Truth of the Matter

[cricket]

How much truth of a matter does Jesus expect us to uphold? To what degree of lies and deceit is reasonable and acceptable to a Christian lifestyle?

[Bravus]

I would say 0% lies and deceit, 100% truth... but I would say that it's not necessary to tell all the truths you know at any given time, particularly if others will be hurt. Going up to a neighbour and saying "Mrs Jones, your kids are unruly, your husband is a sleaze and your dog is so ugly I can't tell whether it's arriving or leaving" might be telling the truth, but it's hardly loving.

It's a fine line, and we want to feel as though it shouldn't be, but we need to always speak (and act) the truth, but not necessarily always speak all the truth. (And besides, in the example I gave above, all three of the 'truths' are actually matters of opinion.)

[cricket]

This makes sense, and it follows Jesus' example when he was asked what to do with the woman: stone her or set her free?

[Paula]

I want to join in here on a question I've had for a while now...

I have found at least one specific instance in the Bible where the a prophet of God, asked another person to lie, and it was all ok... I believe it was the case of Jeremiah, when the king came to see him, and was told to say that they were meeting on a different subject altogether (I don't have all the verses off the top of my head, will get them and post them briefly)... Another case is when Davids wife, Micah lied to her father Saul in order to protect David... we also find that Jonathan lies to Saul as well to protect David. In the story of Abram and Sarai, a lie is told of Sarai being Abrams Sister, instead of Abram getting in trouble for lying, the King gets in trouble for taking Sarai. Sometimes it seems as if it was OK to lie to protect a life... this goes against all I've been led to believe... but at the same time....

If you were hiding Jews from the Nazi's and they came to your house and asked if you were, would you say yes, and turn them over to be killed?

If you'r sister were being beaten by her husband, came to hide in your home,because he threatened to kill her, then her husband called and asked if she were there... would you say yes or no? If you said no... are you sinning?

If you lived in a communist country and were not allowed to have a Bible, but found out an official would be coming to search your home, and you then hid the Bible, wouldn't that technically be the same as lying?

Some people will say... you have to speak the truth and trust God to get you out of it... and I believe that... but we repeatdly read Mission Stories, etc.. about people in cases like the ones above... and no one questions their truthfulness....

It is very difficult to know how to act within these gray areas...

So what do you guys think?

[Fran]

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[:"red"] Exodus 20:16 “You shall not bear false witness against your neighbor.[/]

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It does not say unless. It gives no exceptions. Just because others lie, is not license for us to lie. Abraham lied because of lack of faith. God would have provided a way out. He wasn't given the chance to take care of it. Abraham did it his way, not God's way.

[UpperMidwest]

Actually, there is one example in the Bible where people lied and God blessed them for their lies.

Exodus 1:17-20 New King James Version. I added the inserts based on my study of the vocabulary and meaning.

17. But the midwives feared [loved] God, and did not do as the king of Egypt commanded them, but saved the male children alive. 18. So the king of Egypt called for the midwives and said to them, "Why have you done this thing, and saved the male children alive?" 19. And the midwives said [lied] to Pharaoh, "Because the Hebrew women are not like the Egyptian women; for they are lively and give birth before the midwives come to them. 20. Therefore God dealt well with [blessed] the midwives, and the [Hebrew] people multiplied and grew very mighty."

As he did for the midwives, it is clear from Scripture that God blesses people if they lie to save someone's life, because these liars are actually obeying the Lord's commandment, "Thou Shalt Not Kill."

Some posters mentioned other examples of the same thing.

Therefore, to answer Paula's question, you would never tell the Nazi government that you were hiding Jews - and there is every indication that God would bless you, if you lied to save the life of such a person.

The Ten Commandments are never a gray area if you can identify the issue and the Commandment involved. We see one Commandment while the Lord is looking at another.

Also, about the question regarding Bibles. The Lord said, "Search the Scriptures..."

The Communists would say the opposite, "Do NOT search the Scriptures." Therefore, you would obey the Lord and not tell the Communists you had Bibles in the house. This principle explains the thinking of Christian Bible smugglers over the centuries.

I hope this helps.

U.M.

[UpperMidwest]

With that said, it is true what Fran says about bearing false witness AGAINST A NEIGHBOR [or co-worker, or political candidate, etc.)

You would never lie to get out of a traffic ticket. You would never claim a fake injury after an auto accident.

U.M.

[Fran]

Could it be interpreted that God blessed the midwives because they feared (loved) God, and saved God's people (Males babies); NOT because they lied.

Were the midwives children of Israel under the 10 commandment covenant? Were they bound to that covenant? If not, the Lord would judge them and even use them for His purpose.

I cannot see where this scripture makes lying OK. Had the midwives not lied, God would have acted in their behalf and saved the males and maybe the females? We don't know.

Daniel could have continued to pray, but just not in the window and saved himself grief and staying overnight in the Lion Den Motel; but Daniel chose to be true and did not hide; God delivered him. What about the fiery furnace. God has always delivered his children who obey through faith.

God blesses those that Love God but do not have the complete truth. God judges from whence we came and by our knowledge of His word.

We will be judged by our knowledge and understanding. For me a lie, is a lie, is a lie. God promises us He will provide a way out.

[UpperMidwest]

Quote:

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Fran said:

Could it be interpreted that God blessed the midwives because they feared (loved) God, and saved God's people (Males babies);

NOT because they lied.

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Let me think about that one.

The midwives had to give an account. And, well, that's what happened. The blessing seems to come after they met with Pharaoh, not before.

In any case, could we say that Egyptian women gave birth exacty the same way as Hebrew women? Would that be fair?

Don't you think the midwives had delivered babies for both Egyptians and Hebrews and knew the score? Even though they lied, there still seems to be a blessing.

U.M.

[UpperMidwest]

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God would have acted in their behalf and saved the males and maybe the females? We don't know.

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Since the Hebrew people multiplied and became mighty, we know that the female population did well, too. Unless the boys did it all by themselves.

U.M.

[Paula]

UM,

I agree with you completely... While in my head and based on what one here's at church, we are led to believe that a lie is a lie is a lie.. I really do think that there are instances when it is not... The impression I get is that you cannot lie to save yourself... but you can to save another... and yet we here those, like Fran, who say, if you lie to save another, you may do so, but you will not get the full blessing you would have gotten, had you left it up to God... and that makes sense too... Thats why I called it a gray area... they are two thoughts that are very difficult to hold in ones head at the same time...

As for me, I very probably WOULD lie about the Nazi's in my house, AND about keeping a Bible, etc... And I WOULDN'T think I was doing something wrong... but of course, if I got caught, I would think I was being punished... hehehe...

This is just one of those areas where you just can't win... hehehehehe

[cricket]

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And I WOULDN'T think I was doing something wrong...

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This leads me to another question: the law is supposed to be written in our hearts; do we then believe (should we believe) that anything we feel is right, is? Conversely, anything we feel is wrong, is?

[Bravus]

It's complicated, but not that complicated: truth is an important value, but so is human life. In the instance of the midwives and the babies, life was more important than truth. It'd be ideal if values were never placed in opposition to one another by circumstances, but in this world they sometimes are, and we have to thoughtfully, prayerfully make a decision.

Chrys, I think that would be a dangerous approach, because although the law is being written in our hearts, they are also 'deceitful above all things and desperately wicked'. We're great at rationalisation, and are likely to feel that what is to our benefitis the right thing to say and do. I don't minimise the importance of what we feel, but it needs to be tempered by what we think, in the light of Scripture and the Holy Spirit.

The point is well made that the commandment is about bearing false witness against a neighbour. I'm not trying to rationalise or explain it away, but we extend this law, which was for the narrower case of court cases and legal proceedings and make it a blanket 'you must never lie'. We also ignore the 'against': the Nazis and Jews case is one of bearing false witness *for* your neighbour...

We can't be rigid and simplistic about it, but truth is a high value and a high calling in a world that's ruled by the Father of Lies. Do you tell someone about the defects of the car you're trying to sell them?

[Gail]

I have mentioned this before, that in the book Hiding Place, by Corrie Ten Boom, Corrie and her family lived during the time of Nazi Germany in Holland, and they were helping the Jews.

Corrie's philosophy was not to disclose the whereabouts of their guests, whereas her beloved sister would not tell a lie under any circumstances, no matter the danger.

One day the Nazis came to their home and they quickly hid their guests under the floorboards. When asked where the hidden people were, Corrie's sister said, "Under the table."

The Germans looked, then laughed and left.

It seemed as if God honoured Corrie's sister as she was totally honest. But God also honoured Corrie and the rest of her family as they helped many Jews during this period, even though it was not beyond Corrie to tell lies if needed in a tight spot

Their hearts were doing what they felt impressed to do, and that was to save human life

[Bravus]

Hmmm, see 'under the table' is technically true, but the intention is to mislead, so I'm not sure that if we're going to hold it up as an example of perfect honesty it holds water. Remember all that stuff in Matthew 5 about how important the intention is? Not saying she should have said 'under the floor', saying in this case the lives are more important than the truth.

[Fran]

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Do you tell someone about the defects of the car you're trying to sell them?

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ABSOLUTELY! "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you."

Not telling is being absolutely deceitful.

[Bravus]

Absolutely, I agree: I hope your vehement response doesn't stem from the fact that you thought I was saying we shouldn't! My point was that yes, even when it's difficult, even when it's personally costly, truth is hugely important. In particular in a situation like that, not telling is implicitly bearing false witness against our neighbour, since they are disadvantaged.

But tell me Fran, what would you have said in the Ten Booms' house?

[jasd]

>>It's complicated, but not that complicated: truth is an important value, but so is human life. In the instance of the midwives and the babies, life was more important than truth.<<

I think the above sums the surmisings rather neatly.

Remembering, that Christ was not made ‘perfect’ until having died, and extrapolating thence forward, one arrives at -- ‘our perfection’, likewise, depends upon individual paradigms. One is required to act upon circumstances that are unique to us -- in a manner perceived to most reflect a Christ/Gdly nature. That said, and

getting to the nub of the matter -- New Testament Writ attests that

Jesus disassembled

I think the Bible points to cost factors -- that is, which is the weightier…

Per: >>It seemed as if God honoured Corrie's sister as she was totally honest.<<

I believe that one weighing the above against

Biblical “guile” may be inclined to -- the ‘weightier’ argument...

[Fran]

This is a good example of God shielding His people. God always has a way no matter what.

[cricket]

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Hmmm, see 'under the table' is technically true, but the intention is to mislead, so I'm not sure that if we're going to hold it up as an example of perfect honesty it holds water.

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It is quite possible that the intention behind Betsie's honest reply was not to mislead. In reading the book this past summer, I was impressed by Betsie's faith. It never crossed my mind at the time that her intention was to mislead--but rather to follow God's command at all times.

I think, perhaps, God allowed the disbelief in the hearts of the Nazis so that His beloved children would be spared.

(This is neither here, nor there. Just an aside in the course of this conversation.)

[Fran]

Could it be that they were blessed BEFORE the lie, since they loved God and saved the babies before they lied?

To love God we have to have an experience with Him. That love came before the lie. Is it possible that God was already blessing them and continued to bless them in spite of the lie?

[Robert]

Then again, what do you do with this?

Titus 2:9 But avoid foolish controversies and genealogies and arguments and quarrels about the law, because these are unprofitable and useless.

[cricket]

I don't know.

Why was it so important to list the genealogy of Jesus? (Which, by the way, is another conversation in itself: Jesus was born of Mary and God, the Father--the genealogy of His heritage was nothing more than Joseph's genealogy.)

Honestly, Robert. I don't know what to do with the verse from Titus.

As for quarrels about the law, well, I do think it's important to understand fully what was intended when the law was given to us (whether we speak of the law as it was written in the Bible, or as it was written in our hearts). If God did not want us to understand the law, He wouldn't have given us the Bible, would He?

Admittedly, some of these conversations are foolish. Some are not.

[Stan]

one would have to define what is FOOLISH CONTROVERSIES apart from normal Controversies..

[Planey]

Normal controversies are ones where I don't really care on way or t'other.

Foolish controversies are where people disagree with ME!

Graeme