Membership crisis

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

That is where you are having the disconnect. When you follow someone out of fear, where is the ending leading too? Happiness...really? I think not!!

When one reads fear into texts that God calls His Word, and it brings fear to their heart, should the Word be changed or is the thinking of the person who is fearful, needing a heart transplant.

"The commandments of the Lord are right, bringing joy to the heart. The commands of the Lord are clear, giving insight for living."Psalm 19:8 NLT

"O how love I thy law! it is my meditation all the day."Psalm 119:97 KJV

Jesus/God cares!

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

"Here's what I'd like done. You each have ideas of *how* to do it, so talk about the ideas amongst yourselves."

If that is the option Jesus suggested, the condition the world in general is now, is because of following that suggestion, believing the ideas we have are an improvement on His instruction, not to mention the condition of the fragmentation of the Christian church.

"And another angel followed, saying, “Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she has made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.”"Revelation 14:8 NKJV

God cares! Jesus saves!

[Kevin H]

Quote:

pillars to have room to agree to disagree and to listen to different views and make individual choices as to whether they see the ideas as useful or not

I really find it difficult to believe Jesus said to His disciples, "Here's what I believe we should do. What's your opinion."

Ok, so you disagree with our Pioneers and agree with the churches that kicked them out.

Anyway, referring to you above quote, in the Bible we don't find Jesus saying "Here's what I believe we should do..." We find him asking leading questions and leading to truth by having his disciples think about and discuss those questions.

As Fundamentalists we like the Bible writers to have been God's pen, with everything nice and smooth. However the Bible comes from different perspectives. They teach how the Holy Spirit has been guiding us through history and leading us more and more to truth. We can especially see these in the books that have more contrast between them such as Leviticus; Deuteronomy and Mark; Luke. Of course Satan has blinded our eyes with the Fundamentalist philosophy that we don't notice the differences and when pointed out we bend over backwards to smooth over the differences.

I get nervous when I see churches who label themselves "full gospel" Jesus was the only one who was "Full Gospel" once you get to his disciples you have 12 perspectives of the gospel. There are two ditches: One is thinking that we are the final authority and that we have arrived and that everyone else is to line up. This was the issue of the beast in Revelation 13. The other is that there is no ultimate truth. That all truth is existential to our experience. That your truth may not be my truth, but that's ok, let's just love each other. If you really look at what Mrs. White says about spiritualism; it is not the séances etc. The occult is only one way of spreading the message of spiritualism. As Christians we tend to see the dangers of spiritualism, however we are in danger of avoiding spiritualism by clinging to the beast. (and because we are not clinging to Rome we don't think we are clinging to the spirit of the Papacy).

What we are to do is discuss and study and to follow the Bible to the best of our understanding and to be fair in sharing what we understand, to listen to what other's have studied and see what we can learn or not learn from them and be fair where we disagree.

[CoAspen]

[M. T. Cross]

I get nervous whenever anyone claims to have the "TRUTH".

For one, on the off chance that there is one great truth, I am wholly convinced that the human mind would never be able to handle it. That could be the reason that all prophetic types, from every belief system and culture, all ended up mad raving lunatics.

When someone or some group goes around claiming to have the great truth, it leads to nothing but grandiose delusions of self importance, self loathing, and these things are folly.

This worry about membership is a numbers game,as I see it, and that's the result of several things. One is money, you can deny it all you want, but it takes cash to run an organization. The other is self importance. An organization likes to stand up and boast about how big they are because it makes it look like what they are doing is that much more important. Thats not wholly a bad thing, but its a dangerous path to go down because its hard to keep control of. THe problem is that no-one wants to admit that the money and the boasting rights are part of the equation.

About the whole thing of how people show up to church looking, its also deceptive. The worry is not so much about if that person is honouring their God properly, its about appearances to others. No-one wants the public to see someone looking "wrong" walking out of their church. Its elitist, condescending and disgusting. A place of worship should be about honouring the deity in question, not about fashion sense.

[AnotherMan]

We will have a membership crisis, we will have people going after the world - it will make us sad, but we should take heed least we fall.

read 1 cor 10:1-12 - people who saw the very miracles of God were commandment breakers (that being said had no love for God).

We now have typology, and prophecy and if that does not prick the conscience or wake someone up what else can us humans do?

Its not our job to convict but to proclaim truth - we know none will listen but we need to proclaim it as a witness.

If our children depart from the faith, claim Gods promises in faith for that is all we have and can really do.

My children are young but I can imagine what many are saying here.

[Kevin H]

I really find it difficult to believe Jesus said to His disciples, "Here's what I believe we should do. What's your opinion."

Another issue that I see here is that we all know in part and we prophecy in part. We are either doing our best to follow the Bible, or we are rejecting the Bible.

I honestly understand Mrs. White to have taken us to what was the traditional view that Jesus had his own unique nature. Not the nature of Adam before the fall and not the sinful nature of mankind after the fall. When that paper was demanding that the church accept and enforce the belief that Jesus had the sinful nature of mankind after the fall, they are commanding me to reject what I honestly believe the Bible and Mrs. White to teach for the commandments of men.

There are those who oppose women's ordination for the reasons given in Dr. Home's book "The Tip of the Iceberg" which sees it as coming up with excuses not to follow the Bible. If the only reasons for women's ordination was what Dr. Homes brought up in his book, I would be very vocal in my opposition to it as well. However, that book only looks at liberal theology. The problem with that book is, when we learn more about the historical context of the Bible, there is evidence that women were ordained in Old Testament times. That women's ordination was a hot topic in Jesus day. What were the arguments back then and who was for it and who was against it? And that reading the Bible in that context we find Jesus ordaining women, and looking closer at Paul and the context of the anti-women's ordination "Proof Texts" that those texts was not discussing women's ordination and that as we study Acts we find Paul supportive of women's ordination.

Thus we are in a situation of some of us are fearful that if we ordain women that we are going against their proof texts and thus rejecting the Bible. Others of us understand the Bible and Mrs. White to support the ordination of women. Thus for us to reject women's ordination, we are in a position to reject the word of God for a tradition of man being taught in it's place.

The view of our pioneers, the disagreements between Leviticus/Deuteronomy and Mark/Luke gives us skills on how we can deal with the about situations yet still be Seventh-day Adventists.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

Not the nature of Adam before the fall and not the sinful nature of mankind after the fall.

This might answer some questions for those who see the source as reliable.

The holy angels were horror-stricken that one who had been of their number could fall so far as to be capable of such cruelty. Every sentiment of sympathy or pity which they had ever felt for Satan in his exile, was quenched in their hearts. That his envy should be exercised in such a revenge upon an innocent person was enough to strip him of his assumed robe of celestial light, and to reveal the hideous deformity beneath; but to manifest such malignity toward the divine Son of God, who had, with unprecedented self-denial, and love for the creatures formed in his image, come from Heaven and assumed their fallen nature, was such a heinous crime against Heaven that it caused the angels to shudder with horror, and severed forever the last tie of sympathy existing between Satan and the heavenly world. Satan had put forth extraordinary efforts against Jesus from the time he appeared as a babe in Bethlehem. He had sought in every possible manner to prevent him from developing a perfect childhood, a faultless manhood, a holy ministry, and an infinite sacrifice in yielding up his life without a murmur for the sins of men. But Satan had been unable to discourage him, or to drive him from the work he had come on earth to do. The storm of Satan’s wrath beat upon him from the desert to Calvary; but the more mercilessly it fell, the more firmly did the Son of God cling to the hand of his Father, and press on in the bloodstained path before him. All the efforts of Satan to oppress and overwhelm him, only brought out in a purer light the spotless character of Christ. {3SP 183.2} Underlined mine LHC

God cares! Jesus saves!

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

a ruler who has absolute power.

God does have absolute power. On the other hand He has been and is willing to share that power by giving the children of men the right of free choice, which of course would make Him different than an autocrat. Because of mans' inherent nature to want to be "top gun", he often believes he can improve on what the Word says has been ordained, the results being evident in the lives of the vast majority of human kind. This is a result of conclusions contrary to the Perfect will, which can only be less than fully Perfect, that perfection that was ordained long before man existed.

"And do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God." Romans 12:2 NKJV

God cares! Jesus saves!

[Kevin H]

LifeHiscost, taking a "proof quote" out of it's larger context is not a convincing argument for me to reject the Bible and Mrs. White to follow the traditions of man.

[LifeHiscost]

LifeHiscost, taking a "proof quote" out of it's larger context is not a convincing argument for me to reject the Bible and Mrs. White to follow the traditions of man.

Most individuals rely on other sources beyond themselves to give them peace in choosing the path in which, for them, gives them greatest reward. If it works for you I encourage you to pursue the course you've chosen. If your desire is to make the Creator your Master, He will bend all His efforts to keep you on the path of righteousness.

Some believe themselves to be all the wisdom necessary to convince themselves of that which is true. I choose the Word to give me that peace. It's proof enough for me. All are free to choose other methods.

"I am not ashamed: for I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have committed unto him against that day.

Hold fast the form of sound words,.... in faith and love which is in Christ Jesus."2 Timothy 1:11-13 KJV

""And we know that the Son of God has come, and he has given us understanding so that we can know the true God. And now we live in fellowship with the true God because we live in fellowship with his Son, Jesus Christ. He is the only true God, and he is eternal life."

1 John 5:20 NLT

God/Jesus saves!

[Kevin H]

I was writing that last post to also illustrate the problem. You have what you understand and I think I'm safe to assume that you honestly believe that you are following what the Bible and Mrs. White teaches.

I have read a large number of her quotes, heard all three sides of the argument, while I don't remember if I read it from cover to cover, I read at least a large amount of Elder Larson's book on the topic. I've studied the historical context and a bit of those who she was quoting. Different ways she phrased the issue and how she worded things talking about the sin issue. I believe that you are taking a quote and reading ideas into her words that does not fit the bigger picture of her thought. I honestly believe that I am following what Mrs. White believed.

Now the issue is will you demand me give up what I honestly believe she was teaching and force me to follow your views which I see is no more valid than someone quoting the story of the rich man and Lazarus for the dead going to heaven or hell at death.

Shall I demand you accept my understanding? Shall I kick you out of the church because you don't hold my view on this topic? Shall we take a vote over whether to keep in the Bible Leviticus or Deuteronomy and throw out the other one? Shall we take a vote as to whether we should keep Mark or Luke and throw out the other one? Or shall we continue to want to search for truth and discuss and grow?

[LifeHiscost]

Christ was God.

You and I are not.

You and I are sometimes wrong.

Christ was not wrong.

The very reason I choose to use the Word as opposed to my opinion.

OTOH

"“You search the Scriptures because you think they give you eternal life. But the Scriptures point to me!"John 5:39 NLT

"Jesus said to him, “I am the.....truth,.... No one comes to the Father except through Me."

John 14:6 NKJV

Jesus saves! God cares!

[LifeHiscost]

I've seen no demands from anyone.

Quote:

Or shall we continue to want to search for truth and discuss and grow?

I've found the reading of the Word on a regular basis, far more enlightening than the cacophony of ideas declaring that "this is what that means", although I have benefited greatly from various individuals from more in depth language, archeological, and some theological and preaching professionals or evangelists.

Very often I find even from those persons I trust to give the Truth as they know it, worth listening carefully to, to avoid accepting inconsistent declarations they might themselves admit after further consideration, worth changing their mind about.

I quote from the Word because I find it to be true. If you don't and are correct in the denial of it's truth, I'm sure God will reward you for your effort to reveal deception.

"Truthful words stand the test of time, but lies are soon exposed."Proverbs 12:19 NLT

"“Look, I will come as unexpectedly as a thief! Blessed are all who are watching for me, who keep their clothing ready so they will not have to walk around naked and ashamed.”Revelation 16:15 NLT

God cares! Jesus saves!

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Quote:

I quote from the Word because I find it to be true. If you don't and are correct in the denial of it's truth, I'm sure God will reward you for your effort to reveal deception.

"Truthful words stand the test of time, but lies are soon exposed." Proverbs 12:19 NLT

“Look, I will come as unexpectedly as a thief! Blessed are all who are watching for me, who keep their clothing ready so they will not have to walk around naked and ashamed.” Revelation 16:15 NLT

several things come to mind as I read the above...

1) there seems to be an abysmal lack of courtesy in the post,

2) somehow this very important thread is becoming wallowed down in (once again) a defense of accusing the brethren,

3) it's not the sort of post that furthers the cause of God, that helps anyone see anything more clearly, or that makes anyone wish to engage in dialog.

No wonder people leave.

[Kevin H]

LifeHiscost: This is not the place to discuss the nature of Christ, we can do that on other threads. You were just asking me about a post I gave, and I was saying that there is a difference between discussing topics and trying to fairly present my view, and to try to be fair to the other views as opposed to the spirit of demanding "I'm completely right, here is my proof text now you better line up and start toeing the line." which was the spirit that the churches had that kicked out our pioneers.

Jesus has called us to be his witnesses, not the prosecuting attorney. You wanted to know just "who" I had in mind, but it is not a matter of "who" but how that I'm concerned with. I've even seen someone who I was in complete agreement with, however they were demanding people to accept his views and I was just as upset with him and have distanced myself from him due to this spirit as if we saw eye to eye on nothing.

[LifeHiscost]

It might be worthwhile to the original poster to give a form with each new thread similar to that which companies that are selling goods do, that covers all the legal regulations and ramifications that one can and cannot do, so that all who desire to post will understand clearly, no idea contrary to the original posters understanding or sensibilities are offended.

This would insure no one could disagree with any possible difference of opinion, especially if a box left unchecked for agreement would automatically render unable to enter the field of discourse with fines for lack of cooperation with the agreement. So much for freedom of speech.

I moved from Townhall in order to keep from offending those not wishing any theology on the pages of that forum. Then was followed to the forums for religious discussion and find Townhall's frequenters came to the theology threads to express their disapproval. I'm still mulling over in my mind whether to follow an example worthy of pursuing.

God cares! Jesus saves!

[CoAspen]

Comprehension failure........

[LifeHiscost]

Comprehension failure........

God is Willing to Teach Others—The idea that one man’s mind and judgment can mold and direct important interests, and that he can be regarded as a voice for the people, is a great evil, and has, and still continues to endanger the one who is placed in a position of responsibility, and those also who cooperate with him. God has not given to any one man all the wisdom, and wisdom will not die with him. Those placed in positions of trust should modestly regard the opinions of others as worthy of respect and likely to be as correct as their own. They should remember that God has made other men just as valuable as they are, and that God is willing to teach and guide these men.—Manuscript 55, 1897 (June 3, 1897, Development of Workers). {ChL 36.4}

Underlined mine LHC

God cares! Jesus saves!

[Gregory Matthews]

Life:

When one quotes EGW it is always good to give the context. That will likely include who she was speaking to, and the circumstances around which she decided to speak or write. The context helps us to understand what EGW had in mind when she spoke or wrote.

In order to under to understand the context, it is helpful to also know what she said/wrote just prior to and following the cited passage.

While you did not give any of the context, here is a larger quotation from which you took your brief citation:

Quote:

Many of those who have responsibilities laid upon them, who are chosen to be presidents of conferences, are not selected because of their perfection of character, or

because of their superior knowledge, but because the Lord signified that if they would be humble enough to learn and not think they were all ready to graduate, He would

teach them His way. There is much for men in responsible positions to learn. {9MR151.2}

When men feel that their ideas are without a flaw, it is time for them to change their position from president to that of a learner. When they think that their ideas, their judgment, should be accepted without question, they show that they are unfit for this position. God sees not as man sees. Whatever position a man may be called to fill, his judgment is not to be regarded as unerring. His entrusted responsibility makes it far more needful than it otherwise would be for him to be free from all egotism, and willing to receive counsel. {9MR 151.3}

A Great Evil

The idea that one man's mind and judgment can mold and direct important interests, and that he can be regarded as a voice for the people, is a great evil, and has[endangered], and still continues to endanger, the one who is placed in a position of responsibility, and those also who cooperate with him. God has not given to any one man all the wisdom, and wisdom will not die with him. Those placed in positions of trust should modestly regard the opinions of others as worthy of respect and likely to be as correct as their own. They should remember that God has made other men just as

valuable as they are, and that God is willing to teach and guide these men. -152- {9MR 151.4}

Those placed in positions of trust should have connected with them as helpers men whose minds do not run in exactly the same lines as their own. To every man has been given talents, according to his several abilities. One mind may have a larger scope than another. When men are linked together, each supplies the other's deficiency, and thus they are a complete whole. But one man cannot bear the responsibilities which

necessarily fall upon him if he is placed in sacred office.

God would have His people linked together, doing His work in perfect harmony.--Manuscript 55, 1897, p. 3. {9MR 152.1}

It is clear from the above that EGW was speaking to Conference Presidents and how the leadership of the Conferences should be that of a group of people rather that that of one person. In short, she was saying that the responsibilities of a Conference President were more than one person could handle.

I note that you seem to have taken your citation from a 1985 publication: CHRISTIAN LEADERSHIP. At least that is how I understand your reference to "ChL," which was a 1985 publication. I wonder how many people have that book available to them? Probably not very many.

Well, it was good of you to give enough of a reference so that I was able to access the original MS (It is on the Internet) and read your quotation in greater length.

Here is the URL for any who would like to check me:

http://secondadventrevival.org/docs/EG%2...s%20Vol%209.pdf

The above URL will give you 236 ages of material. For the context of what I cited begin reading about at page 149 and read forward.

[JoeMo]

Back to topic...

I don't think a 'membership crisis is unique to Adventism. Go to any main stream denomination's church, and you will see mostly older people. Younger people don't desire the the formal structure and list of rules presented by big traditional denominations. I agree with MT from an earlier post that the membership crisis boils down a numbers/money game. It's not all bad; money is needed to support any organized mission. But when "how will we grow the work?" really means "how do we increase tithes and offerings" or "how do we turn more people into Adventists", we have lost our first love. When it means "how can we bring more people to Christ", our hearts are in the right place. The work will continue with or without Adventism (or any other denomination). Didn't jesus say the very rocks would cry out?

The churches that are growing are non-denominational churches. While "non-denominational" is kind of misleading (the ones I'm familiar with have some core doctrines), they share one thing - tolerance and acceptance. Some have both Sabbath and Sunday services. Some freely accept people that more formal churches would outright reject - gays, drunks, drug addicts, etc. I split my time between 2 churches - one a Sabbath-keeping non-denominational and the other an SDA church. I love them both.

[CoAspen]

Relevant. How do we maintain/find that? The religious leaders of Christs day were not. We see from the gospels thatt Christ was and they flocked to him, all ages. Maybe that is the model we should look at.

[JoeMo]

Quote:

How do we maintain/find that?

I think we should try taking Jesus to the streets. For 150 years, we have been trying to bring people to church. That worked really well for about 120 years but let's face it - people don't have (or won't make) time to go to church for 2 hours a night, 6 days a week for 3 weeks for evangelism meetings. We need to go on the offensive. Jesus didn't invite people to synogogue; He went to the streets to meet them. That's a model for us. Start a "Book Club" (my moniker for a workday bible study I have once a week). Bring non-perishable food, socks, and underwear to the homeless. Go out and "heal" people (even if they don't get healed, it can't hurt). Just be a blessing wherever you are! When people know that you care about them, they will care right back about you. Don't worry about making them Adventists; make them followers of Jesus.

One other thing - stealing members from another Christian community doesn't count. Stealing sheep may solve a "membership crisis" in your denomination but it does nothing to bolster the Body of Christ. Sheep stealing is eqiuvalent to moving a civic-minded person from the Elk's Club to the Lion's Club It may hurt one and help the other; but it does nothing to increase the number of civic-minded citizens. Unless we are making believers out of non-believers, we're not making an impact for the Kingdom.

[LifeHiscost]

I really appreciated your willingness to read the full context of where my original post referred and I'm in complete agreement with your assessment.

However I would suggest that even though the context obviously was focused on leaders, the principles "voiced" are not different for each individual but remain the same, although because of each person's adherence to practical application of those same principles, one will grow more than another in acceptance who might not be ready yet for that close a shift of personal conduct.

As an example;

"One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day alike. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. " Romans 14:5 NKJV

Now it's plain the context refers to a day. However the principle applies to all of the Scriptures and only the choices made will determine whether we grow in grace or, God forbid, we slide into the path of perdition.

Even the risk of our receiving unhealthy, and sometimes positively dangerous consequences, the right to free will is never removed by our Father in Heaven. Hopefully in making a poor choice, the consequences will cause us to reach out to hold the hand of He Who makes no mistakes in choices, even as Peter did when his short walk on the water revealed his recognition of needed dependence on Divine enabling as he began to sink.

God's blessings Jesus saves!

[JoeMo]