Sexual immorality abounds

[Amelia]

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[Robert]

Here's what Jack says:

The reasons why I believe that Paul had the believer in mind (and I gave the reasons before) are at least four reasons because:

1. Chapters 5, 6, 7, and 8 of Romans are dealing with the Christian, not with the pre-converted man.

2. Beginning in verse 14, Paul moves from the past tense, which he has been using in verses 7 to 13, to the present continuous tense, which means he is not referring to a past experience but to a present issue.

3. In Romans 7:22 he makes this statement:

For in my inner being I delight in God’s law.

There are two things I would like to say about this verse 22.

1. First, his phrase “inward man” or “inner being” is a phrase Paul will use only to the believer. For example, let me give you a couple of incidents. Turn to 2 Corinthians 4:16 and you will find that Paul is talking here about the believer when he uses that phrase “inward man” or the “inner man” or the “inner mind”:

Therefore we [believers] do not lose heart. Though outwardly [i.e., the flesh, the body] we are wasting away, yet inwardly we are being renewed day by day.

You see, he’s talking about the converted mind. If you turn to Ephesians 3:16, you have the same idea there. Paul will never use that phrase for the unbeliever, he will use it only for the believer. Ephesians 3:16:

I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you [i.e., the Christians of Ephesus] with power through his Spirit in your inner being....

2. Secondly, if you look at Ephesians 2:3, Paul will tell us there that the mind and the flesh of the unbeliever are in harmony with sin:

...gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts....

That is the pre-converted man. But when it comes to the believer, his mind has been turned towards God. He has a renewed mind. And that is what the Greek word “repentance” means: a change of mind. But his flesh is unchangeable. That is what Jesus tried to convince Nicodemus in John 3:6 where He said:

Flesh gives birth to flesh....

You cannot change the flesh. The only time the flesh will change is at the second coming of Christ. So Paul here is obviously referring to the believer.

4. I want to give you one more argument. There are statements that Paul makes in his epistles (he wrote almost half of the New Testament) where he does touch on his preconverted experience. Galatians 1:14 is an example:

I was advancing in Judaism beyond many Jews of my own age and was extremely zealous for the traditions of my fathers.

Or another good example is Philippians 3:6. Wherever he talks about his preconverted experience as a Pharisee, he mentions nothing about a struggle. For example, Philippians 3:6 he says:

...As for legalistic righteousness, [i was] faultless.

There’s no mention of a struggle. Only as a Christian does he talk about the struggle. He does it in Romans 8:3, he does it in Galatians 5:17 — the struggle between flesh and Spirit. Galatians 5:17:

For the sinful nature desires what is contrary to the Spirit, and the Spirit what is contrary to the sinful nature. They are in conflict with each other, so that you do not do what you want.

[Robert]

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bevin said:

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For it is better to marry than to be aflame

with passion.

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See - when you correctly quote Paul, the word "lust" is not there.

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• 1 Thess 4:5 For this is the will of God, your sanctification; that is, that you abstain from sexual immorality; 4 that each of you know how to possess his own vessel in sanctification and honor, 5 not in lustful passion, like the Gentiles who do not know God....

  Rom 6:12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal bodies, to make you obey their passions.

  Gal 5:24 And those who belong to Christ Jesus have crucified the flesh with its passions and desires.

  Eph 2:3 Among these we all once lived in the passions of our flesh, following the desires of body and mind, and so we were by nature children of wrath, like the rest of mankind.

  2 Tim 2:22 So shun youthful passions and aim at righteousness

  Titus 2:11 For the grace of God has appeared for the salvation of all men, 12 training us to renounce irreligion and worldly passions, and to live sober, upright, and godly lives in this world

  Titus 3:3 For we ourselves were once foolish, disobedient, led astray, slaves to various passions and pleasures

  James 4:1 What causes wars, and what causes fightings among you? Is it not your passions that are at war in your members? 2 You desire and do not have; so you kill. And you covet [lust] and cannot obtain; so you fight and wage war. You do not have, because you do not ask. 3 You ask and do not receive, because you ask wrongly, to spend it on your passions.

  1 Peter 1:14 As obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance

  1 Peter 2:11 Beloved, I beseech you as aliens and exiles to abstain from the passions of the flesh that wage war against your mind.

  1 Peter 4:2 Since therefore Christ suffered in the flesh, arm yourselves with the same thought, for whoever has suffered in the flesh has ceased from sin, 2 so as to live for the rest of the time in the flesh no longer by human passions but by the will of God. 3 Let the time that is past suffice for doing what the Gentiles like to do, living in licentiousness, passions, drunkenness, revels, carousing, and lawless idolatry.

  2 Peter 2:18 For, uttering loud boasts of folly, they entice with licentious passions of the flesh men who have barely escaped from those who live in error. 19 They promise them freedom, but they themselves are slaves of corruption.

  2 Peter 3:3 First of all you must understand this, that scoffers will come in the last days with scoffing, following their own passions

  Jude 16 These are grumblers, malcontents, following their own passions, loud-mouthed boasters, flattering people to gain advantage.

Passions = desires = lust = coveting

[Robert]

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Norman said:

Question, how are the ungodly supposed to see anything different in us if we are living like Romans 7:15-24?

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The context of Romans chapter 7 is not of one living for the flesh [as the unconverted do], but it points to the reality that believers "fall short" of God’s love as revealed in Jesus Christ. It is within these parameters that the mature Apostle Paul calls himself, “wretched”!

Let’s look at this a bit deeper:

You see Paul, as a Pharisee, kept the letter of the law. In that regards he wasn't sinning. But after conversion he saw things in a new light. Let's look at those statements:

Rom 7:9 "Once [refers to the Paul’s past] I (Paul) was alive apart from law; but when the commandment came [i.e., a knowledge of the 10th commandment - see verse 7], sin sprang to life and I died."

As a Pharisee he considered his law-keeping "blameless" (see Phil 3:6). What changed? Look at Paul's statement in verse 9:

"I was alive apart from law."

Was Paul the Pharisee ever "apart" from the law? NO! As a Pharisee he was totally engulfed and surrounded by "the law". Hence, what "apart from the law" means is "apart" from a greater understanding of the law.

Note also he uses the word "alive". In other words, apart from a greater understanding of the requirements of God's law, Paul considered himself to have eternal life based on his performance. So verse 9 is essential saying:

I once thought I had eternal life from my limited understanding of the law; but when I gained a better understanding of the commandment, I recognized I was a sinner and under the law death was required of me.

Now verse 10:

“I found that the very commandment that was intended to bring life (by Paul’s obedience) actually brought death.”

Again, Paul was raised with the idea that life came by strict obedience to God’s law. Hence, he must obey to live, but if he disobeyed he had to die (usually by stoning).

Verse 11:

“For sin (i.e., sin’s deceitfulness), seizing the opportunity afforded by the commandment (i.e., in the absence of a greater understanding of the law), deceived me, and through the commandment put me to death. “

You see Paul the Pharisee limited sin to only outward actions, but when confronted with the spiritual demands of the 10th commandment Paul understood the essence of all sin was self-seeking and therefore in that respect he was falling short!

Ellen White:

• "The Prince of heaven came to this world to live in human nature a perfect life, a life that would be an example for all human beings. He lived a life free from self-seeking, wholly given to the service of others."

  Our earthly life, however long, honored, or useful it may be, is but childhood, frail, imperfect, and undeveloped. Manhood, with its full, perfect, glorious development, will come, when, freed from the taint of sin, we stand among the redeemed throng. Then we shall enjoy a life which measures with the life of God, and through everlasting ages we shall go on increasing in wisdom and knowledge.

That doesn’t negate seeking maturity….Let’s look at Paul’s counsel here:

15 All of us who are mature should take such a view of things. And if on some point you think differently, that too God will make clear to you. 16 Only let us live up to what we have already attained. [Phi 3:15-16]

[Robert]

Let's look at this concept a bit more:

“Sin originated [how?] in self-seeking. Lucifer, the covering cherub, desired to be first in heaven.” [i.e., he wanted to be # 1] [FLB 68]

In explaining love, Ellen states: “…There will be no rivalry, no self-seeking, no desire for the highest place. [Now she gives an example:] You will have that love which seeks not her own, but another's wealth.” [DA 439]

Did you get that? Sin is self-seeking! Then she goes further: Sin is anything outside seeking for the wealth and good of others!

"Christ's life on earth teaches that to obtain the higher education does not mean to gain popularity, to secure worldly advantage [$$$] - to have all the temporal wants abundantly supplied, and to be honored by the titled and wealthy of earth.....His life rebukes all self-seeking. As He went about doing good He made plain the character of God's law and the nature of His service." [CT 34]

[Paula]

Hey Shane,

I just read your last post...

I have to say that I think we as a society (even though we are Christians) really have gone overboard in this whole sex thing. I do not consider myself to be prudish, but I think the problem really is that everything is now "normal". And in this regard I really agree with Robert. I don't know how much men talk about these things (in a christian context, I know non-christians talk). I've asked my husband and he says that he doesn't really feel comfortable talking to guys about sex cause it seems kind of gay to him... But I know he has a cousin who he has given some advice to on a couple occasions, and a couple of very close friends who were fooling around, etc., who confided in him. I know that when I get together with my friends (girls) from church we talk about everything, from raising our kids, to recipes, to marital problems, etc... And I have to say that my heart really aches when I see and hear friends who are going through these things. That one lady I mentioned here seems to have the hardest time. But alot of the other ladys say that their guys want to use porn, and so on. As I said before we've had several affairs between married and married and married and singles in our church. I wonder is this happening in all churches, or is this happening so much in ours because we are such a young church. Is this the big "sin" facing the SDA married christians of my age group? Or is this the norm among all christians. I am not here saying that I am a saintly puritan. I don't agree with making everything taboo, and acting like sex is wrong. I have no problem with a couple spicing things up. But if what is happening in our community of faith is the norm, then we as a group are facing a potential crises. Maybe this is one of the reasons why the divorce rate is just as high in the church as it is outside of the church...

[Dr. Shane]

Porn is an issue with a lot of men. And saddly, with a lot of women too. Many women use porn with their husbands not so much because it is their husband's idea, but because they don't get as sexually turned on they did when younger and find they can use porn as a sexual aid to get them "in the mood". So while more men do struggle with the issue, it isn't just men that struggle with it.

>>> XXXChurch.com <<< is an excellent ministry. More churches should be using the resources they offer.

From what I have read and experienced, one of the best sexual aids is to slow down. We live such stressful lives that it impacts our libidos, especially with women. And imagine how God gave us the Sabbath just for that purpose (to slow down)!

One of the leading contributors to our sex-craziness is the television. That is a hard pill for many to swallow but most programs on the air are destructive to one's sex life.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Robert,

I have been pretty busy and haave not had the time to read your replies, but I kow they're there, hopefully tonight.

Have a great day,

Norman

[Robert]

Now I am trying to figure out how I branched off into this subject Oh well, it will come to me later, I hope.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Robert, I have just read your posts and you make some good arguments that I will think through. I will reply when I have more time. Got to get up early tomorrrow so off to be I go.

God bless,

Norman

[Robert]

I think I'll start another post on Bible and theology called, "Is the man of Romans 7 converted?"

Rob

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Robert,

I have read what you posted several time and when I read it alone it sounds good to a certain degree. When I compare it with other texts and SOP it doesn’t harmonize. There are some point’s I’d like to make which I hope will help you see where I’m coming from.

1. The reality of what Paul is saying in Romans 7

2. The nature of Paul’s writing

3. The definition of sin

4. Bible and SOP Quotes that support what I am trying to say.

Part 1.

1. The reality of what Paul is saying

Let’s be real with what Paul is actually saying and see if this can truly apply to him when he was writing this.

Rom 7:15 And I have no clear knowledge of what I am doing, for that which I have a mind to do, I do not, but what I have hate for, that I do. BBE

Rom 7:19 For the good which I have a mind to do, I do not: but the evil which I have no mind to do, that I do. BBE (I chose just these 2 verse to cut down on my long posts)

I have asked myself, how in the world could Paul say these things? This is telling me that Paul was never able to do the good he wanted to do, but only the evil that was in his flesh. The word evil, basically translates to, things he abhorred that were contrary to the law. Is that the way Paul really was? That is exactly what these verses are saying. I can’t believe that Paul was like that because there are so many other writings of his that contradict this as being his current condition when writing the epistle. In the Romans verses above, he’s not saying that he thinks these things, but that he’s actually doing them and basically has no power to stop it. (Rom 7:17 So now it is no more I that do it, but sin which dwelleth in me.) This is the same bondage that he talks about in Rom 8:15 “For ye received not the spirit of bondage again unto fear; but ye received the spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.” This bondage of fear is a result of not knowing the Father and not keeping the law. We no longer need to fear as we have learned how much God loves us and what He has done for us through and in Christ. If Paul is saying that verses 15 & 19 are actually the way he’s living then he’s condemning himself.

Now let’s look at other verses taken from Galatians in contrast of what is said in Rom 7 above.

Gal 5:14 For all the law is made complete in one word, even in this, Have love for your neighbor as for yourself. 15 But if you are given to fighting with one another, take care that you are not the cause of destruction one to another. 16 But I say, Go on in the Spirit, and you will not come under the rule of the evil desires of the flesh. 17 For the flesh has desires against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh; because these are opposite the one to the other; so that you may not do the things which you have a mind to do. 18 But if you are guided by the Spirit, you are not under the law. Gal 5:19 Now the works of the flesh are clear, which are these: evil desire, unclean things, wrong use of the senses, 20 Worship of images, use of strange powers, hates, fighting, desire for what another has, angry feelings, attempts to get the better of others, divisions, false teachings, 21 Envy, uncontrolled drinking and feasting, and such things: of which I give you word clearly, even as I did in the past, that they who do such things will have no part in the kingdom of God. BBE

Verse 16 says that by following the Spirit you will not come under the rule of the evil desires of the flesh. This is echoing - Rom 8:12 So then, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh: 13 for if ye live after the flesh, ye must die; but if by the Spirit ye put to death the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Verse 19 is describing the works of the flesh which are what Paul is talking about in the above Romans verses. He makes a clear distinction that there are two camps and one of them is not going to inherit the kingdom of God if they do these things. The point here that Paul is making is that you cannot have both leading you. In other words you cannot be led of the Spirit and live like Romans 7. It is not possible. Christians that are half hearted (Laodiceans?) fall into this category and experience this battle. Paul also had this battle before he was converted. It happened around the time Stephen was stoned and afterwards when Jesus met him on the road to Damascus. Jesus said to Saul, “it is hard for thee to kick against the pricks.” Saul’s conscience was bothering him and this battle was taking place in him for a while. He wanted to do that which was good but he was truly doing that which was evil and he could not stop himself, until Jesus stopped him. That was his selfish fleshly nature controlling him. These things are true and can’t be denied.

So then what was Paul talking about in Rom 7?

Rom 7:9 And there was a time when I was living without the law: but when the law gave its orders, sin came to life and put me to death; 10 And I made the discovery that the law whose purpose was to give life had become a cause of death: 11 For I was tricked and put to death by sin, which took its chance through the law. 12 But the law is holy, and its orders are holy, upright, and good. 13 Was then that which is good, death to me? In no way. But the purpose was that sin might be seen to be sin by working death to me through that which is good; so that through the orders of the law sin might seem much more evil. 14 For we are conscious that the law is of the spirit; but I am of the flesh, given into the power of sin.

When you read this through without interruption you can see that verse 14 pertains to the context of the previous verses. The context is that, “there was a time” or “I was alive once.” Then Paul goes on to describe that time and how he lived. Also we know that his nature was still with him, only he kept his body in subjection. 1Co 9:27 but I buffet my body, and bring it into bondage: lest by any means, after that I have preached to others, I myself should be rejected. I will explain this a little more in part 2. In order to keep this short I will post part 2, 3 & 4 separately.

Norman.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

To those who are interested I will continue to post parts 2-4 in another thread that Robert started just for this topic.

See, "Is the man in Romans 7 converted"