Rev 4 & 5; Pentecost or 1844

January 21, 2006

I wonder Gus when you question the identity of the twentyfour elders because, as you infer, they have not yet been "judged" if you are forgetting about the "multitude" who were resurrected when Jesus was and went to heaven with him. When do you think they were judged?

mel

January 21, 2006

May I refer back to the top of page 2 where John317 is commenting on the reason for the "delay" in Christ's return.

I wonder if the only way that everyone living at any one time can make an informed decision would be for God to stop human procreation for 20 years or so. Seems he did that in Egypt one time. What do you think?

mel

January 21, 2006

Gus, taking yet another look at ch. 4 & 5, I must say, there simply is nothing there, as far as the issue of Christ's coronation. Nor, most definitely, is there anything in the passage suggesting judgment of humans. Or, perhaps you can indicate what, in this passage, you could point to as supporting the idea of Christ's coronation?

Regards, Dave

January 22, 2006

Dave, Jesus is the One judged in our place in the Judgment. And He is the One found worthy in Revelation 5. But unless the book can be opened, God's people cannot be availed of the salvation that Christ has provided, nor can their rewards be determined (how many stars in their crowns, etc.). Remember, our doctrine of the Judgment must be in harmony with the doctrine of Salvation.

I see, Dave, that you have taken a novel, third, position, that the heavenly events depicted in Revelation 4-5 are neither the Inauguration of Christ at the time of Pentecost shortly after His Ascension, nor the Pre-Advent Investigative Judgment. Well then, what do you feel is the occasion? And why is there a book that was sealed? Why was it sealed, and why could it only be unsealed if Christ is found worthy?

At least you seem to be conceding that Revelation 4-5 could not be talking about the Inauguration of Christ at the time of Pentecost. It is terribly difficult for anyone to get around Revelation 4:1, which says that what follows is what will be hereafter, while John received this vision some sixty years after the Ascension of Christ and Pentecost. I can see that you are making a creative effort to get around this difficulty. But I will be really fascinated to see your answer to my question above, what event do you think Revelation 4-5 depicts?

And just to referesh your memory, I have suggested that the book that was sealed is the book that records the faith and works of God's people. It must be opened and consulted so the witnessing universe can be satisfied that we are truly in Christ, and our faith is a sincere heart-commitment to Christ. This record had to be sealed until it is officially established that Christ is worthy to validate our faith and works. Christ saved us 2,000 years ago, but the book must be opened and consulted for us to be availed of that salvation.

January 22, 2006

Quote:

Ron Lambert said:

Dave, Jesus is the One judged in our place in the Judgment.

I understand what you saying. Nevertheless, Rev. 22:15 - 17 are there. We do have accountability to face in the judgment. This passage is similar to Paul's descsription of the 'bema' seat judgment in Corinthians. The books are opened, and the living as well as the dead are judged by what is written in those books.

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And He is the One found worthy in Revelation 5. But unless the book can be opened, God's people cannot be availed of the salvation that Christ has provided, nor can their rewards be determined (how many stars in their crowns, etc.). Remember, our doctrine of the Judgment must be in harmony with the doctrine of Salvation.

Nein, nein, nein, nein, nein!!!!!

Absolutely no support for your statement in the referenced passage. There is NO INDICATION that God's people are being JUDGED in Rev. 5, nor is there the slightest hint that 'rewards' are being considered or assigned. Firstly, such is not there. Secondly, the contents of the sealed roll ARE stated in ch. 6! Not only is the position you are taking speculation, it further contradicts the actual record of Scripture in ch. 6!

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I see, Dave, that you have taken a novel, third, position, that the heavenly events depicted in Revelation 4-5 are neither the Inauguration of Christ at the time of Pentecost shortly after His Ascension, nor the Pre-Advent Investigative Judgment. Well then, what do you feel is the occasion? And why is there a book that was sealed? Why was it sealed, and why could it only be unsealed if Christ is found worthy?

In several places, Revelation describes preparatory events to the scenes depicted in John's visions. For example, the trumpets, the plagues, the two women, etc. This would appear to be depicting preparatory events to the unrolling of the roll. The record does not, on its face, indicate why the roll was sealed. As for Christ being worthy to unroll it, the answer would seem to be stated in ch. 5: because He has redeemed people. This does not point to a judgment of those people. It does seem to suggest that Christ, having redeemed people, is worthy to unroll the scroll which desribes the subsequent history of those redeemed.

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At least you seem to be conceding that Revelation 4-5 could not be talking about the Inauguration of Christ at the time of Pentecost. It is terribly difficult for anyone to get around Revelation 4:1, which says that what follows is what will be

hereafter

, while John received this vision some sixty years after the Ascension of Christ and Pentecost. I can see that you are making a creative effort to get around this difficulty.

What I am doing is making an effort to be faithful to the Scriptural record, and avoid fanciful interpretations. The "event" is stated to be the opening of the scroll which tells about the subsequent course taken by the church. IOW, the messages to the seven churches are present-tense. The scroll reveals what will be the upshot of all that. What is to come, after John's day. Nothing complicated about it--simply what Scripture says.

Now, the next step will be to show why ch. 4 and 5 CANNOT refer to the judgment of people. But more about that, later.

Regards, Dave

January 22, 2006

Quote:

Gus, taking yet another look at ch. 4 & 5, I must say, there simply is nothing there, as far as the issue of Christ's coronation. Nor, most definitely, is there anything in the passage suggesting judgment of humans. Or, perhaps you can indicate what, in this passage, you could point to as supporting the idea of Christ's coronation?

Dave--2 things of note here; 1: I was not trying to disagree with your earlier statements that the context and content must explain itself, for it is obvious from many interpretations that premise is ignored, resulting in all kinds of scenerios. Actually, I like Leslie Hardinge's definition that the beginning of each chapter answers a question posed from the end of the proceding one. That does not mean that one chapter follows another in cronological order, nor in any given time setting.

2: Judgment, coronation and/or identity of the characters in Rev 4 & 5 other that the Father and the Son are not identified within the contexual setting. This is where sound exegesis is required. If, however, the 4 living beings are not described in Ezekiel, the identity and purpose and dutiies of the 24 elders is not described in 1 Cron 24, and further; if the horses' identity and purpose are not described in Zechariah, and also the scroll, then any free lance explanation and purpose is acceptable. The same can be said of ignoring the feasts of Leviticus 23, which is without question a picture of Christ, His life, His work, and His heavenly ministry.

Actually, we are indeed quite fortunate; knowing this is Jesus acting on our behalf in heaven during our lifetime, which most prognostacators detract.

January 22, 2006

I wonder Gus when you question the identity of the twentyfour elders because, as you infer, they have not yet been "judged" if you are forgetting about the "multitude" who were resurrected when Jesus was and went to heaven with him. When do you think they were judged?

I am sorry you understood me to say the '24' were not judged. I have said for 25 years that they were the resurrected that rose with Christ, and were performing the duties of those in 1 Cron 24. John uses Moses and the Prophets in symbolic definitiions to describe the activities of heaven and the church during the entire church age. Thwe letters were to real ongoing churches at the time of his correspondence, and had meanings for all of them during their life time. They knew of the resurrected saints, probably more than we do.

January 22, 2006

Drawing logical deductions and making reasonable inferences from what is stated in the text is not being fanciful, nor is it reading anything into the text. It is a required part of understanding any prophecy of Scripture.

Dave, why do you believe John wept when at first no one was found worthy to open the book? And why are there songs of praise to Christ as Redeemer of mankind after He was found worthy to open the book?

January 22, 2006

Quote:

May I refer back to the top of page 2 where John317 is commenting on the reason for the "delay" in Christ's return.

I wonder if the only way that everyone living at any one time can make an informed decision would be for God to stop human procreation for 20 years or so. Seems he did that in Egypt one time. What do you think?

I am unsure about your meaning of John 3:17, but certainly John 3:17-21 outlines the reason for all not being saved, and especially pertinent to people within the church.

God forces 'the light' on no one. But, as seen in Rev 18:1-4, the light blinds; and the 'scorching of the sun' of the 4th plague is a final unsaved condtion. Actually, my study reveals that the light stuns, where one who is in an unsaved condition because of rejection on the Word through the Holy Spirit, is locked into his condition. Romans 1b (18-32) would apply. Luke refers to this in Acts, when refering to Jesus telling Paul that he does not respond to the goads (pricks, like a cattle prod). There are a couple of places where Paul talks about being stunned into an unsaved condition, and I would have to do research to find them.

My opinion on all humanity making their final eternal decisions is done through the Rev trumpets, which are a response to the gospel as taught by the horses of Rev 6, which are defined in Rev 14:6-12; that of purging, purifying and cleansing of the saved, (many terms like refining gold, burning off the dross, like Jesus' feet of 'burnished bronze' in Rev 1, the wheat and the tares, like Wm Millers' dream of the precious stones on page 82 of Early Writings; among myriads of others), and the destruction of the unsaved (seen in examples like the 1/3s of the trumpets, defined in the 1/3s in the book of the prophets; there are some great texts like in Zech 13:77-9; and remember in Jer 5 where 1/3 of hair sent was judgment).

Remember, the trumpets where mercy is still given, turn into the plagues, where no mercy is given. The defining point is the close of probation. My understanding is that these crises illuminate the condition of every soul, where everyone will be judged by 'their works', their actions, their mindsets, the allegiances.

It may well be, that we, in the church, need a crises to cement our committment to our Savior, and more importantly, to our Lord.

January 22, 2006

Oh I was referring to a poster who's ID is John 3 17. That is why I referred you to the top of page 2. Please read that. My question....we talk about people making informed decisions.. but since a large proportion of the population of the earth is always below the age that they can actually make such a choice there will never be a time under normal conditions when everyone can make an informed decision.

I was suggesting that there must be a time when there are no more children born IF the concept of universal informed choice is correct.

Seems important to me for posters here to read carefully and reply to what people write instead of addressing something else entirely.

mel

January 23, 2006

>>I was suggesting that there must be a time when there are no more children born IF the concept of universal informed choice is correct.<<

There’s a teaching in the ‘Assemblies’ that the White Horse (well, the rider, that is…) symbolizes the white Xtian population with the significant factor being that the rider, though having bow -- has no arrows[:"red"]*[/]; which, if you’ve read another recent post of mine… Gd likens to children. That thought may not be so strange

considering the trending population graphics of the globe…; and,

the same teaching would have the Red Horse represent the children of Esau/Edom the Red (the ascriptives of the Red Horse seem to coincide with the blessing of Isaac given to his son Esau). The Pale Horse suggests a thing of interest in that it is not pale per se – but a sort of chartreuse, a blend of yellow and green that some have noted would indicate an alliance between the Chinese and Islam. Whooboy! if current events are any indication… the Assemblies may be on to something.

[:"red"]*[/]with the increase in the science of GM and ‘genetic targeting’… perhaps, the Caucasian peoples will be ‘targeted’ when chipped. Quien sabe?

January 23, 2006

Quote:

Oh I was referring to a poster who's ID is John 3 17. That is why I referred you to the top of page 2. Please read that. My question....we talk about people making informed decisions.. but since a large proportion of the population of the earth is always below the age that they can actually make such a choice there will never be a time under normal conditions when everyone can make an informed decision.

I was suggesting that there must be a time when there are no more children born IF the concept of universal informed choice is correct.

Seems important to me for posters here to read carefully and reply to what people write instead of addressing something else entirely.

I searched the entire thread for a poster name of John 3 17 and I cannot find it. Sorry I misread you to mean a Scriptural text.

Jesus said in Matt 24--like it was in the time of Noah, People will be marrying and giving in marriage, etc. The time of the end will be just like in Noah's time, life going on as usual, even though it seems like it may be a lot more hectic.

January 23, 2006

Quote:

Gus Foster said:

I searched the entire thread for a poster name of John 3 17 and I cannot find it.

Take a look at post # 201711, and several just before it, on p. 1 of this thread. The poster's screen name is actually john317.

Dave

January 23, 2006

But do we really KNOW what it was like in the days of Noah? I mean,

we do know from Writ that those in the days of Noah were living past their ’probation’, that is, Gd had declared that they ALL would be destroyed by an ‘act of Gd’, --save

Noah and his family, because Noah was perfect in his generations… What’s perfect in his generations mean?

I’m suggesting that EGW may have been right in declaring amalgamation (by whatever means or cause) had occurred in the antediluvian world. I’m also suggesting that

the violence that offended Gd was not so much the strike upon another’s cheek as it was a violence against nature; and the corruption spoken of was not so much that of morals but of the flesh. If the above were so,

then we ought to expect in our time, at the least, genetically modified carbon units – before the final act of Gd.

So, per the above “living past their ‘probation’ ”… that would indicate the antediluvians were judged much, much before Litch-cum-Edson-cum-Crosier-cum-Hahn received their ‘epiphanies’ ca mid-1800s ce. Perhaps,

there is a summary judgement, as the parable of the talents might imply; in that instance, a summary judgement upon a man’s utterance is indicated.

January 23, 2006

Quote:

Gus Foster said:

Judgment, coronation and/or identity of the characters in Rev 4 & 5 other that the Father and the Son are not identified within the contexual setting. This is where sound exegesis is required. If, however, the 4 living beings are not described in Ezekiel, the identity and purpose and dutiies of the 24 elders is not described in 1 Cron 24, and further; if the horses' identity and purpose are not described in Zechariah, and also the scroll, then any free lance explanation and purpose is acceptable.

Okay, here is my question: Why does it have to be anything other than what it says in the chapters? Why would it have to be describing Christ's coronation OR the judgment? Why couldn't it simply be as described in ch. 4 and 5, which portray the scenes of how the sealed scroll is unsealed, and in ch. 6, the future events described in that scroll?

Secondly, as for the 'coronation' of Christ: Dan. 7:13, 14 certainly would seem to be more on point. (Compare 1 Cor. 15:24 - 28. It is also interesting to note how Dan. 7:13, 14 tie in with the court proceedings described earlier in the chapter.) And, Rev. 11:15 - 17. However, no such language appears in ch. 4 or 5. So, I am quite frankly mystified by the suggestion that a coronation of Christ is depicted in ch. 5. Now, as for the possibility that the judgment is depicted, that is another question. But, first, I would like to get a clear picture as to why someone would find a coronation depicted there.

Regards, Dave

January 23, 2006

Quote:

jasd said:

there is a summary judgement, as the parable of the talents might imply; in that instance, a summary judgement upon a man’s utterance is indicated.

Ha! Summary judgment, is it? You must be a lawyer! However, the interests of justice would not be served by the entry of a summary judgment. When the destiny of souls is at stake, the case must be heard on the merits, with the accused having his day in court!

No, I see a different explanation. God is not bound by space-time. God is simultaneously in the past, the present and the future. Difficult for us to comprehend, but encompassed in, "I AM THAT I AM."

And, there is the executive judgment, in which ALL the dead, including the antediluvians, will be raised at the end of the thousand years, and have the opportunity to present their defense, when the books are opened.

Regards, Dave

January 23, 2006

Quote:

Ron Lambert said:

Drawing logical deductions and making reasonable inferences from what is stated in the text is not being fanciful, nor is it reading anything into the text. It is a required part of understanding any prophecy of Scripture.

Formal exegesis is a "CRITICAL explanation or interpretation of a text . . ." (Webster's Unabridged Dictionary) That is a COMPONENT of developing an understanding of a Bible passage. I would START with exegesis, then go on from there into less precise realms of interpretation. Making inferences about the meaning of a passage is not part of the critical apparatus of exegesis.

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Dave, why do you believe John wept when at first no one was found worthy to open the book? And why are there songs of praise to Christ as Redeemer of mankind after He was found worthy to open the book?

No reason is specified, nor is one required. Simply a statement of what happened. We might speculate about why John wept, and why the songs of praise, but that is what it would be: speculation.

One thing is certain: the scroll described events which had not yet occurred, but which would occur in the future. The events themselves did not happen when the scroll was unrolled, but they were DESCRIBED. Their fulfillment required centuries. The events under the SIXTH seal are unmistakable: celestial signs, followed by the return of Christ. Thus, the seven seals take us from John's day, all the way to the end of time. If the events under the first seal were occurring in John's day, and those under the sixth and seventh, would not occur until the end of time, then the events described in the scroll would stretch from the "alpha" of John's day to the "omega" of Christ's return. That would be consistent with the theme of the book, alpha to omega.

There are many identifying markers which suggest tie-ins to specific time periods in the history of God's people, all the way through to the end. Secondly, the events described in the scroll would seem to pertain to God's people, based on ch. 5. Putting the jigsaw puzzle together is most interesting. Now, as for the 'judgment,' well, again, that is another story, to be addressed in a post to follow.

Regards, Dave

January 23, 2006

Quote:

Gus Foster said:

If, however, the 4 living beings are not described in Ezekiel, the identity and purpose and dutiies of the 24 elders is not described in 1 Cron 24, and further; if the horses' identity and purpose are not described in Zechariah, and also the scroll, then any free lance explanation and purpose is acceptable. The same can be said of ignoring the feasts of Leviticus 23, which is without question a picture of Christ, His life, His work, and His heavenly ministry.

Are they indeed? 1 Chr. 24 lists a ROTATION for temple service. The horses in Zech. do not correspond with those in ch. 6. the scroll seems to be different in appearance, and certainly the writing on it is different. Furthermore, it is already unrolled and, in fact, flying. None of these appear to be on point with respect to Rev. 4 - 6. In fact, attempting to tie them in with the passage in Rev., would seem to be highly inaccurate and, in fact, 'free-lancing.'

Regards, Dave

January 23, 2006

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Are they indeed? 1 Chr. 24 lists a ROTATION for temple service. The horses in Zech. do not correspond with those in ch. 6. the scroll seems to be different in appearance, and certainly the writing on it is different. Furthermore, it is already unrolled and, in fact, flying. None of these appear to be on point with respect to Rev. 4 - 6. In fact, attempting to tie them in with the passage in Rev., would seem to be highly inaccurate and, in fact, 'free-lancing.'

Dave--I am very willing to admit that in a strict exegesis of the text of Rev 4 & 5, without any use of symbolism, without any insertion of thought other than the text, that we can read as follows:

Rev 4:1 -- after this --John experienced this after quoting Jesus about His seven churches.

*He heard a voice and was in the Spirit and saw a throne occupied by brilliant light, surrounded by 24 elders who were dressed in white and had gold crowns.

*Before the throne were seven lights which are the seven spirits of God, which was 'on' a sea of glass.

*There were 4 living creatures, one like a lion, one like an ox, one like a face of a man, and one like a flying eagle; each having 6 wings covered under with eys their wings. * They never stopped saying 'holy' to God and declaring His worthiness since He created all things.

Rev 5:1 -- in the hand of the one on the throne was a scroll with writing on both sides sealed with seven seals.

*A mighty angel cried out for one worthy to open the seals.

*An elder Pointe to the Lion, a slain Lamb.

*He had 7 horns and 7 eyes, which are the 7 spirits of God sent out into all the earth.

*He took the scroll out of the hand of the One on the throne, and the characters in this scene all sang a song of His worthiness.

*This was followed by all of heaven, and then by every creature in heaven and on earth, all proclaiming praise and honor and glory to Him.

This is a strict exegesis, although I can give you a slightly different version from the original Greek.

What time setting is it---none.

What caharacters are specifically identified---none.

What is in the scroll---not stated

What is the purpose of texts---it shows activity through a door in heaven, and it shows worship.

There are some more obvious statements about this text.

Does strict exegesis interpret this text. No. What specifically does it tell us; that all of heaven and earth are worshipping this worthy Lamb, whoever He is.

Do I have any license to attribute this text to any other in Scripture. It has several partial quotes from other books of the Bible; the creatures from Ezekiel, the scroll from Zechariah, the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth for Zechariah, the seven characters of the Lamb from Isa 11:1, 2, and there are many other partial quotes to enhance the meaning of the text. Quotes may be included in strict exegesis.

A concordance study of the words reveals scores of other sources for textual understanding, but do fall outside of srict exegesis.

What does this text tell us? That all of heaven and earth will worship the Worthy Lamb. Not bad, if you can identify Him. It would be nice to know when. The text could even be read to point to a time after the church age.

Futher, using just this method of study, the 4 horses and their riders are a complete mystery, and have no bearing on our church age whatsoever. The 5th seal could give us a clue, but following strict exegesis would not permit us to identify them as Christians during the church age; in fact their identity in Rev 7 is members of the 12 tribes of Israel.

Dave: what is your point, since you have disqualified any form of interpretation to our time or experience from this text?

January 23, 2006

After a short hiatus and some more reflecting on what Dave said:

Quote:

Are they indeed? 1 Chr. 24 lists a ROTATION for temple service. The horses in Zech. do not correspond with those in ch. 6. the scroll seems to be different in appearance, and certainly the writing on it is different. Furthermore, it is already unrolled and, in fact, flying. None of these appear to be on point with respect to Rev. 4 - 6. In fact, attempting to tie them in with the passage in Rev., would seem to be highly inaccurate and, in fact, 'free-lancing.'

it is exactly the point to contribute Scripture with Scripture to determine the acurate interpretion. There are some quotes that cannot be denied.

Rev 5:6 is one glaring example: "which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth". Zech 1:10; They (the 4 horses from vs 8) are the ones the Lord is sent to go throughout the earth". And then again in Zech 6 about the 4 horses from vs 4; vs 5: "These are the four spirits of heaven, going out from standing in the presence of the Lord of the whole world".

That is one example of many: one cannot claim a direct quote of Ezekiel 1 of the 4 living creatures, but it is incredible not to see the resemblance, and the descripture of the lion, man, ox and eagle. Many have noticed that these are also the flags of the 4 leaders of the twelve tribes camped or marching in the wilderness. The description of God in Eze 1:23-28 does not call God by name, as does Rev 4:11, but seems rather incoherent in any form of interpretaion not to recognize they are one and the same.

Further, correct exegesis would require all of the context to be included. Thus, Rev 1 is part of Rev 4-7, and Rev 1 indentifies, the Father, the Son, and the Spirit by name. Chapter one also demands that one interpret the symbolism by other Scripture: Rev 1:16; "In His hand He held seven stars: Rev 1:20: "The mystery of the seven stars---are the angels of the seven churches". Surely, no one would call these heavenly angels. Or, maybe in a forum, they would.

I can remember that my study group spent months on a concordance study on Rev 4-5, and much more into the seals, and years on the trumpets. There are so many things that are simple, irrefutable, and made plain. For example, the 'bow' of Rev 6:2. A wreath, of victory. Who knows that? Who misses the gospel being sent 'throughout the earth'?

For many who like to list Revelation time in exact cronological order, chapter by chapter, Rev 6 is a fulfillment of Rev 14:6-12, which is continued in Rev 18:1-8, the last call, which is described as the church age of Rev 12:1-9.

One thing is sure; Ron sees Jesus as being judged in our place; that is enormously wonderful and true!

I see my Lord, Savior, Friend, High Priest and Ruler of the universe on the throne--it is good to have a friend in high places, regardless of the setting or circumstances I face every day-----I think that is amazingly, incredulously fantastic!

In some cases, even the best efforts of the Spirit has trouble penetrating our pre-determined notions. Cheer up, for there was a Pentecost, Peter told me so, and so did Moses. And the King is in charge!

Sound exegesis of symbolism is quite a science, and I suggest that only a Spirit led mind can enter.

January 24, 2006

>>For example, the 'bow' of Rev 6:2. A wreath, of victory.<<

Are you saying, in the above, that the "bow" of Revelation 6:2 is in actuality --a "wreath of victory"?

>>Who knows that?<<

I, for one, did not know. If it is, indeed, as stated in the above, then it begs to be expanded upon.

Please, expand.

January 26, 2006

Quote:

>>For example, the 'bow' of Rev 6:2. A wreath, of victory.<<

Are you saying, in the above, that the "bow" of Revelation 6:2 is in actuality --a "wreath of victory"?

>>Who knows that?<<

I, for one, did not know. If it is, indeed, as stated in the above, then it begs to be expanded upon.

Please, expand.

I remember of decade or so ago I was attending a conference and found my accross the table from Desmond Ford, who had just proponed his description of parts of Revelation, including our text here of Revelation 6:2. He had used Ps 46 as his definition of the text, about the warrior using his bow and arrows on the enemy, and then it was my turn.

Here is the text; "I looked, and there before me was a white horse! Its rider held a bow, and he was given a crown, and he rode out as a conquerer bent on conquest".

I know that there are other words in different translations, but this is as close as I can get from the Greek.

White---#3022--leukos; from root luk---meaning bright white; pure white

Horse---#2462--hippos--a noun, nominative, singular, masculine--a horse

Rider---#3588--ho--this word may be added--it seems to refer to 'he' or him, or they--(the one on the horse)

Bow---#5115--toxon; from 5088, a bow---#5088--titko--to bring forth, to be born, to travail, to give birth

--bow is a noun, in the nominative, singular, neuter---the experince of receiving the pure white horse, (messenger, the gospel)

Crown---#4735--stephanos--to circle, to surround, a wreath; a noun-nsm

Rode---#1831--exerchomai--to go or to come out of--from 1537 and 2064; from out of, going, went

Conquerer---#3528--to conquer, to be victorious, to prevail, to overcome

Our sentence states: He on a pure white horse, travails, gives birth; receives a wreath of overcoming, of victory.

Those who teach the gospel and those who receive, accept, who have the bow, the toxon, who have had the experince of the gospel.

This certainly falls in line with the message to the first church, those of "the first love"!

January 26, 2006

Quote:

Gus Foster said:

What time setting is it---none.

What caharacters are specifically identified---none.

What is in the scroll---not stated

What is the purpose of texts---it shows activity through a door in heaven, and it shows worship.

I must differ with that. Some important information may be gleaned from the chapters themselves (ch. 4 - 6)

Quote:

Do I have any license to attribute this text to any other in Scripture. It has several partial quotes from other books of the Bible; the creatures from Ezekiel, the scroll from Zechariah, the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth for Zechariah, the seven characters of the Lamb from Isa 11:1, 2, and there are many other partial quotes to enhance the meaning of the text. Quotes may be included in strict exegesis.

How do you know that John is quoting from these passages? What textual evidence can you present in support of that position?

Quote:

A concordance study of the words reveals scores of other sources for textual understanding, but do fall outside of srict exegesis.

Therein lies a problem. An English concordance is not an accurate way to conduct serious Bible study. If a person wishes to conduct that type of research, a better tool would be an exhaustive analytical concordance of the Greek NT (it needs to be both) and a similar reference work for the OT. But, that is only scratching the surface and, even with those tools, can be misleading, standing alone. Grammatical issues also need to be addressed.

Quote:

What does this text tell us? That all of heaven and earth will worship the Worthy Lamb. Not bad, if you can identify Him. It would be nice to know when. The text could even be read to point to a time after the church age.

Futher, using just this method of study, the 4 horses and their riders are a complete mystery, and have no bearing on our church age whatsoever. The 5th seal could give us a clue, but following strict exegesis would not permit us to identify them as Christians during the church age; in fact their identity in Rev 7 is members of the 12 tribes of Israel.

Dave: what is your point, since you have disqualified any form of interpretation to our time or experience from this text?

Actually, I think there is a lot which can be understood from this passage, without compromising accuracy. If the network I am on will hold up, I want to give some examples of that.

Regards, Dave

January 26, 2006

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Gus Foster said:

it is exactly the point to contribute Scripture with Scripture to determine the acurate interpretion. There are some quotes that cannot be denied.

Rev 5:6 is one glaring example: "which are the seven spirits of God sent out into all the earth". Zech 1:10; They (the 4 horses from vs 8) are the ones the Lord is sent to go throughout the earth". And then again in Zech 6 about the 4 horses from vs 4; vs 5: "These are the four spirits of heaven, going out from standing in the presence of the Lord of the whole world".

Your "glaring example" illustrates the nature of the problem. You quote Scriptures which describe seven spirits, four spirits, four horses. On what basis would you match up any of these, either with each other or with the passage in Rev.?

Think of it in terms of doing a DNA match in criminal forensics. The circumstantial evidence may seem ever so compelling, but if the DNA sample doesn't match that of the defendant, your case goes out the window. As I have read you several posts on this thread, I see a LOT of circumstantial evidence, on which you seem to have based your position. Yet, some inconsistencies appear as well. Not a true match.

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For many who like to list Revelation time in exact cronological order, chapter by chapter, Rev 6 is a fulfillment of Rev 14:6-12, which is continued in Rev 18:1-8, the last call, which is described as the church age of Rev 12:1-9.

Ha! Now THAT takes a few leaps!!! An example of creative interpretation. One thing I will say for this forum, lots of interesting and different ideas are presented!

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Sound exegesis of symbolism is quite a science, and I suggest that only a Spirit led mind can enter.

It is a science. What you have presented so far, very honestly, is not 'doing science.' It is, however, an exercise in creativity. As for the role of the Holy Spirit, He is not a substitute for careful Bible study, using the right methods and the right tools.

Regards, Dave

January 26, 2006

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