Rev 4 & 5; Pentecost or 1844

[Gus Foster]

Some have varied opinions on this question; here is a summation from some of our commentators:

Questions:

What is the time period of Rev 4 & 5?

Who are the characters of Rev 4 & 5?

How many rooms in sanctuary; where did Christ ascend, did He move?

Is it a judgment scene? 1844? Or, is it Pentecost at

the ascention of Christ to throneroom?

Scripture door opened in heaven—seeing in heaven; Is 6:1-5 (thresholds, doorposts)

Eze 1:1-29 door opened in Heaven (throneroom)

Zech 1:8 vision---horses 6:1-4 spirits from the Lord to the whole earth; vs 5

chariots in chapter 6 with colors of horses in Rev; red, black, white, dappled

Acts 7:55 Stephen saw Jesus standing next to God; “I see heaven open”, vs 56

Heb 1:3 Jesus sat at throne with Father

Rev 1:12 7 golden lampstands / Jesus

Rev 4:1 door standing open in heaven; Father and Son; chapter 5

Rev 5:1 Father sitting on throne in throneroom

Jer 17:12 a glorious throne, a place of our sanctuary

GC pg 414 The holy places in the sanctuary in heaven, first apartment in Rev 4, 5 and Rev 11:19 is in the inner veil- holy of holies

GC pg 426 Christ moved from one room to the other

GC pg 428 Christ ceased His work in the first apartment to work in the second apartment

WA Spicer—Beacon of Prophecy, 1935

skips Rev 4 as do many mondern Adventist magazines(ieThese Times on Rev)

and briefly mentions Rev 5 on pg 201 (Rev 4 & 5 is the center of the church age)

page 201 “the prophet (John) was looking at a throne”

Stephen N Haskell--The Story of the Seer of Patmos, 1905

chapter 5 pg 92 “A Glimpse of Heaven” calls it the throneroom of God

pg 93 Christ was the first begotton of the Father ( and he means created)

pg 94 upon Christ was “bestowed creative powers”

pg 96 24 elders, rose with Christ as firstfruits

pg 98 4 living creatures represent 4 phases of God's character

lion calf man eagle

Judah Ephaim Reuben Dan

Matt Mark Luke John

“represent Christ's 4 natures”

Edwin R Thiele—Outline Studies of Revelation, 1949

pg 85 door open—God seated on throne

pg 86 first apartment (PP pg 356)

pg 87-95 4 living ones (beings) are cherubim, seraphim

Eze 1; Zech 6; Ps 68:17; Zech 1 & 6, horses and chariots

( his documentary on Rev 4 & 5 is the best I've ever found, Gus Foster)

Ed pg 173-178; Test Vol 5 pg 753/4; EW pg 116; GC pg 436, 437

pg 100 on this occasion Christ is taking His priestly throne after His resurrection

(see DA pg 832-835)

On Rev 4:8 the 4 living creatures are angels (Counsels to Teachers, pg 402: Spirit of Prophecy, pg 272/3; DA 834; R&H Dec 22, 1896)

On Rev 5:11 angels sing song of the redeemed (Letter 79, 1900; R&H July 4, 1899)

Uriah Smith—Daniel and Revelation, revised 1944

chapter 7 pg 407 Heaven opened as with Stephen (Acts 7:56)

pg 412 the 4 living creatures are 'redeemed persons'

pg 420 on Rev 5:8 “these redeemed ones are the assistants of our great High Priest”

pg 409 24 elders are those resurrected with Christ (matt 27:52)

pg 421 Smith suggests this time is the beginning of Christ's ministry in heaven

Roy Allan Anderson—Unfolding the Revelation, 1953

chapter 6 pg 48 “In vision John enters the sanctuary of God, the throneroom”

pg 49 'a door ---opened in heaven---was the inner door to the heavenly sanctuary---when the High Priest performs His closing work of ministry'. (MHP in 1844)

pg 54 the time period is the IJ (investigative judgment)

Verlene DeWitt Youngberg—The Revelation of Jesus Christ to His People, 1977

chapter 3 pg 137 'John is taken in vision---of throne room in heaven---the cleansing of the

heavenly sanctuary'

pg 138 'the glorious heaven chariot bears the Father & Jesus Christ from one apartment of the sanctuary to the other'

pg 141 scenes to be performed after 96AD (in 1844)

PG 148 4 living creatures are Seraphim (Is 6:2)

Desmond Ford—Crisis-Commentary on Book of Revelation, 1982

pg 338 looked through door standing open; the veil had been removed by Christ

pg 340/1 4 living creatures are 'groups' of redeemed who bear symbols of 4 camps of Israel

pg 348 time is at ascension (Dan 7:14) Pentecost

C Mervyn Maxwell—God Cares 2, Revelation. 1985

pg 147 “the existence of the heavenly sanctuary and Christ's presence there beside His Father are taught in Hebrews 8:1, 2 and discussion in GC 1:164-172”

pg 148 “John stands at an open door in heaven and observes God's throneroom in action”

the 4 living beings are heavenly beings---pg 153-157 cherubs/serephs

pg 168-171 heaven is a real literal sanctuary

Rev 4 & 5 holy place is moved into the MHP in 1844 (quotes on pgs 170-173)

Hans K LaRondelle—End-Time Prophecies, 1997

chapter 12 pg 109 24 elders of Rev 4 & 5 are from 1 Chron 24

pg 111 4 living beings are seaphs from Is 6 (Rev 4:)

Pg 113 scroll is 'future of church'

pg 116 time is enthronement of Christ

pg 117 time is not judgment scene of Dan 7

pg 118 time is Pentecost-seals are phases of the history of the church

( I totally agree, Gus Foster)

Jacques B Doukhan—Secrets of Revelation 2002

chapter 2 pg 54 “4 living creatures represent whole of creation as created beings worshipping God”

pg 57 scene is Pentecost---enthronement of Christ; 7 seals parallel the 7 churches

Ranko Stefanovic—Revelation of Jesus Christ, 2002

pg 160 time is enthronement of Christ; Pentecost pg 163 Acts 2:32-36; Acts 13:33, 34;

Rom 8:34; Eph 1:20-22; Heb 1:3; Heb 10:12; Heb 12:2; 1 Pet 3:21, 22

pg 164 Rev 4 & 5 are not judgment scenes but enthronement

pg 164 Dan 7:13, 14; Phil 2:6-11; Acts 2:20-22

pg 164 the 4 living creatures are Ezekiel's cherubim and Isaiah's seraphim

LaRondelle and Stefanovic are on the same page

and my group study concurs GF

SDA Bible Commentary Vol 7 on Rev 4 & 5 pgs 766ff

pg 767 24 elders from resurrected (Matt 27:52, 53; Eph 4:8)

pg 768 the 4 living beings are Ezekiel's cherubim (Eze 10:20-22)

pg 766 throneroom of Rev 4 is MHP

pg 774 Rev 4 & 5 does not represent a specific time

“but a timeless, highly symbolic portrayal of the victory of Christ and the resulting vindication of God”

John 14:2 “In my Father's house are many rooms”

[Ron Lambert]

Rev. 4 and 5 can only be referring to the Judgment scene of Daniel 7. What should settle the issue for everyone that this could NOT be Christ's enthronement at the time of His Ascension is Revelation 4:1. Please read it carefully; it is quite clear:

"After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven, and the first voice which I had heard, like the sound of a trumpet speaking with me, said, 'Come up here, and I will show you what must take place after these things.'" (NASB)

Please note that the first phrase says: "AFTER these things." After what things? What has just preceded is the letters to the seven churches. And if anyone wishes to claim the word "after" merely means this is the next vision in the series of visions John saw, look at the last clause in the verse: "I will show you what must take place after these things." This can leave no question that the vision that comes next, in chapters 4 and 5, pertains to events that transpire after "these things," which can only refer to the letters to the seven churches.

This simple historical fact must be kept in mind: Revelation was written in approximately 100 A.D., which was 67 years after the Ascension of Christ. Therefore there is no way it can be maintained that chapters 4 and 5 refer to anything that took place at the Ascension of Christ.

Please note also that there are clear references to a judgment taking place, in verse 2 with the question "who is worthy," and in verses 3 and 4 with the conclusion: "No one was FOUND worthy," and then verses 5 and 9 tell us that the Lamb was FOUND worthy. This is the operation of judgment, and it exactly paralles Daniel 7:9, 10, 13, 14.

[Gus Foster]

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Please note also that there are clear references to a judgment taking place, in verse 2 with the question "who is worthy," and in verses 3 and 4 with the conclusion: "No one was FOUND worthy," and then verses 5 and 9 tell us that the Lamb was FOUND worthy. This is the operation of judgment, and it exactly paralles Daniel 7:9, 10, 13, 14.

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That is the very express reason why I quoted all of the scholars at the beginning. I did not ad much, although I did comment that LaRondelle and Stefanovic authored my opinion, and the conclusion of most of our SDA commentators.

Certainly everyone is entitled to their opinion, bu this is much more serious than that. Every other denomination teaches that Rev 3 is the end of the church age, and that 'your after this' is afterwards. These are visions, and not in chronological order--it is a prolepsis; constantly recapitualting time periods, where the start of the churches, seals, trumpets and Rev 14:1,2 are all at the beginning of the church age and heaven and earth celebrate Pentecost, Rev 4 and Acts 2.

This is huge; and at this last day, last time latter rain effort, it would be well for Christ's people to give the last 'messasge'. Look at all the commentaries quoted; each one has paragraphs on this subject, and all of those in the last 25 years have seen Pentecost and the incredible message Peter gave as the enthronement of Jesus.

This is past incredible, and will bring the end-time converts to the Sabbath, gospol truth.

And to think, our Lord allows us to be here---wow!

[Ron Lambert]

The opinions of various scholars can be worth considering, but often turn out not to be really authoritative or even sound. What is authoritative is what the Bible text says, and Revelation 4:1 simply does not allow any of the ways some scholars seek to salvage their theories that the vision of chapters four and five has to do with the beginning of the Christian era, at Christ's Ascension.

The mere fact that Revelation was written some 60+ years after the Ascension of Christ should make this position so embarasssingly impossible that scholars should be too ashamed to even try to maintain this position. Yet some do.

Such scholars are clearly biased. They are desperate to maintain that the prophecies of the seals and trumpets apply to past history, and this absolutely requires that the vision of Revelation four and five must be relagated to the beginning of the Christian era. They know that if they admit what the text most obviously and clearly indicates, that this refers to the same judgment scene depected in Daniel chapter 7, then the prophecies of the seals and trumpets--which undeniably flow out of the events depicted in Revelation four and five--have to have their primary application in the future, following the beginning of the Judgment.

Such biased thinking must be set aside by anyone who desires to heed the Biblical admonition, "Study to shew thyself approved unto God, a workman that needeth not to be ashamed, rightly dividing the word of truth." (2 Tim. 2:15.) This is the Word of God we are handling, and we ought not to think we can interpret to suit our cherished, traditional theories. That would amount to making it be the word of man rather than the Word of God.

[Gus Foster]

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The opinions of various scholars can be worth considering, but often turn out not to be really authoritative or even sound. What is authoritative is what the Bible text says, and Revelation 4:1 simply does not allow any of the ways some scholars seek to salvage their theories that the vision of chapters four and five has to do with the beginning of the Christian era, at Christ's Ascension.

The mere fact that Revelation was written some 60+ years after the Ascension of Christ should make this position so embarasssingly impossible that scholars should be too ashamed to even try to maintain this position. Yet some do.

Such scholars are clearly biased.

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I am one of those, although I'm sure not many would qulalify me as a 'scholar' in any terms. However, the 10 year Bible study on Revelation that I was a part of clearly has no bias, no tenable motives, and clearly identified Rev 4 & 5 with Pentecost, and the 4 living beings as the covering cerubs around the throne room. Obvioulsy, you disagree. I can assure you that Ford, LaRondelle, and Stefanovic have no ulterior motives to comply with any preconcieved notions you allude to.

It would appear that you have concrete ideas that will never be swayed by any amount of Bible study, even though you seem to accuse others of that complicity. Even Uriah Smith put the time as Pentecost, long before people had to convince others of their loyalties.

I am reaching out to any one who will study for themselves, and Scripture is totally clear about the characters and time of Rev 4 & 5; let the Holy Spirit speak!

[LifeHiscost]

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Ron Lambert said:

That would amount to making it be the word of man rather than the Word of God.

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As such it will reap the same results as the word of man.

[:"red"] "Run to and fro through the streets of Jerusalem;See now and know; And seek in her open places If you can find a man, If there is anyone who executes judgment, Who seeks the truth, And I will pardon her." [/] Jeremiah 5:2 NKJV

Keep the faith!

[LifeHiscost]

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Gus Foster said:

the Holy Spirit speak!

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I think that an excellent idea.

[:"red"] "Now I have told you before it happens, so that when it happens, you may believe." [/] John 14:29 NASB

[:"red"] "For now we see through a glass, darkly; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known." [/] 1 Cor 13:12 KJV

[:"red"] "For we know in part and we prophesy in part;

but when the perfect comes, the partial will be done away" [/] 1 Cor 13:9,10 NASB

[Gus Foster]

Hans LaRondelle---End-Time Prophecies of the Bible Pg 113: The purpose of John's Apocalypse is to unveil those things that 'must soon take place' Rev 1:1, 19; 4:1. Surprisingly, what John sees in his vision, deals not with what was going to take place on earth but with what was taking place in heaven. --which will determine the source of human history, and the ultimate destiny of the world.

Pg 117-- The throne vision of Rev 5 does not portray the judgment scene of Dan 7 as some assume. The difference between the 2 visions is too marked. First, the intention of John's throne vision is to disclose the beginning of Christ's ministry and reign becasue of His enthronement as the risen Lord, and the initiation of a new era of salvation, the Messianic age.

Daniel's vision protrays a judgment in heaven that inaugurates Christ's final ministry when antichrist has ruled the earth for 3 1/2 prophetic times, Dan 7:8-11, 25, 26.

Rev 5 describes the ecstatic joy in heaven about Christ's self-sacrifice, resurrection and enthronement as the King-Priest in heaven, that enqble Him to restore the kingdom of God on earth.

[Gus Foster]

Ranko Stefanovic--Revelation of Jesus Christ pgs 164-166: A popular view suggests that Rev 4-5 describes a judgment scene. Those who hold this view believe that Rev 4-5 builds especially on Dan 7:7-14. Some parallels are evident: the presence of more than one throne (Dan 7:9; Rev 4:4), God sitting on a radiant throne (Dan 7:9; Rev 4:2-3), the presence of innumerable heavenly beings (Dan 7:10; Rev 5:11), the mention of books (Dan 7:10; Rev 5:1), the Son of man receiving dominion (Dan 7:13, 14; Rev 5:6-9), and the presence of the saints (Dan 7:14; Rev 5:9). despite the evident parallels, however, nothing in the text indicates that Rev 4-5 is a judgment scene.

First of all, no judgment scene appears in Rev 4-5. While the language of judgment is often used in the rest of the book (Rev 6:10; 11:18; 14:7; 16:5; 17:1; 18:10, 20; 19:2; 20:4, 12,13), it is deliberately avoided in Rev 4-5. The only appearance of judgment language in the first half of the book is found in Rev 6:10; this text makes it clear that from the perspective of chapters 4-5, the judgment has not taken place yet. The martyrs ask -- how long, before judgment---

The judgment scene does not appear before the opening of the books. Subsequent judgment scenes will follow. Also, it cannot be the investigative judgment since this part focuses on the Christian era, rather than on the eschatological period.

The evidence clearly supports the view that Rev 4-5 describes the enthronement of the resurrected Christ at the right hand of the Father (Dan 7:13, 13; Phil 2:6-11), the evnet which occurred at Pentecost (Acts 2:32-36), as the most satisfactory interpretation. We would expect, then, that the material following Rev 5 covers the history throughout the Christin era from the first century until the second coming.

[Gus Foster]

Now, I have quoted two of our best scholars on their intrepretation of Revelation. Their analysis is completely in aggreement with my study, and proclamations of the past few years. Anyone is certaily entitled to a different opinion, but I contend that it varies from the intent of Scripture, and this is the last day messasge that shall bring about the latter rain.

This is indeed thrilling, that Pentecost on earth was also in heaven---what a Revelation!

[Ron Lambert]

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Some parallels are evident: the presence of more than one throne (Dan 7:9; Rev 4:4), God sitting on a radiant throne (Dan 7:9; Rev 4:2-3), the presence of innumerable heavenly beings (Dan 7:10; Rev 5:11), the mention of books (Dan 7:10; Rev 5:1), the Son of man receiving dominion (Dan 7:13, 14; Rev 5:6-9), and the presence of the saints (Dan 7:14; Rev 5:9).

despite the evident parallels, however, nothing in the text indicates that Rev 4-5 is a judgment scene.

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(Emphasis supplied.)

What an incredible statement! All kinds of admitted parallels--virtually every element matches--and yet we are supposed to believe the assertion of a few traditional scholars that this has nothing to do with the judgment. How can such plain parallels to the Judgment scene in Daniel seven be ignored?

What about the references to "found worthy" in chapter five? What kind of mental convolutions make it possible for anyone to deny that "found worthy" is a plain reference to judgment? What else COULD it be? How could you find first that no one is worthy, and then find Someone who is worthy, without an investigative judgment taking place? And notice the fact that human salvation depends upon someone being able to open the book, and when the Lamb prevails and is found worthy to open the book, the result is that the 24 elders sing paeons of praise because humanity has been saved! How could this not be talking about the Investigative Judgment? What is missing? Nothing!

And as this book is opened as humanity is judged and accorded salvation because the Lamb is found worthy, the seals are opened, and we have the prophecies of the seals, which are seen as a part of the ongoing judgment process as the book is opened.

Anyone who wants to maintain that the seals refer to past history, begining with the early Christian era, is simply out of luck. It is logically inescapable that the prophecies of the seven seals MUST NECESSARILY apply to events that take place during the Judgment. Likewise the seven trumpets, which are presented in parallel to the seven seals, following an introductory vignette which depicts the closing up of the Judgment when Christ finishes His Intercessory work as our High Priest--indicating that the trumpets depict events that take place during the conclusion of the Judgment during the Final Conflict.

Look, the early Millerites believed the world was going to end in 1844, so it was logically impossible for them to fairly consider the possibility that the seals and trumpets had future application, rather than the traditional past history application. But now we know that 1844 was not the end of the world, and it is time that we reconsidered such prophecies honestly and responsibly, setting aside any preconceived bias.

Gus, you can put your faith in these scholars if you wish. I have no use for the word of such men where it is so clearly contrary to the Word of God. I place my faith in what God's Word plainly says. Why don't you?

[Gus Foster]

The first 1800 centuries AD knew nothing about an IJ. History tells us that Christians lived incredible lives with incredible persecution. They knew that the first 14 chapters of Revelation were directly for them. I have scores of books that reveal their understanding and knowledge of Scripture--none questioned that all of heaven was available to their well-being, and they lived for the next life, not this one. And when they died martyrs, they did so convinced that they would be raised on the Lord's Day.

They knew that the seraphs around the throne in Rev 4-5, who witnessed Christ's entrhonement on Pentecost, would support their gospel cause. Only in the 19th century, as the reformation was coming to its pinnacle with the understanding and acceptance of the Sabbath in the final stages of church history, was new ideas presented.

There have been all kinds of new ideas about these texts, and much have been done to change proven understanding. For all of the 1990s I was envolved in a Revelation study group that spent hours every week looking up the original language and understanding of these Scriptures. Never did I consult with a 'traditional scholar', although I now compare to see who has agreed with our findings.

I'm not sure how a difference of opnion on Rev 4-14 changes the efectiveness of the gospel; but do know that I have peace with our findings, and find some who confer.

[there buster]

I'm hesitant to ask. Is either of you interested in evidence that neither of you has yet cited?

[Ron Lambert]

Ed--Yes. The more evidence the better. But let it be real, Scriptural evidence, not just the opinion of some scholar who expects his opinion to be taken as evidence. Less assertions, more facts.

[there buster]

Well, how about this? Every item of Sanctuary furniture is mentioned in Revelation, with the possible exception of the laver.

Would those mentions be significant, do you think?

[Ron Lambert]

That confirms that the events of Revelation four and five take place in the sanctuary in Heaven, before the throne of God. And since the veil or wall of partition between the Holy and Most Holy places was removed (since Christ as High Priest does not need to be sheltered from the glory of God's presence) it is no surprise that all the items of sanctuary furniture should be within sight.

I would suggest to you that the laver was represented by the "sea of glass like unto crystal" (Rev. 4:6.) Note that the laver was also called a "sea" and a "brass sea" or "brazen sea" (see for example 2 Kings 25:13, 16; 1 Chron. 18:8; Jer. 52:17, 20).

[Gus Foster]

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That confirms that the events of Revelation four and five take place in the sanctuary in Heaven, before the throne of God. And since the veil or wall of partition between the Holy and Most Holy places was removed (since Christ as High Priest does not need to be sheltered from the glory of God's presence) it is no surprise that all the items of sanctuary furniture should be within sight.

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Ron--does this mean that you totally reject EGW's writings on the subject--where she emphatically explains the movement from the Holy to the MHP in 1844? How do you explain that? Since the veil was removed at the cross, was there two rooms? Why does this affect the time period/element? Thanx for calling me a 'scholar'--not sure I qualify---but sure do study a lot.

And just so you know, the Scriptural evidence is overwhelming that Rev 4-5 is Pentecost, and that the throneroom scene is the enthronement of Christ.

One of the points here is that the seals have been interpreted as solely judgments, where I see them as the efforts of all heaven spreading the gospel on the earth. The seraphs (cherubim) and the horses, (Zechariah's messengers to the earth; both heavenly and earthly) are pictured as the color of the horses and chariots in intensity and then, resulting judgments pictured in the trumpets; whose purpose is to separate, purge, cleanse, and sanctify.

This is the effort of the entire church age from Pentecost to the Day of Atonement. The study of the sanctuary and the feasts of Israel unlocks all these keys, as John wrote his manual in accordance with that understanding.

Has there been misunderstanding and descension? Of course! Read the SDA commentary on Revelation--they are waffling all over the place--they simply did not know time periods or interpretation of events, except to call Rev 10 a prophecy of the SDA movement and Rev 13 a condemnation of Catholicism and the United States.

Let me ask anyone--where are the modern Moslems, which control 1/3 of the earth? They are certainly not in any commentary I've read. I find them in the 5th trumpet, but only face ridicule to point that out. Interesting that their beginning was a Jesuit movement which imploded. It hasn't stopped; we will soon have 5 Catholics (and Yalees) on the US Supreme Court---Scripture must be fulfilled to propell the 2nd advent, even as Christ told His disciples that must happen to conclude the first.

I lavish in the knowledge and understanting that Rev 4-5 is Pentecost in heaven, and those in my study group; from California, Toronto, Philippines, New Zealand, Australia, Virginia, Ohio, Florida and New York will continue to show our study; as part of the 3 angels message. Did you know that Ellen White states that the first 2 angels messages are before 1844 and that the 3rd started in 1844? She also states that the 1st seal was opened during the 1st historical church in the first century.

There is so much more--I only wrote a very brief excerpt of years of study=---and to argue with those whose mind is long entrenched in their own beliefs is fruitless. Certainly the candlesticks are shown is Rev 4, described as the Holy Spirit, or the seven spirits of God, even though this has been a point of disagreement, even to those who deny the existence of the Holy Spirit. And this has been a cause of arguing rooms and which one. I actually think this is the work of Satan, to remove attention from Christ and His work for us there-----there is no end to this---but I personally try not to attack anyone whom our Savior has died for, and continues to plead for their salvation.

[Ron Lambert]

Gus, you cited the opinions of certain scholars to justify your position.

As for the passage or movement of Christ from the Holy Plzce to the Most Holy Place, you do not need a veil. The furniture of the sanctuary still is arranged into two centers of activity. Many houses have dining rooms adjoining kitchens, with no separating wall, and we have no difficulty knowing which room we are in. God can set up His throne anywhere He wants to, and since Ezekiel says it has wheels, it can certainly move. Besides, what really matters is that there where two phases to Christ's ministry, as foreshadowed in the Daily Services vs. annual Day of Atonement services. Who knows how closely the reality in Heaven corresponds to the copy that was constructed on earth? Daniel seven and Revelation five speak of books being opened. The original languages actually meant scrolls. But surely the technology of Heaven is more advanced than using books or scrolls. Daniel and John were shown something that would be comprehensible in their function. Had they been shown super computers with digital disk storage devices (or molecular memory chips, or whatever), they likely would have had no clue what they were looking at, and they would not have been able to write down anything we could make sense of today. Let's at least allow that the sanctuary in Heaven is vastly bigger than the one on earth was, since it holds over a hundred million angels, plus who knows how many other intelligent beings.

[there buster]

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That confirms that the events of Revelation four and five take place in the sanctuary in Heaven, before the throne of God.

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I asked if the sanctuary furniture would be significant. I take it your answer is "Yes?"

If so, what items are mentioned, and where?

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I would suggest to you that the laver was represented by the "sea of glass like unto crystal" (Rev. 4:6.) Note that the laver was also called a "sea" and a "brass sea" or "brazen sea" (see for example 2 Kings 25:13, 16; 1 Chron. 18:8; Jer. 52:17, 20).

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Yes, I am quite aware of that. That's why I said "possible exception." Mainly, I'm not interested in contesting that issue either way right now.

[Ron Lambert]

Ed, you said before:

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"Well, how about this? Every item of Sanctuary furniture is mentioned in Revelation, with the possible exception of the laver.

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"Would those mentions be significant, do you think?"

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Now you ask: "If so, what items are mentioned, and where?"

I thought you already affirmed that such items are there, now you are asking if they are there. What question are you really trying to ask?

[there buster]

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I thought you already affirmed that such items are there, now you are asking if they are there. What question are you really trying to ask?

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I'm just trying to take it slowly, a step at a time. It's my experience that errors creep in when we make jumps. Your answer said

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it is no surprise that all the items of sanctuary furniture should be within sight.

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"Within sight" is not clear to me. In the same chapter? Within a certain number of verses?

I'm wondering what you're referring to, and in what verses it can be found?

The more misunderstandings we can overcome in the beginning, the greater the opportunity to find common ground later. Lots of "discussions" at CA involve miscommunication, differing assumptions, and a tangle of misplaced arguments that never get settled. I'm trying to avoid that.

[Gus Foster]

In one of my web-sites which is about 15 years old:

http://home.neo.rr.com/sharefact/

I stated the following about adhereing to John's structures and the importance of following them:

Literary Structures in the book of Revelation:

Soteriology - doctrine of salvation through Jesus Christ

Ecclesiology - fulfillment of the church (of Christ)

Eschatology - theology on death, judgment,and future state of the soul.

Chiastic - parellel happenings, given in sevens (as in our study)

Septenary - structures of seven as in the books of genesis and Revelation

Prolepsis - advance answers to objections - (John states conclusions and then explains events)(cf attributes of Christ in Rev. 1:12-16 used in Rev. 2&3 churches)(cf Rev. 4&5 throneroom scenes directs seven seals) (cleansing)which become the seven trumpets (judgment and separation) Relative Induction-used in this study, first useage of words & phrases

Rev 4-5 has several of these; and the one I think to concentrate on is central to Christ. We see here a picture of the Lamb slain, certainly a picture of the result of the cross, and the beginning of the teaching of the gospel.

The opening of the first seal, the first spreading of the gospel, brought about judgment in that as the sharp two-edged sword, the gospel itself judges. We have the same time period and result in Rev 12--the Son being born and snatched up to heaven---the brief mention of Christ's earth experience, but then the scene changes to the church and its history.

One thing about the 7 churches; they are seven-fold; a complete picture, and all attributes relate to every Christian in any time period. The same thing is true with the seals; the gospel, and then the effort of heaven and earth, even unto death, to bring a human into salvation. The trumpets are both literal and spiritual, with earthly results and eternal rewards--each one covering both the spiritual and literal circunmstance and result.

The laver is not mentioned in heaven because the killing was outside, not in the sanctuary, thus cleansiong of the blood was not required, but the cleansing of the souls is the whole work of the heavenly sanctuary.

And pictured in the 5th seal is those that have been martyred asking: How long, Lord, before You begin judgment on the inhabitants of the earth. That is certaily not condoning understanding that no one was found worthy in Rev 5 as judgment had started. Many have inquired about others studying the text: I hope and pray for the same!

[Ron Lambert]

Rather than making vast effort to read extensive things into the text of Revelation, things like alleged literary structures, dialectical structures, etc.. I prefer to limit myself strictly to getting out of the text what it actually says, interpreted according to sound, OBJECTIVE methods. This is what sound exegesis is all about. As Peter admonished us: "Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation." (2 Pet. 1:20) In other words Inspiration forbids us to interpret the prophecies of Scripture by reading anything subjective into them.

Things like various alleged structures really depend upon the assumptions you are making about what are valid interpretations, therefore it is circular reasoning to use such arguments to prove your interpretation.

[there buster]

Literary structure is not conjecture. There may be more than one way to look at the literary structure, but there are not an infinite number of ways.

Literary structure is descriptive.

I'm just asking a very simple question about the appearance of the items of furniture. Can we agree where and what those are?

I suggest a minimum list.

Lampstand/candlestick. . . . . . . Ch.1

Altar of burnt offering. . . . . . 6:9

Altar of incense . . . . . . . . . 8:1

Ark of the Covenant. . . . . . . . 11:19

These are the only explicit mentions I can think of off the top of my head.

[Ron Lambert]

Ed, did you note my argument about circular reasoning in regard to the alleged structures? The Ecclesiology structure in particular depends upon whether or not you view the seven letters, seven seals, and seven trumpets as applying to the entire Christian era from Pentecost to now. Making that assumption, then making up a structure based on that assumption, and using it to prove the assumption, is circular reasoning. The whole thing collapses if in fact the letters, seals, and trumpets actually have primary application to the time of the end, as many elements in the text explicitly as well as implicitly indicate.

Similarly, the assumptions you make affect the way you would describe the chiastic structure, as well as all the others at one point or another. You have to arrive at a valid interpretation of the prophecy based upon sound exegesis of the text first and exclusively by that means. Only then can you rightly trace any kinds of structures.

While literary structures in Scripture may be somewhat interesting, at least in the sense of artistic appreciation, they have nothing to do with establishing the correct interpretation of anything.