The God of Islam?

[Johann]

Originally Posted By: Sojourner

Is there enough revelation in the koran of who Jesus really is, to bring muslims to Christ?

I'm aware there have been many muslims who have received Jesus as Lord and Savior after having come in contact with Christian missionaries, and also some even having received dreams that motivated them, but while the Quran only recognizes Him as a great prophet, He's looked on as a created being and not the everlasting, only begotten Son of God, until after being born again.

God cares! Jesus saves!

While I was a missionary in West Africa I did baptize some young people who claimed they were Muslims, but this was in an area where those people were not really based in Islam.

We are still not winning a significant number of real Muslims. Do we lack the knowledge? The Holy Spirit?

[Johann]

fasting is only done during daylight hours for Ramadan...that's only 13 hrs and 22 minutes today...

Muslims in my country are having a real problem because in the middle of summer during Ramadan they may have less than an hour between sunset and sunrise.

[Johann]

There is another issue here that has not been mentioned. This issues: Does the religion of Islam today represent the religion of the Quran and that of Mohammed?

The most successful Christian groups that are working to convert Islamics are those who allege that Christian principles are found in the Quran and they present those basic Christian principles based upon the Quran.

AT the 2010 General Conference a native Arabic speaker had a both in which he present a ministry which attempted to convert Islamics based upon the teachings of the Quran. He was the conversion process as being a series of steps. Little by little he led people to accept some very basic Christian principles, all based upon the Quran. Once he had led them to a better understanding of Christ, he was able to lead them to further understandings outside of the Quran and on to Adventism.

All of this began with the basic Christian teaching that was centered on the God of Abraham.

The God of Abraham is central to Islam. Once you say that Islam does not worship the God of Abraham, you have cut off all communication and any opportunity to bring them to a better understanding.

Excellent - and yet: Some of our own scholars who are "experts" in Islam are still wondering if this method will bring any permanent results among real Muslims. With God nothing is impossible. Is the Pope right that Muslims are closer to the Roman Catholic religion and that in the future they will be able to unite or at least accept each other?

[Felix Florimon]

Again, response to post 701111. In order to sound “politically correct” to those who just wish to understand how the Devil is waging war against God according to the Bible and EGW’s writings; the number of the post # 701111 (70-11-11: 7+0+1+1+1+1 = 9 + 1+1 = 11 and my reply to it is just a coincidence).

You have simply failed to understand Islam and to accurately represent it.

[Gregory Matthews]

Quote:

Some of our own scholars who are "experts" in Islam are still wondering if this method will bring any permanent results among real Muslims.

True.

[Johann]

The important question remains: Will we be able to bring the message of Jesus Christ to the Muslim world in the near future. None of our methods have yet brought permanent results.

How many Seventh-day Adventist do we have in Turkey today among the Muslims?

[Felix Florimon]

Quote:

Some of our own scholars who are "experts" in Islam are still wondering if this method will bring any permanent results among real Muslims.

True.

[Gail]

I traced the thread back a few pages and have not seen the mention of God's use of dreams, although I did see a bit about the role of the Holy Spirit in evangelising this people.

I, like everyone else, recognise the vastness of the work. I don't see how it will be done without a special and powerful manifestation of the Holy Spirit. I am envisioning the fulfilment of the Rev 18 angel who lightens the world with his glory.

Saul of Tarsus was turned right around with one vision of Jesus. The people of Islam have faith in dreams. They also seem to be interested in prophecy.

When I read people's accounts of how big the work is too often I miss their admission of how big God is and if the people will be lightened at all it will be due to God's doing. This part of the world would greatly benefit from a Pentecostal experience. That is what happened when the disciples were faced with taking the Gospel to the world. God worked a miracle far larger and more powerful than they expected.

I mean, we have seen the wall broken down between East and West in the Cold War. That happened also rather suddenly. I still believe that God Himself will need to do something in the Middle East. In a case like this there is no reason to believe that we must do it all.

[Johann]

I traced the thread back a few pages and have not seen the mention of God's use of dreams, although I did see a bit about the role of the Holy Spirit in evangelising this people.

I, like everyone else, recognise the vastness of the work. I don't see how it will be done without a special and powerful manifestation of the Holy Spirit. I am envisioning the fulfilment of the Rev 18 angel who lightens the world with his glory.

Saul of Tarsus was turned right around with one vision of Jesus. The people of Islam have faith in dreams. They also seem to be interested in prophecy.

When I read people's accounts of how big the work is too often I miss their admission of how big God is and if the people will be lightened at all it will be due to God's doing. This part of the world would greatly benefit from a Pentecostal experience. That is what happened when the disciples were faced with taking the Gospel to the world. God worked a miracle far larger and more powerful than they expected.

I mean, we have seen the wall broken down between East and West in the Cold War. That happened also rather suddenly. I still believe that God Himself will need to do something in the Middle East. In a case like this there is no reason to believe that we must do it all.

[Felix Florimon]

I, like everyone else, recognise the vastness of the work. I don't see how it will be done without a special and powerful manifestation of the Holy Spirit. I am envisioning the fulfilment of the Rev 18 angel who lightens the world with his glory...

I completely agree.

FF

[Samie]

...

I mean, we have seen the wall broken down between East and West in the Cold War. That happened also rather suddenly. I still believe that God Himself will need to do something in the Middle East. In a case like this there is no reason to believe that we must do it all.

To put in my one-centavo-worth of salt, why was the apostle to the Gentiles effective in bringing the gospel to the UNBELIEVERS? I surmise it was because he treated them in equal-footing with the BELIEVERS like himself. Writing to the Romans he said "We were reconciled to God by the death of His Son" (Rom 5:10). By "We", he identified himself with the Romans. In talking with the Athenians at the Areopagus (Mars' hill), he told those UNBELIEVERS: "We are the offspring of God" (Acts 17:29).

Those words he addressed to them while they were yet UNBELIEVERS.

With the brand of gospel most preachers bring, the wall separating Christians from non-Christians is THOROUGHLY maintained. UNLESS, these preachers adopt the gospel Paul preached.

Gail is right: God Himself will do something in the Middle East.

[LifeHiscost]

Quote:

We are still not winning a significant number of real Muslims. Do we lack the knowledge? The Holy Spirit?

In asking if there is a lack of the Holy Spirit, in the lands where I know the younger generation from the U.S. is involved, I do not see a lack of the Holy Spirit. And where the Word is given, the Holy Spirit is in attendance.

"So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it."Isaiah 55:11 KJV

We, as disciples are not asked to convict. That is the responsibility of the Holy Spirit, and as we are faithful in our sowing, at the appropriate time there will be a harvest.

"Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of Christ had come. Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God."2 Thess 2:2-4 NKJV

I am seeing those seeds above being broadcast in many places as I type these words.

God cares! Jesus saves!

[Sojourner]

I came across this the other day which I think is relevant here,

"The Quran was first revealed to the prophet Muhummad by the angel Gabriel in 632AD".

"But though we, or an angel from heaven, peach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. Galatians 1:8 49AD And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light 2 Cor, 11:14.

[rudywoofs (Pam)]

I came across this the other day which I think is relevant here,

"The Quran was first revealed to the prophet Muhummad by the angel Gabriel in 632AD".

Muhammad must've been a speed writer, as he *died* in 632AD.

[Gregory Matthews]

Quote:

Muhammad must've been a speed writer, as he *died* in 632AD.

Actually Muhammad was not a speed writer and there is no evidence that he could write at all. In any case, he did NOT write the Quran.

The Quran began to be collected in written form following the death of Muhammad. Prior to his death, his teachings only existed in oral form. In the 20 years following his death, the oral traditions of his teachings were collected and put into written form. Several people were deeply involved on this. One was one of his widows.

[Gregory Matthews]

Quote:

The Quran was first revealed to the prophet Muhummad by the angel Gabriel in 632AD.

As has been stated, he died in 632 CE.

The angel Gabriel is alleged to have come to him in 610 CE.

[hch]

I came across this the other day which I think is relevant here,

"The Quran was first revealed to the prophet Muhummad by the angel Gabriel in 632AD".

"But though we, or an angel from heaven, peach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. Galatians 1:8 49AD And no wonder, for Satan himself masquerades as an angel of light 2 Cor, 11:14.

[8thdaypriest]

Isn't everyone asking basically, whether Muslims can be saved in the Kingdom of God.

Islam vehemently teaches that Jesus Christ is NOT to be worshiped. He was only a prophet or spokesman for Allah.

His death was NOT substitutionary. He was NOT divine - NOT God. Not literally God's "begotten Son".

Yet Christ said, "No man cometh to the Father, but by me."

Muslims deny that those are Christ's words.

I believe that those who were taught nothing but Islam, who knew nothing of the truth of Christ,

will be resurrected after the 1000 years as part of "the rest of the dead".

They will then be taught and governed by the priesthood of the redeemed (first resurrection).

They will then choose whether they will have Christ as their Savior and LORD and King.

God is JUST. He will not reject any person without giving that person enough INFORMATION upon which to base a choice - and TIME to process the information and then choose.

Blessings

Rachel Cory

Prophecy Viewpoint

[Samie]

Isn't everyone asking basically, whether Muslims can be saved in the Kingdom of God.

Islam vehemently teaches that Jesus Christ is NOT to be worshiped. He was only a prophet or spokesman for Allah.

His death was NOT substitutionary. He was NOT divine - NOT God. Not literally God's "begotten Son".

Yet Christ said, "No man cometh to the Father, but by me."

Muslims deny that those are Christ's words.

I believe that those who were taught nothing but Islam, who knew nothing of the truth of Christ,

will be resurrected after the 1000 years as part of "the rest of the dead".

They will then be taught and governed by the priesthood of the redeemed (first resurrection).

They will then choose whether they will have Christ as their Savior and LORD and King.

God is JUST. He will not reject any person without giving that person enough INFORMATION upon which to base a choice - and TIME to process the information and then choose.

Blessings

Rachel Cory

Prophecy Viewpoint

[Gustave]

Thank you for this, Gregory! Mohammed's understanding was imperfect; he saw through a glass darkly as we all do. And he was better at withstanding idolatry than the mainstream Christian church at the time.

Yes Gail

Mohammed believed that Jesus was a creature & as such had He screwed up, God would have annihilated Him....

...This is in keeping with Ellen White's view.

...Which she adopted from James White & the other Arian / Semi Arian leadership.

A Methodist would NEVER make such affirmations as their creed it explicit...

...Ellen renounced the Methodist creed to please her husband.

The view is contained in the article you partially quoted from.

The Koran teaches that Christ was / is a 'creature' and had he screwed up...

...The real God would have annihilated Christ.

...This is an alien concept according to the Bible.

...But is Standard teaching in Islam, & of course Arianism.

http://docs.adventistarchives.org/docs/RH/RH19091028-V86-43__B.pdf#view=fit

Some nuggets from that article:

"both Judaism and Christianity have failed to do the work to which God called them. Mohammedanism arose in A. D. 622. The Papacy was operating full force, and none understood better than the Prophet and his followers the apostasy that had taken place in the Christian church. And because of that apostasy, he claimed divine right and calling to set up a new and purer faith, which should take the place, and do the work, that the so-called Christian church had failed to take and to do".

"There is something in the nature of a challenge in the word itself to the dominant Christian church of the period when Mohammedanism arose. For that church was sunk in the mazes of the worship of saints and images when Mohammed came asserting that everlasting truth: "There is but one God".

"From its most glorious seats Christianity was forever expelled; from Palestine, the scene of its most sacred recollections; from Asia Minor, that of its first churches; from Egypt, whence issued the great doctrine of Trinitarian

orthodoxy; from Carthage, who imposed her belief on Europe".

[8thdaypriest]

Don't know if someone has already recommended this book. Haven't read every single post.

"The Politically Incorrect Guide to ISLAM and The Crusades"

by Robert Spencer

Very informative. Changed my attitude concerning the Crusades.

[JoeMo]

Another great book is "The Destiny of Islam in the End Times" by Faisal Malick. Changed my whole attitude towards Islam, given the opportunity to look at them through Jesus' eyes.

Another eye-opening resource was a DVD called "More Than Dreams" about Muslims who converted to sold-out Christianity based on dreams and visions of Jesus.

[8thdaypriest]

A friend loaned me a video which showed old historical photos of Nazis and Muslims collaborating on the most efficient way to exterminate Jews. Chilling. Can't remember the name of the documentary.

[JoeMo]

I saw a similar documentary; but it was on History Channel or Discovery Channel. It was chilling.

[8thdaypriest]

It sounds like a few here are unfamiliar with many things that Mohammed taught.

1. He taught Jihad - that the world was to be converted by force.

2. He taught that Christians and Jews were to be treated as second class persons, paying 1/3 of all income to the Islamic state under Sharia law. These provisions were in his earlier teachings. Later he ordered the killing of ALL JEWS.

3. The penalty for conversion from Islam to Christianity or Judaism is DEATH.

4. Mohammed had 9 wives and numerous concubines, including more than one "child bride". He wrote that only 4 wives were allowed his followers, but exempted himself. Very young girls may legally be "married" under Sharia Law.

5. The "70 perpetual virgins" promised to those who die in Jihad were not all that was included. Beautiful young men were also included in this "paradise". Guess the prophet thought that in paradise, sex with males would be ok for holy martyrs.

6. The Koran forbids all musical instruments.

7. The Koran forbids ANY depiction of the human form or body, or ANY part of it. It also forbids depiction of animals. The advances in medicine were made because of a non-Muslim who compiled drawings of internal organs.

8. Any woman must be accompanied by a male relative when she leaves her home.

9. A woman must cover everything but her hands and her feet, when she leaves her dwelling.

Laws here differ, but cover is mandatory.

9. A woman's testimony is worth half that of a man.

10. To convict a man of rape requires 4 male witnesses, who SAW the act. IF the woman who was raped reports the crime, she will probably be convicted of unlawful sex herself - and executed. If she becomes pregnant, she will be allowed to stay with the child until it is weaned. THEN she will be executed, according to Sharia Law.

11. It is permissible to LIE, if doing so advances the cause of Islam.

12. It is permissible to enslave non-Muslims captured in war. Most of the African slave traders were Muslim.

Of course any of these rules can be set aside temporarily IF doing so advances the cause of Islam.

The only "good" that has come about because of ISIS in Irac, is that the world is seeing Islam for what it truly IS.

Rachel Cory

Prophecy Viewpoint