I'm thinking of buying a gun?

[LifeHiscost]

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Robert said:

Let's face it...because of legalism,

>> Adventists are afraid to die. They don't have the assurance of eternal life by faith alone....Hence they fear they are not ready to go to sleep.<<

**nevertheless, these men aren't your example...Christ is.**

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Re: >> << Not to mention Baptists, Methodists, Catholics,Buhddists, Shintoists, Muslims, ad infinitum. Maybe the key word missing is "some".

Re: ** ** A wise statement. Which, instead of 'these men', could include Baptists, Methodists, Catholics,Buhddists, Shintoists, Muslims, Seventh-Day Adventists, ad infinitum, depending on where they are if they are seekers attempting to find the giver of Life.

[:"red"] "And ye shall seek me, and find me, when ye shall search for me with all your heart."[/] Jer 29:13 KJV

[:"red"] "Jesus saith unto him, I am....the life" [/] John 14:6 KJV

[LifeHiscost]

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Robert said:

What we really need to understand is the love of God….That’s what changed the disciples from a bunch of greedy, self-serving men who would fight at the drop of a hat to men that would rather die than to fight back.

>>In the meantime, lazarus, follow your convictions.<<

Rob

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That's the way I understand it. Re: >> << That means we have to accept responsibility for ourselves, instead of seeing others as responsible for the consequences of our own choices.

Keep the faith!

[LifeHiscost]

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lazarus said:

When you call the Police to respond to an armed intruder to ask the police to leave their guns at the station?

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That's just what they did in Britain or England for a long time, experiencing about 20 to 40(?) homocides yearly while in the United States where all law enforcement agencies carried firearms, we experienced 8,000 to 10,000 homocides annually.

[:"red"] "...and because of the abounding of the lawlessness, the love of the many shall become cold" [/] Matthew 24:12 YLT

We know the times they are a changin'. However are God's ideals? I think not.

Keep the faith!

[LifeHiscost]

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lazarus said:

We are all already aware that we are not as learned as you!

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Lazarus,

Truth only comes from God. Robert may at times be the instrument used, but you can often tell whether his trust is in the Spirit of God by how loud he yells.

[:"red"] "Go out and stand before me on the mountain," the LORD told him. And as Elijah stood there, the LORD passed by, and a mighty windstorm hit the mountain. It was such a terrible blast that the rocks were torn loose, but the LORD was not in the wind. After the wind there was an earthquake, but the LORD was not in the earthquake. And after the earthquake there was a fire, but the LORD was not in the fire. And after the fire there was the sound of a gentle whisper.

And a voice said, "What are you doing here, Elijah?"

I alone am left, and now they are trying to kill me, too."

Then the LORD told him, "Go back the way you came, I will preserve seven thousand others in Israel who have never bowed to Baal or kissed him!"

" [/] 1 Kings 19:11-18 NLT

Blessings!!

[lazarus]

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Lazarus,

Truth only comes from God. Robert may at times be the instrument used, but you can often tell whether his trust is in the Spirit of God by how loud he yells.

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I hope you didn't miss the fact as I was trying to be ironic.

UK murder rate 03/04 was 853 (the rate is rising however)

US murder rate 02 was 16,110

Majority of regular UK police do not carry guns

UK has no capital punishment. 1964 UK executed 2 people.

Uk has very strict gun laws

Are we to conclude that the British are just nicer people or perhaps they use swords, whips, baseball bats more often than we do. Perhaps they are hiding the true statistics. Maybe its too cold and wet to kill people!

[jasd]

Robert, I appreciate your input and would readily accede to its persuasiveness if not that I find in Writ --textual opposition. Somewhere in between the termini of a matter is the tertium quid of truth that is suited to the individual as that individual is led and prepared of the Spirit -- to what purpose? we shall hopefully see… one day.

jasd 12:12 Be ye not of this world; nevertheless, ye must needs remain in the world.

1Cor 5:10 Yet not altogether with the fornicators of this world, or with the covetous, or extortioners, or with idolaters; for then must ye needs go out of the world.

jasd 12:12 For is it not written that thou shalt love thine enemies? Yea, love thine enemies -- but moreso, love thine own. For thou shalt love thine enemies with the agapao of your mind, v12 And of thine own shalt thou also love with agapao; but, increasing moreover unto thine own both storge and [the] phileo of thine heart.

1 Tim 5:8 But if any provide not for his own, and specially for those of his own house, he hath denied the faith, and is worse than an infidel.

[jasd]

Speaking of rates -- there is that of homogeneity, which, vis-à-vis that of the USofA, I believe was rather the condition pertaining in Britannia for some time (not mentioning the relative sense of propriety enculturated in the general conduct of its citizenry -- hitherto, its dishevelment) …not being similarly found in the USofA. That same ‘rate’ is more notably seen

in Japan where it is even more homogeneous, to the point of phobia, --subsequently translating into an even more impressive(?) ratio. Yet,

one, being American, hardly wishes-for the culture of either that of Britannia or Japan.

[Dr. Shane]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

UK murder rate 03/04 was 853 (the rate is rising however)

US murder rate 02 was 16,110

<hr /></blockquote><font class="post">

I think you are stating the number of murders. The murder rate should be a ratio like: US 1:25,000 UK 1:47,000

[Robert]

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Ed Dickerson said:

If we take the Bible seriously, then God used the waters of the flood, fire and brimstone against Sodom and Gommorrah, and again at the end of time to destroy the wicked.

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Of course this implies that those who disagree that God kills/murders His unbelieving Children are not serious Bible students. To this I disagree, strongly....

Christ extended Himself to the lengths of Calvary to preserve our freedom of choice. But is choice really free, with God standing over us to destroy us if we choose wrong? After enduring the cross to redeem humanity, thus showing His loving character before the universe, why does He, in the end, reverse it all by executing those whose choices He does not like? How can a God who kills command His people not to kill and yet to be like Him?

[Bravus]

From FOX News: [The US] total of 16,137 worked out to 5.5 murders for every 100,000 people. [or 0.055 per 1000 people]

From this site: http://www.nationmaster.com/country/uk/Crime

UK rate = 0.001 per 1000 people

The site gives great comparisons, and Colombia at 0.61 per 1000 is far and away the murder capital of the world. Still the UK rate is less than 1/5 of the US rate.

[Robert]

Interesting statistics!

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Robert,

This topic seems to keep coming up. I am still thinking and studying this. When the time is right, hopefully soon, I may start a new post specifically on this topic. I'm sure it has been brought up before but I think it's worth looking at again. I have had some interesting thoughts which have not entered my mind before.

God bless you,

Norman

[Dr. Shane]

One of the large factors in the murder rate is the amount of organized crime and gang related murders. Mexico, for example, (where guns are illegal) is #6 of the most murderous countries (the US is #24). However most of Mexican murders are related to organized crime. The average citizen or tourist in Mexico is pretty safe from violent crime but the large number of murders by drug lords of police and those within their own organizations causes it to be high on the list of murderous countries.

[there buster]

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Of course this implies that those who disagree that God kills/murders His unbelieving Children are not serious Bible students.

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I really wasn't thinking about that at all.

However, since you raise it, there's a difference between being a serious student and taking the text seriously. All of your posts indicate you are very serious about what you believe, but you don't take the text seriously.

I was simply saying that however you want to pursue it, God intervened in history to put an end to evildoers.

It appears to me the following texts indicate that the Flood wasn't just the natural ecological consequence of evil proliferating, but a definite, specific action of God.

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Gen6: 7 So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth—

Gen 7: 4 Seven days from now I will send rain on the earth for forty days and forty nights, and I will wipe from the face of the earth every living creature I have made."

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I take the text and the context seriously. Its primary meaning has to be what the original audience would take it to mean, since God was communicating with them, and God doesn't waste effort.

Let's take your approach and see what it yields.

In Job, where you claim God didn't say what He thought of Job, but what Job thought about himself, the it follows that here in Genesis God wasn't saying what HE was thinking the earth, God was saying what Noah was thinking about earth.

I guess by that logic Noah destroyed the earth. I say, "I guess," because I can't make sense of that way of approaching the text.

I'm certain you're serious. But your method of interpretation places no restraints on the outcome. That effectively places you above the text. The text isn't the inspired part, you, the interpreter, must be, if the teaching is to have authority.

I can accept the text as inspired. But your method overrides the clear meaning of the text, your method requires me to accept you as inspired.

I wouldn't expect you to take seriously any claim that I am inspired.

Yes, it's off topic. So why bring it up?

What's on topic is that God clearly intervenes to resist evil, and not always in the most peaceable ways.

That at least makes it possible that we might use force, or the potential use of force, to resist evil.

[CyberGuy]

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Has anyone suggested all the other means of securing one's home? Daily prayer, trimming back bushes around doors and windows, providing adequate lighting that is out of normal arms-length, knowing your neighbors well, posting emergency numbers near the telephone in plain view, installing a home security system, carrying a cell phone, routinely practiced escape routes, training children thoroughly with phone etiquette and safety, awareness of all escape routes, and any other common sense measures one might take are all invaluable.

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The police department in our town has suggested clearing away shrubs so that windows can be scene from the street. Also use passive resistance. Passive resistance meaning to plant a thorny or bush with a lot of thorns on them in front of windows. This is called Passive resistance. Burglers will tend to not bother with a window that they will have to negotiate past a thorny bush. Put bars and locks in all windows. Put windows locks in all windows. Burglers will try to enter through an open windows. Dogs are a good deterant as well. A barking dog in the house will discourage most burglers. No use entering a house with a dog that might bite you most crooks will reason.

Guns are not encouraged by the police department. More people die from a child getting hold of a gun and playing with it not realizing it is loaded and killing themselves or some other family member. Or a parent losing their temper and grabbing a gun in a fit of rage and killing a spouse. More mishaps happen to familiy members by having a gun in the family that a gun will prevent such as a burgler in intruder.

Another suggestion is motion lighting. Lights that come on when motion sets them off. cover every window so that motion lighting will go off if motion happens. Sure a cat or dog will set it off but it is also unnerves a burgler to have a light go on and iluminate himself as he approches a dark house.

Before one buys a gun I would suggest talking to ones police department to see what they suggest. Thinking a gun is the ONLY answer to protection is very dangerous thinking IMO

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Lazarus,

You have a lot of things to think about here, but there's one thing else I'd like to add. If you're concerned about the area in which you live maybe it would be a good idea to move to the country.

We live in the country and I can testify to the benefits of living here. I even enjoy mowing the lawn on the riding mower. We have a large fig tree, Muscadine grapes, a persimmons tree. ( I made persimmons granola last week, mmmmm) I planted a pear tree last year and we have wild raspberries all over the place. We can plant a garden which we didn't do this year.

We can go out and play with our dog or the neighborhood cats and we have lots of room to do as we please. Our neighbors are not close or too far away.

Most cities are just not safe to live any longer. Sane people near Atlanta are draining out of the place to live in Sub Divisions about 45 mins - 1hr away. God will call His people out of these wicked places (This is no overstatement)

Make plans now while the interest rates are still low, soon moving out of cites will be hard because no one will want to buy house there but rather want to live in these Sub Divs.

Also, the dangers for your kids, physically and morally are not worth getting a security system or a gun, dog or what ever, it's best to just leave.

Norman

[cricket]

Pastor Lazarus,

Even so, you must remember that some of the really demented criminals make their homes in the country. Also, many criminals take their victims of abuse to the country because there is so little surveillance of the area.

Never let your guard down--no matter where you live. The dangers for you, your wife and kids are too imperative to ignore using a security plan of some degree.

Christine "Chrys" Wall

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

From AH P139

The time has come when, as God opens the way, families should move out of the cities. The children should be taken into the country. The parents should get as suitable a place as their means will allow. Though the dwelling may be small, yet there should be land in connection with it that may be cultivated.

Before the overflowing scourge shall come upon the dwellers of the earth, the Lord calls upon all who are Israelites indeed to prepare for that event. To parents He sends the warning cry: Gather your children into your own houses; gather them away from those who are disregarding the commandments of God, who are teaching and practicing evil. Get out of the large cities as fast as possible.

Parents can secure small homes in the country, with land for cultivation, where they can have orchards and where they can raise vegetables and small fruits to take the place of flesh meat, which is so corrupting to the lifeblood coursing through the veins. On such places the children will not

140

be surrounded with the corrupting influences of city life. God will help His people to find such homes outside of the cities.

Norman

[lazarus]

I appreciate all of your input...... you've all made me think about this alot. My views have changed quite a bit

Check this out! My wife says its a bit over the top!

http://www.hkdefense.us/pages/military-le/smg/mp5/mp5.html

We may buy one each! Still a bit confused though

[Derrell M]

If you have a daughter, it may not be over the top. My daughter is eleven, and I am thinking that an HK submachinegun might NOT be over the top. There are BOYS! They are after my baby! I have a Louisville Slugger that has knocked many "ahems" over the fence, but... well... those were, well... base"ahems."

[Dr. Shane]

Yes, I think a submachine gun is a little over the top. Just get a sawed-off shotgun with rocksalt. Get a gun safe with a combination keypad lock to keep it away from any kids you may have.

But also invest in a security system and a guard dog.

If you believe you need a submachine gun you may want to quit whatever illegal business you are doing that makes you so paranoid you feel you need one. <img src="/ubbtreads/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

[jasd]

>>We may buy one each!<<

Uh huh, at $15,000 a pop -- used. (Besides, isn’t State of Maryland kinda like, you know, --death on wheels where those things are concerned?)

You’re not just yanking chains, are you?

--To anyone serious about the issue, either a cheap shotgun loaded with rocksalt, as Shane suggests, something like a single-action handgun, or some other the like will do, as the lawyer of the ‘interested party or parties’ will capitalize on either the appearance or the effectiveness of the ‘weapon used’ -- to prejudice a jury (more easily done than might otherwise be suspected).

That lawyer will attempt to make the case that you, to satisfy deep dark psychological impulses, purchased that horrible and needlessly powerful weapon to inflict the most harm upon an innocent victim that happened by your property and, happenstancely, was enticed by whatever can be construed as an ‘attractive nuisance’. An unfortunate

moment for the victim..., as ‘a deeply psychotic killer’ (in the person of yourself) lay patiently in wait -- after having availed him or herself of the biggest, meanest, emotionally satisfying weapon that was thereafter, kept close to hand, oiled and cleaned to guarantee its most machined efficiency, maybe even fondled -- and m’gosh! LOOK! at the bullets s/he purchased -- the biggest, deadliest sort one might use on a dangerous animal in the jungles of some strange dark continent! or against maddened Nazis!

It won’t even matter if the local Sheriff or DA doesn’t file charges against you -- there will be one or more plaintiff(s) suing you for monie$.

If you can’t make yourself judgement-proof then you must make yourself verry, verry, deserving of sympathy from the jury, you know -- emotionally scarred for life by the sad events precipitated by a clear and present danger entirely unanticipated and overwhelming -- and thank your constellations (oh, sob…) that there happened to lying about that little rusty toy that the family (sob…) used to plink at soda cans in your country outings… those same cans no-one in your family (sob…) could ever hit.

There are many, many more exigencies… so, one sees, it’s serious business

[Robert]

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Ed Dickerson said:

It appears

to me the following texts indicate that the Flood wasn't just the natural ecological consequence of evil proliferating, but a definite, specific action of God.

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Gen6: 7 So the LORD said, "I will wipe mankind, whom I have created, from the face of the earth—

Gen 7: 4 Seven days from now I will send rain on the earth for forty days and forty nights, and I will wipe from the face of the earth every living creature I have made."

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I take the text and the context seriously. Its primary meaning has to be what the original audience would take it to mean, since God was communicating with them, and God doesn't waste effort.

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Do you take these seriously also?

• The anger of the Lord was aroused against Israel and He [God] moved David . . . to . . . number Israel and Judah (2 Sam. 24:2).

  So Saul died for his unfaithfulness which he had committed against the Lord, because he did not keep the word of the Lord, and also because he consulted a medium for guidance, but he did not inquire of the Lord; therefore, He [God] killed him, and turned the kingdom over to David, the son of Jesse (1 Chron. 10:13, 14).

  And the Lord said to Moses, “When you go back to Egypt, see that you do all those wonders before Pharoah which I have put in your hand. But I [God] will harden his heart so that he will not let the people go” (Exodus 4:21).

  “For I [God] will pass through the land of Egypt on that night and will strike all the firstborn in the land of Egypt, both man and beast; against all the gods of Egypt I will execute judgment: I am the Lord” (Exodus 12:12).

  I [God] will strike the Shepherd [Jesus]. . . . We esteemed Him [Jesus] stricken, smitten by God (Mark 114:27; Isaiah 53:4).

[Robert]

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Ed Dickerson said:

What's on topic is that God clearly intervenes to resist evil, and not always in the most peaceable ways.

That at least makes it possible that we might use force, or the potential use of force, to resist evil.

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Matt 5:38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Eye for eye, and tooth for tooth.’ 39 But I tell you, Do not resist an evil person....43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘Love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I tell you: Love your enemies....

Do we have a righteous example of someone who fulfilled the spirit of the law? Yes:

• "He was oppressed and He was afflicted, Yet He did not open His mouth...."

  Then they spat in His face and beat Him with their fists; and others slapped Him, and said, “Prophesy to us, You Christ; who is the one who hit You?”

  When he was reviled, he did not revile in return; when he suffered, he did not threaten; but he trusted to him who judges justly.

[Robert]

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Ed Dickerson said:

In Job, where you claim God didn't say what He thought of Job, but what Job thought about himself...

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Ed,

The concept is rather simple: Satan is the accuser! What's his accusation? God, you don't have the right to take believing sinners to heaven. God says - sure I do, because in My Son they have a righteousness by faith that fully qualifies the believer now and in the judgment.

Now a question: Where's the believer who's being accused/defended? Right...on earth.

So...if the person being accused/defended can't be in heaven to defend himself, then God must defend him.

Ah, but IF that person is depending upon his own righteousness instead of the righteousness of God, then God cannot legally defend such unbelief.

Job clearly was self-righteous....He was self-deceived [see 1 John 1:8]. His claim of blamelessness [see Job 31:6] was simply passed on to the accuser, Satan, since God could no longer represent Him by His righteousness.

Rob