Rev 4 & 5; Pentecost or 1844

[Amelia]

Revelation 4:2 throne in heaven

4:4 twenty-four other thrones

4:5 seven lamps were blazing

4:6 sea of glass, clear as crystal

8:3 Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar

11:19 19Then God's temple in heaven was opened, and within his temple was seen the ark of his covenant

[there buster]

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While literary structures in Scripture may be somewhat interesting, at least in the sense of artistic appreciation, they have nothing to do with establishing the correct interpretation of anything.

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three points.

1) It sounds like you have decided that literary structure is not part of sound exegesis. If true, it's at least unusual.

2) I'm not certain what that has to do with my simple listing of the sanctuary furniture. Do you dispute the citations, or not?

3) I'm not reading something INTO the text. I'm simply asking what the texts say?

It would be a mistake to assume that I don't know the issues involved.

[there buster]

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Revelation 4:2 throne in heaven

4:4 twenty-four other thrones

4:5 seven lamps were blazing

4:6 sea of glass, clear as crystal

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Although I don't disagree about the symbolism, for right now I'm sticking with explicit mentions.

The "throne" is not explicit in the Sanctuary.

I'm not aware of 24 thrones in the Sanctuary.

So far, we agree on the altar of incense in 8:1?

And the ark of the covenant in 11:19?

What about the candlestick in ch. 1.?

And the altar of burnt offering in 6:9?

[Amelia]

The way it reads to me is that everything is in a room, that I would call the throne room and separate from the temple that houses the ark.

I dont see a reference to a candlestick in ch 1, but there are the 7 golden lampstands. I believe they are the same 7 lamps in 4:5.

[Gus Foster]

Allow me to comment on the structures in Revelation. To my mind, the lack of use of them, and the missuse of them causes all types misunderstanding and incorrect interpretations. There are a myriad of examples; here is one:

The Adventist Review, October 27, 2005, Norman R Gulley's "It's Worth Singiong About"; the author (Ron, he's a traditionist) examines "another look at the time of trouble", using a chiasm to examine Rev 15:3-4. "Lines A deal with the acts of God; lines B with the character of God; and standing as the most important focus of the song, line C focuses on the concept of reverencing God and bringing Him glory."

It is quite possible anyone reader to do justice to this text without the chiasm, but this does more than enhance it; it reveals its full meaning. This pertains to the whole book, and much is missed without it.

I find it extremely interesting that judgment does not begin to be the focal point until Rev 14; where Adventism closed out the reformation period in 1844 and the 3 angels' message started its heralding around theearth.

[Ron Lambert]

But since Elder Gulley is wrong in not recognizing the judgment in Revelation 4-5, that has to affect many of his other conclusions.

Personally, I have yet to see any example where analysis of chiastic structure contributed anything meaningful, or was in the slightest way useful, in understanding the meaning of Bible prophecy. Such subjective analyses do not constitute exegesis, and I maintain that exegesis is the only right way to approach Bible prophecy. All other methods of interpreting Bible prophecy invariably at some point violate 2 Peter 1:20, which states that no Bible prophecy is of any private interpretation.

[LifeHiscost]

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Ron Lambert said:

All other methods of interpreting Bible prophecy invariably at some point violate 2 Peter 1:20, which states that no Bible prophecy is of any private interpretation.

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Not wishing to put any disrepute upon your conclusion, Ron,(I'm in full agreement with your last above), but with the full knowledge that the vast number of people who will at last arrive at a full knowledge of the prophetic utterances found in the Scriptures, will never have found the time or resources to attend training courses necessary to develop exegesis as you seem to have. It makes me wonder what method of study the Holy Spirit wishes us to follow in order

better to arrive at the correct conclusions He wishes to reveal.

[:"red"] "But if any of you lacks wisdom, let him ask of God, who gives to all generously and without reproach, and it will be given to him." [/] James 1:5 NASB

Keep the faith!

[Ron Lambert]

Lifehiscost, please don't be afraid of the word "exegesis" just because it sounds like a 25 cent theological term. You do not need a Phd. MDiv, or any academic degree to know how to employ sound methods of exegesis to Scripture. The idea of exegesis is to get out of the text what is really there. You go by what the text says. You take it in context; you compare many other translations (if you do not know the original languages yourself), and above all you compare how the same words and terms and synonyms are used elsewhere in Scripture. For that you need a concordance, or a good computer search program. Really, all you need is the ability to read and reason logically. The miracle is in the text, not in any imaginative, scholarly systems of analysis we might dream up in our minds. You will not learn how to receive light from God's word by any course of study in the Theological Seminary; you will only learn that as your study God's word in cooperation with His Spirit, as you go about it in a reasonable and disciplined manner. This is why few if any real advances in knowledge of the truth of God's word have ever been made by learned scholars. Their learning frequently becomes a distraction for them. Their pride in their own intellectualism gets in their way. Almost always, such people turn out to be the chief adversaries and hindrances to real advancement in knowledge of Bible truth.

[Gus Foster]

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you will only learn that as your study God's word in cooperation with His Spirit, as you go about it in a reasonable and disciplined manner. This is why few if any real advances in knowledge of the truth of God's word have ever been made by learned scholars. Their learning frequently becomes a distraction for them. Their pride in their own intellectualism gets in their way. Almost always, such people turn out to be the chief adversaries and hindrances to real advancement in knowledge of Bible truth.

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These comments do not surprise me, but I am disappointed. Only those who have their own agenda outside of traditonal Adventism would make such a claim. There is no rationale nor presentation to combat such selfish intellect. This would compare to Walter Rea's "the White Lie".

Not only do these type of accusastions deny Biblical truth, they deny eternal life to those whom they attack. Shame on me for responding, and shame on others who continue on such courses.

[LifeHiscost]

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Ron Lambert said:

The idea of exegesis is to get out of the text what is really there.

You go by what the text says. You take it in context; you compare many other translations (if you do not know the original languages yourself), and above all you compare how the same words and terms and synonyms are used elsewhere in Scripture. For that you need a concordance, or a good computer search program. Really, all you need is the ability to read and reason logically. The miracle is in the text, not in any imaginative, scholarly systems of analysis we might dream up in our minds.

you will only learn that as your study God's word in cooperation with His Spirit, as you go about it in a reasonable and disciplined manner.

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Thank you, Ron, for your response. That which you posted above was the part from which I received the most good. My post was not written for myself, as I have with God's grace, developed a very satisfactory method of study for me. It probably fits more into what you have described as "in cooperation with the Holy Spirit"

However recognizing that the greater part of the present day adherents to the love of Jesus Christ will never have access to scholarly wisdom in the "schools of the prophets", it does seem necessary that God will, and has, chosen other methods to reveal Himself and His plans, especially as we see a real recognition that we are living in the time that EGW suggested, "the last events would be rapid ones".

And I also wished to mention that the need for principles of faith, while being quite obvious to believers in Christ,

are not narrowed to a set of circumstances that can only be applied to particular context. This is not to say context isn't often important. It merely expresses my opinion that the need of some to limit meaning to God's word, only when it it fits into certain contexts, is more apt to hinder than to help individuals who depend on the Holy Spirit's guidance for revealed Truth.

[:"red"] "Let me hear Your lovingkindness in the morning;For I trust in You;Teach me the way in which I should walk;For to You I lift up my soul." [/]

Psalm 143:8 NASB

Blessings!

[Ron Lambert]

Gus, you seem to have taken offense at my statement that God leads those whom He judges worthy to be lead, according to His criteria, and not those who have tried to storm heaven by means of their own vain application to human courses of study. You accuse me of advocating a selfish intellectualism; but that is precisely what I am saying is wrong with those learned scholars who almost always stand in the way of every advancement of truth.

Let me repeat as simply as I can. When we study God's Word, the miracle is in the text, not in our intellects. Do you resist that? Would you prefer that people respect and defer to the judgment and give more weight to the opinions of people who possess academic degrees, regardless of whether or not they show real maturity in spiritual knowledge of Bible truth?

When I was a theology student at Andrews many years ago, one thing that I found most acutely disappointing was how the Bible was treated as just another textbook in my theology classes. I could tell something was seriously wrong with the whole academic approach to studying the Bible. And in the years since then, I have found that the ones who could always be counted on to stand in the way of any new insight into Bible prophecy and contend blindly to hold on to whatever was the majority traditional view, were those who were considered learned scholars. Fortunately, now and then a learned scholar is able to break away from his academic conditioning and think for himself, and he learns to approach the study of Scripture the way God requires, and he can then make good contributions to the advancement of present truth. Human pride is always the chief obstacle to advancing in knowledge of the truth.

But on the whole, it is no different in the church now than it was in 1888, when the two men whom God chose to bring the light that would end the work, what Ellen G. White said would lead to the Loud Cry if it had been accepted and followed up, were laymen. A.T. Jones and E.J. Waggoner were entirely self-educated when it came to the Bible. And they were opposed by the church leaders, the learned scholars. Were it not for that opposition, we would be in heaven now.

The Lord choses to humble those who are proud, those who think that their positions of authority or their academic degrees or their vain systematic theologies or useless theories about literary structure make them wise and worthy to be followed by others. He chooses people like A.T. Jones to communicate new light to the people, and passes by the self-important learned.

[Ron Lambert]

Here is a statement by Ellen G. White that conveys the sentiment I am trying to express:

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Those who allow prejudice to bar the mind against the reception of truth cannot receive the divine enlightenment. Yet, when a view of Scripture is presented, many do not ask, Is it True,--in harmony with God's word? but, By whom is it advocated? and unless it comes through the very channel that pleases them, they do not accept it. So thoroughly satisfied are they with their own ideas, that they will not examine the Scripture evidence, with a desire to learn, but refuse to be interested, merely because of their prejudices.

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The Lord often works where we least expect him; he surprises us by revealing his power through instruments of his own choice, while he passes by the men to whom we have looked as those through whom light should come. God desires us to receive the truth upon its own merits,--because it is truth.

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The Bible must not be interpreted to suit the ideas of men, however long they may have held these ideas to be true. We are not to accept the opinion of commentators as the voice of God; they were erring mortals like ourselves. God has given reasoning powers to us as well as to them. We should make the Bible its own expositor.

--

Gospel Workers,

pp. 125, 126

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[Gus Foster]

It is time for a post-script on this subject; the original subject of Rev 4 & 5 being Pentecost or 1844; Scripture is quite elaborate and plain on the subject.

In Acts 2 Peter steps to the forefront and quotes Joel 2:18-32 in fulfillment of that propechy happening that day. Then he quotes Ps 16:8-11 and finally Ps 110:1 in showing that Christ has assumed the throne in heaven. He uses David's quotations of being on the right hand, that of station and power. The story of Joseph and Jacob in Gen 45ff example this setting---sitting on the right hand.

This is upheld in Scripture in Lev 23, where Moses predicts the entire life and ministry of Jesus. It is the feast days; and Peter's annologue is from Passover, First Fruits, and Pentecost. As you study this and relate it to Acts, one can see that Jesus rose to heaven on the 40th day and on the 50th, the day after the 7 sabbaths, He assumed the rulership of the universe. The wave sheafs represented those who ascended with Christ, and EGW in Desire of Ages, as well as in Acts of the Apostles (pg 38, 39) describes the celebration in heaven between the 40th and 50th days.

There are other references in COL and other writings about this time period. At the ascention to the throne, Christ released the Spirit as His first act as ruler to the earth and Pentecost took place. This was acheived by the preaching of the Word, the quoting of Scripture; not by tricks used today in churches to try to attract some attention.

Pentecost is what happened in heaven, that our Lord and Savior and High Priest assumed His heavenly duties to bring the rest of His people to a time and place and condition to join Him by His throne.

[melvin mccarty]

Hello Ron. You wrote that if it had not been for the opposition to Jones and Waggoner We would be in heaven now. Think my friend, actually WE probably would not have been born. Would that be preferable? Maybe there a still larger picture than what EGW saw. I doubt that the "end of time" has much to do with human effort.

mel

[John317]

So, what exactly happened in 1844 in heaven? Jim

[John317]

What then is the significance and importance of 1844 and afterwards for the people on the earth? What difference does it make? Is Baptist and Methodist and evangelical preaching on an equality with SDA preaching when it comes to helping people on earth prepare for the Second Coming? Do SDAs have anything of vital importance to say to the world that is not being said by all the other Christians? Jim

[John317]

Ellen White wrote that the Second Coming could have happened some time between the 1880s and the end of the first decade of the 20th century.

It's important to understand that no matter when Jesus comes, it will always be true that if He waited a few years longer, there would be people born who won't be born because Jesus came before they were born. Yet it is obvious that He MUST come some time and that when he does, He will make it impossible for some people to be born. But should he for that reason keep delaying His coming? Obviously not.

When we say "we would have been in heaven," it should be evident that we mean "we Chrstians," and not each one of us personally and individually.

The Bible makes it clear that the timing of the Second Coming has a lot to do with human activities, both in the negative and in the positive sense. It has very much to do with what's going on in the true church as well as in counterfeit Christianity. When the true church is prepared for the Second Coming, having recieved the latter rain, and having given the last warning message, God will allow the other events to happen. Therefore, it is clear that what happens within the church is much more important than what happens in the world. God waits for us to let Him form His character in us and for us to be completely settled into the truth as it is in Jesus before He allows the events of Revelation 15 and 16 to happen. It's because of His love that Jesus waits. Jim

[John317]

I believe that one of the main reasons Jesus waits is for hundreds of millions to hear the message of salvation clearly and for them to make up their minds whether to accept that message or reject it, and for others within the false churches and false religions to come out of those organizations and join those who are keeping the commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus. Yet the church must be purified in order for that to happen. And so far, the church is full of people who are either sitting on the fence or who are even on Satan's side of the controversy. Some major events will happen that will cleanse the church, causing millions to come into the church to serve God truly while millions of others leave and join the ranks of those serving Satan. Only heaven knows for sure who are on His side and who is on Satan's side. Our lives and the record of our lives show. They are being examined closely in heaven right now. Whose side of the great controversy are we really on? Jim

[Clio]

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John317 said:

I believe that one of the main reasons Jesus waits is for hundreds of millions to hear the message of salvation clearly and for them to make up their minds whether to accept that message or reject it, and for others within the false churches and false religions to come out of those organizations and join those who are keeping the commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus. Yet the church must be purified in order for that to happen. And so far, the church is full of people who are either sitting on the fence or who are even on Satan's side of the controversy. Some major events will happen that will cleanse the church, causing millions to come into the church to serve God truly while millions of others leave and join the ranks of those serving Satan. Only heaven knows for sure who are on His side and who is on Satan's side. Our lives and the record of our lives show. They are being examined closely in heaven right now. Whose side of the great controversy are we really on? Jim

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False Churches? Which might those be? I'd like to understand the parameters you are placing around your statements. False religions I believe you to mean any that do not recognize Jesus as the Son of the Most High, His blood and death the atonement for our sins, resurrected and ascended in glory.

Also when you specify "the church" and the cleansing of "the church" are you talking about a specific church or the Body of Christ, The Bride?

Thanks in advance.

Clio

[Gus Foster]

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I believe that one of the main reasons Jesus waits is for hundreds of millions to hear the message of salvation clearly and for them to make up their minds whether to accept that message or reject it, and for others within the false churches and false religions to come out of those organizations and join those who are keeping the commandments of God and have the faith of Jesus.

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For many who do not believe that the SDA church is the last day church, the final church in the age of the reformation, it should be noted that the criteria for a righteous church is only the teaching about Jesus life, death and resurrection, and may or may not include His present ministry in heaven.

One of the major reasons that the North American Adventist church is diminishing in power and attendence is because many no longer teach nor believe the text of Rev 14:6-12 applies , since 'there are saved in every church'. So why call them out? And call them out to what?

Although it is true that there should be an effort to teach the entire Bible truth to the whole world, the calling out of Bablyon is the calling out of 666, the number of 'man', and not just 'a man'. I Cor 2:14 describes this man, one who does not grasp or relate to Jesus in any way. Thus, the calling out of Babylon is predominately the calling out of self; to replace self with the mind and will of Christ in the consciousness of His people every minute of their lives.

I believe that Christ's delay is now being caused by our 'selves'; which interfere with His will in us. Purification, cleansing, purging is absolutely the answer, and it is clearer and clearer this will only be accomplished by tragedy, crisis, and turmoil.

[archierieus]

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Ron Lambert said:

Please note that the first phrase says: "AFTER these things." After what things? What has just preceded is the letters to the seven churches. And if anyone wishes to claim the word "after" merely means this is the next vision in the series of visions John saw, look at the last clause in the verse: "I will show you what must take place after these things." This can leave no question that the vision that comes next, in chapters 4 and 5, pertains to events that transpire after "these things," which can only refer to the letters to the seven churches.

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Very interesting. I, too, have recently done a study on this very question. I came to a different conclusion. In v. 1, John is speaking from his perspective. IOW, after he had seen the first vision, that of the seven churches. As you mentioned, Ron, John is now given a second vision. Scripture does not indicate how long a period of time elapsed between the first and the second vision. But, clearly, it was a separate vision, which was given after the first vision.

I also perceive one possible source of confusion about this verse. Specifically, Ron, you quote the angel's words in reference to things which "must take place after these things." NASB) Okay, the TR says, meta tauta. This is variously translated as 'after this' (NKJV for example) or 'after these things' (NASB, for example) Which version is correct? That always makes for interesting research!

Yet, that would seem immaterial to a resolution of the question. Why? Because the vision about the seven churches addressed EXISTING churches and EXISTING situations in those churches AT THE TIME OF THE VISION. Regardless of any secondary or historical application, from John's perspective and perhaps personal knowledge of some of the issues, the first vision was PRESENT TENSE. Accordingly, the second vision pertained to things which would occur AFTER that time, whether 'these things' or 'this.'

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This simple historical fact must be kept in mind: Revelation was written in approximately 100 A.D., which was 67 years after the Ascension of Christ. Therefore there is no way it can be maintained that chapters 4 and 5 refer to anything that took place at the Ascension of Christ.

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Ahh, but the construct of the book is 'alpha to omega.' The vision could very easily show events beginning at 'alpha'. There is no requirement that the timing of events in the vision be present--in fact, more often than not, visions pertain to the future. Moses may have had visions of the past, recorded in Genesis. EGW certainly had visions of past events.

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Please note also that there are clear references to a judgment taking place, in verse 2 with the question "who is worthy," and in verses 3 and 4 with the conclusion: "No one was FOUND worthy," and then verses 5 and 9 tell us that the Lamb was FOUND worthy. This is the operation of judgment, and it exactly paralles Daniel 7:9, 10, 13, 14.

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Judgment of whom, and for what purposes? The issue is finding someone worthy to open the book. That is not the issue in Dan. 7. There, the court sat and THE BOOKS (plural) WERE OPENED. The context is the judgment of the little horn power. In fact, that is specifically mentioned in Dan. 7, as well as the executive judgment which would follow. That is an entirely different scene from what is depicted in Rev. 4 and 5.

Regards, Dave

[Gus Foster]

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So, what exactly happened in 1844 in heaven? Jim

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Jim---The answer to this question depends on whom you ask. Adventists tradionally reply with quotes from Ellen White from writings like Great Controversy where she states that Jesus literally moved from the holy place to the most holy place, and that His ministry changed from one of High Priest to that of Judgemnet. I agree with that, but also agree that something happened on earth. Whenever heaven moves, earth responds. The best example of that is Pentecost, when our Lord was coronated, and the result on earth was the pouring out of the Holy Spirit and the ensuing results on earth.

So as Jesus moved to judgement of His people in heaven, the earthly result was that of purging, cleansing and purification of His people on earth. We were to humble ourselves as did Israel during the Day of Atonement, and confess all sin and live in a repentant mode of life. More than that, we can see from our church history that it was a call to accept the righteousness of Christ in our lives, through the understanding of righteousness by faith. Thus, we often quote Gen 15:6 & Hab 2:4 in relation to Rom 1:16,17 as the accepted Adventist (Christian) motif.

It was during this time that EGW penned; "Pray till prayer makes you forget your own wishes and leaves or merges it into God's will. The Divine Wisdom has given us prayer not as a means to obtain the good things of earth, but as a means whereby we learn to do without them; but as a means whereby we become strong to meet it".

We are to strive to quench self and magnify Christ. Along with the Baptist, we must decrease, and He must increase. When we can stop arguing over times and dates and happenings, and surrender our lives openly and completely to Him, then it will become plain what happened in 1844, 1888 and every day in our lives.

[Ron Lambert]

Archierieus, it is really hard for you to explain away what the text so obviously means, isn't it? I think it is high time we stop reading things into the Bible text to suit our own agendas, and start using truly sound methods of exegesis, and let the Word of God say what it really says, and let the chips fall where they may.

I do not believe there is any excuse for anyone to continue trying to deny that Revelation four and five depict the Investigative Judgment in parallel with the judgment scene in Daniel 7. The matter is settled so finally and completely by sound exegesis that there is no more question possible. After the Ascension of Jesus, the single remaining key event of salvation history prior to the Advent is the Investigative Judgment. This is what must happen yet before Jesus can come again. So of course the central theme of Revelation must be the Judgment, and chapters four and five have to depict the Judgment scene.

[archierieus]

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Ron Lambert said:

Archierieus, it is really hard for you to explain away what the text so obviously means, isn't it?

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Excuse me? Yes, the passage has a meaning which appears obvious, but apparently it is different than you are suggesting. Rather than rhetoric, how about responding specifically to the points which I raised in my post? What is your response? As for sound exegesis, I have yet to see that done on this thread. "Exegesis" is a comprehensive process which entails much. Instead, I would characterize what I have seen you present in support of your position, as dialectic. If you are going to talk exegesis, then by all means, let's see some real exegesis. I am looking forward to it.

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I do not believe there is any excuse for anyone to continue trying to deny that Revelation four and five depict the Investigative Judgment in parallel with the judgment scene in Daniel 7. The matter is settled so finally and completely by sound exegesis that there is no more question possible. After the Ascension of Jesus, the single remaining key event of salvation history prior to the Advent is the Investigative Judgment. This is what must happen yet before Jesus can come again. So of course the central theme of Revelation must be the Judgment, and chapters four and five have to depict the Judgment scene.

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Actually, no, the Judgment addresses the entire history of events, including the falling away which Paul warned about. It comes just before the end of the age, beginning on Oct. 22, 1844. The book of Revelation depicts series of events occurring throughout history, which are reviewed in the Judgment.

But, let's see some real exegesis of the passage you referred to in ch. 4.

Regards, Dave

[Gus Foster]

Ron, you and Ed and Robert have some allies in your assessment of Rev 4 & 5. In the 'The Lamb, God's Greatest Gift', assembled by the family of Leslie Hardinge in 2005 from his writings, Hardinge states the 4 living creatures are translated humans, using Rev 5:9 as the basis. He does, however, fall in line with all of the modern SDA scholars and Ellen White in stating that the time of Rev 4 & 5 is on Pentecost. There are several issues at stake here, not just who the creatures are and in what time area, plus the ever present question of judgment.

The first and foremost issue in my mine is Jesus' command of God's people to love one another (refer to John 15:9, 14-17). God's people cannot accost one another, it not possible.

Next, we are all ignorant on the symbolic meanings of Revelation; and ignorance breeds contempt, and then arrogance. Certainly not traits of Christ and His people. There is so much contention amoung our people on prophecy; and who is really to say precisely that "I am right, and you are wrong"? I remember Raymond Cottrell saying that both Desmond Ford and traditonal Adventists were correct when Ford stated that the Investigative Judgment opposes the gospel in every way, where traditionals suported Great Controvery to the last detail. Certainly our teaching that a Christian's name would come up in judgment during his life, and final judgment would be made at that time, irregardless of his further life span should be questioned.

Further, there is this business of literal interprettion of symbolic language. What a basis for error. Does anyone think Jesus looks like the description of Him in Rev 1? Are all of the symbolic images literal? Certainly the 4 living beings in Rev 5 are the same ones in Ezekiel 1. Are they human or archangels? Did a human replace Lucifer? Hardinge says they are Moses, Elijah, Enoch and someone else; who, Abraham, David? WE REALLY DON'T KNOW. I believe they are angels from 3 decades of study on the subject, but that does not affect my eternal destination, nor yours. We know the horses of Rev 6 are messengers from Scripture (Zech 6:5ff--These are the four spirits of heaven, going forthafter standing before the Lord of the earth--vs 7-Go patrol the earth; and in Zech 1:10, these are those whom the Lord has sent to patrol the earth). The point is clear; all of Rev is intrepreted and explained from other Scripture, not from our imagination.

Look at Rev 5:9:

Rev. 5:9 translates literally word for word as follows:

"And they sing a new song, saying, Worthy are You to receive the book, and to open the seals of it, because You slain and purchased the God of us by the blood of You out of every tribe and tongue and people and nation."

This verse is referring to the saints in heaven. Sometimes angels refer to Jesus as the Savior. This does not mean that He is their Savior but that is one of His titles . . . He is the Savior and they are just acknowledging that fact.

I not only have the Greek-English Interlinear Bible but I will be using The Complete Word Study Dictionary of The New Testament by Spiro Zohiates. It is over 1500 pages of defining the Greek words of the NT. Much more complete that Strongs Concordance and dictionary.

The word translated "purchased" is "agorazo". In the times of the Greek and Roman empires the marletplace or as we would say today, 'the mall' was known as 'the agora'. This word derives from that root word. We have been purchased at the main marketplace of the world by Christ. He bought us back. Evidently someone took us all there and sold us to some vendor and Christ went there and bought us back.

The word for 'tribe' is 'phule' is a tribe, race, lineage, or kindred.

The word for 'tongue' is 'glossa' which means a literal language group of people.

The word for 'people' is laos' which means peoples or nations. You remember the last of the seven churches is Laodicea. From two Greek words, laos and dikao meaning the 'judgement of the people". The sin of the Nicolaitans comes from the words 'nikao and laos' meaning 'hierarchy ruling over the people".

The word for nation here is 'ethnos'. We get our word 'ethnic' from that word and it simply means 'ethnic groups'.

All the words were used so as to cover every possibility of human beings. No one can be left out. Everyone is bound to fall into at least one of these categories. Jesus is totally thourough.

The word used on Rev 5:6 for 'living creature' is 'zoon'. Every letter in Greek is pronounced so this word is not zoooooooooooooooooon but is pronounced 'zoh-own'. It has the meaning as follows:

Life, a living creature, an animal. There is a distinction between this and the word 'therion'. Although this class is designated as a thinking animal to indicate that man also is such, this is not done in the NT. The fact that man lives does not make him a zoon, an animal. He is a living creature but not in the sense of non-thinking animals. Similarly, in spite of the faxct that God is living, He is never called a zoon. He is called life itself, as is Jesus Christ, the very source of life. Therion is predominately used of lower animal life and, in the book of Revelation, is used of wicked beasts.

Hardinge does not recognize Rev 5 as the IJ, but just as judgment. He teaches that all the church age is judgment, thus Rev 5 at Pentecost is a continuation of life, even though now enhanced with a greater gift of the Spirit.

The meaning of the scroll might help. Can we find a definition of this scroll with writing on both sides somewhere else in Scripture? Yup! In Zech 5 it contains purging and judgment. Some attribute this to the judgment of Dan 7 & 9; others do not. Hardinge states that Jesus took the book of Dan 7:9, 10, but this is at the start of the church age, brushing aside an IJ. We can find the best explanation of this 'scroll' in Eze 2:9-3:7. It corresponds perfectly with the 'horses' of Zech 1 & 6 and the blowing of the trumpet in Eze 33. This book contains the admonitions of God and the history of the church age. It is plain for my study for me.

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I do not believe there is any excuse for anyone to continue trying to deny that Revelation four and five depict the Investigative Judgment in parallel with the judgment scene in Daniel 7. The matter is settled so finally and completely by sound exegesis that there is no more question possible. After the Ascension of Jesus, the single remaining key event of salvation history prior to the Advent is the Investigative Judgment. This is what must happen yet before Jesus can come again. So of course the central theme of Revelation must be the Judgment, and chapters four and five have to depict the Judgment scene.

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There is much more, and we see through the opaque glass. Please help us Jesus to see more clearly, and to share more gently.