I'm thinking of buying a gun?

[Gregory Matthews]

I began my post intending to tell you that the Biblical recordnever reports that Christ used a weapon. Then, while writing I thought of the whip thing.

[Bravus]

The lethal/non-lethal distinction is not a trivial one here.

I'm afraid this is one of those examples where, once having made up one's mind, it's possible to find proof texts for pretty much any position. That's one reason I went with the practical approach.

[Amelia]

I was curious so I searched. Curious to see if Jesus use of the whip was only for the animals. But in all the bible versions I looked at, no separation was made between man and animal. Just imagine how much energy you would have to put into a whip to get a horde of people, money changers and animals moving? I think this is the only time Jesus "attacked" others in defence of His Fathers House.

[Robert]

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Amelia said:

Seems Jesus used the whip not only on the animals but the people too.

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That's an assumption....Like I said, Jesus made a whip, but we have no record that He used it on anyone; indeed, He likely used it to herd the cattle and sheep, and the humans merely swept out with the flow.

Jesus healed the ear of Malchus, the high priest's servant, gently rebuking Peter who had severed it with a sword, saying, "Put up again thy sword. . . . All they that take the sword shall perish with the sword" (Matthew 26:52, KJV; also Revelation 13:10).

"Love your enemies," He said. "Bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you." Why? "That you may be sons of your Father in heaven" (Matthew 5:44,45,). God the Father, Creator of the universe, as Jesus consistently presents Him, does not behave toward His enemies as other portions of Scripture seem to say. In the face of such apparent contradictions, we hear God saying, "Dig a little deeper in the word."

[Amelia]

Not really making an assumption. Only going by how the verse reads.

[Robert]

“Men never do evil so completely and cheerfully as when they do it from religious conviction” (Blaise Pascal).

"An eye for an eye makes the whole world blind" (Mahatma Gandhi).

[Robert]

You are isolating one verse, which isn't fully clear, and placing upon Jesus an attribute that I cannot find in those clear examples. I still maintain that Jesus was driving out the animals and the moneychangers were simply driven out by the animals fleeing....

Now how did Jesus react to bad situations?

1 Peter 2:21 To this you were called, because Christ suffered for you, leaving you an example, that you should follow in his steps....

23 When they hurled their insults at him, he warned them of the consequences of their actions; when he suffered at their hands, He used deadly force.

Didn't you know that Jesus only pretended to be a carpenter's son? Actually He was the Navy Seal of His day. Trained in Martial arts and hours of sword time, Jesus kicked butt daily!

Oh, wrong Jesus....Let's read the real account:

• 23 When they hurled their insults at him, he did not retaliate; when he suffered, he made no threats. Instead, he entrusted himself to him who judges justly.

[Naomi]

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aldona said:

Just tagging on here...

...have come straight from the Quaker forum so this whole discussion looks really surreal...

...especially seeing the signature line from Mother Teresa ("You know my God. My God is love.") right after a discussion on how to be sure you can pull the trigger and shoot to kill...

(not picking on Naomi, it was just the placement of the two subjects side-by-side that made my brain explode).

I think I've gotta go drink some stronger coffee. <img src="/ubbtreads/images/graemlins/sad25.gif" alt="" />

aldona

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LOL Aldona, I wondered if anyone would question whether or not I could pull the trigger and shoot to kill ... I didnot comment on me personally. I was making a point that if one should purchase a gun, one should be thoroughly versed in the mechanics and use of a gun. And, to be really, really sure that if necessary you could actually use it.

What I did not say is that while I know well how to use several types of guns and own some (mostly inherited) I do not keep one anyplace except in a locked gun cabinet ... with individual locks on each. No ammunition is stored in the area where the guns are stored.

And, the counter to that is "The unloaded is always the gun that kills." They are dangerous and should always be handled with care.

Naomi

[Naomi]

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Christine Wall said:

Well, when our's is disabled, it sends a message directly to the police. They arrive here in less than 3 minutes. It's happened to us 3 times already!

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In most cases that will occur. However, there are people who understand the "mechanics" of the electronics of the system and can "loop" around the panic alert.

[jasd]

Jn 18:11 Then said Jesus unto Peter,

[:"red"]Put up thy sword into the sheath:[/]

Where did Jesus tell St Peter to put the sword? [:"red"]“…into the sheath:”[/]

Why did He not instead say, “Forbear! Forbear! that such evil shouldest be thine! In haste and secret ought its discard be; have I not suffered by example that thou mightest attest that which thou didst learn of me?”

And why was St Peter not to use his sword? because…

[:"red"]the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?[/]

That which was the perfecting of Christ is not exactly that which is the perfecting of ourselves. The distinction has been made on these boards that our perfection is “in Christ” -- not of our own doing.

If the argument that Christ is our example … we ought able to preach deliverance to the poor; to heal the broken-hearted; to preach deliverance to the captives; and recovering of sight to the blind; to set at liberty them that are bruised... never mind raising the dead.

The ‘Christ our example’ is somewhat self-limiting in scope. Per:

By attestation of the many who’ve made a career of ‘living by the sword’ and have survived to enjoy the sunset of their years… we know that Christ was not coining an axiom but was more probably utilizing an adage; if axiomatic, it puts the onus ‘lie’ -- to Him.

What most forcefully emerges in this instance is the thought that one who too readily resorts to the sword, rather than employing discretion in its use -- will die from that indiscretion. Jesus seems, by His statement,

to be advancing measured and well-tempered judgement in contrast to recklessness.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Lazarus, (Iwas going to post this last night but our ISP was down)

I second Christine's thought. I have been in the security system field for about 6 years now and there are many things you can do to help you protect your family. I would get a security system with a backup radio in case someone cuts your phone line. That way you'll have a self contained system that will send out a signal whether or not you have phone service or power. If at all possible get a Honeywell system (formally Ademco) they're about the best on the market and reliable)

Depending on your windows you can use window pins for wood and sliding window clamps for plastic and metal windows. These (one per side) will prevent your windows from being pried open. The latches on most windows will not hold under the pressure of a crowbar. Also get motion activated outside flood lights.

If you choose to use window sensors do not pay more then $30.00 per window (Some will charge you $70.00.) You can get Glass break detectors (Good if you have French doors), pet immune Motion detectors, Shock sensors etc. Just get a good reputable company (Not large but medium) and make sure they don't charge you more than $20.00 per month for UL monitoring. Or if you want to you can email me and I can give you my phone # so you can call me and I will suggest what you should get for your home. Also, if you have irreplaceable property in your home, I would consider adding smoke detectors to your system. Also get an exterior siren that screams, "There is an intruder in the house" and keeps repeating that till the alarm resets or is shut off. Of course, make sure you don't accidentally set it off too often.

Camera systems - 4 Outdoor cameras, 1 DVR with built in CDRW and a monitor. (CDRWs are great because if you have to use what you have recorded in court, they can use the CDRW. Otherwise they may have to hold you DVR for evidence)

If you're a handyman you can get systems like that at Sam’s club for about $600 - $1000. Some of them allow you to view your home from a remote location, like work or any place that you have access to internet.

There is another feature that you can have set up for the security system. Have them send a signal to your cell phone when your alarm goes off. Also, if you have the proper cell phone you can actually have video sent to your cell phone when someone crosses in front of the cameras. But the greatest thing about cameras is that you can see what's going on outside your house while you’re in it. So if someone is outside trying to get in, you can be prepared. Alarm systems alone are ok, but they are only useful after someone has kicked in a door or pried open or broke a window or is in your house. You want to know what’s going on before they get in.

As for a gun that's totally your choice, we don't have one and won't get one. I know that I would have a hard time dealing with the fact that I had to kill someone to protect myself, even if I was in the right. (Thats just the way I am) If I was going to be killed or have to kill to survive, that's a tough question to answer. I would like to think that I would rather be killed than to kill. But this heart of mine I can not trust and I don't know what I would really do under the threat. When it comes to my family, it would not be a hard choice for me to defend them.

If you haven’t done so, dedicate your home and family to God for His protection. Gather your family and pray, make it a time to remember, sort of a celebration.

Sincerely,

In Christ,

Norman

[lazarus]

So far I have several options

1. A whip!

2. A sword!

3. Gun's of various caliber's

4. An alarm system linked to the police

5. A dog.

6. The Power and protection of God. (last but not least)

My brother used to carry a gun. He lived for a time in a carribean country that had a very scary reputation for violence. I was very dismayed when I discovered he had it. He said he bought it when 4 members of a family were shot dead in a house about a block away. He lived in a very exclusive neighbourhood at the time. We spent some time with him about 3mths after he bought it

It was about 2 days before New Years Eve I was watching a movie in the main room of the house. It was about 1 am. My wife, then fiance was asleep in her room.

I heard noises. The three guard dogs suddenly got to their feet and began to stare at the gated entrance that I could not see from where I was. That puzzled me becasue they usually scamper to the gate barking as soon as somebody arrives.

My very first thought was "I wish I had my brother's gun". I wanted to protect my fiance. That shocked me because before that time I was very anti-gun.

Nothing happened. The dogs trotted off to the gate, had a look and came back to their usual spot.

Several years later I have 1 wife and 2 kids (youngest 15 mths). I several pastor friends who have shotguns, baseball bats, SDA Bible Commentaries (volume 3 in particular) above the door ready for use.

If some lowlife thug breaks into my house I'm not going to offer him a Steps to Christ. On second thoughts I might, when I visit him in hospital!

I'm not trying to be smart but just being honest. My guess is David, Solomon, Abraham, and Joshua wouldn't think twice about using a weapon to defend themselves or their families.

You may not believe this, but If lived alone I wouldn't even think about havinga weapon. If it were me alone facing an intruder I would try my best to be non-violent. That fact that I have a wife and two young children makes all the difference. I have to defend them!

[lazarus]

Margaret Gray said:

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Did you wake up this morning with a blue moon in your eye?

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what do u mean?

[Robert]

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jasd said:

And why was St Peter not to use his sword? because…

[:"red"]the cup which my Father hath given me, shall I not drink it?[/]

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John 7:30 So they sought to arrest him; but no one laid hands on him, because his hour had not yet come.

According to your limited logic I should assume that Christ and/or His disciples had a right to use deadly force to keep Him from being arrested since "His hour had not yet come"! But I can't find where that happened.

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If the argument that Christ is our example … we ought able to preach deliverance to the poor; to heal the broken-hearted; to preach deliverance to the captives; and recovering of sight to the blind; to set at liberty them that are bruised... never mind raising the dead.

---

Sorry, you are adding to scripture. My quote from Peter didn't state this....

Let's review that quote once again:

• "20 ...if when you do what is right and suffer for it you patiently endure it, this finds favor with God. 21 For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example [i.e., of non-violence] for you to follow in His steps, 22 who committed no sin, nor was any deceit found in His mouth; 23 and while being reviled, He did not revile in return; while suffering, He uttered no threats, but kept entrusting Himself to Him who judges righteously.....

[Robert]

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My very first thought was "I wish I had my brother's gun". I wanted to protect my fiancée. That shocked me because before that time I was very anti-gun.

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Assuming the perpetrator doesn't have a weapon, you might have the edge, but assuming he does...well, he has the edge.

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Several years later I have 1 wife and 2 kids (youngest 15 mths). I several pastor friends who have shotguns, baseball bats, SDA Bible Commentaries (volume 3 in particular) above the door ready for use.

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Let's face it...because of legalism, Adventists are afraid to die. They don't have the assurance of eternal life by faith alone....Hence they fear they are not ready to go to sleep. So your comment of Pastors having guns doesn't surprise me, nevertheless, these men aren't your example...Christ is.

Yes, a lot of the Old Testament people used violence to protect themselves, but just because God was quite on this subject doesn't mean He condoned the use of violence. You must remember that both polygamy and slavery were also practiced; yet we find God quite on these subjects also. Does this mean He approved? Absolutely not....

A gun is no guarantee that your life will be preserved, but if you use it be sure the bad guy will try to take you down also....It might make your situation worse!

Food for thought.

Rob

[Robert]

Let me give you some insight to Christ's mind:

• Jesus replied: My kingdom is not of this world: if my kingdom were of this world, then would my servants fight, that I should not be delivered to the Jews: but now is my kingdom not from hence..

You can interpret this in two ways:

1] If this world were Christ's kingdom His servants would have justification to fight.

2] If Christ's kingdom were based on the principles of "this world" then Christ's servants would have cause to fight.

Of course Christ's character fits the last interpretation! But even more we must understand what Christ meant by "this world" or "the world."

First of all who is the one whom presides over this world?

1 John 5:19 "the whole world is under the control of the evil one."

Luke 4:5 And the devil took him [Jesus] up, and showed him all the kingdoms of the world in a moment of time, 6 and said to him, “To you I will give all this authority and their glory; for it has been delivered to me, and I give it to whom I will.

Okay, clearly Satan's principle runs throughout "the kingdoms of this world." And what are those principles?

Well, whatever these principles, Satan couldn't charge Christ with self-love:

[Christ speaking] "...for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me."

In Christ's life Satan found nothing in common with the principles he has imbued into this world. Now what are those principles:

2 John 2:6 For everything in the world—the desires of sinful man- the lust of his eyes and the boasting of what he has and does—comes not from the Father but from the world.

James 4:1 What causes fights and quarrels among you? Don’t they come from your desires that battle within you?

Face it, this kill or be killed attitude within in us comes from "the world". Satan implanted it into Adam when he fell...and Adam, being our father, past this principle to us.

Just because we "feel" it is our Godly duty to kill when threatened doesn't mean that this desire comes from God. That's because in God's eyes, "that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God."

Why are we so afraid to die? This life is just vapor! Sure, like Christ, let us not seek it, but like Christ let us not return evil for evil just so we can live a few more years in this world under Lucifer's rule.

I say its God's problem....Keep your faith in Him and let Him decide when it's time to go to sleep. In the meantime practice some common sense. God's not against protecting one's life (because even Jesus retreated when threatened), but returning evil for evil is not God's way.

Yes, I will admit (because of the weakness of our flesh) that this is much harder to practice….It is good advice. What we really need to understand is the love of God….That’s what changed the disciples from a bunch of greedy, self-serving men who would fight at the drop of a hat to men that would rather die than to fight back. In the meantime, lazarus, follow your convictions.

Rob

[Amelia]

Explain to me why Jesus would tell the apostles to arm themselves with swords and yet keep them sheathed? To look ready but not act?

[Neil D]

Robs arguements are not lost to me...I do appreciate them and concur with much of what he is attempting to point out.

As for those texts that some are implying that Jesus used whips ON people, I don't think Jesus hit people with the whip. But knocking over money and change table is a definate probability with a whip...

Have you ever seen the damage a whip can do???? The force of a whip, in the proper hands can be pretty devestating...Fileting a person with a whip is NOT an improbablity. I think Jesus would have been careful to make a lot of noise with the whip, which also sounds pret-ty wick-ed.

Having gone thru the martial arts, and been excited about them at one time in my life and studying various diciplines,

all I have to say about that is that they can also do some pret-ty neat damage as well.

Then I became a Christian....Now I rest in the belief that Jesus takes care of me. Where I live has to be presented to Him, and a few other questions, but I believe that God does take care of us. That doesn't mean that we leave our houses/cars unlocked. We are cautious, and prudent, but not careless.

Having shot guns and done some hunting in my lifetime, I have concluded that they are out for me...They are too much of a temptation for power..One of those garden of Eden thingys that you find in a 'God-like" character...being powerful. And I like the feel of a hand gun in my hand...and the capability of killing...having done both...and relizing that it is an evil... sometimes a necessary evil...but an evil nevertheless...

[lazarus]

Christine Wall said:

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Do you already have a home security system in place?

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Sorry Christine, I forgot to reply

The answer is No!

[Gregory Matthews]

Re: "As for those texts that some are implying that Jesus used whips ON people, I don't think Jesus hit people with the whip. But knocking over money and change table is a definate probability with a whip..."

I do not think that we have to say that Jesus acutally whipped people. But the issue was his ownership and use of a weapon.

If I had been sitting at a money changing table in the Temple, and the end of whip came down on the table where I was at I would:

a) Say that a weapon (the whip) had been used.

Say that the weapon had been used aginst me, even if it did not touch me.

If Jesus was at the other end of that whip, I would say:

a) Jesus owned a weapon (The whip.). You see, I do not think that Jesus had rented it for a day from a local rental agency. I have to assume that as he possessed it for that moment it time, for that same moment He owned it.

[Bravus]

Remember that lethal/non-lethal distinction, though? I guess in principle it's *possible* to kill someone with a whip, but you have to try pretty hard and have a fair amount of time available. Remember, this one was made from tied together cords, so it wasn't any leather cat-o-nine-tails with metal bits on the end. It would mostly likely sting, and maybe break the skin, but not do any permanent or fatal damage.

Sorry to go into all that detail, but I just want to forestall the argument that Jesus owning this whip is justification for the ownership of a semi-automatic assault weapon!

[lazarus]

And when he had made a scourge of small cords John 2:15

Clearly, Jesus set out to drive out the animals. The Bible give no record of Him doing harm to individuals.

Would Jesus, on the other hand, have stood by and watched a child murdered or abused when he could have stopped it, by using violence.

Does the Christian police officer have the right to carry a Gun. Should he not depend upon God for His/her protection. When you call the Police to respond to an armed intruder to ask the police to leave their guns at the station?

[Robert]

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Would Jesus, on the other hand, have stood by and watched a child murdered or abused when he could have stopped it, by using violence.

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He's doing that right now as thousands of children are molested & murdered. If God were going to use violence, those perpetrators would fall over dead, but He doesn't....

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Does the Christian police officer have the right to carry a Gun.

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Deep stuff here....I'll quote Paul:

Romans 13:3 For rulers are not a cause of fear for good behavior, but for evil. Do you want to have no fear of authority? Do what is good, and you will have praise from the same; 4 for it [rulers] is a minister of God to you for good. But if you do what is evil, be afraid; for it does not bear the sword for nothing; for it is a minister of God, an avenger who brings wrath upon the one who practices evil.

However, for the believer God's ideal is as follows:

• Luke 6:27 “But I say to you that hear, Love your enemies, do good to those who hate you,

  How?

  28 bless those who curse you, pray for those who abuse you. 29 To him who strikes you on the cheek, offer the other also [in other words don't fight back]; 30 Give to everyone who asks you, and if anyone takes what belongs to you, do not demand it back. 31 Do to others as you would have them do to you.

Please note that according to the law loving your enemies is a requirement for eternal life:

• Matt 5:44 “But I say to you, love your enemies, and pray for those who persecute you 45 in order [conditional] that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. ...48 “Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect."

But seeing that we are not under law, but under grace (because of our human condition)...Paul gives the following advice:

• Romans 12:17 Never pay back evil for evil to anyone. Respect what is right in the sight of all men.

  18 [:"red"]If possible, so far as it depends on you, be at peace with all men.[:"black"]

  19 Never take your own revenge, beloved, but leave room for the wrath of God, for it is written, “Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,” says the Lord. 20 “But if your enemy is hungry, feed him, and if he is thirsty, give him a drink; for in so doing you will heap burning coals upon his head.” 21 Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.

Now I know what you are thinking: "What about God's wrath?" Well, what does "the wrath of God" mean?

Remember when Jesus was overlooking Jerusalem just before His crucifixion? What did He state?

• Matt 23:37 Jerusalem, Jerusalem, who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, the way a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were unwilling. 38 [:"blue"]“Behold, your house is being left to you desolate![:"black"]

Jesus foresaw the destruction of Jerusalem in 70 AD of the unbelieving Jews. Did He do it?

No! The Romans massacred the Jews....But because they [the Jews] persistently and ultimately rejected the Savior, Jesus (as God), He had to abandon them to their own choices. The result? Devastation! The wrath of God must be understood within this context.

This idea can be seen in the following verses:

• Romans 1: 18 For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them....22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures.

  Now how was God's wrath revealed?

  24 Therefore God gave them up to the lusts of their hearts to impurity, that their bodies might be dishonored among them. 25 For they exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served the creature rather than the Creator, who is blessed forever. Amen.

And here's one more:

• "My anger [i.e., God's wrath] shall be aroused against them in that day, and I will forsake them, and I will hide My face from them, and they shall be devoured. And many evils and troubles shall befall them, so that they will say in that day, 'Have not these evils come upon us because our God is not among us?' And I will surely hide My face in that day because of all the [evil] which they have done, in that [they have turned to other gods]" (Deuteronomy 31:17, 18).

[Robert]

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Amelia said:

Explain to me why Jesus would tell the apostles to arm themselves with swords and yet keep them sheathed? To look ready but not act?

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I must fall back to the context:

• Luke 22:24 [:"red"]And there arose also a dispute among them as to which one of them was regarded to be greatest.[:"black"]

  25 And He said to them,

  “The kings of the Gentiles lord it over them; and those who have authority over them are called ‘Benefactors.’

  26 “But not so with you, but let him who is the greatest among you become as the youngest, and the leader as the servant.

  Now Christ uses an example to bring home His point:

  27 “For who is greater, the one who reclines at the table, or the one who serves? Is it not the one who reclines at the table? But I am among you as the one who serves.

  Please note in Christ's kingdom the greatest is the one who lives to serve. He isn't self-seeking!

  28 “And you are those who have stood by Me in My trials; 29 and just as My Father has granted Me a kingdom, I grant you 30 that you may eat and drink at My table in My kingdom, and you will sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel.

  Now Jesus turns to Peter:

  31 “Simon, Simon, behold, Satan has demanded permission to sift you like wheat; 32 but I have prayed for you, that your faith may not fail; and you, once you have been converted strengthen your brothers.”

  And Peter replied:

  33 And he said unto him, [:"red"]Lord, I am ready to go with thee, both into prison, and to death![:"black"]

  34 And He said, “I say to you, Peter, the [censored] will not crow today until you have denied three times that you know Me.”

  35 And He said to them, “When I sent you out without purse and bag and sandals, you did not lack anything, did you?”

  And they said, “No, nothing.”

  36 And He said to them,

  “But now [:"red"] [seeing that you are depending on your abilities [see verses 24 & 33]][:"black"],

  let him who has a purse take it along, likewise also a bag, and let him who has no sword sell his robe and buy one.

  37 “For I tell you, that this which is written must be fulfilled in Me, ‘And He was numbered with transgressors’; for that which refers to Me has its fulfillment.”

  38 And they said, “Lord, look, here are two swords.” And He said to them, “It is enough.”

May God guide your thoughts....

Rob

[bonnie]

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Bravus said:

Remember that lethal/non-lethal distinction, though? I guess in principle it's *possible* to kill someone with a whip, but you have to try pretty hard and have a fair amount of time available. Remember, this one was made from tied together cords, so it wasn't any leather cat-o-nine-tails with metal bits on the end. It would mostly likely sting, and maybe break the skin, but not do any permanent or fatal damage.

Sorry to go into all that detail, but I just want to forestall the argument that Jesus owning this whip is justification for the ownership of a semi-automatic assault weapon!

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Not necessarily directed only to you. If it is wrong for you, (general term) to own a gun to protect your family it is just as wrong to call those that have guns to protect your family and do things you, yourself think a sin.

If your family is threatened, do not call 911. Those at the other end have a habit of coming with guns if the party calling is under assault. I would assume their first hope is to have it end in a non-lethal way, but if not, they are able and willing to use deadly force, at your request I might add, to save you and yours. If you are in danger of being harmed, you know that is a very probable outcome prior to the call, should you have an opportunity to make it. You are calling because they are trained and have guns, guns you refuse to touch. Guns that just may end up saving your life or that of your child.

Anyone here call 911 with the instruction they may come as long as they remember the distinction between lethal/non-lethal? Sorry, if it the life of my child or grandchild at stake do what must be done. Not shoot first, but when non-lethal means fail or that is not an option, save my child or any innocent victim. Or which of you will be the first to raise your hand and say you would willingly sacrifice your child or spouse rather than the authorities you called useing deadly force. Or, would you follow your consceince and not call them because you abhore guns?

Remember, if it is wrong or a sin for you, it is also a sin and maybe a bigger one for you to entice or ask someone else to committ it for you just so your hands remain clean

Bonnie