Vicarius Filii Dei and 666 - a fabrication?

[Bravus]

A fascinating series of exchanges: http://biblelight.net/envoy.htm

[Windsor]

If Vicarius Filii Dei was the only reason the papacy was seen as playing a role in Revelation, that we would be in trouble. However, it isn't, and I can only remember one preacher in the last 10 years who promoted Vicarius Filii Dei = 666.

[ClubV12]

I've now been to two evangelistic campaigns. One that resulted in my eventually joining the Church, six months or more later. And the second one still in progress at my local Church. Both times this example was used, it's the only time I've ever heard anybody use it or talk about it in any depth.

Hey Bravus, you remember that thing about Lincoln and Kennedy with all the numbers and how they matched each other so perfectly? That was popular some years ago. One of those, "Man that is spooky" sort of deals. SO many different numbers line up perfectly between the two men. I forget what the whole point of that exercise was, but I sure remember being impressed with the work that went into figuring out those numbers. Other than a passing, "Well, that was interesting, so whats for lunch?" was about as seriously as I took it.

The same could be said for the 666 deal when I first heard it, not impressed. In fact, I thought of Lincoln and Kennedy and almost blew off the evangelist for using such an example! Well, maybe theres something to it, maybe not.

Like Windsor, eventually I came to the conclusion Roman Power, Catholic Church, BEAST! Gotta be, history supports the prophecy. Evidence is pretty solid.

666? Yeah, OK, so, whats for lunch? :)

[Bravus]

Slightly amusingly: ELLEN GOVLD VVHITE = L+L+V+L+D+V+V+I = 666 (same rules)

[Bravus]

As ever, I'll just be over here, caring about what's true...

[ClubV12]

Good call.

Curious about that old Lincoln/Kennedy thing, I SNOPED it out. Turns out it was false.

I KNEW it! I just KNEW it!

As to the 666 thing, eh, might be something there, whatever...

Yeah that Ellen Gould White counting up to 666, well how about that! I had to chuckle.

[Gibs]

Remember the Papacy is only ONE head of the beast, that old rascal has 6 others plus 10 horns now in the present NWO system which now has the crowns, that is the king power and so means the religious systems of the world don't have the ruling power as in in the OWO when the heads had the crowns, RE 12:3

Notice this verse,

Re 13:3 And I saw "one" of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: "AND ALL THE WORLD WONDERED AFTER THE BEAST".

Then did you notice the whole world wonders after the beast and not the wounded head which we know to be the Papacy!

Dear ones, the beast is far greater than the Papacy. The "horns" of the beast are doing the rule in this world big time these days.

1Jo 4:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them.

1Jo 4:6 We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

I did a little research on this, because it is a subject seldom talked about. I was surprised to see that it was controversial very early on in our Church. James White certainly had reservations, declaring that "wise man" that Revelation talks about as understanding it, isn't him! And asking for that "wise man" to please come forward.

Uriah Smith noted that the "best thing he had seen on the issue" was that forged document from Constantine. He statement leads me to believe he himself was not entirely convinced, like the brethren of his time, still trying to figure out the unknown.

Which is where we are STILL at today! We, the Church, does not have unified idea of what 666 means or how to define it. Still waiting for that "wise man" to come forward. Early on, the Church asked people to stop using the 666 popular Pope's title example. But people still did, still do. Sigh...

[Gibs]

It may be pretty easy to figure out if one takes note of this statement by EGW.

She only quotes Re 13:13-17 here, but after her statement I have a consideration for all,

" In Revelation we read concerning Satan: "And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men, and deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live. And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed. And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads: and that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name" (Revelation 13:13-17). . . . {3SM 393.1}

The consideration is this, see if you can separate the context of these verses,

Re 13:11 ¶ And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

Re 13:12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

Re 13:13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

Re 13:14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

Re 13:15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

Re 13:16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

Re 13:17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

Re 13:18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

Satan is the man we are looking for, the 666, EGW states it is Satan in verses 13-17 so all we have to do is see the ends are connected, 11 and 12 to 13 and 18 to 17,

I would say she solved the puzzle but didn't make an issue of it for obvious reasons.

Eze 28:13 Thou hast been in Eden the garden of God; every precious stone was thy covering, the sardius, topaz, and the diamond, the beryl, the onyx, and the jasper, the sapphire, the emerald, and the carbuncle, and gold: the workmanship of thy tabrets and of thy pipes was prepared in thee in the day that thou wast created.

Eze 28:9 Wilt thou yet say before him that slayeth thee, I am God? but thou shalt be a man, and no God, in the hand of him that slayeth thee.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[ClubV12]

So,,, what does 666 mean Gibs? We know the beast is the Catholic Church, thats not the question. The question is: What does the 666 stand for? Some thought it might be 666 divisions of world Churches. Maybe it's the 666th house the Pope lived in? Maybe it's the number of pairs of shoes he owns?

[JoeMo]

the "666 = Vicarious Filii Dei" to my knowlwdge has been debunked and exposed as a fraudulent accusation. I think the Catholic Church at one time may have threatened Jan Marcussen and/or the denomination with a lawsuit if they did not retract this accusation (this statement is based on rumor and not fact). As a former catholic, I can tell you that the pope's title is "Vicar of Christ; not "Vicar of the Son of God"; and neither title is engraved in his miter. Furthermore, 2John defines the antichrist as someone who denies that Christ came in the flesh. Neither the papacy nor the catholic church ever did that.

Here's a wild 666 interpretation. Goliath (IMO a remnant of the Nephilim described in Genesis 6) had 6 fingers; 6 toes, and was 6 cubits tall - 6-6-6! Could the antichrist be a 'resurrected" Nephilim? I don't know what that would look like; and I ain't saying that's the truth; but hey - it makes at least as much sense as the Pope.

[Gibs]

This may help, the Greek dictionary of the term 666,

Strong's Greek Dictionary

5516. chi xi stigma

cxV chi xi stigma khee xee stig'-ma

the 22nd, 14th and an obsolete letter (4742 as a cross) of the Greek alphabet (intermediate between the 5th and 6th), used as numbers; denoting respectively 600, 60 and 6; 666 as a numeral:--six hundred threescore and six.

See Greek 4742

There is an answer and I find some may have it very close but I don't at the time have what I find to be a valid one to post. It is a complex study and many Christians I believe would be set against the truth of it if offered.

OK, folks work on it.

And ClubV12, not all of us find the Papacy to be the beast but only one of the heads of the great beast system of this world that Satan has instituted. I am one of those and strongly.

1Jo 4:4 ¶ Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.

[Bravus]

616 has also been touted as a more accurate translation of the passage in question...

[Stan]

What is 666? Add up all the roman numbers to 500

1

V

X

L

C

D

---

666

gotta mean something.

[ClubV12]

Gibs, myself I see the DAUGHTERS of the beast as more applicable to the end time events. Those right wing nut gun toting professed Christians who will move, for God and Country, to take us back to a higher moral plane. Or shoot us if don't get on board...

The exact wording will differ here and there, but the basic premise is sound. It's the devil behind the curtain.

Catholic Church, certainly. ALL Sunday keeping Churches since 1844 (the daughters)? No question. Image and mark? We know Sabbath vs Sunday will be the final test for mankind, so thats close enough.

Can't be 616 Bravus, those numbers don't work out for Ellen Gould White. 666 works out for NERO though! Seems to me I read the KJV incorrectly used the word "man", it should be some other term that escapes me right now.

[M. T. Cross]

http://ca.sports.yahoo.com/blogs/highsch...-111318529.html

[wendys]

Look at this: http://www.666man.net

[ClubV12]

wendys, I've visited that 666man site a number of times. I do believe that fellow has a very good handle on many points of Adventist doctrine! I particularly like and agree with how he explains and handles the seven trumpets. He, James White and myself concur. Stephen Bohr, not so much. While I appreciate Bohrs ministry, I don't agree with several of his various conclusions.

[Gerr]

' date=' 2John defines the antichrist as someone who denies that Christ came in the flesh. Neither the papacy nor the catholic church ever did that.[/q1uote']

What does it mean to deny that Jesus came in the flesh? Is it merely a denial of the incarnation? Or that He was flesh & blood? That would be too obvious. Lucifer, the arch-deceiver is more subtle than that! How about denying that His offering in the flesh is not sufficient as a "once for all" offering and instead sacrifice Him again and again in the mass?

[phkrause]

I've also heard that 666 represents the unholy trinity. As 777 represents the Holy Trinity. Everything that God has, Satan has his counterfeit.

[Kevin H]

Another issue is that 666 is the number of the full name of Nero (and some texts have 616, which is the number of the shortened form of Nero). Part of what 666 means is a revival of the Nero persecution; just as the Papacy revived the Nero persecution during the dark ages.

[wendys]

Revelation 13:18 says that the number 666 is the number of the beast and the number of a man. Beasts are kings (Daniel 7:17), so the number also being that of a man means it must be the number of the king of the beast who is also a man. So, we are talking about the number of the human leader of a power. This seems to rule out ordinary people such as Ellen White (who certainly was not a man!) and anyone else not the leader of a power.

[Gregory Matthews]

I find it interesting that the Donation of Constantineis cited as an authority. Well, the Donation of Constantine is well known as a forgery and should never be used as a valid authority.

Whatever we may say about the Roman Catholic Church that is accurate, we are often walking on water when we start talking about 666.

[wendys]

There is no doubt that the Catholic Church used the document as if it were legitimate until it was discovered to be a fraud. Then they tried denial, but the truth came out no matter. Rulers of those times believed it to be legitimate, so it was acted upon as if it were a legitimate document. But a fraud does not make a right. They seemed to forget that fact. Consequently, the facts are that anything derived from the document is not truthful. But people relied upon it as if it were the truth and I think that God has used that to help point in the right direction of identifying the beast.

Edited to correct a spelling error.

[ClubV12]

Thats a reasonable point wendys, I hadn't considered it. I assume by the time Uriah Smith, James White, etc. came on the scene they would have known by then it was a forgery.

As it concerns Uriah Smith, I've heard several different comments attributed to him in ways that are a bit misleading. This being one. As I recall his statement was "the best evidence he had seen" at that point. And James recognized the issue was far from settled. So the whole 666 thing was in flux with our pioneers at least to some degree even then.