wrong in understanding early church history history.

etc., etc.

Interesting twist on interpreting history. A more accurate view would be that in the beginning there was only a Christian Church, which morphed into the RCC 300-400 years after the events of the NT.

So, yes, that (RCC) would be the church that Christ founded, despite your clumsy attempt at warping history.

[ClubV12]

"...(RCC) would be the church that Christ founded..."

I don't know Loneranger that is quite a stretch. I follow your logic, but it's fairly twisted path to get there. If a company is taken over in a hostile take over move, like a hundred years after it's founded, was it the founders fault?

Ted says,

"...when God offered Moses just that opportunity, Moses turned God down.."

The opportunity to leave the "Church", the people of God. He could have, and just let them all burn right there, be done with them. But he was willing to sacrafice himself to stay with them, he was so determined to stay with his people it was more precious to him than life itself. And this while their in the very act of full blown open sin and idol worship!

Wow, that really hit me just now, on a couple of levels. The paralell with Christ is powerful and humbling. That is a wonderful example of staying the course, no matter what.

[phkrause]

You know what I'd like to see is the reply from Pr DB.

[Ted Oplinger]

Ted, what I was explaining to you and you know this, Catholics and all other denomintions have people in them like you who feel "their church" can do no wrong.

I do know this, at one time the SDA denomination had come the furthest in reformation. It needed to keep up the reform and I suppose you see it gaining in reform, but Brother I see the opposite.

Don't you think that all the other denominations members think the same and uphold them furiously.

You bet they do.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

I'd accept your explanation a little easier Gibs, if you weren't so wrapped up in your own sense of righteousness.

Never ONCE have I declared the SDA Church can do no wrong, nor have I stated it is currently gaining in reform over what it used to be.

I DO admit the SDA Church carries with it far more reform than any other denomination.

But as I have said a great many times - the denomination does not contain the vast bulk of the Remnant.

The Remnant movement is not synonymous with the denomination. Currently, the SDA denomination houses the Remnant church. Those not yet called out into the movement have yet to see the issues as God sees them, so they stay within the denomination of their choice, for the time being. The people in the other denominations (including the Roman Catholic Church) must be able to see the issues in the light of God's Reformation, versus the Papacy's Counter-Reformational ecumenism, in terms of God's character....but that day is not yet, as people just don't see anything but a theological option at present time.

Again, you overgeneralize, and you confuse loyalty to Christ's ship to being a company yes-man.

Blessings (even to you, Gibs),

[Ted Oplinger]

Originally Posted By: Ted Oplinger

It would appear that you are saying Christ started the Roman Catholic Church.

If so, you could not be more wrong in understanding early church history history.

etc., etc.

Interesting twist on interpreting history. A more accurate view would be that in the beginning there was only a Christian Church, which morphed into the RCC 300-400 years after the events of the NT.

So, yes, that (RCC) would be the church that Christ founded, despite your clumsy attempt at warping history.

The early church did not "morph into" the RCC, LoneRanger. Emperor Justinian had his general (Belisaurius) depose an Arian Pope installed by the Ostrogoths, then, upon installing a new Pope of Rome, decreed that all church clerics are to considered subordinate to the Bishop of Rome.

Man, by power of the state, decided for God who the church leaders should be, and what their doctrines should be. All the other church congregations in all the other cities were required to submit (under penalty of Law) to this new spiritual monarch.

That is how the first "denomination" was formed. And under penalty of law, this "denomination" had the advantage of full state authority to be considered THE form of Christianity - regardless of what people of the Word of God said to the contrary.

Even Wikipedia gets that one right...

Blessings,