Membership crisis

[Gregory Matthews]

Quote:

Greg, if you have a son who is still in diapers at 20, when will he grow up?

Gerry: Many of us have children who reach their 20's to 30's and decide that they want to understand and make decisions on their own. In a sense, they start from the very beginning. No, they are not in diapers. Actually they are growing up in a very normal process. What they are going through is a part of that process and a sign of spiritual strength. This is a crisis for the denomination. It is at this point that we lose many of them.

You seem to me to be very fortunate in that you, it seems, have never had to experience this with anyone you had raised and loved.

But, that is not where many of us are. IF you cannot understand that and want to equate this issue with someone being in diapers, so be it. I Do not wish that experience on you.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Quote:

"How's your faith today?", or, "How's the battle going?"

Not trying to be snarky, but these are two great examples of SDA/Christian clichés which, to me, have always sounded like some sort of "code."

If someone is interested in how someone else's life is going, why would the word, "battle," be used? And in the presence of others, it's almost indicative of a foreknowledge of some problem or issue a particular person might be dealing with.... battle with alcohol, drugs, porn, abuse -- certainly things that I don't think should be public fodder. Even if the "battle" referred to is a battle of "self" or battle with evil in general, it's still a weird (to me) question.

And if one is only interested in someone else's faith level, that sounds equally as condescending. What about discovering someone's needs or issues by just **talking and listening** to him/her, as if s/he was the most important being on earth? Focus on the issues that are meaningful to people. ("Faith" is such a broad subject - it doesn't pin down any particular issue.)

If a question needs to be explained in order to be understood, then perhaps better opening questions might be used.

And folks shouldn't ask questions of someone unless they really mean to listen to the answers..

[Gerr]

Quote:

Greg, if you have a son who is still in diapers at 20, when will he grow up?

Gerry: Many of us have children who reach their 20's to 30's and decide that they want to understand and make decisions on their own. In a sense, they start from the very beginning. No, they are not in diapers. Actually they are growing up in a very normal process. What they are going through is a part of that process and a sign of spiritual strength. This is a crisis for the denomination. It is at this point that we lose many of them.

I don't see how diapers in a 20 yo is part of a normal growth process.

Quote:

You seem to me to be very fortunate in that you, it seems, have never had to experience this with anyone you had raised and loved.

On the contrary, I have a son who had a bad experience in one of our Adventist academies. His experience was completely opposite to mine. He would not set foot in a SDA church today, but he goes to a Baptist church. But what he is finding out is that the same problems in Adventist churches plague the Baptists also. We can blame others, circumstances or whatever up to a point, but at some point we have to take responsibility for our own actions. I still have a mark on my arm from the cruelty of my own father, but how long can I keep blaming him for my problems?

Quote:

But, that is not where many of us are. IF you cannot understand that and want to equate this issue with someone being in diapers, so be it. I Do not wish that experience on you.

We all go through the diaper stage, but I refuse to keep enabling a 20 and 30 yo to stay in that condition. If something/someone near and dear to us leaves and doesn't come back, it was never ours in the first place.

[Gregory Matthews]

Gerry: I am troubled as to how to respond to you.

It is not a matter of blame and refusing to take responsibility.

Of course, every individual is responsible.

The bottom line is that we as a denomination in North America are losing a generation of people and we are clueless as to what to do about it. These people are our sons and daughters and we want answers.

No, this does not mean that we dumb down the essentials of the Christian faith.

But, clearly to suggest that honest people who are asking honest questions, are is a diaper stage is not helpful.

To suggest that one who leaves was never a part of us is not helpful. For many of us a parents, we have done all that we could to raise our children in the faith, and they were once a part of us.

We do not have answers. You clearly do not have answers either. We are looking for them. We are praying that God will lead us.

I am sorry. I just do not know how to respond to what you are saying.

In any case, we here in NA have a membership crisis which is becoming recognized by more and more of our members. This crisis cannot be easily dismissed. It is real. We are starting to search for answers. I hope that you can be a part of this search.

[Tom Wetmore]

I'm getting a picture of an expectation of maturity in the faith, a growth toward being heaven ready, the analogy comparison to maturity we see as necessary in normal life. It sounds like someone who has their act together, knows what they are doing, has things pretty well figured out. Experienced. Knowledgeable. Capable. Accomplished. Ready to take on life's challenges. Ready and able to pass that on to another generation.

What does a mature Christian look like? How do they act? What kind of person are they in the context of Church? Sort what I just described?

Is our idea of that in sync with the namesake of our faith? He said, "Unless you become as a child..." Didn't he have it backwards? A child is not very mature. What is it about a child that Jesus thought was good for his kingdom, the church?

Maybe we have it all backwards and upside down when it comes to church...

[Gerr]

Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Frankly, I'm sick and tired of hearing of people putting the blame on others as to why they leave/left the church. If you are really convicted that the Adventist message IS the truth, would you leave over such shallow issues as shoes or hair? I left the church once, on my own volition, to explore the "world". After I've done that, I came back on my own volition, convinced of the truthfulness of the Advent message. If the conviction is shallow and the truth has not taken deep root, it will take little or no prompting to give it up.

Of those who leave, what I'd like to know is this: before they left, (1) how often and how seriously were they studying the Word

(2) how often they were talking to God (3) how often they were involved in the activities of the church (4) if they were involved in sharing the Good News

I'll answer those

1. Daily for a number or years.

2. Multiple times daily. It was a one sided conversation though.

3. Every time we had an activity, and was the hymn leader. That was how I found out I was not real welcome by a great number.

4. Due to number one and two, over time until I left it really decreased. I just didn't find it to be Good News or even true news.

There is no guaranty that doing all the things I mentioned will keep one in the fold. The covering cherub, Lucifer, who was described by someone as one who was created as close to God as possible even rebelled. But if one who does all those things can even stray away, what chance does one who rarely do those things have of remaining?

[Gerr]

I'm getting a picture of an expectation of maturity in the faith, a growth toward being heaven ready, the analogy comparison to maturity we see as necessary in normal life. It sounds like someone who has their act together, knows what they are doing, has things pretty well figured out. Experienced. Knowledgeable. Capable. Accomplished. Ready to take on life's challenges. Ready and able to pass that on to another generation.

What does a mature Christian look like? How do they act? What kind of person are they in the context of Church? Sort what I just described?

Is our idea of that in sync with the namesake of our faith? He said, "Unless you become as a child..." Didn't he have it backwards? A child is not very mature. What is it about a child that Jesus thought was good for his kingdom, the church?

Maybe we have it all backwards and upside down when it comes to church...

I don't have everything figured out -

KJV 1900 | ‎2 Pe 3:18 But grow in grace, and in the knowledge of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. To him be glory both now and for ever. Amen.

ESV | ‎Heb 6:1 Therefore let us leave the elementary doctrine of Christ and go on to maturity, not laying again a foundation of repentance from dead works and of faith toward God,

[Gregory Matthews]

O.K. Gerry: Perhaps you do not have everything figured out.

But, what is your expectation for people 30 - 40 years younger than you.

[Gerr]

Greg, of course, we are in a crisis. Were we not warned about this?

"The time has come when everything that can be shaken will be shaken. We are in the shaking time. Be assured that only those who live the prayer of Christ for unity among His disciples, working it out in practical life, will stand the test." {RH, June 18, 1901 par. 1}

(2002). The Review and Herald; The Advent Review and Sabbath Herald; Review and Herald.

You have no idea about the angst my wife and I have regarding our son, but what can we do? We have no solution except to pray for him and his family. I have a brother and sister and brother-in-law who went to our schools but no longer attend church. I cry and pray for them, but what more can I or the church do?

[Gerr]

O.K. Gerry: Perhaps you do not have everything figured out.

But, what is your expectation for people 30 - 40 years younger than you.

We have no time to lose. Time is short. Check to see whether what we believe are "......cunningly devised fables,..." 2 Pe 1:16

ESV | ‎2 Co 13:5 Examine yourselves, to see whether you are in the faith. Test yourselves. Or do you not realize this about yourselves, that Jesus Christ is in you?—unless indeed you fail to meet the test!

And - ESV | ‎Ps 34:8 Oh, taste and see that the LORD is good! Blessed is the man who takes refuge in him!

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

What is it about a child that Jesus thought was good for his kingdom, the church?

Their trust in the Father for one thing, with no guile, even when they don't have full understanding of the Father's providential allowances or Sovereign oversight.

God/Jesus saves!

[Gregory Matthews]

Quote:

You have no idea about the angst my wife and I have regarding our son, but what can we do? We have no solution except to pray for him and his family. I have a brother and sister and brother-in-law who went to our schools but no longer attend church. I cry and pray for them, but what more can I or the church do?

Gerry: Now you are being real. Now you are showing yourself as many of us feel.

You are not the problem. We who are parents are not the problem. The responsibility for where people are rests with the individual. Pointing out external factors that were involved in the decisions that they make does not absolve individuals from responsibility.

This is the issue that many in the denomination are struggling with. You are not alone in this. I do not have answers.

But, all of the above does not mean that there is nothing more than prayer that we can do. Prayer is effective. But, it is best used outside of isolation, keeping in mind that we must respect boundaries and not cross boundaries without permission--God has given people choice.

This may mean that we rejoice in attempts to grow spirituality outside of the SDA Church. I have a son, once baptized SDA, who has been outside of any church for years. Now he has a friend who is taking him to a non-SDA congregation on Saturday afternoon. My son is going every week. That is spiritual growth, after many years! I rejoice.

I have confidence that God is leading and that the Holy Spirit will use this new-found spirituality to encourage my son. In time, I am confident that the Holy Spirit will begin to lead him to take another look at the SDA Church.

Gerry, you are of my generation. Our sons and daughters are from a generation with some different spiritual values. We do not have to give up our values. I attend church in a suit & tie--sometimes in slacks &tie. But, I welcome others who attend in tennis shoes and jeans.

The generation of our sons and daughters is more interested in relationships and less in some of the doctrinal issues that were/are of interest to us. This is not a giving up of Christina values. Or, it does not have to be. We can welcome those who have these differences with us and leave aspects of this to God.

People today, rightfully, are often unwilling to attend a congregation that is not spiritually feeding them. IF we can identify why this is happening we may be able to effect changes that will result in a congregation that does spiritually nurture.

Gerry, I have provided brief, perhaps simplistic, answers to a complex issue that deserves much more. This is not a time to give up hope. God is still in charge. It is the HS that convicts--that is not our job. It is the HS that converts--we do not.

The struggles of our sons and daughters are often both real and honest. God can work with honest people who are struggling.

Have faith.

[Jeannieb43]

I hope things have changed there by now since this was about 30 years ago, but when I was at Andrews, the Pioneer Memorial church had people show up at the start of church then empty faster than a fire drill when church was over. I did not see fellowship with the people. It was as if a bunch of strangers were getting together to watch the program and then to return to their independent lives. Very hard to meet anyone.

A very sad service was I was visiting a country where I was hoping to make some friends in the church. I came to church and it was crowded. Quite a few stayed and talked after church but they were all in very tight circles and my attempts to try to meet were ignored and I felt like I was invisible. Even shaking hands with the speaker he was very aloof and guarded, looking at me as if I had 3 eyes, not welcoming.

I can't speak for everybody at Andrews, but the times when I've visited there on Sabbaths, the congregation all seemed in a hurry to get out of the church at the end of the service because they had to rush over to the Student Center in order to get in line at the cafeteria. Or so it seemed to me. Their church service is quite late, so by the time it finishes, it's 12:45 or so, and I guess students are all famished by that time.

Just my observation.

[JoeMo]

This is a great, candid discussion.

I myself have seven children; only four are believers; and none consider themselves Adventist. We tried the conservative, legalistic and judgemental route with our older kids - to no avail. We were more "merciful" and patient with the younger ones, to no avail. Sooner or later, a church member who my kids looked up to either rejected them, publicly rebuked them, hit them, or molested them. Only to deny the fact later.

That being said, people make thier own choices. My kids that remain Christian are blessed. They are experiencing spiritual growth and victory in other churches. My children who have left Christianity are blessed in a way, too. In rejecting what a denomination has taught and shown them about Jesus (In my youthful legalistic fervor, I accept some of the responsibility), God now has a clean slate that He can work with in bringing them back. I choose to believe that God will do just that; and I pray for it daily.

[CoAspen]

Quote:

God now has a clean slate that He can work with in bringing them back. I choose to believe that God will do just that; and I pray for it daily.

I like that idea/thought.

[LifeHiscost]

God's children are not God's perfect children. For those who continue to serve Him, in whatever way He may ask of them, can have full assurance that there striving to reach the goals He sets for them, will be fulfilled through His enabling power in their lives.

God cares! Jesus saves!

[Ron Amnsn]

Of those who leave, what I'd like to know is this: before they left, (1) how often and how seriously were they studying the Word

(2) how often they were talking to God (3) how often they were involved in the activities of the church (4) if they were involved in sharing the Good News

I grew up in an active SDA family, participated in Pathfinders, Ingathering, Dorcas, etc. and was baptized at 12 and remained an SDA member until I was 38. I attended SDA schools from third grade through college. I latched on to EGW in academy and would quote from her writings in assignments to try to convince my Bible teacher to watch less TV. I shared EGW quotes with people who didn't want to hear them. (If any of you were my victims, I am sorry.) During college I read nearly all of EGW's published writings (I didn't read the R&H and Signs articles). Later I purchased the EGW CD-ROM to have access to the rest of her writings. It was during college that I started to learn to read the Bible in context, and began having questions about one of the SDA doctrines. After college and marriage, the more I studied the Bible, the more unanswered questions I had. I would get in trouble at church for asking questions about things I was finding in the Bible. People didn't want to answer those questions or to discuss those parts of the Bible. There was never an appropriate place to ask my Bible questions. The only attempt to answer my questions was when church people would give me SDA books written by "experts" who skirted around the issues that troubled me and quoted Bible passages out of context. When I asked an experienced SDA pastor to study my questions with me from the Bible, he refused and told me to take his word that my view of the Bible was wrong. During my last 7 years in the church I felt like I was the resident heretic.

Here are my answers to your questions:

1) I usually studied several times every week, and was as serious about studying the Bible as any other SDA that I had contact with. I was somewhat ill equipped for serious study then, but was headed in the right direction. I still actively study the Bible and share what I'm learning with anyone who will listen.

2) I prayed daily (besides at meals) as I had been taught. Most of my prayers were routine rather than "powerful". It was while I was telling God about the troubles the pastor was causing at the SDA school where my wife was a teacher that God very distinctly told me to drop my SDA membership. I responded by telling God all the reasons why I didn't want to do that, and when I got to the end of my list I realized that none of my reasons for staying in the SDA church were good reasons. Unfortunately, I delayed two more years before asking for my SDA membership to be dropped.

3) I was quite active in the church. My wife and I taught in SDA schools and held offices in the church. I was on the church board at times. I taught adult SS classes until they wouldn't have me anymore. I had always helped with evangelistic meetings (by filling a seat or running the sound system). During the last 7 years my involvement did taper off and we became active in a non-denominational church. The last year of my SDA membership was spent in a remote location where there were no SDA's other than my own family and no churches of any type. It was after being away from the "busy-ness" of church life and having lots of time to study the Bible that I realized that membership in the SDA organization was no longer a positive thing in my life.

4)Yes, I did share the good news in the limited way that I understood it then. I was a student missionary in college. After college I taught in SDA schools that couldn't afford to pay regular teacher salaries. However, as the years went by, the "good news" of the church seemed to focus more on the SDA organization than on Jesus. As the years progressed I couldn't pretend that the SDA organization was "good news" in my own life while it was pressuring me to overlook what is written in God's word.

[Kevin H]

Ron Amnsn: You have a number of good points. I hope that you will share your questions here. We have been quite open. We don't always give the party line answer, yet faithful to the 27/28. Most of our pastors are experts and get their advanced degrees in fields like "Church growth" and how to minister to different communities and church administration. The M. Div. degree only has 3 real Bible classes and a couple of spoon-feed theology classes, the rest are in topics such as Church Administration, evangelism etc. Others have degrees in Church history. the issue with the Desmond Ford situation is that he is an expert in what Luther and the other reformers, as well as different theologians through out history have interpreted Paul. Since his heyday there have been tremendous archaeological discoveries that help us to read Paul though the context of the first century, instead of like Ford, reading Paul through the filters of Augustine and Luther.

I respect others for what they have studied. And mine is limited to a Master's level from the early 1980s with some contact to learn a little bit about discoveries since (as well as contact with some who are more up to date) but instead of the M. Div. Church Administration and Church History, my focus was on the Bible classes and the historical context of the Bible and Mrs. White. And I am not a fundamentalist. I'm not worried about the contradictions in the Bible, in Mrs. White or between the two. And there are others here who have studied different perspectives than I have studied and when they write I read and learn. We are a cool group here willing to let the facts fall where they will.

[Gail]

Quote:

"How's your faith today?", or, "How's the battle going?"

Not trying to be snarky, but these are two great examples of SDA/Christian clichés which, to me, have always sounded like some sort of "code."

If someone is interested in how someone else's life is going, why would the word, "battle," be used? And in the presence of others, it's almost indicative of a foreknowledge of some problem or issue a particular person might be dealing with.... battle with alcohol, drugs, porn, abuse -- certainly things that I don't think should be public fodder. Even if the "battle" referred to is a battle of "self" or battle with evil in general, it's still a weird (to me) question.

And if one is only interested in someone else's faith level, that sounds equally as condescending. What about discovering someone's needs or issues by just **talking and listening** to him/her, as if s/he was the most important being on earth? Focus on the issues that are meaningful to people. ("Faith" is such a broad subject - it doesn't pin down any particular issue.)

If a question needs to be explained in order to be understood, then perhaps better opening questions might be used.

And folks shouldn't ask questions of someone unless they really mean to listen to the answers..

Those questions are not meant to be trite at all, but directed at what is going on with a person's soul. Many have heart struggles that they feel no one is interested in. If a person cannot be real with what is the real "them," in church, which I am afraid is the case too many times, where else will they find help and a listening ear?

It certainly will depend on the person and the relationship that person has with others as to whether someone feels comfortable with the question asked, and that is okay and understandable. But at least it shows that someone cares. And you are correct, if a person asks but doesn't listen afterward that would be a blow.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Quote:

Those questions are not meant to be trite at all, but directed at what is going on with a person's soul.

I understand that may be how many see it. The problem is that the questions are used so often, that they've become more of a common greeting along the same lines as, "How are you?" And people will invariably respond automatically with, "Fine." But, unfortunately, very few people want to take the time to follow up on the question they've posed. And it's usually done at church, where there are others around, preventing the conversation to become anything other than superficial. I personally do not like those types of questions....but maybe some really do...

My point is that there should be an underlying knowledge that if someone *is* having problems, that s/he shouldn't be waiting for someone else to inquire as to "how's the battle going," or some other similar question - the "church" should have the atmosphere whereby the people *know* they are important. ... and psychologically, before someone's inner ethereal life problems are addressed, a person's day-to-day physical and emotional issues and interests need to be addressed - at least that's what sounds reasonable to me...

Once a person understands and believes that their physical and emotional needs and interests are just as important to a church body, s/he will be drawn into the spiritual life of the church, as well...

Here's a personal example... I hadn't been to church in awhile, and I got a phone call from a friend asking if there was anything bothering me. The phone call was great - it allowed me to feel a modicum of privacy. I mentioned to him that I was worried about recent neighborhood house break-ins, and someone had smashed my garage door. I was worried that things inside my garage might be stolen. And I couldn't open the door, because it couldn't be closed afterwards. My friend said, "We can't have that..." and proceeded to offer me an editing job for which he would pay me the amount needed to get a new high security garage door.

While not everyone could offer help in the manner my friend did, there are certainly other ways members can offer to help....if they bothered to learn of needs and issues. I think C/A is one of the best places to learn about issues, both spiritual and non-spiritual, that are concerning folks today.

The Good News isn't going to sound very interesting to someone who is sick, hungry, cold, and worried about how to manage.

The Good News (no matter how relevant) isn't going to cut the mustard when someone is dealing with relationship break-ups, a child's death, job issues, or children-raising issues,

People want to be accepted. They want to have commonalities with other people. They want to belong.

Even though Jesus is said to have led a "solitary life," I don't think it was altogether pleasant. Even though He could talk with the Father, and He had His disciples at times, I think He was probably felt lonely and misunderstood a lot. I think that's one of the reasons a "church," an ekklesia, is designated by scriptures as being so important.

of course, I could be entirely wrong.....

[CoAspen]

Quote:

The Good News isn't going to sound very interesting to someone who is sick, hungry, cold, and worried about how to manage.

The Good News (no matter how relevant) isn't going to cut the mustard when someone is dealing with relationship break-ups, a child's death, job issues, or children-raising issues,

People want to be accepted. They want to have commonalities with other people. They want to belong.

Hmmm....Hmmmmm...good 'soup' for the soul!!

Excellent!

[Gail]

Well said!

[Gail]

"Engage" sounds like the word to come in handy here

[phkrause]

I can't speak for everybody at Andrews, but the times when I've visited there on Sabbaths, the congregation all seemed in a hurry to get out of the church at the end of the service because they had to rush over to the Student Center in order to get in line at the cafeteria. Or so it seemed to me. Their church service is quite late, so by the time it finishes, it's 12:45 or so, and I guess students are all famished by that time.

Just my observation.

That Jeannieb43, has been going on forever at our schools. When my brother was going to AUC, in the 70s, they were doing the same thing.

[LifeHiscost]

The good news is that he/she that endures to the end will be saved. As far as the present is concerned;

"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world."John 16:33 KJV

"And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake, but he who perseveres and endures to the end will be saved [from spiritual disease and death in the world to come]."

Matthew 10:22 AMP brackets theirs' LHC

God cares! Jesus saves!