Letter to Doug Bachelor

[JoeMo]

Quote:

EGW is not God or jesus.

True.

It is also true that EGW is not what many people make her out to be.

Thanks for that, Greg. For those of you where it is still Sabbath, Happy Sabbath!

[JoeMo]

Hi Deb,

In response to your questions:

Quote:

did you have to go find a new building?

No; we were already meeting in the basement of a much larger non-denominational church; where we continue to meet. We started as a church plant because we wanted more than a completely predictable Sabbath, sobriety, and closed-door exclusivism. We hoped God had more in store for His end-time church.

Quote:

what do you call yourselves now?

While we were in the "fold" we were "Lone Tree Community Church" Since the SDA denomination claimed they had rights to that name, we changed our name to "Tree of Life Church". our website is http://www.itreeoflife.org/

Quote:

do many members of your church retain their sda membership and membership in your church?

Most of our church members who came from Adventism still have their names on the church books. In fact, I still do praise music and teach Sabbath School at some of the conference SDA churches.

Quote:

is your whole church following the Charismatic tradition?

Yes. That being said, "charismatic tradition" is a relative thing, Deb. Compared to 90% of SDA churches, we are totally charismatic. Compared to some of the other charismatic churches in town, we are tame. Several members here have a prayer language (never used in public worship); lots of hand-raising and swaying/dancing to the music, healing services (complete with miraculous healings). Even an occasional person being "slain in the Spirit". But no running around the church hooting and hollering, no "holy" animal noises, and no uncontrollable twitching around on the floor. I want to emphasize that we do not consider charismatic experiences as necessary prerequisites to being "charismatic" or "spirit-filled". About half of our congregation shows no charismatic manifestation at all; they just enjoy the passionate worship and uplifting words.

I have learned that charismatic manifestation does not equal "out of control". I have a prayer language; but I decide when to use it - it does not just "fall" on me. I have experienced what I call "spiritual drunkenness"; but I decide whether I want to go there and when it's over. I have been totally overwhelmed by the Spirit, but God is kind enough to bring the experience to an end if I become too overwhelmed.

If you want to know more, please PM me - I would be glad to share with you. I hesitate to get into too much detail here because I don't want to diss Adventism (I still consider myself an SDA); and many people here already have sufficient reason to think I'm more than a little bit weird.

[ClubV12]

Gibs, you posted the two most frequent quotes I hear often at my Church. In fact, the "God has a church. It is not the great cathedral," quote was brought up again in Sabbath School class this morning.

Sigh,,, The person this morning that, once again, brought it up is the same person that will stop people in the foyer of the Church after the common meal to ridicule their selection of desert. It's typical of a few other people that attend my Church that really like to focus on the thorns, the brambles and the trash along the narrow path. The same people that openly and consistently trash talk the organized Seventh-day Adventist Church as being in apostasy. The same folks that declare that God has abandoned the organized Seventh-day Adventist Church and it is no longer the chosen vessel to deliver the three angels message to the world.

Any of this sound familiar, Gibs?

God certainly HAS a Church. It is organized for service. It has a mission and a message.

For those that know and have heard the three angels message, for them, it is where salvation can be found. There is no other option, this IS the test that will be brought to every person who has knowingly rejected the official Church. PRIDE will increase their delusion and harden their heart to the truth.

Just like in Jesus' time, "Salvation is of the Jews". So it is today, Gibs, salvation is of the organized Seventh-day Adventist Church. This IS the vessel He has chosen to deliver to the world the three angels message. As backward as it may be, as deep in apostasy as it may be, it remains, that chosen vessel.

Those who fight against it, fight against the throne of God, Gibs.

[Gibs]

Has all the stuff come in yet in your congregation ClubV12 that "emerging church" has brought in with it? Almost too numerous to list. Had NLP and SNLP come in yrs ago and then Lab 1,2 and 3. Has not the SDA church regressed since after 1901 and worse by 1904?

Many are rightly very concerned of these things and know not what to do as their voices will not be heard. They are just assured as we know best, just trust us!

Ted Wilson made a good speech and stand at his coming in as president, on "emerging church" but what happened to him and his stand? Was he overpowered? If so, by whom?

I don't fight against the Church of Jesus Christ, His Ekklesia. This is the ONLY one He made clear the gates of hell would not prevail against.

To the world, it is the invisible Church. It is not a structure of men, IT IS OF HIS BUILDING, and it's only creed book is the Word of God. These follow the True Shepherd and know Him well by a certain quality of voice, the TRUTH!

Mt 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock "I WILL BUILD MY CHURCH"; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

Church is Ekklesia above.

Keep in mind that the thrust of the 3 angels messages to the world is much encompassing and the summation is,

Re 14:12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[joeb]

No; we were already meeting in the basement of a much larger non-denominational church; where we continue to meet. We started as a church plant because we wanted more than a completely predictable Sabbath, sobriety, and closed-door exclusivism. We hoped God had more in store for His end-time church.

JoeMo,

Who cares if more than a few people here think you're a bit weird? I can guarantee that more than a few here think I'm weird, and I could care less.

As to what I quoted, I sure hope your church services in your new place of worship have a least a modicum of sobriety....

[JoeMo]

Hey Club,

You were pretty concerned about Sky not being a church member "in good standing"? FYI, you should have the same concern about Gibs.

[JoeMo]

Joe,

Like I said, I am still on the books; and still an active part of Adventism. I led praise music at a traditional SDA church this morning (so it was very sober); and I'm teaching a Sabbath School lesson on the prophecies about the Babylonian captivity and how they were fulfilled. I'm even using a lot of material from a prominent Adventist author of the late 19th - early 20th century - a book titled "Prophets and Kings". Good book in case you haven't read it!

[ClubV12]

None of what you mentioned has come into the Church I currently attend. I did see some of it in other Churches I visited and/or attended for a period of time. Now I'm in a small country Church.

The issues I face are a number of people, non members or those who have removed their membership, preaching openly the organized Seventh-day Adventist Church has fallen and been rejected by God. That it is no longer the chosen vessel to deliver the three angels message to the world. Some are more radical than others, taking such talk to the next level and making an open call for exisiting members to come out and remove their membership. Many of them are argumentative, even raising their voice in Sabbath School class and refusing to stop their dialog when asked to. There have been heated arguments with some in the parking lot in the past, not so much anymore. That was more the case before I started attendance there and some problematic people were simply NOT welcome on the property anymore.

I have learned a great deal from this about how to deal with these kinds of fanatics, off shoots and radicals. I try, not perfect yet, to NOT get sidetracked with all the standard quotes hurled like black balls that stain the Saints garments if you react. I have to walk a fine line between being courageous enough to stand my ground and yet respectful enough that I don't enter into their spirit of negativeness, fault finding and condemnation.

This morning was better than some, at least no one got up and walked out in a huff, which has happened a number of times in the past. The Church leadership is united on these issues, they are welcome to worship, but if they walk out, don't let the door hit your backside on the way out. The Church is better off without them, as per Ellen Whites counsel.

I stay focused on the pinks, the lillies, the roses. Leave the thorns alone, they will only hurt you. The counsel on what comprises the Church is to strong to ignore, to strong to overlook. This delusion that it has fallen is VERY strong and recovery is exceedingly rare. Pride,,, thats the biggest issue. How can a man return to fellowship after preaching error for so many years? The perceived humiliation and humbleness required is just to much for most to even consider it.

JoeMo, yes I am aware of Sky, Gibs and many others around here and their unique doctrinal view points.

[JoeMo]

Quote:

JoeMo, yes I am aware of Sky, Gibs and many others around here and their unique doctrinal view points.

I am aware that I probably fit in the boat you are describing. I admit that I have some beliefs that don't fit into SDA culture; and vice-versa. I'm OK with that. I'm not so sure 100% of what SDA's proclaim is required for salvation (e.g., believing EGW's writings are on a par with scripture). I think trusting in God's grace is more necessary for salvation than pleasing Him through perfect obedience (like that's possible? Have you ever met anyone who is perfect, except Jesus?)

[ClubV12]

It is one thing to be sorting out what one believes and coming to grips with his/her anchor points. It is another to have made those decisions and openly fight against the doctrines of the Church.

I struggled with some of these issues myself when I joined the Church and as I continued to grow in the Church.

For instance, belief in the gift of prophecy is not a test of faith. On the other hand, some openly, actively "fight against" the gift of prophecy. BIG difference. One is searching, contemplating, considering, wondering, the other has "settled into" his/her beliefs and find themselves in active, open disagreement with the Church. This type of behaviour can (and has) rise to the level of consideration for disfellowship!

There is a fellow in my Church who positively rejects in every way the gift of prophecy. Real nice guy, NOT a member, not raised Adventist, just comes to Church. I'm always happy to see him and he is courteous enough to not disrupt things or "preach" about the gift of prophecy.

There are many things people oppose about the Church beliefs, suggestions, general lifestyle, "rituals", etc. that are not tests of faith. Those things that ARE a test of faith are clearly laid out, there is no need for confusion on them. Those things for which a member can be censured or disfellowshiped are also defined. This is true of virtually any and all organizations and associations. There are certain minimum standards expected of a person if they wish to join.

[debbym]

Quote:

There are many things people oppose about the Church beliefs, suggestions, general lifestyle, "rituals", etc. that are not tests of faith. Those things that ARE a test of faith are clearly laid out, there is no need for confusion on them. Those things for which a member can be censured or disfellowshipped are also defined. This is true of virtually any and all organizations and associations. There are certain minimum standards expected of a person if they wish to join.

it is challenging to deal with divisiveness within the church. in our conference we have had to disfellowship some members who were trying to pull members out of the church with the jeff pippenger and his 2520 stuff.

It is strange to be policing and asking defiant members to exit the church. But it must be done when it must be done. God is a God of order and truth, and he does not expect our church families to be preyed upon and our churches fall apart from earnest perpetrators of error.

But it must be done in the spirit of patience and firmness and tenderness. It cannot be done without the power of the Holy Spirit over the heart and mind. The battle is real, and taking different shape in different places. These are signs that the conflict is heating up and will until the day Jesus comes.

we are to make straight paths for our feet, lest that which is lame be disabled, but rather let it be healed. he will make our steps sure. The work of righteousness shall be peace, and the effect of righteousness, quietness and assurance forever.

[debbym]

Quote:

Has all the stuff come in yet in your congregation ClubV12 that "emerging church" has brought in with it? Almost too numerous to list. Had NLP and SNLP come in yrs ago and then Lab 1,2 and 3. Has not the SDA church regressed since after 1901 and worse by 1904?

Many are rightly very concerned of these things and know not what to do as their voices will not be heard. They are just assured as we know best, just trust us!

Ted Wilson made a good speech and stand at his coming in as president, on "emerging church" but what happened to him and his stand? Was he overpowered? If so, by whom?

Wilson is speaking to this still, very clearly.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kBKPiS3ogro

[Gibs]

Deb, that was back in 2011, it seems some others may have him quieted. I haven't heard nothing recent, and there is some around me looking and hoping. I had high hopes at first, but with what is coming off at La Sierra I am pretty well shot down.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Ted Oplinger]

I put these two quotes together...

Quote:

"The church is God's appointed agency for the salvation of men. It was organized for service, and its mission is to carry the gospel to the world. From the beginning it has been God's plan that through His church shall be reflected to the world His fullness and His sufficiency."

and

Quote:

Not that I am all that familiar with the procedures at the top of that SDA church, but you talk about "appointed leadership"? When I think "appointed",I'm thinking "appointed by God" Like God appointed Peter as the leader of the apostles. OT prophets were appointed/anointed by God. To the best of my knowledge, the leaders in the SDA church are elected by other men - not appointed by God.

...and the second quote is also the first thing coming to mind for me.

The organizing is by God's appointing, not by man's election.

Church organization by God's appointing, if I go by the Scriptures, is to be headed by apostles, prophets, teachers, pastors (the gifts set in place for this work), with elders and deacons in charge of servant-leadership of local congragants.

Man, on the other hand, is deeply seduced by administration power - a gift Paul placed pretty far down on the list: it is important, but pales in contrast to those gifts God has deemed pertinent to power the Gospel work.

The Scripture is clear - the head of the church is to be Christ, not a GC President, nor a Pope. However, God's people have always craved to have visible person at the head, rather than the invisible God. It was true in Israel; it was true after the Apostles all died and passed from the scene. People crave powerful, strong-willed men at the top, to put at bay the world around them - people want their "organization" to be something they recognize works elsewhere, headed by someone they can hold accountable should things not go as they wish.

Blessings,

[ClubV12]

I can't imagine anyone disagreeing that Christ is the head of the Church! As the Father is the head of all of heaven. There is structure, organization, wheels within wheels when you consider the structure as noted in the bible. Both OT and NT.

Under the Father is the Captain of the Lords host, Jesus. And under Him the leadership continues. An angel in charge of a larger group of angels. Angels with specific jobs and appointments of a great variety. All under the command of the Captain.

Lets not confuse Israel wanting a King with the roll of Moses. Moses was the leader and under him various positions within that earthly Church. High Priest, other Priests, seventy elders, judges, and on and on it goes. It would appear that many of these man and women were not appointed directly by Christ, but were appointed by men.

The Captain is either in control, or He is not. I believe He is. Those appointed by His Church to a position are honored and recognized of heaven as being the leader in that position. What if they are not consecrated? What if they have no spiritual connection? Do you trust leadership all the way to the top, or not?

THAT is the TEST of faith that has been and will be brought to each one of us. Even Ellen White was not immune to the test. She had to, in faith, believe the Captain was in control regardless of her personal feelings on the matter. When she did not have direct light, she submitted herself to the brethren.

Do you believe Ted Wilson was appointed by the Captain or by man? I believe the Captain is in control, He will determine when a mans cup of iniguity is full and the matter needs to be dealt with, not you. I trust the counsel of the brethren under Ted Wilson to help guide this ship, to even remove a President if they see the need to do so.

The test is: Will you stay with the ship? Or will jump overboard because you think you have a better way? An independant spirit is a prideful spirit. Such a spirit cherishes feelings of superiority. He is puffed up and consider himself better, smarter than other men. Let him jump ship and swim his own way, the ship is better off without him. As for me, I will trust the Captain to guide this ship even though it appears it will surely sink.

[Ted Oplinger]

I can't imagine anyone disagreeing that Christ is the head of the Church! As the Father is the head of all of heaven. There is structure, organization, wheels within wheels when you consider the structure as noted in the bible. Both OT and NT.

[ClubV12]

Ted, this was a general reply the questions and comments pertain to all, as does this post. Not to you or anyone specifically.

1888? Some think thats when the Church went into apostasy, was removed as the chosen vessel and as a result many left then and continue to leave now over this issue. Some started their own Church.

This has been the case for decades. Someone, some group, falling away from the body for various reasons. Trademark issue over the name? Yup. Corporation being formed for the Church? Bingo. 2520 beliefs being a test of faith? Same. It will continue, in every decade there is some issue to draw them away. Dr. Ford and his false sanctuary doctrine? Over a hundred SDA Pastors fell for that one. And then they were gone. And well before that going all the way back to 1844 and the great disappointment, we see the same thing. History repeats itself. The names and issues change, the game is the same. These ideas are certainly not new.

There are LOTS of "good reasons" for people to leave the Church. But it is not our work, to determine when that time comes. It is the work of the angels, of the shaking. I've heard a number of people claim the Church has fallen. To far, to deep in apostasy, to much in sin to recover. That is the test, how will each of us respond is the question unfallen worlds are watching for.

Does this sound familiar? The Church has fallen to far. It's what Lucifer told the angels in heaven during the rebellion. He told them, he let them know, he was smarter than they, had special access to the "law". "He was aquainted with the law" and he told them they had gone to far to return.

That lie continues, there is nothing new under the sun. The test will come to all in the Church. The evil doer will make sure each one of us has a very good reason we should stop paying tithe, stop supporting the body, stop coming to Church even remove our membership, start our own Church.

Thank you Ted, for staying the course, even when the waves are battering the ship. No one is called to blindly follow leadership. Nor are we called to abandon ship. What then shall we do?

We have good counsel on how, when, where, what we should do, how we should respond as we "occupy". This counsel is not for those who don't believe, it is for those who do.

If you are not a serious student of the counsel of the Lords messenger, you may well find yourself washed overboard. There is a reason the Lord has provided us with a heavenly appointed messenger, because in these last days, the waves are very high. The sailing very dangerous. Press together, hang on and keep looking up.

[ClubV12]

I'm really glad to see a number of independant ministries that are supporting themselves, living the blue print AND supporting, loving, working with, paying tithe to the work "along the regular lines", the organized Church. Thats just one of many different solutions the counsel of Ellen White brings out.

[Johann]

This has been the case for decades. Someone, some group, falling away from the body for various reasons. Trademark issue over the name? Yup. Corporation being formed for the Church? Bingo. 2520 beliefs being a test of faith? Same. It will continue, in every decade there is some issue to draw them away. Dr. Ford and his false sanctuary doctrine? Over a hundred SDA Pastors fell for that one. And then they were gone. And well before that going all the way back to 1844 and the great disappointment, we see the same thing. History repeats itself. The names and issues change, the game is the same. These ideas are certainly not new.

.

This is so true, Club. We have many, many movements and independent ministries among us.

Several years back the ASI was established to keep the good ones connected with the church. How has that functioned?

We still have some large ministries which are not recognized everywhere by the church, because they feel they are too independent of the church as a whole.

[Ted Oplinger]

Ted, this was a general reply the questions and comments pertain to all, as does this post. Not to you or anyone specifically.

1888? Some think thats when the Church went into apostasy, was removed as the chosen vessel and as a result many left then and continue to leave now over this issue. Some started their own Church.

[ClubV12]

"Remnant's movement, versus what is the Remnant's governing denomination."

How we got to our present form of Government may be less important than the fact that we are here, and it's not going away anytime soon! Once Israel got their King, that was the new reality. But I do love history and I agree 1888 was, and STILL is, a major turning point. Some people, even today, STILL leave the Church using 1888 as their "excuse".

There are many different thoughts on what will comprise the Omega. A new "prophet"? Many ARE looking for that, many do make that claim regularly to the G.C. For him/her to be widely accepted I suspect it would be a very charismatic, even handsome, type of person, with elegant speech and great knowledge. Just about the opposite of Ellen Whites early ministry! Someone charismatic would appeal to a wider range of people and more quickly.

There are many interesting dates in our history. My current studies, for some time now, have been centered on the camp meeting, back east, 1877, when Uriah spoke on the "Eastern Question" and James just about came unglued and felt compelled to counter Uriahs view. The ensuing arguments over that are still with us today as the heated debate continues. 1877, also a significant turning point in our history, in my opinion.

[Gibs]

Why don't "emerging church" and all that came in with it bother you folks who hold the structure hasn't fallen yet.

Besides these, yrs before and none have been rescinded, NLP, SNLP, Lab 1,2 and 3 all occult stuff as is what come in with "emerging church".

With it around 30 yrs ago here and almost the majority of the churches, we must be saved in sin as we are too weak to keep from it. We can't be perfect as He is was hammered!

The Remnant Church is not a sructure of men, He Jesus Christ built it and He ordains in it, not men. The creed book is His Word. His follow Him and know His voice by a wonderful quality, THE TRUTH!

Here is a quote of EGW SDA's love so much, but cannot be refuted!

"God has a church. It is not the great cathedral, neither is it the national establishment, neither is it the various denominations; it is the people who love God and keep His commandments. "Where two or three are gathered together in my name, there am I in the midst of them" (Matthew 18:20). Where Christ is even among the humble few, this is Christ's church, for the presence of the High and Holy One who inhabiteth eternity can alone constitute a church. {UL 315.5}

Where two or three are present who love and obey the commandments of God, Jesus there presides, let it be in the desolate place of the earth, in the wilderness, in the city enclosed in prison walls. The glory of God has penetrated the prison walls, flooding with glorious beams of heavenly light the darkest dungeon. His saints may suffer, but their sufferings will, like the apostles of old, spread their faith and win souls to Christ and glorify His holy name. The bitterest opposition expressed by those who hate God's great moral standard of righteousness should not and will not shake the steadfast soul who trusts fully in God. . . . {UL 315.6}

They that will be doers of the word are building securely, and the tempest and storm of persecution will not shake their foundation, because their souls are rooted to the eternal Rock.--Letter 108, Oct. 28, 1886, to her older sister and her husband who had not accepted the Sabbath truth." {UL 315.7}

Here is the verse where He tells HE WILL BUILD HIS CHURCH!

Mt 16:18 And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it.

That one is still standing today and He is calling out to all, first come out, and then come in.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

Gibs asks,

"Why don't "emerging church" and all that came in with it bother you folks who hold the structure hasn't fallen yet."

As for myself, because I believe prophecy, which says, "the Church will APPEAR as about to fall". All these things and more will come to pass. I will focus on presenting the truth. I DID carry around a fire extinguisher for awhile, running around trying to extinguish every wind of false doctrine I came across. Writing letters, making phone calls, being greatly concerned about where the Church was headed, what could I do to stop it. What a waste of time and energy that was! Trying to do the work of the angels, how foolish.

Now I present the truth as my primary witness tool. Jesus really does love you! The beauty of Gods law of love. The Church, His chosen people. They are times when I need to defend the Church, like in Sabbath School class when some "fanatic" starts in about how the Church is Babylon, blah blah blah. But thats not my primary focus.

My focus and your focus, Gibs, seem to be exactly opposite in that regard. Why do YOU worry so much about the "emerging Church" and so many other issues in a Church you don't even belong to? I wonder, what business is that of yours anyway? You have removed yourself from it, please, go find someone else to beat up. Perhaps you should enquire of the Baptists what their problem is?

[Ted Oplinger]

Still got that reading comprehension issue, Gibs?

My position is that the Remnant's issues started when they decided to accept Babylon's way of organizing the work, rather than the Lord's.

You want to maintain it is fallen; I maintain it never got off on the right foot to begin with.

However, I will not leave the Remnant's Ark, nor will I purposefully tear the body apart where I join in with it. I will work within the constraints imposed currently, as a godly man should.

Joshua and Caleb didn't ask for special dispensation apart from Israel's collective unbelief; rather, they maintained their presence in the camp as a daily reminder of the faith God desires His people to have.

The Remnant is far more extensive than most will admit, Gibs. It is not just a collection of Sabbath-keepers. The are a great many Sunday-keepers God even now regards as part of His Remnant: He cares for them now as tender lambs, and many God will call out into His flock at the Great Calling at the end. They, also, hear His voice. They just have never had the issues placed in front of them in a way that brings conviction.

Blessings,

[JoeMo]

Very well said, Mr. Iron Deacon!