Truth of the Matter

[Fran]

The fellows up on the rooftop hiding were there to save their life. God never asked us to be doormats. NEVER! No on should suffer abuse any longer than it takes to get out and far away!

I am against abuse vehemently. Yet, I believe that anyone I come into contact with is my neighbor. My neighbor may be my worst enemy, yet he is my neighbor and I must realize that person is also a child of God. I can hate the sin and the evil that person is performing, but I must love the part that is God’s child until we can see that they have grieved the Holy Spirit away and turns their face 100% away from God.

I believe there are times when cases of abuse should hit the courts. Even if it is a self proclaimed Christian brother, should that neighbor or spouse physically, mentally and emotionally or any other forms of abuse hurt you or me; or any others for that fact.

There are pages and pages of different types of abuse. God does not want evil ones to destroy one hair of his chosen who are following the Father, Son and Holy Spirit in truth and faith. However, this abusive person is a neighbor. As hard as it is to do, we must also pray that they will come into a more complete understanding of the true God.

Sometimes, it is only through the court and jail that God can work with the abuser. This may be the only way that this person will feel the need to look to God for help. Many abusers justify their acts as Godly and do all they do in the name of the Lord. However, we as followers of God know that is not right. In fact, I can name cases whenever the abuser is held in high esteem over the abused and the abused is accused of all the misdeeds. This is a sin and needs to be exposed. The true abuser needs to be revealed so this abuser can be saved and the innocent can go free!

If people continually “persist” in their evil ways, and it is illegal, I would encourage the abused to file charges against that person. If that can't be done, hide as the men that Rahab hid.

If someone is at risk of loosing their sole, take action. If you continually come up against liars, expose them. When harassed, report them. Forgive them, but give them an opportunity to see their wrongs.

Many years ago, I would lie to save the hassle of anything. Then one day a lady came in to be interviewed. I had 2 slots and 25 applicants that qualified. I narrowed it to 4 to begin with. The 1st one that came in was very different from any of my employees. There was a calm assurance about her. I introduced myself to her and thanked her for coming. We exchanged the small talk and she spoke up and said that she was a Seventh-day Adventist and that she could not work from sundown Friday to sundown Saturday, but any other hours she would be available. After I finished asking all of those questions to make sure we don’t hire Psychos and passed, I hired her on the spot.

I also gave her a written document agreeing she would never be asked to work from sunset on Friday to sunset on Saturday and signed it and gave her a copy. I sent the original to the main office to give her that privilege as long as she was an employee. When it got signed, I gave it to her since I was training my replacement because it was time to leave the area.

She was honorable and told the truth. She stood for truth. God put me, a sinner and proclaiming no religion what so ever, to care for her. She had applied everywhere and no one would hire her.

What do we know of Rahab’s past? Could she have been a wayward child of God like I was? I would have lied for this girl at the drop of a hat!

But that day, I looked to God and asked him to help me not to lie anymore. Did it happen over night? No, but it set me on the right trail. I never told her I was raised and Adventist. I asked her a lot of questions about it though. She has left a lifelong impression on me. She was truly a follower of the King.

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Too often, a woman in an abusive relationship remains in that relationship after her husband stops being a "neighbor" and becomes a "non-neighbor." She, under those circumstances is not required to "do unto her husband as she would like him to do unto her." Her job, many times, is to extricate herself from a potentially dangerous situation. But many wives (and husbands) remain in abusive relationships too long under the notion that there is some biblical requirement to feed and clothe the enemy.

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It doesn’t matter if the abuser is a neighbor or not. God would that none of his children be harmed in any way. I loathe divorce, but in cased of abuse and sexual perversions such as incest and unfaithfulness over and over again should be dropped like a hot potato. I do not believe anyone should stay in an abusive situation.

Incest is the most horrid abuse! It puts fear into the hearts of that child. Females keep quiet to protect their moms. Boys do too. When the mom finds out many years later, it can destroy her soul. Then to add insult to injury facts start to come forth and you find this man has been visiting prostitutes for years. He is stealing his company blind. Yet, the wife stayed because of her understanding of divorce. This is grounds for divorce in spades. Yet there was even more abuse; the kind that only 2 people know about.

I have helped many abused ladies and some children. If I see a child abused it doesn’t hurt my feelings one bit to call Social Services. If I see a wife is being abused, I seek them out to help them with a list of places they can go and people to go see. One lady moved in with us for a while. I would do it again in a minute.

I have helped abused families within the church that are abused by the pastor! We have been abused by the church for helping the abused and exposing it. It is disheartening to sit and hear a pastor lie like a rug to save his scalp and his job! I have seen them have affairs with single mothers in the church that are so hungry for male attention. In fact, they are open prey! In fact the pastor that baptized us and his dear wife, were very best friends. Yet, he was messing around with a single mom at the time we were baptized plus many more later. He was exposed and was fired from the ministry. It broke our hearts. It broke their marriage. We still love them both! Yet it could not continue. No I was not the one who tattled. It came as a shock to us.

It all starts with a lie. She is not supposed to tell anyone about our family! Smack! Haven’t I told you to keep stuff quiet? You aren’t allowed to socialize! Yet in front of every one else and maybe even the world he treats her like gold! A big fat lie! They get bigger on meaner and soon they are justifying everything they do. Another big lie!

“I have to work late tonight.” “I’m sorry I am so late, I just lost track of time.” Then again it can be stupid lies like one of my brother-in-law’s pulled on my sister; she fell for it! “I went golfing at the lighted course over in xxxxxxxx.” He said at 6:00 AM as he came in the door to change his shirt to go to work! My sister told me that one and I just about died laughing! They got over that and are still married. Why? He found Jesus for real. His life turned 180 degrees.

Crime begins with a lie. I want this so I am taking it to be mine. Then we lie to ourselves that it really is ours. When killers kill, they lie to themselves thinking that they deserve to live and the other person doesn’t. They start to believe that lie.

I am sorry to go on and on about abuse. Right now I am praying for the abused that have become outcast as guilty when they are as innocent as the pure driven snow. And I watch the abuser getting away with that abuse and the world wandering after that beast. Yes, I believe in justice even in that matter. Sometimes exposure seems to be the only way God can change that abuser.

Well I will get off my soap box. I agree with you on the abuse. 1,000,000,000%

[LifeHiscost]

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jasd said:

Remembering, that Christ was not made ‘perfect’ until having died

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I would guess this Scripture attests to the truth of the matter re: Jesus' character, though not His flesh. OTOH in discussions of defining Jesus' attributes, I find that he who's heart is,

[:"red"] "The heart is more deceitful than all else

And is desperately sick;

Who can understand it?" [/] Jeremiah 17:9 NASB

..could hardly be considered adequate to describe Jesus, whose heart was inviolate.

[:"red"] "For we have not an high priest (Jesus) which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin." [/] Hebrews 4:15 KJV Parenthesis mine

[jasd]

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An aside…:

Lu 10:29 …who is my neighbour? … v36 Which now of these three, thinkest thou, was neighbour unto him that fell among the thieves? v37 And he said, He that shewed mercy on him.

The Biblical neighbour is one who does righteously.

“Abraham lied to Pharaoh of Egypt; later lied again to Abimelech of Gerar; Isaac lied to a different Abimelech; Jacob lied to Isaac; Elisha lied to the blind soldiers; (and so on…); and lest one objects with a demurrer, there is record of NT dissimulation.[:"red"]*[/] One might note that the heathen took umbrage (and sores ;-) at the lies. Might it have been that whereas, the OT ‘moral law’ does not contain the “Thou shalt not lie” proscription; --the moral laws of the heathen, by indication, --did? What does that say for ‘moral law’? mebbe there is reason that it is now obsolete; mebbe there is now a higher law of love/charity of grace by works, which rather, --obtains.”

[:"red"]*[/]Jn 7:1-11

[Fran]

Thank you for the scriptures. I am sure Uppermidwest had these in mind also. Thank you for bringing them to my attention. I will take this and may change my mind after further study. I will let you know. It sounds good to me from these two scriptures. I am always searching for truth and I will check more scriptures on this. I like Uppermidwest's definition and yours that is for sure.

[jasd]

Per …Christ was not made ‘perfect’ until having died --jasd

Heb 5:8 Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered; v9 And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

I feel that one would be justified to ‘read’ “suffered” as including that upon the cross and, ipso…, His death.

>>I would guess this Scripture…<<

’Scuse, I don’t quite understand exactly -- which Scripture you are referencing.

>>…attests to the truth of the matter re: Jesus' character, though not His flesh. OTOH in discussions of defining Jesus' attributes,<<

(are we alluding to Christ's nature -- here?)

I don’t think that one quoting or examining text is necessarily actually advancing a position -- let alone, should quoting text be perceived as expressing a negative opinion; nor do I suspect that there exists Biblical proscription against ‘quoting or examining’ text.

>>I find that he who's heart is,

[:"red"]"The heart is more deceitful than all else

And is desperately sick;

Who can understand it?"[/] Jeremiah 17:9 NASB<<

could not bear examination; however,

>>..could hardly be considered adequate to describe Jesus,<<

it is not I, Life…, --Writ describes.

>>…whose heart was inviolate.<<

Now, I assume you speak of “inviolate” in the sense of unprofaned -- I agree wholeheartedly. That said,

what do you think of commentaries which advance a broken (violate/impaired) heart that accounts for the “water mixed with blood”?

>>[:"red"]"For we have not an high priest (Jesus) which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin."[/] Hebrews 4:15 KJV Parenthesis mine<<

For such, ought we to express our praise.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Robert,

I've had time to think about 2 Thess 2:11 and do a little study.

I have come to the conclusion, (although open for discussion) that this verse means God literally sends the strong delusion. Here's why:

The admonition that Paul is giving them is concerning the day of Christ's return.

1 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

Then he tells them not to be deceived because there must come a falling away first and the man of sin be revealed.

3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

Then he tells them about the wicked one being revealed which is clearly end time

8 And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming: 9Even him, whose coming is after the working of Satan with all power and signs and lying wonders, 10And with all deceivableness of unrighteousness in them that perish; because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

The key here to understand this is verse 10 which describes those who have rejected the truth. It is during the final days of earth's history, this verse is not talking about those who were living in Paul's time as is noted in the first two verses. God does not want any to be lost but at this point everyone has made up their minds and probation is closed. Psalm 119: 126. It is time for thee, LORD, to work: for they have made void thy law.

We know that when men make God's law void and set up their own law and counterfeit Sabbath, enforced by the death decree, that there is no need for God through us, to persuade people as all decisions will have been made. Then will the words be heard. Rev 22:11 “He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.”

At this point the time of the Gentiles will be over and the seven last plagues will soon follow.

From what I have gathered here 2 Thess 2: 11 takes place during this time period when God will send the rejecters of His Gospel strong delusions because they believed (past tense) not the truth. But had (past tense) pleasure in unrighteousness; living apart from Christ, seeking their own righteousness. Remember what it says in verse 10

"because they received not the love of the truth, that they might be saved." It does not say they did not receive the truth but that they did not received the love the truth. This is a good description of religious people living in the end time.

Think about it and let me know if you think there is validity to this.

In Christ,

Norman

[cricket]

Robert, Norman,

You wouldn't believe it, but today's sermon at my church was somewhat focused on these very scriptures! In a few days, the link to the sermon will be up and running. I'm going to post it here for you to check out!

Seems to me that Norman is pretty close to the truth here, if not completely right on!

Chrys

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Christine,

That is truly amazing. The interesting part about this was that I didn't look at any of our commentaries. Before I started I prayed and then verses came to my mind, I thought about them and I understood it clearly. Praise God! I look forward to hearing your pastor's sermon.

In Christ,

Norman

[LifeHiscost]

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jasd said:

what do you think of commentaries which advance a broken (violate/impaired) heart that accounts for the “water mixed with blood”?

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I'm not convinced it's any more than speculation based upon the best evidence available for them to draw from. I base my conclusion upon the fact that Jesus' death, to be accepted for the death of the human race, had to draw from a life perfectly lived, without flaw of His own, else He would only have been able to pay for His own flawed character by His death.

A couple of Scriptures that make the word 'perfect' better understood for me to see it as consistent with other descriptions of the efficacy of His life lived for me, comes from more contemporary translations.

[:"red"] "Although He was a Son, He learned [active, special] obedience through what He suffered

And, [His completed experience] making Him perfectly [equipped], He became the Author and Source of eternal salvation to all those who give heed and obey Him" [/]

Heb 5:8,9 Amp

[:"red"] "So even though Jesus was God's Son, he learned obedience from the things he suffered. In this way, God qualified him as a perfect High Priest, and he became the source of eternal salvation for all those who obey him." [/] Heb 5:8,9 NLT

I'm not sure what is involved in Jesus' learning of obedience unless it could be referring to His new experience of life lived as a created being, susceptible to temptation at that, not having experienced anything less than equality with His Father prior to taking upon Himself flesh with the nature of failing.

[:"red"] "...although being essentially one with God and in the form of God [possessing the fullness of the attributes which make God God], did not think this equality with God was a thing to be eagerly grasped or retained,

But stripped Himself [of all privileges and rightful dignity], so as to assume the guise of a servant (slave), in that He became like men and was born a human being." [/] Phil 2:6,7 AMP

[:"red"] "Though he was God, he did not demand and cling to his rights as God. He made himself nothing; he took the humble position of a slave and appeared in human form." [/] Philippians 2:6,7 NLT

Blessings!!

[LifeHiscost]

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Robert said:

Then why does God claim he does it?

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Just a point to consider. There are a number of places where God plainly states Himself as responsible for, what from all outward appearances, would have to come only from the prince of darkness or his colleagues in criminal activity. This recognition from the Lord of glory fits perfectly into His character as having all authority.

[:"red"] "Jesus approached and, breaking the silence, said to them, All authority (all power of rule) in heaven and on earth has been given to Me." [/] Matthew 28:18 AMP

[:"red"] "It is for the sake of Jacob my servant, Israel my chosen one. I called you by name when you did not know me.

I am the LORD; there is no other God. I have prepared you, even though you do not know me,

so all the world from east to west will know there is no other God. I am the LORD, and there is no other.

I am the one who creates the light and makes the darkness. I am the one who sends good times and bad times. I, the LORD, am the one who does these things.

Open up, O heavens, and pour out your righteousness. Let the earth open wide so salvation and righteousness can sprout up together. I, the LORD, created them.

"Destruction is certain for those who argue with their Creator. Does a clay pot ever argue with its maker? Does the clay dispute with the one who shapes it, saying, `Stop, you are doing it wrong!' Does the pot exclaim, `How clumsy can you be!'

How terrible it would be if a newborn baby said to its father and mother, `Why was I born? Why did you make me this way?' "

This is what the LORD, the Creator and Holy One of Israel, says: "Do you question what I do? Do you give me orders about the work of my hands?

I am the one who made the earth and created people to live on it. With my hands I stretched out the heavens. All the millions of stars are at my command.

I will raise up Cyrus to fulfill my righteous purpose, and I will guide all his actions. He will restore my city and free my captive people--and not for a reward! I, the LORD Almighty, have spoken!" [/] Isaiah 45:4-13 NLT

Unlike fallen humanity, what God has in His power to prevent, He takes responsibility for doing. And in that attitude we find ourselves finally absolved of all guilt that would bring us death, the gift of His Son, He Who is equal to the Father, and has taken on His shoulders all the burden and pain of His straying children. We are left, as His fallen children, with the one responsibility of accepting His life freely offered by His Son, Jesus.

[:"red"] " You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you." [/] John 15:16 NASB

Keep the faith!

[Robert]

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From what I have gathered here 2 Thess 2: 11 takes place during this time period when

God will send the rejecters of His Gospel strong delusions

because they believed (past tense) not the truth.

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I can't agree with that conclusion. If God deceives the unbelievers to accept a lie then the lost could blame God for missing out on heaven.

Once again I see God assuming the blame because He, in His love, allows free-will.

Now look at the following:

• Exodus 4:21 And the Lord said to Moses, “When you go back to Egypt, see that you do all those wonders before Pharoah which I have put in your hand. But I [God] will harden his heart [why?] so that he will not let the people go.”

Remember God wanted to free His people...but if you go by this statement it seems that He was preventing their freedom by hardening Pharoah's heart. This doesn't make sense until you read the following:

• But when Pharoah saw that there was relief, he [not God] hardened his heart and did not heed them, as the Lord had said . . . But Pharoah [not God] hardened his heart at this time also; neither would he let the people go (Exodus 8:14, 32).

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Robert

I think you misunderstood what I meant.

You said

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I can't agree with that conclusion. If God deceives the unbelievers to accept a lie then the lost could blame God for missing out on heaven.

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What I was trying to say is that after unbelievers reject the love of the truth, (the Gospel) and probation is closed then God sends them the strong delusion. At that point God will have done nothing to interfere with their choices and they can't blame God for their losses. All choices will have been made. This is an end time description that Paul is giving as he is telling them about Christ's return and what will precede it.

What would be the point of God sending a strong delusion at that time, someone might ask? At which point I would ask the same thing about the 7 last plagues and then we could then see the reason why.

Does that make more sense?

Norman

[Robert]

• What would be the point of God sending a strong delusion at that time, someone might ask? At which point I would ask the same thing about the 7 last plagues and then we could then see the reason why.

What's the reason?

Remember that we are talking of the same God who was willing to say goodbye to life forever so that His enemies could take His place in heaven. And now I am to assume that He comes out of character and practices deceit?

I am not trying to give you a hard time, Norman, I just can't see God with attributes that belong to Satan.

Rob

[jasd]

Per “water mixed with blood”? -- you might find advances made in the field of synthetic blood plasma interesting…

>>[:"red"]And, [His completed experience] making Him perfectly [equipped], …[/] Heb 5:8,9 Amp<<

Right enough, “perfect” is both subjective and relative -- the degree of its apprehension further governed by the lens(es), or ‘window(s)’, through which we perceive a thing; that itself, being but one of many parameters and/or variables that bear upon the individual vis-à-vis an understanding of “perfect”. (Even the geometric axiom that the shortest distance between two points is a straight line obtains only within a limited paradigm.)

>>I'm not sure what is involved in Jesus' learning of obedience unless it could be referring to His new experience of life lived as a created being,…<<

>>[:"red"]"Although He was a Son, He learned [active, special] obedience through what He suffered …[/]<< [ed]

Neither am I certain. I can only rely upon text that utilizes “suffered” in its inclusively broadest sense, that is, unlimited; especially, as it might apply to the contents of the ‘cup’ delivered to Him whilst He 'hung upon a tree' -- the darkness of man’s corruption placed upon Him and borne to the “wilderness” (Which, you may have gathered, I advance as being the wilderness of habitation…, of tormented souls, --according to St Peter).

>>…less than equality with His Father prior to taking upon Himself flesh with the nature of failing.<<

Nicely turned.

An ameliorating affix per Christ’s ‘dissimulation’: Some might see

in the word feign -- a lie, whilst another sees a parable or shaded forthrightness…

its necessity sometimes demanded where ‘weightier matter(s)’ interpose.

One remembers, “so seeing they might not perceive, and hearing they might not understand … less they should be converted and their sins be forgiven” (paraphrased) --the Biblical admittance of the adumbration of parables. Not exactly forthrightness.

[cricket]

Norman, Robert (and anyone else interested):

One of the greatest sermons ever preached

The part of this sermon that relates to the current topic comes near the end of the sermon...in the last 15 minutes or so. He's really a great speaker, though, and the rest of the sermon is worth listening to as well!

Chrys

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Robert,

I don’t mind the disagreement at all. It makes me look more closely at what I am saying and I know your intensions are good. I will share some verses that I have found. I believe they give us a glimpse of why God sends these strong delusions and the 7 last plagues. I knew what I wanted to say I just needed the time and verses to 2nd my thoughts

“Isa 28:21 For the LORD shall rise up as in mount Perazim, he shall be wroth as in the valley of Gibeon that he may do his work, his strange work; and bring to pass his act, his strange act.” Although this verse is not talking specifically about that time of the end, it does reveal that God does do some things that are out of character for Him, at least from our vantage point.

.Joel 2:28”And it shall come to pass afterward, that I will pour out my spirit upon all flesh; and your sons and your daughters shall prophesy, your old men shall dream dreams, your young men shall see visions: 29And also upon the servants and upon the handmaids in those days will I pour out my spirit.”

This is talking about the latter rain before the end of probation and the key here is that God doesn’t only pour out His Spirit on His people, but upon all flesh. The good and the evil but the evil reject His Spirit. After probation closes, God gives them what they want, strong delusions. They don’t want the truth so God honors the wishes. God is not changing His attitude from one of love to hatred here, He is granted their wishes.

119:126. It is time for thee, LORD, to work: for they have made void thy law. I believe this is referring to the end of probation. This is the time where God will do something that has not been seen before. This is not like the time in Egypt. Then it was a matter of worship, “let my people go.” Now it’s the end of the world when all choices have been made. This is God’s time to fulfill His word, vengeance is mine. If someone is told that they will be executed for stealing and they steal, does that make the executioner a murderer or is the thief the one who has committed suicide? So why the extra punishment (plagues)? Read on.

I believe that the 7 last plagues are for our benefit, not for God’s. He knows that they will be destroyed and has no pleasure in their destruction. I’ll explain more in a bit.

Rev 16: 4”And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood. 5And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus. 6For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy. 7And I heard another out of the altar say, Even so, Lord God Almighty, true and righteous are thy judgments.” God has said vengeance is mine I will repay. So here He is doing just that

8”And the fourth angel poured out his vial upon the sun; and power was given unto him to scorch men with fire. 9And men were scorched with great heat, and blasphemed the name of God, which hath power over these plagues: and they repented not to give him glory. 10And the fifth angel poured out his vial upon the seat of the beast; and his kingdom was full of darkness; and they gnawed their tongues for pain, 11And blasphemed the God of heaven because of their pains and their sores, and repented not of their deeds.”

God let’s the wicked suffer these plagues so we can see how they respond. When we are disciplined of God we realize that we have been out of line and that we need to come back to Him. These people however do not repent but blaspheme God. I believe God does this to show us that even though they have been punished they will not change as do His children. They continue to reject the Gospel and if they had the chance they’d kill Christ again. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Even after the 1000 years when the wicked are resurrected what do they do in the end? They gather around the city and try to take it. They are damaged beyond repair for even God. So when He destroys them we know why and we will not have any doubt about His love, mercy and justice. I don't think we could fully understand this if God did not pour out His Spirit on them as well as us and if He didn't pour out His plagues on them. We react one way when the time of trouble is upon us but they react completely different when the plagues are upon them. We will see this contrast and it will strengthen us. We will know that we are His children. They have rejected Him

That in brief is what I have come to understand, but am still open for discussion.

Norman

[LifeHiscost]

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Norman said:

Hi Robert,

That in brief is what I have come to understand, but am still open for discussion.

Norman

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It's the story of the Creator making the universe safe for His children, a Creator who knows the only way it will be safe, and how best to deal with those who wish to set up another government, that the Creator knows if pursued, will destroy both the individuals who desire to submit to the Most High's beneficience, as well as the ones who rise up against the Creator's original plan and who will not back off their determined effort to supplant the original, no matter what happens.

It is a matter of fact that, the creation since the original plan of the Creator was instituted, is caught in the crossfire and only needs to submit to the God and Father Who is love, to receive eternal salvation, safe from all who would make effort to place themselves above He Who has the only perfect plan of eternal life.

[:"red"] "And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely." [/] Revelation 22:17 KJV

[:"red"] "Jesus saith to him, `I am the way, and the truth, and the life, no one doth come unto the Father, if not through me " [/] John 14:6 YLT

[:"red"] "And this is the way to have eternal life--to know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ, the one you sent to earth. " [/] John 17:3 NLT

Keep the faith!

[Robert]

Norman,

Buy the book, "Light on the Dark Side of God" by M.M. Campbell:

web page

By the way, Jack Sequeira fully supports this book (if that means anything). I was told this by the author, Marilyn Campbell. So does Robert J. Wieland; Marvin Moore...just to name a few.

In the meantime I'll give you a few excerpts.

Rob

[Robert]

• Despite the seemingly clear way in which Scripture presents Him, the traditional view of Christianity's God is heavy with ethical problems that have puzzled reasonable men and women from time immemorial. As long as humans have reasoned on the subject of God, they have wondered about His destructive side. Noah's flood, Sodom and Gomorrah, eternal hell fire. . . . How can a God who punishes so cruelly also say: "I have no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but that the wicked turn from his way and live. Turn, turn from your evil ways! For why should you die?" "How can I give you up, Ephraim? How can I hand you over, Israel? . . . My heart churns within Me; My sympathy is stirred." "My heart sobs like a flute for Moab, sobs like a flute for the men of Kirheres; that accumulated treasure all lost" (Ezekiel 33:11; Hosea 11:8; Jeremiah 48:36, JB). Would not humans manifesting this personality split be considered psychotic?

  How can God exercise such "cruel and unusual" punishment as drowning the world, burning cities and the humans in them, and still be considered loving and just, as He and His adherents claim? He extended Himself to the lengths of Calvary to preserve our freedom of choice. But is choice really free, with God standing over us to destroy us if we choose wrong? After enduring the cross to redeem humanity, thus showing His loving character before the universe, why does He, in the end, reverse it all by executing those whose choices He does not like?

  How can a God who kills command His people not to kill; and yet to be like Him? How does the mild and gentle Jesus reflect the character of the "fire-breathing" Old Testament God He came to reveal? Perhaps nothing has contributed more to the advancement of atheism than these perplexing unanswered questions of Christianity.

  The 19th century skeptic, Robert G. Ingersoll, spoke for multitudes through the ages, when he addressed the idea of an eternally burning hell in these words:

  "Infinite punishment is infinite cruelty, endless injustice, immortal meanness. . . ."Christians have placed upon the throne of the universe a God of eternal hate. I cannot worship a being whose vengeance is boundless, whose cruelty shoreless, and whose malice is increased by the agonies he inflicts."

  Those who believe hell eventually burns out still have the problem that an all-wise God, who is more loving than any human, could think of no better way to dispose of sin than to burn sinners, even though they are His children still; the creation of His own hand. If burning humans alive is inherently evil, then would it not be as evil an act for God as it would be for humans? And God, as Christianity wishes to present Him, is not evil. Yet, evil is evil because it is evil. God's alleged participation in it does not sanctify it. The idea of hell fire, to many, constitutes another puzzling piece in Christianity's picture of God.

[Robert]

• The sixth commandment states, "Thou shalt not kill" (Exodus 20:13) or as some Bible translations give it, "Thou shalt not murder". Some have asserted that "murder" is the correct translation. They apparently believe this disproves the position of this book regarding God's character. But does the alternate translation "murder" in the fourth commandment solve anything?

  "Murder" is said to mean the taking of human life in a willful, premeditated way. If Scripture ever depicts God as taking human life in a willful, premeditated way, then the commandment still does not transcribe His character with the word changed to "murder," and this solution flies out the window. Is God ever shown to take human life willfully or premeditatedly? What about Noah's flood? Sodom and Gomorrah? What about hell fire? ....

[Robert]

Norm,

Here's her view on 2 Thessalonians 2:1-12

• Deceived At World's End

  ...When the disciples asked how they might know when His coming was near, Jesus said, "Take heed that no one deceives you." "Many will come in My name, saying, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many." "False prophets will rise up and deceive many. . . . False christs and false prophets will arise and show great signs and wonders, so as to deceive, if possible, even the elect" (Matthew 24: 4,5, 11, 24; Mark 13:5,6).

  Notice in particular the phrase "show great signs and wonders." The deceptions of the last days will be characterized by them.

  Second Thessalonians 2:1-12 is a key Biblical description of the antichrist. Notice verses 3, 9, 10 and 11 in particular.

  Let no one deceive you by any means (v. 3); . . . the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, and with all unrighteous deception (vss. 9, 10); God will send [permit] them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie (v. 11).

  These verses depict the strength of deception in earth's last days. They harmonize with information from the book of Revelation, the Biblical book of the end. Satan, the power behind and working through antichrist, will deceive the whole world (12:9); he will deceive everyone, except those whose names are written in God's book of life (13:8, 14).

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Robert,

I'll chew on this. I don't have much time tonight to reply. I'm still leaning the other way at this point and am praying and studying.

Generally when I get to a topic that I am not too sure about I'll pray and study the Bible alone at first to see what I can find with the Holy Spirit. Then I'll usually go to SOP then to some other books.

I have some verses and thoughts to share with you and when I get it together I'll post it. Thanks for sharing I appreciate it.

Norman

[Derrell M]

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Is God ever shown to take human life willfully or premeditatedly?

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Is there ever an instance shown where God took a life in a manner that was not willful and premeditated?

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Life,

I like the way that was written and the message. With that statement are you stating a view that you support? I didn't catch it if you did. Please let me know what you think about what Robert and I are discussing. I'm interested in what you have to post.

Norman

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

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jasd said:

“>>so seeing they might not perceive, and hearing they might not understand … less they should be converted and their sins be forgiven” <<(paraphrased) --**the Biblical admittance of the adumbration** of parables. ##Not exactly

forthrightness

.##

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Re: >> << I take that as a means used by Jesus with individuals who have already made up their mind to ever find a reason not to accept the plain word of Christ, of which only Jesus or those who walk close enough with Him would be able to know, thus relieving us of an inconsistent view of the character of God, ie: ## ##

[:"red"] "Love... is ever ready to believe the best of every person" [/] 1 Cor 13:7 AMP

[:"red"] "...God is love." [/] 1 John 4:8

Keep looking up!!