Membership crisis

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

The good news is that he/she that endures to the end will be saved. As far as the present is concerned;

"These things I have spoken unto you, that in me ye might have peace. In the world ye shall have tribulation: but be of good cheer; I have overcome the world."John 16:33 KJV

"And you will be hated by all for My name’s sake, but he who perseveres and endures to the end will be saved [from spiritual disease and death in the world to come]."

I'm not sure how much relevance and comfort that statement and those out-of-context texts would be to someone who has issues they want to talk about, and perhaps is desperate. It's as if they're being told to "buck up," and that their current needs are not important.

If that's what a church family is telling their people, no wonder the demographics of the church might consist of unhappy, disheartened people who eventually leave and seek a place where they feel like they belong.

[Gail]

It could be, but I think it might depend on the tone of the comment. A person who has "been there" may say that to encourage one to hang on just a bit longer.

[Gail]

I take that back. I think I may word it a bit differently. If I would like to encourage someone that is sticking out a bad thing I think I would find words that are a custom fit to the person.

I have friends that I can quote Scripture to, but that doesn't always fit the situation. Help will be better if it comes from God AND those who are willing to be His hands to those with whom we come in contact. There are some times, like over cyber space, where prayer is the best we can offer. But within a local church there is the best opportunity to help. It helps to simply make oneself available.

[CoAspen]

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It helps to simply make oneself available.

Hmmmm.....Hmmmm........good!!

[Sojourner]

Why not simply free up young people to plant new churches? That is what is done here in Australia and the results are that the SDA is one of the fastest growing denominations on the east coast of Australia as a result. Same denomination, different styles of worship, people of all backgrounds can generally find a congregation where they will fit in if they do not fill the accepted norm of a what a traditional person thinks an SDA should be.

[Kevin H]

Why not simply free up young people to plant new churches? That is what is done here in Australia and the results are that the SDA is one of the fastest growing denominations on the east coast of Australia as a result. Same denomination, different styles of worship, people of all backgrounds can generally find a congregation where they will fit in if they do not fill the accepted norm of a what a traditional person thinks an SDA should be.

AMEN!!!! We are a movement which can be useful to a broad range of people, but there are too many who want a one size fits all. Much of our problems is while we are passionate for what has been useful in our spiritual growth, instead of just sharing, we try to force everyone to become just like us.

[Gail]

Last night I viewed a video clip of a young Aussie SS teacher who includes he parents of her Cradle Roll class with the toddlers. The DVD is entitled, "Playful Worship." You can find a few examples of Playful Worship on YouTube. It sure looks like a lot of fun!

It is a good example of how to make worship positive and happy and include grown-ups and kids altogether :)

[LifeHiscost]

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we try to force everyone to become just like us

Care to share who is doing that and elaborate on how one would be recognized as an enforcer of the Truth?

Jesus/God saves!

[JoeMo]

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Care to share who is doing that and elaborate on how one would be recognized as an enforcer of the Truth?

I know this question wasn't directed at me, but I must answer. Sorry if I'm meddling.

To quote Pilate, "What is truth?" Is it our own private interpretation of scripture according to our world view? Is it a denomination's interpretation of the truth filtered through its 19th century Victorian culture? Or is it a person named Jesus Christ who not only told us how to live; but showed us how to live? When am I living the truth - when I emulate Jesus Christ in the healing, mercy, and forgiveness that He showed everyone, or when I strive to perfectly keep the Law (the way I or my denomination interprets it); and rebuking those who don't do likewise?

As far as being an enforcer of the truth, is that our job? Or are we to simply be witnesses to the Truth by the way we live? Catholicism at one time tried to be an enforcer of truth (the way they understood it) and it resulted in a permanaent black mark against the denomination. Islam is currently trying to be an "enforcer of the truth" (the way they see it); and it's working out about as well as it did for 16th and 17th century Catholicism.

[CoAspen]

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Or are we to simply be witnesses to the Truth by the way we live?

YES

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As far as being an enforcer of the truth, is that our job?

NO

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"What is truth?" Or is it a person named Jesus Christ who not only told us how to live; but showed us how to live?

YES

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When am I living the truth - when I emulate Jesus Christ in the healing, mercy, and forgiveness that He showed everyone,.....

YES

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,,,,when I strive to perfectly keep the Law (the way I or my denomination interprets it); and rebuking those who don't do likewise?

NO, The BIGGEST NO!

[LifeHiscost]

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,,,,when I strive to perfectly keep the Law (the way I or my denomination interprets it); and rebuking those who don't do likewise?

NO, The BIGGEST NO!

Since Love (God) gave the Ten, which part of His Love would you like to throw out.

"O how love I thy law! it is my meditation all the day."Psalm 119:97 KJV

God cares! Jesus saves!

[Gregory Matthews]

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Since Love (God) gave the Ten, which part of His Love would you like to throw out.

None. There was nothing to indicate that any part of the 10 should be thrown out.

[CoAspen]

Comprehension...again.....read the topic w/o any preconceived opinion and 'listen' to the poster!

The question is about the disconnect between what is 'talked' and what is 'practiced', does that perhaps have something to do with loss of 'membership'.

[LifeHiscost]

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Since Love (God) gave the Ten, which part of His Love would you like to throw out.

None. There was nothing to indicate that any part of the 10 should be thrown out.

Sometimes, and more often than not, the core is not understood as clearly without the peripheral descriptions. As an example, I would not have understood my need of a Savior, which is the core, had not the peripherals of explanation found in the Ten Words been understood.

God/Jesus cares!

[Kevin H]

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we try to force everyone to become just like us

Care to share who is doing that and elaborate on how one would be recognized as an enforcer of the Truth?

Jesus/God saves!

Seventh-day Adventism has different subgroups. Some of us are more Methodist in approach, others have a morbid obsession to prove to the world that we are good Baptists. Some are more focused on the writings of the Reformers, some are more focused on archaeological discoveries. Some are focused on Jones and Wagner, others may give lip service to Jones and Wagner but side more with the anti Jones and Wagner ideas. Some like the book "Questions on Doctrine" Some have criticisms of the book but that it has it's good points, and some absolutely hate the book and have trimmed everything from their beliefs that could remotely sound like anything from that book. Some love "The Clear Word" others read it as an interesting book but disagree here and there. Some believe that Jesus had the nature of Adam before the fall. Others believe that he had the nature of mankind after the fall, and others believe that both sides are wrong, that when you study Church history, and the sources Mrs. White was using, that Jesus had his own unique nature.

We can either share our understanding and if others find it useful then praise God. If they don't then they are free to worship according to the dictates of their own conscience. But every once in a while the different sub groups start demanding that the whole church follows what the particular sub group believes. For example, I remember once reading in a journal of a group that believes that Jesus had the nature of mankind after the fall, where it was demanding the General Conference accept their view on the nature of Jesus and enforce it upon all church members. While they have become more moderate, fir a while the Adventist Theological Society was pushy. There is concern that our current General Conference President has been using his position to try to be more pushy of his views than other General Conference Presidents believed was with in their scope of duty.

While I get upset when people completely misrepresent another group and demand fairness, if I was to demand that all of you accept my view of hell fire, or if I was to demand that all of you accept that Jesus had his own unique nature then I'd be equally wrong.

We should be fair to others, try to present our understandings in winsome ways, but respect the different threads and as long as it is not way out of line or fanatical, we should allow room for discussion. I hope this helps.

[Gregory Matthews]

In addition:

There are individuals who seem to have no sense of what is important and what is not important and then demand that their view must be accepted in order to be a true Adventist.

Some people come to this forum primarily to argue and see if they can convince others to accept their view. I am thinking of an individual, not a SDA, who has a detailed history of going to another denominational forum (not an Adventist forum) and getting arguments going there, just as he does here.

[JoeMo]

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Since Love (God) gave the Ten, which part of His Love would you like to throw out.

Again, pardon me for meddling; but my read of CoAspen's resonse was not throwing out a Commandment or two; but rebuking others for not living up to our view of God's standards. (Correct me if I have misread you, CoAspen). I have removed many planks from my eyes in the past; and I have a lot more to remove before I am qualified to remove the mote from my brother's eye.

[JoeMo]

A thought just struck me. This thread seems to share a concern about people leaving Adventism. If a person leaves the denomination for a more fulfilling and intimate relationship with Jesus elsewhere, the corporate church may have lost a tithe-payer, but just maybe the believer has entered into a deeper spiriual encounter elsewhere. I say Amen! God has each of us on a seperate and very personal path. God's path for each person may be different, but it's perfect for that person. Some people need what Adventism has to offer to keep them on their path; others don't. If a person finds intimacy with Christ elsewhere, more power to them.

Now if peopleleave the denomination cuz they have lost their faith in God or the supernatural, that's a different story. I pity those people. The tragedy is people turning away from their Savior, not turning away from Adventism. I am saved by Jesus Christ not by Adventism.

[CoAspen]

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The tragedy is people turning away from their Savior, not turning away from Adventism. I am saved by Jesus Christ not by Adventism.

Agree......

[LifeHiscost]

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Seventh-day Adventism has different subgroups. Some of us are more Methodist in approach, others have a morbid obsession to prove to the world that we are good Baptists. Some are more focused on the writings of the Reformers, some are more focused on archaeological discoveries. Some are focused on Jones and Wagner, others may give lip service to Jones and Wagner but side more with the anti Jones and Wagner ideas. Some like the book "Questions on Doctrine" Some have criticisms of the book but that it has it's good points, and some absolutely hate the book and have trimmed everything from their beliefs that could remotely sound like anything from that book. Some love "The Clear Word" others read it as an interesting book but disagree here and there. Some believe that Jesus had the nature of Adam before the fall. Others believe that he had the nature of mankind after the fall, and others believe that both sides are wrong, that when you study Church history, and the sources Mrs. White was using, that Jesus had his own unique nature.

"And when the day of Pentecost was fully come, they were all with one accord in one place."Acts 2:2 KJV

The description of the beginning of the body of believers who chose to carry the gospel to all the world.

"He gave a mighty shout: “Babylon is fallen—that great city is fallen! She has become a home for demons. She is a hideout for every foul spirit, a hideout for every foul vulture and every foul and dreadful animal."Revelation 18:2 NLT

The description of an endtime body of believers who have many different ideas of what God desires of His people as history draws to a close.

"And ye shall be hated of all men for my name's sake: but he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved."Mark 13:13 KJV

The picture of those who are kept and remain faithful unto the end, will be delivered safely from this world, for the glory of God.

God cares! Jesus saves!

[Kevin H]

I'm sorry LifeHiscost, but there is a difference between unity and uniformity. Look at all the differences between Leviticus and Deuteronomy, or the differences between Mark and Luke.

The Catholic Church tried to have uniformity. Even the early Protestants started out trying to get uniformity, but then there came Rodger Williams who traded uniformity for unity.

The Millerites were thrown out of their churches because the churches wanted uniformity rather than unity. The Adventists decided to unite over a couple of pillar doctrines but outside of the pillars to have room to agree to disagree and to listen to different views and make individual choices as to whether they see the ideas as useful or not. Are you siding with the churches that kicked us out? Sure sounds like it.

Too many of us believe that the solution of the Corinthian problem is to throw out Peter, Apollos and Jesus.

[LifeHiscost]

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pillars to have room to agree to disagree and to listen to different views and make individual choices as to whether they see the ideas as useful or not

I really find it difficult to believe Jesus said to His disciples, "Here's what I believe we should do. What's your opinion."

God cares! Jesus saves!

[CoAspen]

A good leader always leaves room for discussion. If no discussion there is no leader but an autocrat.

autocrat

noun

a ruler who has absolute power.

• someone who insists on complete obedience from others; an imperious or domineering person.

I see nothing in the life of Christ that make Him such, despite your attempts, but rather He wanted people to follow Him out of choice. That is where you are having the disconnect. When you follow someone out of fear, where is the ending leading too? Happiness...really? I think not!!

[Gregory Matthews]

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I really find it difficult to believe Jesus said to His disciples, "Here's what I believe we should do. What's your opinion."

Christ was God.

You and I are not.

You and I are sometimes wrong.

Christ was not wrong.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

I really find it difficult to believe Jesus said to His disciples, "Here's what I believe we should do. What's your opinion."

I find it more likely that Jesus might have said, "Here's what I'd like done. You each have ideas of *how* to do it, so talk about the ideas amongst yourselves."