Rev 4 & 5; Pentecost or 1844

[Gus Foster]

Striving to allocate dates for each passage of Revelation is not an easy task; as any student can witness the disparity among the scholarly discussions. I have had a time with the 3 angels messages, as to time.

Adventists traditionally place Rev 14:6-12 as occurring after 1844. After much study, I, and I without committee ascent, find the time to be: the 1st angel at the time of Pentecost, the 2nd at the beginning of the reign of the church of Rome, and the 3rd beginning in 1844.

Jesus said in John 12:31; "Now is the time for judgment on this world, now the prince of this world will be driven out".

This, of course, is a reference to the cross; the cross as the judgment. And when I find the cross in Revelation, it is at the beginning of the church age; Rev 1:99 ff; Rev 5:6; Rev 6:1; Rev 12:5; Rev 14:6--all at the same time with the gospel message. This makes understanding more clear for the student, and more agruementative for the nay-sayer.

[Ron Lambert]

Gus, in Revelation 14:7, the proclamation of the angel is in the present tense: "the hour of His judgment is come." This prophecy was given by Jesus to John more than 60 years after the Cross. Common sense dictates that the judgment spoken of here is not the one Christ spoke of in John 12:31.

The Bible speaks of many judgments. Gus, you need to determine which judgment is being spoken of in any given text. Daniel chapter seven clearly tells us of a judgment that winds up human history and leads to the destruction of the little horn power and Christ's receiving of His kingdom. John 12:31 refers to a decision being made on the part of all those cosmic witnesses who may have still had some lingering sympathies or questions about Lucifer and his rebellion. Using this to dismiss the judgment referred to in the first angel's message would appear to be an attempt to do away with the whole idea of the Pre-Advent, Investigative Judgment.

The core doctrines of Seventh-day Adventism are the cleansing of the sanctuary, the second apartment ministry of Christ, and the Pre-Advent, Investigative Judgment. It is sad that these doctrines are coming under increasing attack both from within and from outside the church. And many church members who do not reject these doctrines outright regard them as unimportant; that of all we teach, these doctrines are the most expendable. But the truth is, these are the core doctrines of our church. If these doctrines go, the church falls. Daniel 8:14 was the genesis of our church, and the message our church was raised up to proclaim is "the hour of His judgment is come." (Rev. 14:7.)

I believe it is largely because of the failure of the church up to now to realize that Revelation 4-5 depicts the Pre-Advent, Investigative Judgment, and that most of Revelation is about this judgment, that the church has left itself so vulnerable to attacks on its core doctrines, especially to attempts to deny and discard the Pre-Advent, Investigative Judgment. This is one of the reasons why the acceptance of the truth that Revelation is about the judgment is so vital to our church at this moment in history.

[Gus Foster]

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I believe it is largely because of the failure of the church up to now to realize that Revelation 4-5 depicts the Pre-Advent, Investigative Judgment, and that most of Revelation is about this judgment, that the church has left itself so vulnerable to attacks on its core doctrines, especially to attempts to deny and discard the Pre-Advent, Investigative Judgment. This is one of the reasons why the acceptance of the truth that Revelation is about the judgment is so vital to our church at this moment in history.

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I hope you have noticed that your central theme of the book of Revelation is and has been judgment, where mine is the gospel:

Ron Rev 4-5 judgment ----- Gus Rev 4-5 gospel/enthronement

Ron Rev 6:1 judgment ----- Gus Rev 6:1 gospel

Ron Rev seals, judgment ----- Gus Rev seals, gospel from Heaven

Ron 1st angel, judgment ----- Gus 1st angel, gospel

Yes, the gospel brings judgment, to separate and perfect God's people, and to separate and judge those who reject.

[Ron Lambert]

Gus, one of the things that shows the value of the interpretation that Rev. 4-5 depicts the judgment is that it does tie together the gospel and the judgment, showing that the doctrine of the judgment is fully in harmony with and reflective of the gospel. Jesus stands for us in judgment. That is the gospel, as well as the doctrine of the judgment.

And notice that the first angel's message of Revelation 14:6, 7, is said to consist of "the everlasting gospel," and then goes on to elaborate what the angel says that comprises the gospel: "Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters."

Thus preaching the judgment is preaching the everlasting gospel. And calling people to return to worship of the Creator is involved, too. Our Creator is our Redeemer.

[Gus Foster]

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Thus preaching the judgment is preaching the everlasting gospel. And calling people to return to worship of the Creator is involved, too. Our Creator is our Redeemer.

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Thank you for that! It could not be any plainer; you advocated teaching judgment to teach the gospel, where I maintain that teaching the gospel brings about judgment.

In Scripture, first the gospel and then judgment: Rom. 1:16-17; gospel and vs 18 ff, judgment; John 3:16; gospel; vs 19, judgment. In the OT God's word always proceeded judgment.

The book of Revelation is the same; gospel and then judgment; gospel and then judgment, etc etc etc. The book centers around Christ, the Lamb, and the cross, either in literal or symbolic terms. Judgment is issued when one rejects or disdains the gospel. John simply presents this in several different ways, from a perspective from earth, and then heaven, and then from earth. When John sees another vision, 'after this', it is not another time period, but another vision, either from earth or heaven.

Oppositon to the gospel invades the church, ignites the pagans, and dictates government action. The picture we see today will only expand and accelerate, and bring about the crisis that will purge and cleanse God's people, and then Jesus will have His cue to appear. What is so great about this is that He wants to come back a lot more than we want Him to---He really wants to!

[Ron Lambert]

Gus, I still must take issue with your contention that the first angel's message of Revelation 14:6, 7 applies to the beginning of the Christian era. I already pointed out that the judgment spoken of here must be different from the one Jesus referred to in John 12:31, since both were spoken in the present tense, and more than 60 years separates the Cross from the time of the writing of Revelation.

I should also point out that it is improper to take Revelation 14 or any part of it out of context. The context is Revelation 13, which in turn is an expansion on the last verse of Revelation 12, which spoke of the dragon going to make war on the remnant of the woman's seed. This war is prosecuted by the wicked as described in chapter 13, with the two beasts and the image to the beast which the world is made to worship, and the mark of the beast which must be received or humans are threatened with boycott and death. This gives rise to the question, "What is the role of the righteous in the final conflict, in the face of the beasts, image to the beast, and mark of the beast brought to view in the previous chapter?"

The answer given is that rather than receiving the mark of the beast, God's people receive the special, end-time seal of God, spoken of first in Revelation chapter 7, concerning the same 144,000. The question that follows that is "How do they get this seal?" The answer is given in the three angels' messages. They are the ones who heed (and also participate in the giving) of these final warning messages to all the earth. The everlasting gospel is linked to the judgment, and to restored worship of the Creator as our Redeemer. Building on this, the second angel calls the faithful out of church communions that have been compromised to the extent that they have fallen under the power of Satanic agencies. Finally the explicit warning is given against receiving the mark of the beast. All these things, all three angels' messages, apply to the final conflict in the time of the end. That is what the context tells us is being spoken of.

[Gus Foster]

Ron--you insist on making the book of Revelation into a chronological forum; which it is not. You are literally following the text of Revealtion as to happenings in order of their occurrence. I'm not sure how many ways I can say this; to do that is to ignore the structures of the book. There is a call in Rev 18:1-8 that replicates the call of Rev 14:8; even though John describes this as 'another angel', whom EGW has called the 4th angel. The call is to come out of Babylon, even though the prior chapters have closed probabion and issued judgments.

You are still hung up in Rev 4:1; 'after this', and put it at a later time than the church age of Rev 2-3. If you do that, then you fall in line with those who close the church age at the end of Rev 3, even though you choose to extend it past 1844.

Rev 12:1 is before the church age, before the birth of the Lamb; totally out of chronological order, because it fits into the chisasm and the prolepsis.

For example, Rev 7 list the qualities of the 12 tribes of Israel whom 'have come out of the great tribulation' and this is before the seven trumpets of Rev 8-11. Are you saying that the great tribulation is over before the trumpets? Once again, by literalizing the order of the book, you can join thousands of others who illustrate scenarios that stretch the intention and purpose of the gospel and its response.

One of the reasons that the Revelation Seminars are successful at the offset, and then loose many of its 'converts' back to the world is because it teaches the 'Dante's Inferno" approach, which is the fear tactic, which is not the deep-seated conviction of the gospel. That is why Jesus said the Comforter will 'convict of sin, righteousness and judgment' (creation, fall, righteousness of Christ, and man's sinfulness); which then requires 'cleansing from the blood of the Lamb'; Rev 5:9; 6:11; 7:14; 12:11; 16:15 and others that refer to the blood of the Lamb.

As long as you insist on making this book chonological, discussions are very limited and unfruitful.

[Ron Lambert]

Gus, you are ignoring the fact that all the prophecies in Revelation are thematically linked. There is a clearly discernable context. The theme that links chapters 1-19 is the pre-advent, investigative judgment. Chapter 20 is the executive judgment at the end of the millenium, and chapters 21-22 describe the reward of the saints.

You are not correct in saying I see all the prophecies in Revelation as arranged in chronological order. I have frequently noted that the linkage is thematic, usually answering questions raised previously, which often requires going back over the same period of time again from different viewpoints. We see this, for example, in the relation of the seals and trumpets. But there is a definite order that can be seen, even though it is not strictly chronological.

You, like many others, focus on the words "after this" at the beginning of Revelation 4:1, and you conveniently overlook the clause at the end of the verse that says, "...I will show you things which must take place after this." This very definitely does indicate an inescapable chronological succession of events. What John is shown in Revelation 4-5 must be seen as taking place future from John's vantage point, which was 60 plus years after the Cross. You cannot escape that by any rationalization about what "after this" might mean.

This makes even more sense when you recognize that the prophecy of the seven churches, which is what came immediately before, portrays all the churches of modern Christendom at the time when they are about to enter the investigative judgment. Then of course, after this, comes that judgment. Thus Revelation 4:1 is a perfect connector between the seven churches and the judgment of chapters four and five.

By the way, just to be clear, the seven trumpets cover the same period of time as the seven seals. Both series of prophecies depict events that take place during the final conflict between the wicked and the people of God in the time of the end. Revelation 9:15 (during the sixth trumpet) is the universal death decree, which signals the approximate close of probation.

[archierieus]

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Gus Foster said:

Dave---I am sorry that you have decided to discontinue to add to the discussion of this thread . . . you should reconsider.

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Thank-you, Gus, for expressing that, and for your interest. My difficulty, quite simply, is twofold: firstly, I do not see a sound, objective basis for the positions taken; and, secondly, that seems to be the comfort-level for this thread. That would drive me bonkers!! I would welcome the opportunity to participate in such a discussion, where the agreed basis is sound exegesis. There is a lot to be discovered by doing so.

Regards, Dave

[Gus Foster]

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You, like many others, focus on the words "after this" at the beginning of Revelation 4:1, and you conveniently overlook the clause at the end of the verse that says, "...I will show you things which must take place after this." This very definitely does indicate an inescapable chronological succession of events. What John is shown in Revelation 4-5 must be seen as taking place future from John's vantage point, which was 60 plus years after the Cross. You cannot escape that by any rationalization about what "after this" might mean.

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Well, Ron, just as kind as I can muster, after reading over this thread and several others on Revelation, all have pretty much told you the same thing. Let me quote a doctor on my study committee: John is sitting on Patmos, and his drugery is interupted by the angel, and then he sees Jesus in vision on earth. After that vision (and probably after he has recorded the first 3 chapters), he has another vision. In this one he peers into heaven, as did Stephen, and others, and he receives this vision in 96 AD, and will see the things that will happen after this, after the time of seeing the vision, not after the church age.

In fact, if you maintain your persistance of the time element, after this would not start until after that church age. The church age has started, and John reveals that in Rev 12:1 ff, and in verse 7 one sees the cross, the judgment 'of this world', thus this time area of 30 Ad to 96 Ad is all inclusive, it is happening now, as do the churches, seals and trumpets. The historical view is somewhat confusing because it insists on assigning exact time periods and happenings to all the given sevens, which is simply a truncated version of John's intent.

Once again, the meaning of Rev 1-14 had different priorities for each Christian of every age. To claim remnantcy and exclusiveness for this book and other prophetic passages is incredibally syphoned. God's people are not in 'one' church, but all of them. And the seven-fold church is those who follow Him, in every way, and judgment is welcomed because it makes His people more in line with Him.

Why would you think that persauvive conversation would change that result of years of study, with prayer and much consultation?

In the 90's AD John saw the history of the rest of time, as did Daniel; the difference being that John's writings have all been 'uncovered', revealed, and there remains no more mystery. As we watch the governments of the world come together on common ground, we shall see the dictates of conscience being enforced. It could happen with a crisis today, or any day, but it does seem like the 4 angels are still holding back that strife to give God's people more time to share and cleanse.

I would hope that our emphasis could be more on becoming more like Jesus than to argue over times and dates, which the Bible pretty well says that it is on a 'need to know' (John 21:22) basis.

My whole thing is on the 3rd Revelation; 1: The revelation of Jesus Christ; which is Christ being revealed; 2: which is Christ revealing to us; and 3: which is Christ being revealed in His people. This third revelation is being ignored by the whole Christian community------------Christ is revealing everything in those whom are willing to forget self and live for Him, in this life and the next. Where are these 'treasured possessions'?

[melvin mccarty]

I have a question for you gentlemen. We are told that a "multitude" were resurected with Christ and are now in glory. Then there were at least three others who are named and who knows how many more may already be in heaven that we are not told about. Is there a need for an "investigation" in the case of these people? Whatever your answer you should consider the implications.

Seems to me that our assertions and interpretations need to be plentifuuly sprinkled with words like "possibly" and "maybe" and "as I see it".

How anyone can take the extreemly brief sketches in the 7 seals and expand them into a doctrine is way beyond me.

mel

[Ron Lambert]

Melvin, Matthew 27:52, 53 tells us: "The tombs were opened, and many bodies of the saints who had fallen asleep were raised; and coming out of the tombs after His resurrection they entered the holy city and appeared to many." This does not tell us how many were raised. It says "many," but the impression given is that it is not a huge multitude.

As you are probably aware, some people think these resurrected saints, along with Enoch, Elijah, and Moses, comprise the "24 elders" menioned in Revelation 4-5. (Thus only 21 saints total would have been raised at the time of Christ's resurrection.) This may seem like a clever deduction; however, I do not agree with it.

The King James Version goes by the ancient manuscripts that insert "us" in Rev. 5:9, 10: "for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth." This gives the impression that the 24 elders are humans. However, other translations, such as the New American Standard Bible and New International Version, go by other ancient manuscripts that instead have the word "them": "for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation. You have made them to be a kingdom and priests to our God; and they will reign upon the earth." (The word "men" is used in verse 9 because the original text implies it, according to grammatical rules of Greek.) This tranalation distances the 24 elders from humanity, by speaking of humans in the third person, making it evident that the 24 elders are not humans.

So we have here a situation where the ancient manuscripts do not agree. Some make the 24 elders humans, others indicate they are not. At some point, some scribe must have taken it upon himself to "correct" or "clarify" the passage when he was copying it. But which is the mistaken alteration, and which is the way it was originally?

My reasoning for the choice I make is that because Revelation 4-5 depicts the Pre-Advent, Investigative Judgment, in which it is to be determined who is to be a part of Christ's kingdom and be entitled to wear a crown and share Christ's throne, it would therefore be inappropriate for any humans to preside over their own judgment, already sitting on thrones and already wearing crowns.

But even if my position on Rev. 4-5 is not correct, and it is not talking about the judgment, but rather some ceremony that took place in Heaven much earlier, near the beginning of the Christian era, the same problem still remains. How would any humans already have received crowns and thrones, when such rewards for humans are determined in the judgment? Since this view of Rev. 4-5 puts the judgment far in the future, it is even more of a difficulty for the view that the 24 elders are humans.

I definitely conclude that the 24 elders are not humans. Who they are is open to conjecture. My guess is that they are other patriarchs similar to Adam on other worlds. This in turn may suggest that God has only created 24 intelligent races (not counting angels), and He perhaps designs that they should divide up the whole universe into 24 segments, for each race to explore and study and play with as they wish. Or it could be that these are selected representatives who rotate among the multitude of intelligent races on other worlds.

Since we are told in Rev. 5:11 that the Heavenly scene includes over a hundred and two million angels (other translations are not so literal, and translate this as "myriads and myriads"), and since we believe that there are other intelligent races on other worlds, therefore we should expect there to be some place for their representatives in the Heavenly gathering around God's throne in Rev. 4-5. The 24 elders look to me like good candidates for the ones who play this role.

[melvin mccarty]

Regardless of exactly what "many" means those people didn't have to wait until after 1844 A D for their cases to be decided. Right?

mel

[Ron Lambert]

Melvin, the purpose of the judgment is not for God to decide the cases of believers, it is for God to show the witnesses throughout the cosmos that He is just in the decisions He has made. Who do you think wrote/recorded all the books that are consulted in the judgment? Thus in a sense it is God who is on trial, in order to answer all the charges made against Him by Satan. And the judgment is also intended to give assurance to angels and other unfallen, intelligent beings in the cosmos that it will be safe to allow redeemed humans into heavenly society.

When the judgment in heaven moves on to consider the cases of those currently living on earth, there will be trials and tests on earth, bringing the final choice home to every soul to make their final decision for or against God (see Rev. 3:10, where God promises to keep the church of Philadelphia "from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth."--NKJV); thus in a way the last generation judge themselves by showing whose side they are really on.

[melvin mccarty]

I do understand Ron why you sidestep the issue. That is your priviledge. But much of what you just wrote is subjective and lacks plain scritural support...IMHO

mel

[Ron Lambert]

Melvin, I do not believe I was side-stepping your question, I believe I was giving the correct answer.

Hebrews 11:5 tells us that Enoch, who lived before the Flood, was translated to heaven without seeing death. The same was true of the prophet Elijah. And Moses apparently was resurrected shortly after his death, and was taken to heaven. Moses and Elijah came down and appeared with Jesus on the Mount of Transfiguration (see Luke 9:30).

God chose to allow these people into heaven long before the crucifixion of Christ. So, Melvin, would you say that the blood of Christ did not need to be shed so that these people could be saved? Of course it did.

Neither did they have to wait for the Pre-Advent Investigative Judgment for God to choose to allow them into heaven. But despite the fact that they are allowed into heaven, Daniel chapter seven explicitly portrays a judgment that takes place prior to the Second Coming, which results in the destruction of the little horn power. Also Peter told Christians that the judgment is for Christians, as well: "For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?"--1 Peter 4:17 (Peter, like all the apostles, at first thought that Jesus' Second Coming would be only a few years away, perhaps at any time. But later Paul said in 2 Thess. 2:3 that there must come a "falling away" first, so that the "man of sin" might be revealed.}