Why is it hard?

[Woody]

Am a Swiss n Swedish American and proud of it.

[Naomi]

Pam,

We, you and I, can trace our family history back to the past before coming to the Americas. How would we feel if their was no past for us? Our beginning started as slaves? I wonder if our answered would be so cut and tried, so sure of how we would feel?

There are people of many nationalities who cannot trace their family history back more then a couple of generations. A portion of my family is one ... they were murdered and no trace of remaining family. The four who managed to escape to the US are the only known remains of that blood-line. It is what it is.

Many people arrived here with no place to stay, nothing to eat and no monies; life wasn't a bed of roses ... it was what it was; and is what it is ...

[CoAspen]

While I appreciate your post, I do not see how it connects to the topic. My post was about putting ourselves in the place of those we that this topic of racism is mainly about. You are talking about an entirely different set of circumstances.

[joeb]

While I appreciate your post, I do not see how it connects to the topic. My post was about putting ourselves in the place of those we that this topic of racism is mainly about. You are talking about an entirely different set of circumstances.

How you can make a blanket statement that the experience of Naomi's family has nothing to do with racism is beyond me. Talk about the lack of ability to place yourself in someone else's shoes....

[Naomi]

How you can make a blanket statement that the experience of Naomi's family has nothing to do with racism is beyond me. Talk about the lack of ability to place yourself in someone else's shoes....

Thank you joeb, but a) I am quite accustomed to this type of response to most of my post. And at least we finally established that this thread has always been only about the black race; not racism in general.

[joeb]

I thought I made it very clear [i contend] that the closer the generations who were mistreated and abused are to a person, the more likely it is that the pain and anger will affect the following generations.

Perhaps this isn't true for many of you. Maybe you don't care what happened to your parents, grandparents, great grandparents, and 2nd great grandparents. I happen to care. It affects me on a very deep level.

I have no problem with what you said in your first paragraph at all. Of course there is pain. Of course there is heartache. It's what happens to humans who are abused, no matter how they are abused or who abuses them. However, when we focus on healing, on moving forward with our lives and being the author of our own futures the pain decreases quite rapidly.

Let's take a small look at the Jewish race. They have been abused and discriminated against more than any other race on earth by a huge margin yet I don't see them rioting or trying to force their sense pain on others. They don't ask for special consideration in anything. I've never seen a Jewish man scream, yell, and curse out someone who is waiting on a several lines of people just because he wanted to served first, and when he wasn't accuse the person of racism and threaten a lawsuit. That just doesn't happen. I have however watched black men do just that. I've never seen a Jewish AG of the US refuse to prosecute someone who broke the law just because they were Jewish. We have a AG right now who does that if the offender is black.

That's the difference between how two races are dealing with discrimination and abuse. One is saying we've been victims so now we shouldn't be held accountable. We need special treatment because we've been discriminated against, because we've been abused. The other is not. What do anti-Semites say about Jews? That they control the world. That they have too much money. How can that race who has been so discriminated against and abused so badly have so much success that those who hate them without cause accuse them of these things? It's because they focus on where they want to go, not where they've been. There's no other answer for their success in so many fields of endeavor. No one succeeds by looking backwards.

Anyone who's been abused as a child knows what I'm saying is true. Anyone who's been hated by their own family knows this is true. We cannot rise above our past as long as we think we deserve special treatment because of what has happened to us. I speak from painful experience. My old man force me to mess my pants and then go in front of the kids I went to school with. He whipped me and threw me out of the house for the night because I didn't want to play a board game and defeated his logic and way of thinking as a 2nd grader. My older brother molested me. He bullied me unmercifully with my parent's consent and approval. My old man would sit and watch it and laugh until I fought back. Then he'd punish me for not just taking the abuse.

I know what pain is. I've been there and done that. I never got anywhere in life until I started looking forward in life rather than backwards. I couldn't be happy until I started looking forward, and let the pain go and moved on.

This isn't not caring about what happened to anyone. It's about what works to overcome all that pain. It's what works to overcome that painful past. I'm sorry you think it's cold blooded because it isn't. It's about caring enough to say what works even though many people will misinterpret what is said, some by just not understanding. Others are willfully wanting to maintain a status quo because they profit from the status quo somehow. (Please understand that I'm not accusing you of anything. It's just that there are only two options. People fit in either one or the other of the two classes.)

[joeb]

Claiming African Americans have a victim mentality is a really obvious way of avoiding intelligent, thoughtful engagement. It is easier to ignore the issue if you pretend that the other person has a problem. Classic tactic.

Here's someone smarter than me on the victim mentality fallacy:

First, it presumes that persons of color are too stupid to already know what it is they're experiencing. Those who bemoan the so-called victim mindset appear to believe that no one would think about racism were it not for the constant presence of liberals and leftists raising the issue. Secondly, the argument supposes that black and brown folks are so weak-willed that if they really understood the obstacles in their way, they would crumble like pie crust. As such, the fact that prominent black conservatives like Shelby Steele or Walter Williams are among the most outspoken proponents of this argument--that discussing racism risks the inculcation of a permanent victim mentality--suggests how little they think of their own racial group.

http://redroom.com/member/tim-wise/blog/racism-and-the-myth-of-a-victim-mentality

That's a fallacy if there ever was one.

People can be convinced they are dealing with something no one else has ever experienced when the leaders of their community keep on telling them they must have special treatment to succeed.

If I had accepted the fallacy you're putting forth I would have never looked forward, only backwards.

That black conservatives are telling their own people how to succeed in life is a great thing. That you even suggest that someone says "don't focus on your pain, focus on where you want to go and believe enough in yourself to understand that you don't need special treatment to succeed" is putting down their own race says you've accepted and are preaching the victim mentality.

You talk to every one of those black conservatives and they will tell you that their parents taught them that no matter what happened to them or their parents they needed to focus on where they wanted to go and what they wanted to become, and that they could be whatever they wanted to be because the opportunities were out there for waiting for them to find them.

Sure racism exists. It isn't an excuse to fail though. It's just one more obstacle to overcome. We all have a varying number of obstacles in life.

How would you like to be a "retarded" person? I went to high school with a couple of them. They had a very difficult time understanding things. Freddy grew up to own his own business doing what he loved to do. Jim grew up to be a contributing member of society too. He's worked for other people his entire life, but so have a lot of people without his disability. He's had a pretty good life. He owns his own home and has been happily married for more than 30 years.

Both Jim and Freddy could have given up and lived off the government but they didn't. Their parents taught them to be self-reliant and work at things until they succeeded at them. It must be very painful to know that you'll never have the same mental abilities everyone around you has, that you have to work 3 or 4 times as hard as someone else just to do the same thing. Yet by looking forward these two men overcame both their pain and their disability. I'm proud to call both of them friends.

[bonnie]

Thank you joeb, but a) I am quite accustomed to this type of response to most of my post. And at least we finally established that this thread has always been only about the black race; not racism in general.

Thousands of people go thru life never knowing anything at all about their ancestory,who their parents were,were they unwanted,or even what nationality they are. That does not define who they are.

My mother ended up in a orphanage at age five in St.Paul,Mn. Many very small children ended up on the orphan trains from there trying to find them homes. They would never find any family.How terrifying for children that were little more than toddlers.

Thousands of Jewish children that were smuggled out of Germany have grown up without a clue as to their family.

For some reason it sounds like only the black race suffered this fate and finds it a reason for racism now. Of course it is not called racism.

I know of several families that have adopted children from India and China. It is very common that these children were rescued from a garbage dump.Not a chance they will ever know their family.Of course they are curious but it is not the most important detail in their lives.

At a time when you would have expected the black race to riot,loot and kill it would have been following the civil war and following years.

What a cruel hoax for them to find out that despite the promise of freedom,in some ways they were almost worse of if that would be possible.

Somehow they maintained their families and their self respect. For a long time the black family could put many white families to shame.They did not have food stamps,subsidized housing,free medical and access to education. They dealt with far more than most of us here will ever have to deal with,black or white.

They weren't killing each other or anyone else for that matter.

[CoAspen]

Pam,

Have been waiting to see how this topic went. You may have a point about past generations and being able to feel a connection to them.

A person that I worked with often had many conversations about race relations. She was a Black American from the West Indies. She was also a former school teacher from some of the 'lessor' school districts of NY. One of the prominent ideas of hers was the lack of family history for African Americans. Their history began as slaves in this country. A study of the history of slave ownership in this country will show that the effort of the owners was to remove all trace of family, history, culture and spirituality of the slaves in order to make them entirely dependent of their owners.

We, you and I, can trace our family history back to the past before coming to the Americas. How would we feel if their was no past for us? Our beginning started as slaves? I wonder if our answered would be so cut and tried, so sure of how we would feel?

Reposting...everyone please read again without the _________(fill in the blank) and look at the area of the post highlighted. It has to do with a specific group and a premise from a person in that group. Some of the comments being posted, seem to me, an example of the difficulty of talking about the subject....way to much defensiveness...perhaps?

We are uncomfortable talking about this subject because we do not understand it, racism, prejudice, when it comes to skin color, unless we have been in those shoes, a history of slave ancestors. We have no personal connection to a condition like that.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

It's what works to overcome that painful past. I'm sorry you think it's cold blooded because it isn't.

I never wrote that, and I'd appreciate it if you'd refrain from attributing things to me that I never wrote.

By the way, the way I understood this thread, is that it concerned racial issues, particularly those of the African American, and reasons why it is difficult to come to understanding why there are still issues..

**comment in general, not referring to any particular C/A poster**

It seems that it's deteriorated to a "I was abused, but I'm doing fine.." and "my family was abused a long time ago but I'm doing fine..." leading to a mindset toward the African American population of "I'm just fine, so you should be too...and if you aren't, then it's your own fault because you obviously want to wallow in self pity and have everything handed to you." To my way of thinking (obviously not a popular way), this totally ignores the whole purpose of the thread...and serves no useful purpose, other than to avoid making yourself vulnerable empathetically trying to understand the viewpoints of others....

which is not an admirable thing.

[bonnie]

{quote]One of the prominent ideas of hers was the lack of family history for African Americans. Their history began as slaves in this country. A study of the history of slave ownership in this country will show that the effort of the owners was to remove all trace of family, history, culture and spirituality of the slaves in order to make them entirely dependent of their owners.{/quote]

You would change this HOW? You cannot undo history.That can't be given back.

So far no one has explained what is so unique about the black race. The Jewish race has suffered persecution far longer and every attempt was made to exterminate them.They have been hated and discriminated against,yet they move on and thrive as a race.

[CoAspen]

Quote:

You would change this HOW?

The focus is on the wrong end!

It is not about changing history, it is how do we deal with racism in the present. In order do deal(understand) we need to place ourselves in an others shoes at that point in time. We can't go back and do that, but we can try, in our minds, to put ourself in that place and at least consider the feelings. I doubt that we appreciate the meanings of slavery in all its context, but at least stop saying...well....I don' see how...I don't think... and all the other trite phrases we use.

The best way to learn and understand is to listen! Accept that a black person still has some feelings carried down through the generations, don't dismiss them!

[CoAspen]

[lazarus]

I think Rudy and CoAspen have hit on why this is hard. Folks are either unwilling or unable to...

Quote:

.....making yourself vulnerable empathetically trying to understand the viewpoints of others....

.....try, in our minds, to put ourself in that place and at least consider the feelings....

This is not just as regards to African-Americans but this can apply to the experience of Native Americans, Mexicans, European-Americans, whoever.

[lazarus]

How would you like to be a "retarded" person? I went to high school with a couple of them. They had a very difficult time understanding things. Freddy grew up to own his own business doing what he loved to do. Jim grew up to be a contributing member of society too. He's worked for other people his entire life, but so have a lot of people without his disability. He's had a pretty good life. He owns his own home and has been happily married for more than 30 years.

Both Jim and Freddy could have given up and lived off the government but they didn't. Their parents taught them to be self-reliant and work at things until they succeeded at them. It must be very painful to know that you'll never have the same mental abilities everyone around you has, that you have to work 3 or 4 times as hard as someone else just to do the same thing. Yet by looking forward these two men overcame both their pain and their disability. I'm proud to call both of them friends.

What does this story have to do with the topic? Many African-Americans have jobs, own a home, etc. I don't get it. The majority of people who "live off" of the government are white!

[bonnie]

The focus is on the wrong end!

It is not about changing history, it is how do we deal with racism in the present. In order do deal(understand) we need to place ourselves in an others shoes at that point in time. We can't go back and do that, but we can try, in our minds, to put ourself in that place and at least consider the feelings. I doubt that we appreciate the meanings of slavery in all its context, but at least stop saying...well....I don' see how...I don't think... and all the other trite phrases we use.

The best way to learn and understand is to listen! Accept that a black person still has some feelings carried down through the generations, don't dismiss them!

None of us can place ourselves in the shoes of those that were slaves.Not even the black race. They can as you say carry the natural and understandable rage from generation to generation,making sure it stays alive and well. I was shocked when I read of the persecution/murders/horrors of what happened to my mother's family in Scotland. Can I put myself back there and understand what it was like for those that watched their families raped, tortured,and then watch as someone slit their throat when they were thru with them? Nope. Nor can I understand what it was like when they were uprooted from their homeland,separated from family they would never see again.What should I do with that,carry it around from generation to generation,using it as a reason for my hatred and bigotry presently?

What makes the Ben Carson's of the world? Not necessarily that level of success but just the common every day family that has struggles,poverty and all the rest and move beyond that. I just can't imagine they are bemoaning their lack of family history and using that to keep alive the past in a negative way.

We can't go back and undo regardless of how many times it is discussed,those currently can not atone or accept responsibility for generations past. Unless we can somehow do that or now accept black racism towards whites to level the playing field nothing will ever get better.

Being clubbed with the war club of racism at every turn

resentment builds every time. The american flag is even considered racist now. The word is used and abused at every opportunity to keep the resentments alive and well.

[Naomi]

While I appreciate your post, I do not see how it connects to the topic. My post was about putting ourselves in the place of those we that this topic of racism is mainly about. You are talking about an entirely different set of circumstances.

Originally Posted By: lazarus

Why is it hard to talk about race issues? Would like to hear your thoughts.

[CoAspen]

Quote:

The word is used and abused at every opportunity to keep the resentments alive and well.

You missed the point of my comment. Listening and understanding helps to erase 'resentments'.

Quote:

Being clubbed with the war club of racism at every turn

resentment builds every time.

Really?? Really?? I am detecting quite a bit of 'resentment' on your part!

Quote:

The best way to learn and understand is to listen!

That is part of every relationship counseling.

[bonnie]

You missed the point of my comment. Listening and understanding helps to erase 'resentments'.

[fccool]

Quote:

No I didn't miss your point.That statement should go both ways and it is obviously a one way street

You do miss the point, and it's precisely because you miss it you keep on going about "two way street", when it's never been a two way street until very recently in any social context.

I'll give you a blatant example of that:

There is a very distinct reason why crack cocaine was punished much more severely than pure cocaine, and that reason has nothing to do with it being more addictive or harmful, as recent science shown it is not. When "drug war" (war on poor black people) went into effect, you'd be locked up for 5 years for possession of 22 grams of crack. What it would take for someone with pure cocaine? ... a pound. If you don't understand the significance of that, you don't understand why blacks are disproportionally represented in US prison systems... you won't understand the culture of poverty, violence and hip-hop culture of "look at me".

... and the way to resolve all of this is not the "tough love" you are peddling. The way to resolve this is understanding... letting people vent. Telling them that you understand, and setting them on the way to better life.

Again, what you are doing does not help anyone. It just angers people who you admittedly won't understand and place yourself in their shoes, and it will empower the stereotypes of "welfare kings and queens who are lazy and don't hard work to be successful".

Please, for the love of everything good... stop.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

Please, for the love of everything good... stop.

Please forgive me for interrupting here, especially as I have not been following all the salient points up to now. I do agree with your position as provided above.

However, I cannot agree with the point you made below;

Quote:

The way to resolve this is understanding... letting people vent

Jesus has been giving that perfect understanding with the human race and letting people vent for 6,000 years, and who knows how many millennium for the master of deceit. Has it worked? You be the judge.

"Why can’t you understand what I am saying? It’s because you can’t even hear me! For you are the children of your father the devil, and you love to do the evil things he does. He was a murderer from the beginning. He has always hated the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, it is consistent with his character; for he is a liar and the father of lies. So when I tell the truth, you just naturally don’t believe me!"John 8:43-45 NLT

That is cutting Truth, not meant for all people, but essential to be weighed in and considered when dealing with individuals who "vent" at the expense of anyone in their way.

God cares! Jesus saves!

[fccool]

Quote:

"Why can’t you understand what I am saying? It’s because you can’t even hear me! For you are the children of your father the devil, and you love to do the evil things he does. He was a murderer from the beginning. He has always hated the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he lies, it is consistent with his character; for he is a liar and the father of lies. So when I tell the truth, you just naturally don’t believe me!"John 8:43-45 NLT

That is cutting Truth, not meant for all people, but essential to be weighed in and considered when dealing with individuals who "vent" at the expense of anyone in their way.

Who is Jesus spoke this to? Please read and understand the story prior to quoting things like these.

He is talking to Scribes and Pharisees... in modern context, that would be the pastors and theologians... and people who quote verses out of context to improperly justify the points they are trying to make.

[bonnie]

You do miss the point, and it's precisely because you miss it you keep on going about "two way street", when it's never been a two way street until very recently in any social context.

[bonnie]

This is something that should be drilled home to all ,black white or anyone else.

BILL HAS GONE AND DONE IT AGAIN...

They're standing on the corner and they can't speak English.

I can't even talk the way these people talk:

Why you ain't,

Where you is,

What he drive,

Where he stay,

Where he work,

Who you be...

And I blamed the kid until I heard the mother talk.

And then I heard the father talk.

Everybody knows it's important to speak English except these knuckleheads. You can't be a doctor with that kind of [censored] coming out of your mouth.

In fact you will never get any kind of job making a decent living.

People marched and were hit in the face with rocks to get an Education, and now we've got these knuckleheads walking around.

The lower economic people are not holding up their end in this deal.

These people are not parenting. They are buying things for kids.

$500 sneakers for what?

And they won't spend $200 for Hooked on Phonics.

I am talking about these people who cry when their son is standing there in an orange suit.

Where were you when he was 2?

Where were you when he was 12?

Where were you when he was 18 and how come you didn't know that he had a pistol?

And where is the father? Or who is his father?

People putting their clothes on backward:

Isn't that a sign of something gone wrong?

People with their hats on backward, pants down around the crack, isn't that a sign of something?

Isn't it a sign of something when she has her dress all the way up and got all type of needles [piercing] going through her body?

What part of Africa did this come from??

We are not Africans. Those people are not Africans; they don't know a thing about Africa .....

I say this all of the time. It would be like white people saying they are European-American. That is totally stupid.

I was born here, and so were my parents and grand parents and, very likely my great grandparents. I don't have any connection to Africa, no more than white Americans have to Germany , Scotland , England , Ireland , or the Netherlands . The same applies to 99 percent of all the black Americans as regards to Africa . So stop, already! ! !

With names like Shaniqua, Taliqua and Mohammed and all of that [censored] ......... And all of them are in jail.

Brown or black versus the Board of Education is no longer the white person's problem.

We have got to take the neighborhood back.

People used to be ashamed. Today a woman has eight children with eight different 'husbands' -- or men or whatever you call them now.

We have millionaire football players who cannot read.

We have million-dollar basketball players who can't write two paragraphs. We, as black folks have to do a better job.

Someone working at Wal-Mart with seven kids, you are hurting us.

We have to start holding each other to a higher standard..

We cannot blame the white people any longer.'

~Dr.. William Henry 'Bill' Cosby, Jr., Ed..D.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

#696746~Dr.. William Henry 'Bill' Cosby, Jr., Ed..D.

And the reason that won't be accepted by all is a result of rejection of the rules that make the universe (cosmos) run perfectly.

"For there is one body and one Spirit, just as you have been called to one glorious hope for the future. There is one Lord, one faith, one baptism, and one God and Father, who is over all and in all and living through all."

It is important to remember this is addressed to all who accept, ungrudgingly, the Creator's shepherding.

Jesus/God saves!