Truth of the Matter

[Gail]

Go, Graeme!

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Rahab came to my mind.

Joshua 2: 2 "And it was told the king of Jericho, saying, Behold, there came men in hither to night of the children of Israel to search out the country. 3And the king of Jericho sent unto Rahab, saying, Bring forth the men that are come to thee, which are entered into thine house: for they be come to search out all the country. 4And the woman took the two men, and hid them, and said thus, There came men unto me, but I wist not whence they were: 5And it came to pass about the time of shutting of the gate, when it was dark, that the men went out: whither the men went I wot not: pursue after them quickly; for ye shall overtake them. 6But she had brought them up to the roof of the house, and hid them with the stalks of flax, which she had laid in order upon the roof."

James 2: 25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

Norman

[Robert]

• Hosea 4:1 Listen to the word of the Lord, O sons of Israel, For the Lord has a case against the inhabitants of the land, Because there is no faithfulness or kindness or knowledge of God in the land. 2 There is swearing, deception, murder, stealing, and adultery. They employ violence, so that bloodshed follows bloodshed.

[Robert]

• There came men unto me, but I wist not whence they were: 5 And it came to pass about the time of shutting of the gate, when it was dark, that the men went out

  James 2:25 Likewise also was not Rahab the harlot justified by works, when she had received the messengers, and had sent them out another way?

The fact that Rahab believed was witnessed by her act of saving the messengers....Her actions proved her faith was real, however, we can't say that she was justified by the works of the law because according to the law she lied.

[cricket]

James 2:25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?

Robert, this is a direct quote from the Bible. Are you saying that we can't say "justified by [her] works [of the law]? Or, just that we can't say she was justified by works?

[UpperMidwest]

I agree with you, Fran, that lying is wrong. I'm disgusted by it in all of its shapes and forms.

Unfortunately, as Adventists, we focus our attention on the Sabbath Commandment, because that is the one that defines us. We always point out to strangers how important the word "Remember" is. As in, "Remember the Sabbath Day."

It is equally important to remember that the word "neighbor" appears in one of the Commandments, "Thou shalt not bear false witness against a neighbor." As with the word "Remember," the word "neighbor" is not there by accident, either.

The word "neighbor" is meant to exclude Attila the Hunn, who will never, ever, by any stretch of the imagination, be your neighbor.

When people were in bondage, as the Hebrew people were, Pharoah was not their neighbor, he was their enemy. Enemies, like Pharoah, destroyed people and their children. (That's my definition of an enemy.)

If you were a Negro slave being whipped, beaten or killed, the Master of the Plantation was NOT your neighbor.

As a result, their was every justification for Christians of the 1800s to participate in the Underground Railroad, which got many Negro slaves safely to Canada. Europeans did something similar for Jews, helping many to get to Sweden and other places of safety.

The Lord does not require us to aide or assist or show compassion for a dangerous enemy. That's why I think the word "neighbor" appears in that one Commandment.

Too often, a woman in an abusive relationship remains in that relationship after her husband stops being a "neighbor" and becomes a "non-neighbor." She, under those circumstances is not required to "do unto her husband as she would like him to do unto her." Her job, many times, is to extricate herself from a potentially dangerous situation. But many wives (and husbands) remain in abusive relationships too long under the notion that there is some biblical requirement to feed and clothe the enemy.

Other than that one exception regarding "neighbors," I'm in complete agreement with you, Fran, that lying is a very deadly sin and should never, ever, be tolerated in the Church.

[cricket]

To quote the title of a VeggieTales production, "Are You My Neighbor?"

[UpperMidwest]

Or Mr. Rogers,

"Won't you be my neighbor?"

[Gail]

I miss Mr. Rogers...

<img src="/ubbtreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

[Robert]

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Christine Wall said:

James 2:25 And in the same way was not also Rahab the harlot justified by works when she received the messengers and sent them out another way?

Robert, this is a direct quote from the Bible. Are you saying that we can't say "justified by

[her] works [of the law]

? Or, just that we can't say she was justified by works?

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Her faith worked....She did something, even though it was in principle against the law.

See if you can recognize the problem in the paradox between the following two statements...one from James the other from Paul:

• You see that a person is justified by what he does and not by faith alone. [NIV]

  For we maintain that a man is justified by faith apart from works of the Law. [NASB]

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Lawbert,

What you just posted, was something like what I posted a while ago.

This is what I posted.

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The thought that I've come to is that James is telling them to reveal their faith by their works, not so much in order to be justified, they already were by grace, by trust and by faith; which opened them to receive the perfect gift of the Holy Spirit.

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My point was, as I'm sure you know, that Rahab lied and look at what the Bible says about her in Hebrews.

Norman

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Christine,

Here's another thought,

2 Thess 2: 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

Now that is interesting. God is doing this, yet commands that no one should bear false witness against his neighbor. God has always asked us to be like Him and we want to be but what about this?. Think this through. What think ye?

Norman

[cricket]

Well, first I'm examining the cause:

11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie: 12 That they all might be damned who believed not the truth, but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

This means [to me, anyway] that these people all had a choice to believe in the truth, but turned away from it. Upon closer examination, it does say that God shall send them "strong delusion"; contrariwise, it does not say that God shall send them the lies in which to believe. In other words, He's not feeding them the lie; He's allowing them to believe the lies they've already embraced.

It is somewhat analogous to my motherly response of, "Fine. Believe what you want! Everything I say is 'wrong.'" Then, I sit back and watch my children learn the mistakes on their own.

[Robert]

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Norman said:

Hi Christine,

Here's another thought,

2 Thess 2: 11 And for this cause God shall send them strong delusion, that they should believe a lie:

Now that is interesting. God is doing this, yet commands that no one should bear false witness against his neighbor.

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Norman....I see that this is addressed to Christine, so I won't give the answer but I will give the full context:

• 2 Thess 2:9 The coming of the lawless one by the activity of Satan will be with all power and with pretended signs and wonders, 10 and with all wicked deception for those who are to perish, because they refused to love the truth and so be saved.

  11 Therefore God sends upon them a strong delusion, to make them believe what is false, 12 so that all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.

[:"red"]Is it God who deceives [see verse 11] or is it "the lawless one" who brings "all wicked deception" [see verse 10]?[/]

[cricket]

Looks like we may need to consult a lexicon. There are several ways to read this text--depending on which version of the Bible is read.

[Robert]

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Robert said:

[:"red"]Is it God who deceives [see verse 11] or is it "the lawless one" who brings "all wicked deception" [see verse 10]?[/]

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Oh well, Christine answered....Do you guys see my point?

It is clearly "the lawless one" who brings "ALL wicked deception"! Then why does God claim he does it? Well, why did God claim that He killed King Saul [see 1 Chronicles 10:13,14] when clearly Saul killed himself? [see 1 Chronicles 10:4,5]

That comes back to the fact that God depicts Himself as doing what He does not prevent when unbelief is persistently cherished.

Remember Job?

Who caused his troubles?

Clearly Satan: "And the LORD said unto Satan, Behold, all that he hath is in thy power....[Job 1:12]

Who got the blame?

Clearly God: "While he [a messenger] was still speaking, another messenger came and said, “The fire of God fell from the sky and burned up the sheep and the servants, and I am the only one who has escaped to tell you!” [verse 16]

Remember what the Bible says of Satan: "And he [the lamb like beast (through Satan)] performed great and miraculous signs, even causing fire to come down from heaven to earth in full view of men.

Something to think about.... :2cents:

[cricket]

[:"brown"] Oh well, Christine answered....[/]

Oops! Sorry, Robert.

[Robert]

I, by God's grace, am very careful what I lay at the door of the Lord. Case in point:

• Numbers 12:1 Then Miriam and Aaron spoke against Moses because of the Cushite woman whom he had married (for he had married a Cushite woman);

As far as I know what was said is not recorded, but in my estimation [knowing God's patience] Miriam's and Aaron's issue must have been a persistent problem.

BTW, Moses' wife was essentially a black woman....It's funny how a white man can marry an Asian woman, an Indian, etc., etc, but marry a black woman and you've committed some terrible sin. That's still how it is in the South although it’s getting better....

Maybe Miriam and Aaron were practicing racism...I don't know, but notice when Miriam's troubles begin:

• 2 and they said, “Has the Lord indeed spoken only through Moses? Has He not spoken through us as well?”

Not only were they being racists, but they were also attacking Moses!

• And the Lord heard it. 3 (Now the man Moses was very humble, more than any man who was on the face of the earth.) 4 And suddenly the Lord said to Moses and Aaron and to Miriam, “You three come out to the tent of meeting.” So the three of them came out. 5 Then the Lord came down in a pillar of cloud and stood at the doorway of the tent, and He called Aaron and Miriam. When they had both come forward, 6 He said,

  “Hear now My words: If there is a prophet among you,

  I, the Lord, shall make Myself known to him in a vision.

  I shall speak with him in a dream.

  7 “Not so, with My servant Moses, He is faithful in all My household; 8 With him I speak face to face, Even openly, and not in dark sayings, And he beholds the form of the Lord.

  Why then were you not afraid to speak against My servant, against Moses?”

  9 So the anger of the Lord burned against them [:"red"]and He departed [:"black"].

Please note God departs...He goes bye, bye....Now what?

• 10 But when the cloud had withdrawn from over the tent, behold, Miriam was leprous, as white as snow

Did God do this? From my understanding of God's character I would have to say absolutely not! Then what happened?

Well, the Bible doesn't give the details, but we know that God is the author of health & life, and without Him there's disease and death.

Only when God departed from Miriam did she become leprous....Perhaps Miriam had this disease all along, but God had restrained it???

When God, who is love, departed - His protection went with Him. That's how I see it....

The point is God is righteous....We [i say this to everyone] shouldn't accuse God of sin and evil...or lying for that matter.

[Robert]

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Christine Wall said:

[:"brown"] Oh well, Christine answered....[/]

Oops! Sorry, Robert.

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No..no, Norman's post was addressed to you. I just saw that you answered, so I felt after that I could reply to Norman....That's all. No apology needed....

Rob

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Robert,

I was going to post all those verses, but didn't because the verse makes it clear as to who is sending the strong delusion.

I will bereanize it and see what comes of this. I have thought that before but I don't remember what I concluded.

Norman

[Robert]

Here's another one, more on the topic:

• 20 And the LORD said, Who shall persuade Ahab, that he may go up and fall at Ramothgilead?.... 21 And there came forth a spirit, and stood before the LORD, and said, I will persuade him. 22 And the LORD said unto him, Wherewith? And he said, I will go forth, and I will be a lying spirit in the mouth of all his prophets.

  And he said, Thou shalt persuade him, and prevail also: go forth, and do so. 23 Now therefore, behold, the LORD hath put a lying spirit in the mouth of all these thy prophets. (1 Kings 22:20-23).

  It is impossible for God to lie . . . God . . . cannot lie (Hebrews 6:18; Titus 1:2).

[benherndon]

I notice, Robert, that you 'correct' the OT with the NT. OT people had no time on this earth with God other than the very short time Moses had. NT authors spent years with him in daily routine and personally close settings. They are the ones to 'listen to'. Remember the Transfiguration. Moses (representing 'the Law') and Elijah (representing the prophets) were 'disappeared' when the 'cloud' was gone. Then, the 'voice' from Heaven said, "THIS IS MY SON IN WHOM I AM WELL PLEASED. LISTEN TO HIM!" (Big difference in the correcting perception compared to the old 'perception' of the OT writers!)

Hmmm! (Amen, anybody? No, you say? Well read the NT over and over and think about it deeply as you read. Give the NT your supreme spiritual authority! It alone is the basis of Christianity. The OT is the basis of Judaism---it is NOT the basis of Christianity.)

THIMK!

Ben

[LifeHiscost]

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Paula said:

It is very difficult to know how to act within these gray areas...

So what do you guys think?

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It is true there are many different circumstances where individuals who were servants of the Most High, lied for the purpose of protecting others (sometimes themselves).

However never is it said the Holy Spirit gave them instructions to lie.

Just as Peter said, 'Though all these others betray you, I shall not', or words to that effect, it seems never safe to say what we would do ourselves, if we were faced with the same circumstances as another, for we really don't know without doubt.

[:"red"] "The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?" [/]

Jeremiah 17:9 KJV

God's Laws are principles absolute and inviolate. The fact that from Lucifer on down to the last person born of this day and age, don't find it in their heart to trust God for security without bending the rules when deemed necessary, does not indicate that a perfect universe will have the same stumbling behaviour.

Though this thread is not focused on salvation, it seems right to assume that purposefully trusting in deception does not lead anyone closer to security and saving grace.

[:"red"] "For judgment will be merciless to one who has shown no mercy; mercy triumphs over judgment. " [/] James 2:13 NASB

[:"red"] "No temptation has overtaken you but such as is common to man; and God is faithful, who will not allow you to be tempted beyond what you are able, but with the temptation will provide the way of escape also, so that you will be able to endure it." [/] 1 Cor 10:13 NASB

How one behaves in a critical circumstance, re: to one's own safety or to the protection of another, probably depends more on how far our personal sense of God's capabilities in following His instructions prompts us, as opposed to whether His perfect will is followed.

" O' what a tangled web we weave, when first we practice to deceive."

[:"red"] "Now glory be to God! By his mighty power at work within us, he is able to accomplish infinitely more than we would ever dare to ask or hope." [/] Eph 3:20 NLT

Lord save me from my own desire to save myself by deceit.

Keep looking up!!

[LifeHiscost]

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UpperMidwest said:

The Ten Commandments are never a gray area if you can identify the issue and the Commandment involved.U.M.

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And actually, the Lord's instruction was not, "Thou shalt not lie! It was, [:"red"] Thou shalt not bear false witness against thy neighbor..." [/] To tell someone a misleading statement in order to preserve the life of your neighbor not only proves to be not against your neighbor but preserves the evil doer of committing wickedness against their neighbor.

[:"red"] "If anyone hears My sayings and does not keep them, I do not judge him; for I did not come to judge the world, but to save the world."[/] John 12:47 NASB

[:"red"] "God is Love!" [/]

[LifeHiscost]

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Bravus said:

life...more important than truth.

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[:"red"] "Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth , and the life : no man cometh unto the Father, but by me." [/] John 14:6 KJV Bold mine LHC

Seems to me they are of equal importance spiritually.

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the Father of Lies.

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As an

I would guess you probably don't identify your earthly father with capital letters, except his name. Is there some reason why you identify the prince of darkness with that indication. (picky, picky, picky

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Do you tell someone about the defects of the car you're trying to sell them?

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I know this wasn't asked of me, but found it necessary to give personal testimony. By the grace of God, yes I would! I'm selling my property now and just lost a buyer because I told the truth, knowing it was a probability. When we follow the dictates of our conscience for the sake of giving honor to the Lord of glory, we will in due time, gain far more than we have temporarily lost.

I haven't reached the goal below yet, but it is a goal worth striving for.

[:"red"] "More than that, I count all things to be loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and count them but rubbish so that I may gain Christ, " [/] Philippians 3:8 NASB

Keep the faith!