I'm thinking of buying a gun?

[Dr. Shane]

I think this would be good for you.

[]http://www.armchairempire.com/images/action-figures/Rambo.jpg[/]

Not that I want to

:dead-horse:

[LifeHiscost]

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Robert said:

Do you take these seriously also?

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Yes! What our Father has power to prevent, He takes responsibility for. Using men to prevent evil sometimes means using them to stop other men from committing harm to the elect. The Word that says we can do nothing apart from Jesus means we cannot wage war except given that power. The fact that some men abuse that power after receiving it, does not mean God abdicates His responsibility as the ultimate authority.

That being said, it seems important to recognize that all power abused has only temporary results, such as the part of war controlled by the prince of darkness in the kingdom of heaven.

[:"red"] "The One forming light and creating darkness,

Causing well-being and creating calamity;

I am the LORD who does all these." [/] Isaiah 45:7 NASB

[:"red"] "Then there was war in heaven. Michael and the angels under his command fought the dragon and his angels." [/] Revelation 12:7 NLT

[:"red"] "But he answering said, `It hath been written, Not upon bread alone doth man live, but upon every word coming forth from the mouth of God.'" [/] Matt 4:4 YLT

[there buster]

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The concept is rather simple:

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Yes, the concept is simple. You are not God. You're not even Noah Webster.

You don't get to make up whatever you want. Until you're willing to be subject to the Word, there's no point wasting time.

Eventually, you'll stop trying to make God a liar, I hope.

[there buster]

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Do you take these seriously also?

The anger of the Lord was aroused against Israel and He [God] moved David . . . to . . . number Israel and Judah (2 Sam. 24:2).

So Saul died for his unfaithfulness which he had committed against the Lord, because he did not keep the word of the Lord, and also because he consulted a medium for guidance, but he did not inquire of the Lord; therefore, He [God] killed him, and turned the kingdom over to David, the son of Jesse (1 Chron. 10:13, 14).

And the Lord said to Moses, “When you go back to Egypt, see that you do all those wonders before Pharoah which I have put in your hand. But I [God] will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go” (Exodus 4:21).

“For I [God] will pass through the land of Egypt on that night and will strike all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the Lord” (Exodus 12:12).

I [God] will strike the Shepherd [Jesus]. . . . We esteemed Him [Jesus] stricken, smitten by God (Mark 114:27; Isaiah 53:4).

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I take the texts seriously.

[Robert]

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Ed Dickerson said:

I take the texts seriously....Since I have not the slightest clue what bizarre meaning you may deduce from what otherwise

appear clear and simple words

, there's no point in debating you.

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Clear and simple, huh?

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The anger of the Lord was aroused against Israel and

He [God] moved David . . . to . . . number Israel

and Judah (2 Sam. 24:2).

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• Now Satan stood up against Israel and moved David to number Israel (1 Chron. 21:1)

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So Saul died for his unfaithfulness which he had committed against the Lord, because he did not keep the word of the Lord, and also because he consulted a medium for guidance, but he did not inquire of the Lord; therefore,

He [God] killed him

, and turned the kingdom over to David, the son of Jesse (1 Chron. 10:13, 14).

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• Saul said to his armorbearer, “Draw your sword, and thrust me through with it” . . . But his armorbearer would not. . . . Therefore, Saul took a sword and fell on it. . . . So Saul . . . died (1 Chron. 10:4, 6).

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And the Lord said to Moses, “When you go back to Egypt, see that you do all those wonders before Pharoah which I have put in your hand.

But I [God] will harden his heart

so that he will not let the people go” (Exodus 4:21).

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• But Pharoah hardened his heart at this time also; neither would he let the people go (Exodus 8:14, 32).

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“For I [God] will pass through the land of Egypt on that night

and will strike

all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; against all the gods of Egypt

I will execute judgment

: I am the Lord” (Exodus 12:12).

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• For the Lord will pass through to strike the Egyptians: [in what way?] and when He sees the blood on the doorposts [representing faith in Christ's doing & dying], the Lord will pass over the door and not allow the destroyer [satan] to come into your houses to strike you (Exodus 12:23).

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I [God] will strike the Shepherd [Jesus]. . . . We esteemed Him [Jesus] stricken, smitten by God (Mark 114:27; Isaiah 53:4).

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• My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me? (Mark 15:34).

[there buster]

Please take a different tone with me.

You can go around the Bible in 80 verses all you want to. All you are doing is demonstrating that context makes a difference. But you can't get the context of Job from Mark 15!

As it happens, I've written a whole article on the text you cite. Unlike your theory, my theology was vetted by SDA editors.

And yes, in context, the verses you cite are relatively simple. They only become difficult when you ignore their context.

[Robert]

Ed

"Christians have placed upon the throne of the universe a God of eternal hate. I cannot worship a being whose vengeance is boundless, whose cruelty shoreless, and whose malice is increased by the agonies he inflicts." [The 19th century skeptic, Robert G. Ingersoll]

Sad to say Christians, by giving God sinful human characteristics, have in reality created more atheist than any other source of heresies that I can think of....

[Derrell M]

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Sad to say Christians, by giving God sinful human characteristics, have in reality created more atheist than any other source of heresies that I can think of....

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Well said!

[lazarus]

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Shane said:

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I think this would be good for you.

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I'm not sure if you were refering to me but I think you have gone tooooo far. I would never go out bare chested like that

[]http://www.armchairempire.com/images/action-figures/Rambo.jpg[/]

[there buster]

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"Christians have placed upon the throne of the universe a God of eternal hate. I cannot worship a being whose vengeance is boundless, whose cruelty shoreless, and whose malice is increased by the agonies he inflicts." [The 19th century skeptic, Robert G. Ingersoll]

Sad to say Christians, by giving God sinful human characteristics, have in reality created more atheist than any other source of heresies that I can think of....

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Like most of your posts, this is totally irrelevant. It has no relationship to anything I have written.

No wonder you can't understand the Bible, written centuries ago in different languages and in different cultures. You can't understand declarative sentences written in English by a fellow countrymen.

At some point I hope you learn to look past your own presuppositions, and actually read what others write.

Mortimer Adler wrote a great book on this, called "How to Speak, How to Listen." It was written to help college freshmen benefit from their education, because so many of them exhibit the same characteristics you do.

They come in to college with narrow presuppositions, trigger on phrases they don't understand, and refuse to hear the professors--or their classmates--out.

I admire your energy dealing with scripture; when you learn to read sentences to the end and see what they say, instead of flying off on a fantasy when you see a trigger phrase, that energy will serve you well.

Until then, you will neither understand scripture, nor those who don't immediately accede to your wishes. It means that you will have zero effectiveness reaching others with the gospel. Tragedy, that.

[Kountzer]

There's a certain verse in Psalms, psalms 127 or somewhere there abouts, that suggests that unless God and His angels are guarding a location, it really can't be guarded.

I've thought about getting a hand gun, from time to time. I've never followed up on it. In fact, this is one of the very few occasions I've mentioned it to anyone, other than my wife. If you mention guns, some people these days will look at you askance, and If you mention you don't have a gun, and have never owned one, someone your wouldn't want know may take advantage of that information.

DB

[Robert]

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They come in to college with narrow presuppositions, trigger on phrases they don't understand, and refuse to hear the professors--or their classmates--out.

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• The opinions of learned men, the deductions of science, the creeds or decisions of ecclesiastical councils, as numerous and discordant as are the churches which they represent, the voice of the majority--not one nor all of these should be regarded as evidence for or against any point of religious faith. Before accepting any doctrine or precept, we should demand a plain "Thus saith the Lord"

  in its support.

  The fact that there is no controversy or agitation among God’s people, should not be regarded as conclusive evidence that they are holding fast to sound doctrine. There is reason to fear that they may not be clearly discriminating between truth and error. When no new questions are started by investigation of the Scriptures, when no difference of opinion arises which will set men to searching the Bible for themselves, to make sure that they have the truth, there will be many now, as in ancient times, who will hold to tradition, and worship they know not what.

1] I submit that Job was self-righteous.

2] I submit that God doesn't kill.

[there buster]

Well, finally, progress.

Your quotations are still irrelevant, because you are the one adhereing to the teaching of a "learned man." I'm just taking the Bible at its word.

As far as :

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1] I submit that Job was self-righteous.

2] I submit that God doesn't kill.

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Marvelous! Finally, a clear indication that these are your opinions.

I believe the scriptural evidence indicates your mistaken on both points.

The real difference between us is how to handle the Word of God.

Do we--

1) KNOW what God is like, and seek scriptural evidence to provie it, or do we

2) Read the Bible in context to LEARN about God.

I'm guessing that you almost never find anything in the Bible that surprises or troubles you.

[Robert]

Okay...you like to take the Bible just as it reads. Fair enough. For starters please explain, in context, what Christ meant by His reply to the expert at the law. This should be simple...unlike the book of Job, which spans pages. This should prove interesting.

• Luke 10:25 On one occasion an expert in the law stood up to test Jesus. “Teacher,” he asked, “what must I do to inherit eternal life?”

  26 “What is written in the Law?” he replied. “How do you read it?”

  27 He answered: ”‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your strength and with all your mind’; and, ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’”

  28 “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.”

  29 But he wanted to justify himself, so he asked Jesus, “And who is my neighbor?”

  30 In reply Jesus said: “A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, when he fell into the hands of robbers. They stripped him of his clothes, beat him and went away, leaving him half dead. 31 A priest happened to be going down the same road, and when he saw the man, he passed by on the other side. 32 So too, a Levite, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side. 33 But a Samaritan, as he traveled, came where the man was; and when he saw him, he took pity on him. 34 He went to him and bandaged his wounds, pouring on oil and wine. Then he put the man on his own donkey, took him to an inn and took care of him. 35 The next day he took out two silver coins and gave them to the innkeeper. ‘Look after him,’ he said, ‘and when I return, I will reimburse you for any extra expense you may have.’ 36 “Which of these three do you think was a neighbor to the man who fell into the hands of robbers?” 37 The expert in the law replied, “The one who had mercy on him.” Jesus told him, “Go and do likewise.” [NIV]

This all relates back to how we perceive God....

[there buster]

Three points.

1) I'm not certain what makes you think you're the examiner, to set me assignments, one way or the other. That approach may work with some, but it's a non-starter with me.

2) Which translation are you using? I can't find the one with the bolding and the underlining in your quote. Or can you simply not resist the impulse to slant the text?

3) Your question may be clear to you, but I'm not certain what you're asking. Do you know how to interpret parables? Is that what you want to know? Do you intend to examine the context in the rest of the chapter?

Frankly, your final sentence indicates to me that you're looking for another platitude. Scripture is almost always more subtle than one expects.

[Robert]

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Ed Dickerson said:

3) Your question may be clear to you, but I'm not certain what you're asking. Do you know how to interpret parables? Is that what you want to know? Do you intend to examine the context in the rest of the chapter?

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Elaborate on Christ's answer! After all, according to you, one should take it just as it reads:

His answer: verse 28 “You have answered correctly,” Jesus replied. “Do this and you will live.” [NIV]

"this do, and thou shalt live." [KJV]

This concept can be seen in other verses:

Lev 18:5 "So you shall keep My statutes and My judgments, by which a man may live if he does them; I am the Lord."

Ez 20:10:“So I took them out of the land of Egypt and brought them into the wilderness. 11 “And I gave them My statutes and informed them of My ordinances, by which, if a man observes them, he will live.

Rom 10:5 For Moses writes that the man who practices the righteousness which is based on law shall live by that righteousness.

Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.” 11 Now that no one is justified by the Law before God is evident; for, “The just by faith shall live.” 12 However, the Law is not of faith; on the contrary, “He who practices [the rules] by them he shall live.”

[there buster]

Apparently you mistake an abundance of words for evidence.

I notice you ignored my other points. Perhaps you're incapable of actual dialogue.

When you're done playing games, let me know.

[LifeHiscost]

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Robert said:

1] I submit that Job was self-righteous.

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Not distinctly spelled out. It is not recorded that he considered himself better or different than others, and he consistently sacrificed, which is a ritual admitting of personal sin.

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2I submit that God doesn't kill.

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[:"red"] "Now see that I, even I, am He,And there is no God besides Me; I kill and I make alive; I wound and I heal; Nor is there any who can deliver from My hand." [/] Deuteronomy 32:39 NKJV

Keep the faith!

[Robert]

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Ed Dickerson said:

Apparently you mistake an abundance of words for evidence.

I notice you ignored my other points. Perhaps you're incapable of actual dialogue.

When you're done playing games, let me know.

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No games...I am just challenging your claims that we can take the Bible just as it reads...as in "God says"....

If you can, Ed, then according to Christ you must keep the law to be saved. (See Luke chapter 10) That's what He meant by, "Do this and you will live." Only as one understands the overall picture does one have a chance in understanding the mysterious of the Bible....And this comes only by the Spirit, otherwise the Bible looks like one big book of contradictions.

[Robert]

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LifeHiscost said:

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Robert said:

1] I submit that Job was self-righteous.

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Not distinctly spelled out. It is not recorded that he considered himself better or different than others, and he consistently sacrificed, which is a ritual admitting of personal sin.

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Is 1:11 “What are your multiplied sacrifices to Me?”

Says the Lord. “I have had enough of burnt offerings of rams, And the fat of fed cattle. And I take no pleasure in the blood of bulls, lambs, or goats.

It could have been nothing more than a routine tradition attempting to appease an angry god....It could have been something Job did in order to earn heaven....Who knows, but I do know this -- Job was self-righteous. Here the book of Job is clear (except to Ed).

[Amelia]

I am tired of the "words". Please become less personal and more on topic or this thread gets closed. Thank you.

[Robert]

Actually God's character has a lot to with Christians owning guns. If God kills in self-defense, then it is okay for Christians to do the same.

If God doesn't kill...if God doesn't fight back, then while we might "justify" fighting back - we can longer make God the excuse for doing so.

[Derrell M]

I believe there has been a time or two when God fought back and killed people. There was that time when people became rebellious and wouldn't listen to him so he killed every person on Earth, other than a family of eight. Korah, Dathan, and Abiram and their families. Many tens of thousands of men, women, and children in the cities of Canaan. The guy who touched the ark of the covenant. The list of God's killings fills many books. In fact, if you consider how many people likely inhabited the Earth before the great flood, God could quite possibly be the most prolific killer in the history of our world.

[LifeHiscost]

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Friend said:

God could quite possibly be the most prolific killer in the history of our world.

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And when we make that statement, understanding it to be consistently revealing [:"red"] "...God is love," [/]we begin to know the mystery of Godliness.

Keep the faith!

[Robert]

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LifeHiscost said:

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Friend said:

God could quite possibly be the most prolific killer in the history of our world.

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And when we make that statement, understanding it to be consistently revealing [:"red"] "...God is love," [/]we begin to know the mystery of Godliness.

Keep the faith!

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god: "I'm god...I love you - now love me back and be good or I'll kill ya!"