Why is it hard?

[Tom Wetmore]

One response to the question of whether I could understand the perspective of what it means to be black that used to bother me was, "It's a black thing, you wouldn't understand." I am a reasonably intelligent person, I think I am capable of understanding things. I can figure out many complicated things. I should be able to understand if someone would just try to explain it to me.

But then I learned of the idea of emotional intelligence, social intelligence, experiential intelligence. I realized that emotional and experiential knowledge and understanding are very different from intellectual knowledge, intelligence and understanding. And then I better understand the book I read so many years ago, "Black Like Me". It had had a deep effect on me when I read it. But now I could better understand why. It forced me toward empathy. It was more than an intellectual understanding. I allowed myself to open the experience and emotion of racism. I think this is a clue to why it is hard to talk about race issues. They are emotional. They reflect our experience on a very visceral level. That is hard to talk about, even to articulate accurately on an intellectual level. And it is hard to understand that from another person's emotional experience. I have gotten better at it as I have gotten older.

The closest I have come to experiencing the idea of even being conspicuously different was as a student missionary in Indonesia. I was head and shoulders taller than most of the brown skinned, black haired Indonesians. My white face and blonde hair stood out. I could not blend into a crowd. I was always an object of curiosity. Not understanding the language and having people look at you point, giggle and whisper, could make you a bit paranoid.

But the real difference was that my experience was mostly positive. Westerners at that time were welcomed with open arms. The people were warm, friendly, kind and generous. So my emotional memory is pleasant and positive. That difference makes all the difference in the world so my experience is not a good indicator of the black experience because the emotional memory is so very different. Negative emotional events etch a very deep memory scar.

I think that we need to set aside our preconceived ideas and listen to others' stories, their experience, their emotional memories. Listen and learn. Feel and experience their stories with them as best we can. Listen and understand with empathy.

Then we can talk about it. It gets easier that way.

[CoAspen]

A great book and should be read by everyone discussing race. Good ideas, you have presented!

[phkrause]

very much

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Here's an additional thought ...

How in the world can any Christian tell an African American (or anyone, for that matter) to "get over what happened to your ancestors?"....

Ancestors are important. They are part of you. You are the result of their combined lives. Christians are supposedly part of the "family of God."

Christ was crucified over 2000 years ago. I don't hear anyone going around telling Christians to "just get over it and move on..." The actions of Christians are [supposed to be] predicated on the life of Christ and what happened to Him...

[bonnie]

Here's an additional thought ...

How in the world can any Christian tell an African American (or anyone, for that matter) to "get over what happened to your ancestors?"....

Ancestors are important. They are part of you. You are the result of their combined lives. Christians are supposedly part of the "family of God."

Christ was crucified over 2000 years ago. I don't hear anyone going around telling Christians to "just get over it and move on..." The actions of Christians are [supposed to be] predicated on the life of Christ and what happened to Him...

So you are saying that I should not get over the horrors of what my ancestors went thru?

I should hang onto the horrors of my ancestors forced to watch the rape and torture of their wives and daughters and then forced to witness as their throats were slit?

Some burned alive.

To keep animosity alive for the descendents of those that committed these acts. That is what I don't consider christian

[M. T. Cross]

Maybe the reason its hard to talk about race is we never know if we are talking about race as in a global issue or racial tensions in the U.S. (which of course all things must revolve around)

[M. T. Cross]

So you are saying that I should not get over the horrors of what my ancestors went thru?

I should hang onto the horrors of my ancestors forced to watch the rape and torture of their wives and daughters and then forced to witness as their throats were slit?

Some burned alive.

I am of an Irish, Welsh,and Norwegian heritage. If I am watching international sports or a movie I will always root against Swedish and English teams or characters just because of the things they did to my ancestors. But I don't hate Swedish or English people, I just like to stick true to my ancestory

[bonnie]

I am of an Irish, Welsh,and Norwegian heritage. If I am watching international sports or a movie I will always root against Swedish and English teams or characters just because of the things they did to my ancestors. But I don't hate Swedish or English people, I just like to stick true to my ancestory

Maybe I am not true to my ancestory then.I see little reason to hang onto what happened to my ancestors. Making sure that it is never forgotten.

I can't imagine going thru what they did.However those that were directly impacted managed to let the past be the past and thrive.

I doubt if they could have become as successful as they did had they not done so

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

Originally Posted By: rudywoofs

Here's an additional thought ...

How in the world can any Christian tell an African American (or anyone, for that matter) to "get over what happened to your ancestors?"....

Ancestors are important. They are part of you. You are the result of their combined lives. Christians are supposedly part of the "family of God."

Christ was crucified over 2000 years ago. I don't hear anyone going around telling Christians to "just get over it and move on..." The actions of Christians are [supposed to be] predicated on the life of Christ and what happened to Him...

So you are saying that I should not get over the horrors of what my ancestors went thru?

I should hang onto the horrors of my ancestors forced to watch the rape and torture of their wives and daughters and then forced to witness as their throats were slit?

Some burned alive.

To keep animosity alive for the descendents of those that committed these acts. That is what I don't consider christian

Bonnie, you totally missed my point...

I could expound *greatly* on this subject, but it's not worth my time and effort when someone is purposely reading baloney into what I write.

[bonnie]

How in the world can any Christian tell an African American (or anyone, for that matter) to "get over what happened to your ancestors?"....

Ancestors are important. They are part of you. You are the result of their combined lives. Christians are supposedly part of the "family of God."

Christ was crucified over 2000 years ago. I don't hear anyone going around telling Christians to "just get over it and move on..." The actions of Christians are [supposed to be] predicated on the life of Christ and what happened to Him...

Forgiveness was a large part of the life of Christ.I see very little of that relating to this. Unless that happens and it seems a long way off race will always be there.

I can either keep alive what happened to my ancestors and use it for reasons why I do what I do today,or I can accept that it happened.Evil and wrong but not something I need to hang onto.I am the only one responsible for what I do today. Not those that butchered part of my mother's family

Part of our family history. What has been kept alive within the family is the resilience and the ability to thrive in spite of it.Not a desire to extract payment for the next how many years.

[bonnie]

I don't think most people are racist,but it is made to sound as that is the case. Every little word and perceived slight by both races is examined and studied to get the most mileage out of the race issue.

The sins of the past cannot be undone. It cannot be undone by this selective racism based on past behavior.

Racial slurs and hate speech is just that,no matter whose mouth it comes from. It cannot be glossed over or excused,except by those that are opposed to racism when they feel it is directed towards them.

It doesn't work.

No one alive today is responsible for slavery. We are only responsible for our own actions against others.

That holds true whether you have white or black skin

[lazarus]

How in the world can any Christian tell an African American (or anyone, for that matter) to "get over what happened to your ancestors?"....

Ancestors are important. They are part of you. You are the result of their combined lives. Christians are supposedly part of the "family of God."

Christ was crucified over 2000 years ago. I don't hear anyone going around telling Christians to "just get over it and move on..." The actions of Christians are [supposed to be] predicated on the life of Christ and what happened to Him...

Originally Posted By: bonnie

I can either keep alive what happened to my ancestors and use it for reasons why I do what I do today,or I can accept that it happened.

Therefore I assume you are saying that the USA should cease to observe independence day, thanksgiving, colombus day, stop Civil war enactments, remove all references to the fondling fathers, destroy the declaration of independence, and of course stop making references to the revolutionary war.

Of course not. I wonder why you don't like to hear about black people talking about their past experiences. What feelings does it bring into your heart? Anger? Guilt? Frustration? Resentment? Empathy? Compassion?

[lazarus]

And then I better understand the book I read so many years ago, "Black Like Me". It had had a deep effect on me when I read it. But now I could better understand why. It forced me toward empathy. It was more than an intellectual understanding. I allowed myself to open the experience and emotion of racism.

Thanks for sharing that Tom. It's encouraging to me personally.

I had a similar experience recently. I read a couple of books about the Native American experience. I'm still trying to read The Trail of Tears, The Rise and Fall of the Cherokee nation. I grew up watching Westerns with the distorted image of Native Americans that was prevalent. I was shocked at my reaction to books I read. I was moved to tears. I was surprised by how deeply moved I was by just reading about their experience. At lot of their current experience makes sense to me now. Despite the passage of hundreds of years this people are still in mourning the loss of their land, culture, and people.

[bonnie]

Therefore I assume you are saying that the USA should cease to observe independence day, thanksgiving, colombus day, stop Civil war enactments, remove all references to the fondling fathers, destroy the declaration of independence, and of course stop making references to the revolutionary war.

Of course not. I wonder why you don't like to hear about black people talking about their past experiences. What feelings does it bring into your heart? Anger? Guilt? Frustration? Resentment? Empathy? Compassion?

Of course not. When the past is used as a excuse and reason for

the failures is what I object to.

As I have done nothing to any race,I cannot feel guilt for what someone else has done.

I am not sure what disturbs you about the revolutionary war,I can't even recall the topic being addressed here.

I had many black as well as other minority co-workers .

It was really interesting to watch the different attitudes made in success or failure.

Whether it was a black employee,gay or other,those that constantly used that as an excuse,pretty much stayed in the casual part time position.

When bonuses were given every three months,without fail it was because "they were white and poor no one would give them a chance or they were black and being discriminated against because of the color of their skin,or they were gay and treated unfairly".Yet black,poor white, and gays received the same bonuses and advancement if wanted as the middle class white.

Those using their station in life or past grievances still are waiting for the world to treat them fairly.While their black,poor white,gay co-workers are receiving some nice and very needed bonuses and advancing.

I pity those that use the past as an excuse for present failures,black or white or any other group.

[Gregory Matthews]

I found BLACK LIKE ME to be a very meaningful book.

I also found the death of the author to be meaningful. In order to darken his skin color for his travels, he used certain drugs that changed his skin color.

Following the publication of his book, he was hanged in effigy.

He also moved to Mexico for the safety of he and his family.

John Howard Griffin paid a price.

It is of interest that he smuggled Jews to safety during WW II.

He died in 1980

[joeb]

Your are right. African Americans still have a lot of pain. The trauma has passed from generation to generation. I'm glad you can see that.

I'm not sure I buy into this. And it's from personal experience that I don't buy into it. I'm sure you'll claim I'm racist and uncaring, unsympathetic, and whatever else you can think of to accuse me of, but that's fine. Your accusations will not equal the truth about me.

The place where my ancestors lived was a cross-roads of the world of sorts. They were conquered and mistreated on a regular basis for more than a 1000 years by whoever was the strongest, most militaristic civilization that came through the area of the world. According to your "theory"(I'm putting it in quotes not to show scorn or anything like that, just saying it's a theory of yours even if you didn't call it one.) I should have hard feelings, feelings of inferiority, etc... passed down to me from my parents, grandparents, etc, as I'm 100%, bloodwise, of my ethnic type because of that history. The fact is I know of no-one of my ethnic background who feels that way. We are in fact a very independent-minded, self-motivated, people who are proud of our heritage and don't spend time thinking about how we've been mistreated by different races.

I was abused by my family a lot, but I don't tell the stories about it to say, oh, poor pitiful me, but so that other people who've been abused and are struggling with the results can gather strength and hope by knowing they aren't alone, and that it's possible to overcome what's happened to them and that they can have a good life.

My thoughts about this subject are that until blacks get away from the victimization syndrome they will never truly get over the pain of the abuse. It's like that for anyone who has ever been abused whether it's sexually, physically, psychologically, or whatever. When we stop thinking of ourselves as victims we overcome our pasts, and not until then. I know. I've been there and done that. It's a law of life that is well-known.

I've been hated by my brothers all my life, and my parents never thought of me as equal to my brothers but as something worth less than the rest of the human race. As far as my brothers are concerned I'm a piece of trash and am everything that's wrong with the world. The last time I talked to my one brother he picked a fight on the day of our mother's funeral and then walked off laughing about it. The last time I talked to my other brother he told me he'd never thought of me as worth knowing and he had no desire to ever know who I am. They will abuse me anytime they get a chance, but unless I think of myself as their victim they have no power over me and cannot stop me from succeeding in life. The same goes for anyone else who has been abused in any way, by anyone.

We have a black president. We have a black attorney general. We've just shown that this country has no tolerance for racism in our universal condemnation of Donald Sterling. Sure, there are some racists still around, but there always will be until sin is done away with. So, I say, stop preaching victimization and start preaching independence, reaching for the stars(so to speak), self-motivation, hard work, personal accountability, etc... and you'll see the black race here in the US transform itself into conquerors in life, not victims of what happened to their ancestors, or even the occasional racist that still exists. Nazi's, white power organizations, the KKK, etc... are despised by 99% of the people. They are the societal outcasts. They are the people who are looked down upon.

It doesn't matter to me what a person's race is. It doesn't matter what color their skin is. I don't care if someone is an Arab, a Jew, a black, an Asian, a Mexican, or whatever other "dividing line" you can think of. All that matters is what is what is in their hearts and what their character is like. Nothing else matters. And, I'm far from being alone in this. Most people are like this now. Those who aren't are in the minority, so stop looking for what/how you can place divisions between yourself and those of other races. Look for what unites us. We're all just plain old imperfect human beings.

[lazarus]

Quote:

My thoughts about this subject are that until blacks get away from the victimization syndrome they will never truly get over the pain of the abuse.

Who are these African Americans who have this victimization syndrome? Can you provide examples of who these people are, quotes, a survey? Are you saying all African Americans have this? How do you know and what do they say that makes you think this?

The condemnation was not universal by any means. There was a lot of equivocating by conservatives and at least one person on this board. Trump, Limbaugh, Brian Killmead all expressed sympathy for him.

[bonnie]

I am assuming that this..... least one person on this board. more than likely means me.

There is not one place on this board you can find where I or anyone else has defended this man. The man is a scum bag,deserves whatever gets thrown at him.

Questioning the use of illegal wiretapping may be equivocating by conservatives to you,that was not the intent.

I think you know that as well.

Asking questions regarding selective racism is not equivocating

You can condemn a racism accusation/charge against a white man

but fail to acknowledge very vocal racial slurs by the black race.I don't believe racism in general bothers you,only that directed at blacks.

It does me.You cannot condone racism or ignore it by some and not all and claim you are not racist. You cannot be partially racist. You either are or you are not.

[lazarus]

Quote:

I am assuming that this..... least one person on this board. more than likely means me.

Your posts are evidence enough.

[bonnie]

Quote:

I am assuming that this..... least one person on this board. more than likely means me.

Your posts are evidence enough.

Please show me where I have excused Sterling in anyway.Next time tho please be a little more upfront.

Sterling is amoral man. Has been for a long time. Should have been called to account when he paid a hefty fine for discrimination.

Should this be the new norm in getting rid of those that hold views we don't like? That generally is my major beef with this.

If it is someone you respect the next time will you be so approving illegally tapping of a private conversation in someone's home?

I believe this whole thing was set up. That doesn't lessen his guilt at all,but again,who next will you approve the illegal taping of. This girlfriend of his has said he has made these type of statements many times,no surprise or problem for her.

Her moral character isn't any better than his. It sounds like it may have been in retaliation for the lawsuit by Sterling's wife. Not a big fan of those that yell entrapment,but I do think that is considered a no-no to.You can't be trapped into being a racist,thief, or anything else.Again,who should we do that to in order to obtain the proof we want?

Even with that,strip the man down to his Fruit of the Looms. Long overdue.

The question still remains,who would you approve for illegally having a private conversation taped? Would you only be willing if it involved racism? I don't know about you,but I think that is rather a dangerous road to go down.

Now if that in some way is absolving Sterling in your mind,So be it.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

I thought I made it very clear [i contend] that the closer the generations who were mistreated and abused are to a person, the more likely it is that the pain and anger will affect the following generations.

Perhaps this isn't true for many of you. Maybe you don't care what happened to your parents, grandparents, great grandparents, and 2nd great grandparents. I happen to care. It affects me on a very deep level.

I am not speaking about ancestors of 1000 or even 500 years ago.

Here's another example... I recently found one of my Jewish lines that lived in Czechoslovakia at the turn of the century. I traced about 18 of the families to see if I could find any descendants living there today. First one....ended at Buchenwald. Second one....ended at Buchenwald. Third one....ended at Auschwitz. Fourth one....ended at Buchenwald. Fifth one....ended at Auschwitz. Sixth one....ended at Bergen-Belsen... and on and on it went.

I didn't know any of these individuals personally, but seeing those names (and sometimes photos) and their fates, and knowing that they were my relatives was (to me) heartbreaking. I have many stories on other ancestors that are equally devastating on the way they were treated. (And I also have many ancestors who were quite affluent and in whose achievements I take considerable pride ... I see both ends of the spectrum.)

Some like to say you shouldn't let the past dictate how you react today. Is that really so? Does your DNA not carry any memories? (be careful how you think about that one....it *has* been shown that DNA can transport memories down through generations)

In addition, some (and that includes me) like to quote their parents or grandparents, on various subjects, and live life accordingly. That, in fact, is another way of respecting your ancestors. But it's also demonstrating that what your ancestors said and thought and felt are important to you today.

It's hardly respectful (or honest) to begrudge African Americans (or Hispanics or Asians or anyone else) the same feelings of connection.

I could write reams more.... but is it worth it?

[Naomi]

I had promised myself not to respond to this thread again ... personally I don't care for Catch 22's but after reading your post joeb, I can appreciate your statements on many levels. The victimized mentality is of no benefit to anyone and those that give credibility to it are not helping the people they present themselves to be helping.

Your post makes good realistic, positive sense ... let go and move on.

[lazarus]

Claiming African Americans have a victim mentality is a really obvious way of avoiding intelligent, thoughtful engagement. It is easier to ignore the issue if you pretend that the other person has a problem. Classic tactic.

Here's someone smarter than me on the victim mentality fallacy:

First, it presumes that persons of color are too stupid to already know what it is they're experiencing. Those who bemoan the so-called victim mindset appear to believe that no one would think about racism were it not for the constant presence of liberals and leftists raising the issue. Secondly, the argument supposes that black and brown folks are so weak-willed that if they really understood the obstacles in their way, they would crumble like pie crust. As such, the fact that prominent black conservatives like Shelby Steele or Walter Williams are among the most outspoken proponents of this argument--that discussing racism risks the inculcation of a permanent victim mentality--suggests how little they think of their own racial group.

http://redroom.com/member/tim-wise/blog/racism-and-the-myth-of-a-victim-mentality

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

I must be weird.

I give up... it's discouraging to try and discuss this topic.. :(

[CoAspen]

Pam,

Have been waiting to see how this topic went. You may have a point about past generations and being able to feel a connection to them.

A person that I worked with often had many conversations about race relations. She was a Black American from the West Indies. She was also a former school teacher from some of the 'lessor' school districts of NY. One of the prominent ideas of hers was the lack of family history for African Americans. Their history began as slaves in this country. A study of the history of slave ownership in this country will show that the effort of the owners was to remove all trace of family, history, culture and spirituality of the slaves in order to make them entirely dependent of their owners.

We, you and I, can trace our family history back to the past before coming to the Americas. How would we feel if their was no past for us? Our beginning started as slaves? I wonder if our answered would be so cut and tried, so sure of how we would feel?