How expensive is too expensive?

[cricket]

I don't presume to speak regarding social policy-makers. I just meant "us" as individuals.

[LifeHiscost]

Hopefully I'm becoming more of a product of God's experiences than of my own, at least independently my own.

God cares!

[Tom Wetmore]

Originally Posted By: cricket

Shouldn't a good and faithful servant have the patience to give fishing lessons as long as it takes?

That's a tough question. And the social policy-makers can't agree on that. Imho, if a person hasn't learned the lesson after 10 years for an adult and 15-20 years for someone younger, I doubt they will ever learn. Is there a place for tough love?

Is there a place for compassion for those unable to learn?

[Gerr]

Is there a place for compassion for those unable to learn?

Unable or refuse to learn? Even divinity struggles with justice and mercy. While mercy triumphs over justice, yet there is also a point in which mercy gives up and says, "Ephraim is joined to idols, leave him alone."

[joeb]

I've worked as a janitor and odd maintenance work, picked strawberries(hardest work I've ever done). I even joined the Navy because I had trouble finding a job as a college dropout. I sold books as a colporteur during the summer after I went back to school, worked at the McKee Baking Co. while in Collegedale. I do my own yard work. Our house in S. Cal was on a hill. I put the concrete block retaining walls myself with the help of an immigrant - in the heat of summer.

I've been retired from medicine now for 3 years, but recently I decided on another career just so I could contribute more to the church and to charity. So I've been going to school to learn a trade. I've met quite a number of middle-aged and retired people at the school learning the same trade.

Yes, it's a tough job market, and I can sympathize with that, but the immigrants don't seem to have trouble finding work because they keep coming. Let's be frank. It's beneath most Americans to do the work the immigrants are doing. Granted these are not high paying jobs. But how much incentive would I have to do low-paying hard physical labor if I can get assitance without working? There was a member in our church in S. Cal who had computer expertise but refused to work for <$70k/yr. The church was always helping them. I had an Uncle (since deceased) who worked 3 jobs, one full and two part time. I don't think it ever occurred to him to get assistance. Maybe it wasn't available in Hawaii then.

While it's not appropriate to use one's experiences as the standard for everybody else, one cannot totally ignore them either. I try to put myself in other people's shoes. The first generation Filipinos (which I am) who came to this country did all the kinds of work that the immigrants and illegals are now doing. With this background, I find it very difficult to listen to the victim tune because this is still the land of opportunity.

There are those playing the "victim tune", but there are also those who are putting forth all their efforts to find work and are still unable to find it.

I've picked strawberries, driven tractor, sorted apples, boxed apples, driven hyster, changed sprinkler pipes in a wide variety of applications including 10'-12' tall field corn that's fully tasseled out and mud 16" deep in asparagas fields, cleaned out steel alfalfa seed bins with a wire brush in July, pushed a broom, stacked lumber, ran a chipper in a sawmill, worked as a millwright, etc.... I did all that working my way through academy and then while deciding what I wanted to do. I had a 20 year career in a technical field. All that is gone. I can't do any physical work any more.

I spent 5 years job hunting after becoming disabled. Nada. Nothing. Who wants a 50-something, soon to be a 60-something, with major health issues? Nobody.

Just for your info, 8 years ago the unemployment rate for disabled people was 20%, and that didn't count all those who had given up looking. I was told that was approximately the same percentage at that time. What is the total unemployment percentage for those with disabilities now? I can't begin to guess, but it's gone up a whole lot more than national average as when times get tough the employers get pickier and pickier about who they will hire.

[Gerr]

I'm sure there are always exceptions!

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

I've picked strawberries, driven tractor, sorted apples, boxed apples, driven hyster, changed sprinkler pipes in a wide variety of applications including 10'-12' tall field corn that's fully tasseled out and mud 16" deep in asparagas fields, cleaned out steel alfalfa seed bins with a wire brush in July, pushed a broom, stacked lumber, ran a chipper in a sawmill, worked as a millwright, etc.... I did all that working my way through academy and then while deciding what I wanted to do. I had a 20 year career in a technical field. All that is gone. I can't do any physical work any more.

I spent 5 years job hunting after becoming disabled. Nada. Nothing. Who wants a 50-something, soon to be a 60-something, with major health issues? Nobody.

Just for your info, 8 years ago the unemployment rate for disabled people was 20%, and that didn't count all those who had given up looking. I was told that was approximately the same percentage at that time. What is the total unemployment percentage for those with disabilities now? I can't begin to guess, but it's gone up a whole lot more than national average as when times get tough the employers get pickier and pickier about who they will hire.

With no intention to belittle those whose life has been one frustrating circumstance after another, I can suggest even when experiencing the relief of undeserved promises of God being literally fulfilled, I still look with increasing fondness for this one yet to come.

"...why do you stand gazing up into heaven? This same Jesus, who was taken up from you into heaven, will so come in like manner as you saw Him go into heaven.”"Acts 1:11 NKJV

" And everyone will see him— even those who pierced him. And all the nations of the world will mourn for him. Yes! Amen!"Revelation 1:7 NLT

"In Him you also who have heard the Word of Truth, the glad tidings (Gospel) of your salvation, and have believed in and adhered to and relied on Him, were stamped with the seal of the long-promised Holy Spirit.

That [spirit] is the guarantee of our inheritance [the firstfruits, the pledge and foretaste, the down payment on our heritage], in anticipation of its full redemption and our acquiring [complete] possession of it—to the praise of His glory.

For this reason, because I have heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus and your love toward all the saints (the people of God),

I do not cease to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers."Ephesians 1:13-16 AMP brackets parenthesis their's LHC

God cares!

[joeb]

I'm sure there are always exceptions!

Do you really hear yourself, Gerry? Those of us who have been putting forth all our efforts to find work in this environment are the "exceptions"?

You don't really have a clue as to how hard times are. The unemployment numbers have been played with again and again so that they don't come close to reflecting the same numbers as during the Great Depression. Back then part time work wasn't a part of counting those who are employed. Now, part time work is about all that's available for the average American, and even that's going to get worse under Obama. Soon, if it isn't already, part time is going to be the new normal.

The addition of part time workers to the rolls of "employed" is only one of the changes made when figuring out the unemployment rate so that the numbers will look better than they actually are.

Right now, in the county I live in, the published unemployment rate is 11%. That means the real unemployment rate is much closer to 25%. That's that very close to 1 in 4 people are either under-employed or fully unemployed. Ever job hunted in those conditions, Gerry? Sounds like "Great Depression" numbers to me. Still want to cling to your "exceptions" comment?

[Bravus]

'under Obama'

You really think the plight of the unemployed and minimum wage workers would be *better* under the Republicans?

Are you not listening to what they are saying?

[joeb]

'under Obama'

You really think the plight of the unemployed and minimum wage workers would be *better* under the Republicans?

Are you not listening to what they are saying?

Every one of Obama's fiscal policies hurts the working man the most. He thinks business is a dirty word, or must, because of how repressive his policies are to business, not just big business, but to all small businesses too. So, yes, under Obama things are much worse for the little guy than they are under the Republicans.

If you don't think the above is correct, you're not really thinking this through. Look at what is happening just because of Obamacare. He's turning almost the entire job market in the US into part time work with zero benefits for the working man. That's a very repressive policy.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

I'm sure there are always exceptions!

Do you really hear yourself, Gerry? Those of us who have been putting forth all our efforts to find work in this environment are the "exceptions"?

Are you saying that everyone one the dole or assistance are all disabled? My wife's niece who lived in Florida lost her job. She didn't look for a job for almost a year. She only started looking when she knew her unemployment benefit was running out. I had a patient once who kept trying to get disability. My employees could see him out the window in the parking lot walking without any problem. But once he came through the door would limp in!

[Tom Wetmore]

There are always going to be people that will try to con you and game whatever system you have. But they really are not the majority of the recipients. To terminate the whole program because of a handful of crooks is really throwing the baby out with the bathwater. It really is like solving the serious problem of shoplifting by closing down all the stores.

[Neil D]

Originally Posted By: Bravus

'under Obama'

You really think the plight of the unemployed and minimum wage workers would be *better* under the Republicans?

Are you not listening to what they are saying?

Every one of Obama's fiscal policies hurts the working man the most. He thinks business is a dirty word, or must, because of how repressive his policies are to business, not just big business, but to all small businesses too. So, yes, under Obama things are much worse for the little guy than they are under the Republicans.

If you don't think the above is correct, you're not really thinking this through. Look at what is happening just because of Obamacare. He's turning almost the entire job market in the US into part time work with zero benefits for the working man. That's a very repressive policy.

I challenge this....

Name the fiscal policies that are hurting the working man implemented under Obama...

10 years ago, the republicans implemented a "doughnut hole" in medicare that covered the elderly that was cheap up front, but cost and took more money out of the pockets of the elderly if they exceeded cost of care in 2 years...It cause many to declare bankruptcy and was poorly explained to them. It hurt many..Under Obama, that has been omitted from the medicare insurance...

There are far more things that are implemented that help the general public more than specialized groups....

[Gerr]

I have never and will never advocate terminating welfare or any assitance programs. However, I would definitely tighten eligibility, birth control for reproductive women, require some kind of work in return, time limit for the able-bodied. The Mormons are well-known for taking care of their own, but I've talked to a Mormon before and no able-bodied person is ever given anything without some labor in return. I would even reward those who work in jobs that do not pay enough with some kind of supplemental assistance.

[Bravus]

Quote:

I would even reward those who work in jobs that do not pay enough with some kind of supplemental assistance.

The problem with this is that it's not even a proper free market. It's not conservatism or capitalism. It's the government intervening in the market, with taxpayers' money. It means that those in minimum wage jobs live from hand to mouth, while those who own the businesses live on enormous profits, because they do not have to pay the full labor costs of producing their goods and services.

The US has moved away from capitalism into a form of socialism, in that the taxpayers support some people. Those people are just the 1% of fabulously wealthy, rather than the growing percentage of working poor.

Sure the Bible says (in one place) that if someone refuses to work they shouldn't eat. It also says 'the workman is worthy of his hire'. Perhaps that's a principle the churches can get behind?

[phkrause]

I have never and will never advocate terminating welfare or any assitance programs.

I for one Gerry am thankful for assistance programs. If not for them, my two grandchildren would be in another foster home and probably out of our lives.

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

However, I would definitely tighten eligibility, birth control for reproductive women, require some kind of work in return, time limit for the able-bodied.

I agree, but not sure if that would work. I do like what Florida has done as far as welfare receipians(sp) are concerned. Problem is, what they seem to think the poverty level is.

[Gerr]

Problem is - how do we determine what a person is worth?

[cricket]

Problem is - how do we determine what a person is worth?

Matthew 10:31 Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.

Matthew 22:39 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Problem is - how do we determine what a person is worth?

Matthew 10:31 Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.

Matthew 22:39 39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

So would you pay the CEO same as the employees? The butler same as the president? A neurosurgeon same as the trash collector?

[phkrause]

So would you pay the CEO same as the employees? The butler same as the president? A neurosurgeon same as the trash collector?

I don't think she's saying that. Personally they should not be paid the same.

[cricket]

So would you pay the CEO same as the employees? The butler same as the president? A neurosurgeon same as the trash collector?

I would pay each person the same wage per unit of value-added effort spent.

And since measuring a person's potential is virtually impossible (and thus, measuring the actual work hours spent also an impossibility), I'd pay everyone equally.

I realize this isn't practical in earthly economics.

The question asked originally was, "how do we determine what a person is worth?" And my response is that God sees each of us as being so incredibly worthy that He sent His Son to die for us. We are each more worthy than many sparrows. We should love (and thus, value) one another even as we are valued.

If that means teaching a man to fish 70 times 70 times, then that's what we do. And if he still can't get that fish on his own, we feed him again.

Speaking of butlers and presidents...have you seen the movie, "The Butler"? It's out in theaters now and it gives a great demonstration on the many ways people value one another.

[JoeMo]

Quote:

To make it fair, go get training in a field where hard physical work is required, plus a couple of years of training, and then go look for work. You'll be a newbie hunting a job in a market where the real unemployment rate is close 20%.

If you're over 50 and used to making a good salary (over $75k per year) and your job evaporates, good luck finding an equivalent position! I'm confident that a lot of those 43 Million people on food stamps aren't only disabled - they are older workers that are not preferred by companies looking for cheap energetic labor - people with cutting-edge tech skills, no family and no health problems. How many of us aging baby boomers can claim those attributes?

I had to find a new job at 60 years old. Praise God that He put me in the right place at the right time.

[Neil D]

Let's turn this around a bit......

IF all sins are rewarded with death, then why not all jobs the equivalent of a CEO's salary?

If the value of a job also leads to valuation of the individual, then there will be a portion of society that will always be revered and another portion looked down upon....

Which, morally speaking, is not right.....

[JoeMo]

In our twisted economy, the most important contributors to society (e.g., teachers, day-care providers, and non-professional health-care providers)are paid the least; and those who contribute little or nothing to the betterment of humanity (e.g., actors, rock musicians, professional athletes)are paid the most.

Concerning the CEO pay question, I think a CEO, COO, CTO, etc. should pay more than less weighty positions. But is a day's work by a big-company CEO worth as much as a year's work by a staff professional? I make a good 5-figure salary every year. At $10 Million per year, a big-company CEO makes as much in a day and a half as I make in a year. Is a CEO really worth that much?

People responsible for educating our children sufficiently to live independently make $30 - $50k per year. Less than half the salary of the aforementioned CEO. Are they really worth that little?

[Gerr]

When I asked the question - how do we determine how much a persone is worth - I was not talking about their spiritual value. We are talking about economics here. Yes, the value of even the man in the gutter can only be measured by what God spent to redeem him. However, we also live in a fallen world. I believe that there is a value system even in God's economy. If more accountability is required of those given much, then the rewards must also be proportionate.

If a person can't learn how to fish after you've shown him 70x7, he/she is either an idiot (in which case the humane thing to do is to keep feeding), or refuses to learn and just wants to live on the fruit of others' sweat. I personally refuse to be a party in producing/encouraging irresponsible people.

No, I haven't seen the film but we are planning to see it.