Membership crisis

[Gregory Matthews]

A number of my comments are based upon the following, which should be read in full:

Martin Surridge & Cambria Wheeler, "From PUC Church to Your Church: Keeping A generation of Young Adults Connected." as printed in: VIEWPOINT, February 2014, PAGES 6 -9.

within the NAD, 60 - 70% of our young adults are leaving the denomination. Close to 50% of the 15-26 age group is leaving.

Our young people of today are concerned with different life issues than previous generations. Typically, as they move out on their own they will give the denomination three chances and if they do not feel welcomed in those three chances they will not come back.

One example is cited of a young adult, new the area, who on walking up the steps to a local SDA Church was counseled about coming to church wearing tennis shoes. She did not return.

The thrust of the article was to enlist alumni in a proposed model to attempt to keep young PUC graduates in the denomination. Read the article to see what you may be able to do.

I look at the numerical figures. I note that a question is raised here in Club Adventist as to whether or not males should shave and another question about a young Adventist who showed up one day at a SDA church, wore a beard and otherwise was described as not being dressed well.

Come on folks. It is stuff that drives people away.

Beards, tennis shoes and causal clothing is not the core of the gospel that we should be preaching.

Let us get real.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

Beards, tennis shoes and causal clothing is not the core of the gospel that we should be preaching.

If one is to understand your counsel correctly, it does appear that the reason individuals leave the narrow way as outlined by the Christ, they can always relate their stumbling at the feet of others than themselves, effectively removing any personal responsibility for their poor choices.

"“Do not think that I came to bring peace on earth. I did not come to bring peace but a sword."

Matthew 10:34 NKJV

God cares! Jesus saves!

[Gregory Matthews]

That was neither the intent nor the focus of the article which is why I suggested that the article should be read in full.

However. you quoted a statement that I made, which was not in the article:

Quote:

Beards, tennis shoes and causal clothing is not the core of the gospel that we should be preaching.

I do not understand you purpose in quoting it. Do you think that the focus of the SDA message in End Time should be on whether or someone has a beard, or wears tennis shoes to church, or some other casual clothing?

Is that the End Time message that God has given us to proclaim?

[CoAspen]

I agree. I believe at one time the church rather just shrugged it shoulders about it all. But now, I do see an effort to change and a desire to bring that generation back. I know that in the case of my daughter, she still believes but simply gave up on attending church while still in her teens. Now she has a family and we take the kids to church at times with her blessing.

And, has been alluded to, it is not about the 'narrow way' vs 'my own way' but rather relevance. We rally have a large 'mission field' with in our own church, right at home. I fell that there are many approaches that can be taken to resolve the issue. I would like to see more of a concerted effort by the .org as a front burner issue, rather than some of the other 'issues' being seen as the most important.

[M. T. Cross]

Most young people, SDA or not go through a period of identity crisis. Especially in the last 100+ years as our knowledge of what is out there in the world has expanded and the choices broadened.

SDA kids grow up in a rather insular world. Often they live a life on the outside so to speak, separated from the world at large while walking in it. It seems to me, based on my experiences at that age, that if they have the nerve to speak up about their crisis or conflict they just get a whole lot of cliche bible verses or EGW quotes thrown at them. Very seldom does someone sit down with them and ask them for their honest thoughts. Very seldom does someone listen to them. This stems IMO from the need to "save their souls" or "keep them in the flock". With that is often overlooked the person. Most people, especially at that age, will walk away if they do not feel as though they matter as an individual. They may indeed give it a few chances, but by the time you are giving something chances there is already a level of sceptisism that has you looking for a way out.

As far as the shaving, hair, clothing and shoes thing goes.......... really, how shallow can people get?

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

I slogged through the article, but to tell the truth, it really doesn't sound like the young adults of today's church are any different than 40 years ago.

Very few of my academy graduating class of 82 students are still SDA, probably not more than 50% are active church members.

While I think that the church members who are critical of the younger generation aren't the real problem, they contribute to the problem. When I left the church so many years ago, it was REALLY easy to accuse those who criticized the way I dressed and what I did as being the reason I stopped going to church...

but looking back, that was only a convenient excuse. I just plain was not interested. I'd had my fill of EGW, of friends and relativs getting [what I perceived as] preferential treatment because of being 'preacher's kids,' of trite phrases that were so overused that they were meaningless (i.e., "praise God," "blessthemissionariesandcolporteursacrosstheseas," "blessthisfoodandustotheyserviceinJesusnameamen").

The only time I can remember really enjoying any aspect of Sabbath School was when the class was more of a "group therapy" - where we talked about the issues that concerned us, where we could ask others what they would do in certain situations, how the Bible advised to handle situations, and where the leader of the class was not a staid, dull person who only spouted uninspiring Bible verses and clichés at us. He had his issues, too, but wasn't afraid to ask *us* what we would do in his situations.

It was RELEVANT. It was also, apparently, annoying to many in the church - and the idea of having a class like that got quashed.

I would think young parents would also like to be a part of a group of like-minded people, not only other young parents, but folks who really take an interest in them as individuals.

I still don't like being in the company of people whose only topic consists of God and Bible verses. It's like they're totally oblivious of the real world. There are so many ways to communicate God's love - and one of the most powerful is to 'walk the walk' (which is what I see so many do here at C/A)

relevance, relevance, relevance......

[phkrause]

Come on folks. It is stuff that drives people away.

Beards, tennis shoes and causal clothing is not the core of the gospel that we should be preaching.

Let us get real.

Exactly Gregory.

[Gregory Matthews]

Rudywoofs: You have hit the nail on the head.

[Gail]

Rudywoofs: You have hit the nail on the head.

I agree, wholeheartedly!

Sometimes I feel badly for some that have grown up in the church, that they don't seem to have have any spiritual vitality. How can that be, when Jesus called Himself the giver of "living water", and "spirit," and "life"?

When I grew up wandering alone, aimlessly through the streets in Vancouver, then found myself as a pregnant teen in a dead-end situation, I thought that I had hit a pot of gold when I discovered Jesus. What Pam said rang so true- Jesus had relevance to my dying state. My husband (to-be)'s friends were dying of heroin overdoses, going to jail, fighting or destroying their bodies and aging well before their time. I thought that who WOULDN'T love some of that life-giving water?

There are many times when I STILL want to give some church people a shake. I once heard one make fun of drunkenness, one who had never been drunk, and it made my blood boil, having seen the depravity drugs and alcohol causes. I really regret not saying anything at the time. That was my bad and I think about that still.

Yet it is not only our denomination that is suffering from a lackadaisical state. Christianity in general, perhaps, has not suffered enough to provide a genuine witness.

[Gail]

My reply seems a bit dramatic, but it bothers me, too, that subjects that are heavy burdens to some are either treated as a "them and us" topic, or are not discussed at all. It is no wonder that kids see through the shallowness. What they deal with at school age (and yes, in church school, too- that is precisely the reason my daughter chose addictions counselling as a career choice) can't compare in weight with gossip over what someone else's failings are.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

As the congregation rose for the closing hymn, the stranger walked out, and was not seen again.

Jesus invited me into this body of believers and just because some sheep give a different bleat or even might be a wolf in sheep's clothing, by His grace and power I'm not leaving until He tells me to and that is at this point below, in my journey.

"For since we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will also bring with Him through Jesus those who have fallen asleep [in death].

For this we declare to you by the Lord’s [own] word, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord shall in no way precede [into His presence] or have any advantage at all over those who have previously fallen asleep [in Him in death].

For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a loud cry of summons, with the shout of an archangel, and with the blast of the trumpet of God. And those who have departed this life in Christ will rise first.

Then we, the living ones who remain [on the earth], shall simultaneously be caught up along with [the resurrected dead] in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and so always (through the eternity of the eternities) we shall be with the Lord!"1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 AMP

God cares! Jesus saves!

[Gerr]

Frankly, I'm sick and tired of hearing of people putting the blame on others as to why they leave/left the church. If you are really convicted that the Adventist message IS the truth, would you leave over such shallow issues as shoes or hair? I left the church once, on my own volition, to explore the "world". After I've done that, I came back on my own volition, convinced of the truthfulness of the Advent message. If the conviction is shallow and the truth has not taken deep root, it will take little or no prompting to give it up.

Of those who leave, what I'd like to know is this: before they left, (1) how often and how seriously were they studying the Word

(2) how often they were talking to God (3) how often they were involved in the activities of the church (4) if they were involved in sharing the Good News

[Gail]

Except that, Gerry, I think that hair is only a secondary issue. I think the first is rejection...

[Gregory Matthews]

Gerry:

People need a congregation where they can be nurtured and grow. Some people do not find that.

Some congregations do not welcome some people.

I am reminded of a congregation that I once pastored. The previous pastor had asked the son of a member to leave and not return until he returned without some jewelry that he was wearing. Why should that person come back?

My wife and I had just moved to a new area. As we left a local church on Sabbath morning, the local Elder suggested that we return early enough the next Sabbath to attend Sabbath School. My response: My wife, son and I were in your Sabbath School class today.

The above church had a school. I wrote to them before we moved to the area and applied to send my son to their school. They knew from my application that I was a SDA minister. They wrote back that they would not be able to accept my son as a student in their school. I appealed that decision to the Conference. The Conference asked a retired SDA school principal to investigate. She reported to the Conference that there was no valid reason to reject my son. So, in December, the Conference ordered the school to accept my son. Well, by that time he had been placed in public school. We did not want him to have to change schools to go to a school that had been forced to accept him, so we declined to move him.

I once attended an evangelistic series. Other than those participating in the meeting, there were probably 10 person who were setting in the audience. There were four (4) young persons, of SDA background, who had dropped out of the church who attended that evening. [i met them on the subway after the meeting and talked to them for a while.] No one spoke to any of us that day. The five of us (I did not previously know the other four.) were not spoken to at any time by any person who was involved in the evangelistic meeting. I wrote to the pastor and shared that experience with his.

As a guest who had never attended this church before, I sat in a Sabbath School class where the entire discussion identified other denominations by name and listed the ways in which they were not following the Biblical teachings. Finally I challenged the teacher, who was the head Elder, as to the manner in which he was presenting the class. As it sunk in to him that I was a guest who had come to worship, and how he had presented the class, he picked up his Bible and left the church and did not return that day.

The bottom line is: Some of our congregations do not provide a welcoming place for people to grow in their Christian life and faith.

[Gregory Matthews]

Gerry said:

Quote:

Of those who leave, what I'd like to know is this: before they left, (1) how often and how seriously were they studying the Word

(2) how often they were talking to God (3) how often they were involved in the activities of the church (4) if they were involved in sharing the Good News

Gerry: The Church exists for people who are doing none of the above and may not have made any commitment to Christ. It exists as a hospital where the sick can be encouraged to come by the Holy Spirit and fid healing.

Sometimes, we do not welcome such people when they walk up the steps to our church.

I once asked an innocent question in a Sabbath School class. The teacher who did not know me, as I was a guest, responded with a comment to the effect that he could not understand why I had come to church.

Later that day, I preached the sermon.

My question was not that bad. I was not attempting to be disruptive. It came out of the context of the lesion and the discussion. If I had been a non-SDA guest, why would I have returned to that church?

[Gerr]

I should clarify that my comment was directed more to those who have been in the church a long time.

If a patient has been in the hospital 10, 15, 20 or 30 years, and shows no sign of getting well, either get rid of the hospital or the patient is not following the treatment plan.

[Gregory Matthews]

Gerry, the SDA Church I attend has a man who has attended for almost 10 years. He openly says that God requires him to attend.

Over these years, we have seen him grow spiritually. Yet, he is not a SDA.

AS we can see the continued spiritual progress in his life, who are we to judge.

Yes, I know you said: ". . . no sign of getting well. . ."

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

My wife and I had just moved to a new area. As we left a local church on Sabbath morning, the local Elder suggested that we return early enough the next Sabbath to attend Sabbath School. My response: My wife, son and I were in your Sabbath School class today.

The above church had a school. I wrote to them before we moved to the area and applied to send my son to their school. They knew from my application that I was a SDA minister. They wrote back that they would not be able to accept my son as a student in their school. I appealed that decision to the Conference. The Conference asked a retired SDA school principal to investigate. She reported to the Conference that there was no valid reason to reject my son. So, in December, the Conference ordered the school to accept my son. Well, by that time he had been placed in public school. We did not want him to have to change schools to go to a school that had been forced to accept him, so we declined to move him.

I once attended an evangelistic series. Other than those participating in the meeting, there were probably 10 person who were setting in the audience. There were four (4) young persons, of SDA background, who had dropped out of the church who attended that evening. [i met them on the subway after the meeting and talked to them for a while.] No one spoke to any of us that day. The five of us (I did not previously know the other four.) were not spoken to at any time by any person who was involved in the evangelistic meeting. I wrote to the pastor and shared that experience with his.

As a guest who had never attended this church before, I sat in a Sabbath School class where the entire discussion identified other denominations by name and listed the ways in which they were not following the Biblical teachings. Finally I challenged the teacher, who was the head Elder, as to the manner in which he was presenting the class. As it sunk in to him that I was a guest who had come to worship, and how he had presented the class, he picked up his Bible and left the church and did not return that day.

troublemaker ( )

[Gregory Matthews]

I am reminded of a true story:

A number of years ago when my 2nd son was living with his mother he went over to a friends house one Friday evening to invite a friend of his to go bowling.

The Father began to lambast my son for leading his son into sin.

My son took it for a while and finally it got too much for him and he began to respond. Item by item he went down a list of ways in which the Father was not living a traditional SDA life.

Finally the Father asked: How did you come to know all of this? You are not an Adventist.

My son responded: No, I am not an Adventist. But, my Father is an Adventist minister!

At that, the Father shut up.

[Gregory Matthews]

Quote:

I should clarify that my comment was directed more to those who have been in the church a long time.

If a patient has been in the hospital 10, 15, 20 or 30 years, and shows no sign of getting well, either get rid of the hospital or the patient is not following the treatment plan.

Gerry, many of us have children who have been in Adventism for many years. Now they are at a stage in their lives where they are questioning what their relationship with the SDA Church should be.

Statements like the above probably do not help any people involved in such situations.

[Kevin H]

I hope things have changed there by now since this was about 30 years ago, but when I was at Andrews, the Pioneer Memorial church had people show up at the start of church then empty faster than a fire drill when church was over. I did not see fellowship with the people. It was as if a bunch of strangers were getting together to watch the program and then to return to their independent lives. Very hard to meet anyone.

A very sad service was I was visiting a country where I was hoping to make some friends in the church. I came to church and it was crowded. Quite a few stayed and talked after church but they were all in very tight circles and my attempts to try to meet were ignored and I felt like I was invisible. Even shaking hands with the speaker he was very aloof and guarded, looking at me as if I had 3 eyes, not welcoming.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

I think most people have an innate fear of strangers, especially those who don't fit into an unconscious, yet preconceived, idea of what a "safe" person should look like..

I think perhaps it was different back in the early days, when most people dressed in similar clothing, and a stranger (even one who appeared differently) was more likely to be barraged with questions as a welcome diversion from day-to-day happenings, rather than ignored or feared..

[Gerr]

Quote:

I should clarify that my comment was directed more to those who have been in the church a long time.

If a patient has been in the hospital 10, 15, 20 or 30 years, and shows no sign of getting well, either get rid of the hospital or the patient is not following the treatment plan.

Gerry, many of us have children who have been in Adventism for many years. Now they are at a stage in their lives where they are questioning what their relationship with the SDA Church should be.

Statements like the above probably do not help any people involved in such situations.

Greg, if you have a son who is still in diapers at 20, when will he grow up?

[M. T. Cross]

Frankly, I'm sick and tired of hearing of people putting the blame on others as to why they leave/left the church. If you are really convicted that the Adventist message IS the truth, would you leave over such shallow issues as shoes or hair? I left the church once, on my own volition, to explore the "world". After I've done that, I came back on my own volition, convinced of the truthfulness of the Advent message. If the conviction is shallow and the truth has not taken deep root, it will take little or no prompting to give it up.

Of those who leave, what I'd like to know is this: before they left, (1) how often and how seriously were they studying the Word

(2) how often they were talking to God (3) how often they were involved in the activities of the church (4) if they were involved in sharing the Good News

I'll answer those

1. Daily for a number or years.

2. Multiple times daily. It was a one sided conversation though.

3. Every time we had an activity, and was the hymn leader. That was how I found out I was not real welcome by a great number.

4. Due to number one and two, over time until I left it really decreased. I just didn't find it to be Good News or even true news.

[Gail]

Wow- GREAT discussion!

And Gerry may have a point about not learning and growing. The person doing so may be myself, as well as the one perceived as not "getting it".

Perhaps our focus should be not the exteriors so much as, "How's your faith today?", or, "How's the battle going?" People seek God in the first place because of a heartfelt need.

In this sense I feel that our friend MT was wronged. He should have been encouraged, not discouraged. Real faith involves the heart, and we fail when we jump before having all the information.