Sexual immorality abounds

[Dr. Shane]

An alcoholic can recover from alcoholism in that he or she completely loses the desire to drink alcohol and it ceases to be a temptation for them. A homosexual can recover from homosexuality in the same way. They can completely lose the attaction for the same sex to the point where it ceases to be a temptation for them. Neither is easy - for the alcoholic or homosexual. And both take time, more for some than others.

Now both alcoholics and homosexuals have other issues in how they relate to others that have nothing to do with drinking or same-sex relations. These issues continue even after the person has "recovered". For example, while I no longer have any desire to drink alcohol, I still have many alcoholic behaviors that I have to deal with. Phsychologists have said that in that sense, alcoholics and homosexuals are cousins of sorts.

Exodus International which is a ministry for gays by gays says:

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On the statistical side, careful reviews of research studies on sexual orientation change suggest that real change is indeed possible. Studies suggesting change rates in the range of 30-50% are not unusual, although "success rates" vary considerably and the measurement of change is problematic.

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[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Gregory,

I understand what you're saying but I do not agree and I don't find what you believe supported in the Bible. It is found in some studies, but they don't convince me.

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But, the fact remains that gender orientation is not a personal choice. That is a reality.

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Who made that a fact and a reality? That is what people believe because of what they have been told or because of their conclusions and I don't believe it.

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I have taken studies in alcoholism. But, I am not an expert. Yet, I know that there is an approach to alcoholism that telle people that alcoholism is an inward condition, and not related to the consumption of alcohol. A person may have stopped drinking. But, that person remains an alcoholic. I have a close relative who fits this catagory. She has been dry for years, yet, today she is an alcoholic.

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I have some experience in this. I went to a 33 day rehab (along with the follow up) program, I went to a psychologist to find out why I behaved the way I did, I took some courses and read books. I am not an expert but can tell you what I have found that can relate to homosexuality.

I was told that alcoholism was a condition that I had no control over. I had friends who were told the same thing. I have seen a lot of people in AA and NA struggle with the meaning of life in their new sobriety. Some of whom were told that this was not their fault and that basically it was genetic had the hardest time. They would come to meeting and ask "Is this all there is?" Many times I heard that question and some of these beautiful souls took their own lives becuase they saw no change and no hope of them ever getting better. This was in part due to the lie that they were told that they this way not by choice.

I couldn't understand why they would do this at the time but I sure see it now. I see it clearly because I went through what they did. But I chose to believe that while it was helpful in the beginning to be told that this is genetic and that it would be my lot for life so to speak, I changed my mind on this. It helped me deal with the guilt and the shame of being labelled an alcoholic. After I had come back to God something different flowed through my soul and it is called faith. I realized that I was a new creature and the reason I did what I did (drinking) was because I used it to deal with the emptiness in my soul created by my own system of belief which I developed as I was growing up. I had to deal with my mother and the feelings of abandonment.

When I found my Father through the leading of Jesus I was fulfilled and a new current of motivation flowed in my soul. I found what I was looking for all my life! I no longer considered myself an alcoholic but I'd call myself a recovering alcoholic in order to have a say at the meetings. I saw the low ground these friends of mine were traveling on and tried to encourage them to believe and find faith.

On one occasion a gay man approached me and told me he wanted help. He was a mess and an emotional wreck to say the least. I hung around with him and brought him to my church (SDA) and didn't tell anyone about him and his situation. He was learning more about God and I could see a change in him. His thoughts were changing. When I first met him he was obsessed with his ex boyfriend and as we studied he no longer talked about him but was asking about the Lord. Unfortuanely he had to move because of his courses and I moved as well. But I saw the change starting, it was real and it was mirroring what I had gone through.

Back to my experience; Gregory I am no longer an alcoholic, I am a new creature. This is biblical. AA is great but it only goes so far. I would never call myself an alcoholic and disrespect my Lord. There is power in the cross that the Lord has given us and His apostles tell us about.We can be new and we can be led by His Spirit.

Ehs 5:18 And be not drunk with wine, wherein is excess; but be filled with the Spirit; 19 Speaking to yourselves in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing and making melody in your heart to the Lord; 20 Giving thanks always for all things unto God and the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ;

Living like this, one is taken to a higher ground and temptations are no longer the same. My friend if you're temptations remain the same after you have come to Christ and are living for God you are not born again. You have new motives, new desires and new activities all of which will draw a heated wrath from Satan. As they come, strength and joy builds.

The same thing that happened to me and started to happen to my gay friend can happen to any gay person. Why? Because it is a choice to start with. We have control over what we can change (The things we decided to do. What we can't change, has control over us (when we have no power to choose) and if being gay is not a choice then bondage will follow and never can that person be free in mind, spirit and temptation will continue to be the same. Which is contrary to the truth that has power to change and save.

Write this down somewhere and it will be helpful. Anything that brings shame can be overcome, whether in thought or deed.

Norman

[Gregory Matthews]

Re: "An alcoholic can recover from alcoholism in that he or she completely loses the desire to drink alcohol and it ceases to be a temptation for them. A homosexual can recover from homosexuality in the same way. They can completely lose the attaction for the same sex to the point where it ceases to be a temptation for them."

Shane, and Norman, there is a fundamental issue in such comments. How do you define "homosexual?"

When you define it by actions, it is clear that as people can change their actions, you can say that they are no longer homosexual.

When you define it by gender orientation, as I do, you will find that there is no well documented research that tells us that people can change their orientation.

Yes, homosexual exit ministries, such as Exodus make such claims. But, their claims rest on what I am telling you--a change in actions, and not orientation. People who read and understand research know that the research claims of such exit organizations are not believeable.

This raises an issue about God. Can God change anything? My answer is yes. But, I point you to Paul, he pled with God to effect some change in physical condition in his life. Finally Paul accepted the reality that he was going to have to live with it.

We see the same in psychological issues. Modern science can treat schizophrenia. It can relieve symptons. But, one who is a schizophrenic remains a schizophrenic, and has to constantly deal with such issues. I have woked with schizophrenics. Beleive me, they do not chose such a condition.

We see this factor in life every day. God tells us that He can change and cure, but we will have to wait until eternity for some changes and cures. I believe that changes in gender orientation is one on which we will have to wait. I believe that there is not credible research that shows that such changes can be made, when the word "homosexual" is properly defined. So-called bi-sexuals are not homosexual, they do not have a fized gender oritntation to the same sex. Child molesters are not homosexual, as a group (an individual one may be), they are pedophiles.

[Gregory Matthews]

Re: "Write this down somewhere and it will be helpful. Anything that brings shame can be overcome, whether in thought or deed."

Shame: Yes, one does not have to feel shamed for a condition that they did not chose.

Overcome thought: I am a heterosexual. When I see an attractive woman, I am aware of her sexuality. But, I can chose what to do about that. I can chose NOT to spend the next hour thinking about what I would like to do with her in bed. But, when I make that choice, my gender orientation remains the same.

A homosexual can acknowledge the attraction to a person of the same gender and then chose not to spend the next hour thinking on what they would like to do with that person in bed.

Thoughts can be chnged. Actions can be changed. But, such does not change gender orientation. Such does not change the reality of one either being a heterosexual, or a homosexual,or an asexual, but that is another subject.

People may deny that they are attracted to the same sex. That may be due to shame which has caused them to blot that attraction from their minds. This is one of the reasons that some research is not believeable. It does not account for "denial" and simply accepts what people say. Credible research attaches certain recording instruemnts to people which objectively determine whether or not whether or not they are sexually stimulated by the same sex. One cannot be certain based u0pon what they say.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Gregory

just have a minute.

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Thoughts can be chnged. Actions can be changed. But, such does not change gender orientation. Such does not change the reality of one either being a heterosexual, or a homosexual,or an asexual, but that is another subject.

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Matt 12: 35 A good man out of the good treasure of the heart bringeth forth good things: and an evil man out of the evil treasure bringeth forth evil things.

What you are determines what you think and what you do. God can change all that. Will explain later, if need to.

have a great day Gregory,

Norman

[Derrell M]

Norman,

It seems to me that if I am reading you right, you are saying that If a person has the propensity and is tempted, that is proof that they are an evil person.

In that case, you are an evil man, and so is Gregory, and me, and everyone else. We are all tempted by things that are wrong, and nobody can be tempted by something that they don't want and have some inclination for.

Gregory, does the Church teach that a true Christian has no physical, emotional, or mental inclinations toward anything wrong? That all of that is eliminated when a person becomes a Christian and is baptised?

[Gregory Matthews]

Re: "Gregory, does the Church teach that a true Christian has no physical, emotional, or mental inclinations toward anything wrong? That all of that is eliminated when a person becomes a Christian and is baptised?"

No.

And our experience tells us that the Christian life is a life of growth, both in knowledge, and in experience.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Friend,

No you're not reading me right I am not saying that at all. I have no time tonight as I have a laptop to fix, I need your prayers.

Norman

[Derrell M]

Oh, I'm sorry man. Hope you are alright. You sure do have my prayers.

[Robert]

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Gregory Matthews said:

Can God change anything?

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After conversion God doesn't change our nature. As Jack Sequeira states, we remain 100% sinful by nature until translation.

Action wise we mature...nature wise we are 100% sinful even after conversion.

[Robert]

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Friend said:

Norman,

It seems to me that if I am reading you right, you are saying that If a person has the propensity and is tempted, that is proof that they are an evil person.

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Mark 7:21 “For from within, out of the heart [mind: the seat of emotions, desires, etc] of men, proceed the evil thoughts, fornications, thefts, murders, adulteries, 22 deeds of coveting and wickedness, as well as deceit, sensuality, envy, slander, pride and foolishness. 23 “All these evil things proceed from within and defile the man.”

[Dr. Shane]

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Yes, homosexual exit ministries, such as Exodus make such claims. But, their claims rest on what I am telling you--a change in actions, and not orientation.

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That is not accurate. I have worked with Exodus International, which is the largest ministry for homosexuals leaving the lifestyle. While Brother Matthews may disagree, it is noteworthy that Exodus International is a ministry for gays by gays. In the Christian world, they are well respected. While that doesn't mean that every seminary agrees with them on every point about homosexuality, they do deserve a lot of respect. They are ministering to a group that many churches want to have nothing to do with and they deserve to be given "expert" status and not belittled in any way. While one may disagree with their opinion, it shouldn't be simply written off as being wrong.

A homosexual is defined by orientation and behavior. Brother Norman wants to define them by behavior alone and Brother Matthews wants to define them by orientation alone.

Orientation can be changed but in most cases it isn't. However in 30% - 50% of those that seek help to leave the lifestyle, they do experience orientation change. Some simply lose the desire for the same sex but never are attracted to the opposite sex. Others continue to struggle with the orientation - sometimes slipping back into the behavior for periods of time.

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People who read and understand research know that the research claims of such exit organizations are not believeable.

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This is quite insulting and quite frankly, out of line. How dare we accuse another of lying about their walk with the Savior of mankind! How dare we say that Jesus Christ is not powerful enough to change a homosexual's orientation and anyone that has been a homosexual and claims to have been changed is not believable!

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I point you to Paul, he pled with God to effect some change in physical condition in his life.

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This may explain why not 100% of all homosexuals leaving the lifestyle experience orientation change. But let's not cast doubt on the Christian testimony of the 30% - 50% that claim to have been changed.

Let's not compare homosexuality to schizophrenia.

[Robert]

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This may explain why not 100% of all homosexuals leaving the lifestyle experience orientation change. But let's not cast doubt on the Christian testimony of the 30% - 50% that claim to have been changed.

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As in no longer attracted to another man?

Whether genetic or whatever, sin has influenced all areas of our lives. Simplistically I would call this "the flesh"....That God doesn't touch. The power of the Spirit is through the mind...and then the mind is empowered to say "no to ungodliness".... Nevertheless, the flesh remains 100% sinful! So the change occurs in the mind only.

What God can do, through the Spirit, is to take the overwhelming addiction to sin away, but He doesn't remove the nature. He simply sets the mind free of its fleshly addiction. Hence, in action we can progress, but in nature we are sinful until our dying day.

Rob

[Dr. Shane]

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As in no longer attracted to another man?

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30% - 50% of gays that have sought help to leave the lifestyle claim to have had their orientation changed. That is a large margin of error (20%) and it is so big because the studies that have been done have not been so easy to validate. However at least 30% of those seeking help have experienced orientation change (or at least claim to have experienced such change). That means instead of being attracted to the same sex, they are attracted to the opposite sex. In addition to them, there is another group that, while not being attracted to the opposite sex, claims to no longer be attracted to the same sex.

[Gregory Matthews]

Re: "

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People who read and understand research know that the research claims of such exit organizations are not believeable.

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This is quite insulting and quite frankly, out of line. How dare we accuse another of lying about their walk with the Savior of mankind!"

Shane, you misrepresent what I have said in two ways. First I stated that the "researach claims of such exit organizations" are not believable. I did not personalize it to anyone. Research is not believeable when the research is poorly documented according to scientific principles of researach. A statement such as the one that I made has nothing to do with the actual truth. Something may be true, but the research claim that states it is true because the research was flawed. The bottom line is that the claims of such exit organizations are unsupported by reputable, peer-reviewed research, and therefore not be be believed.

Re: "How dare we say that Jesus Christ is not powerful enough to change a homosexual's orientation. . ."

Shane, if you have read my posts you know that I have stated that God is able to change a person's gender orientation. God is able to heal the sick. But, I have stated that God has chosen to allow some of that to wait for eternity, and such is what we see happening in gender orientation. There is not credible evidence that homosexual people as I, and most homosexuals, have defined it, ever change their gender orientation. We do see them changing their actions, and we do see celebate homosexuals. But, they remain homosexual, due to their gender orientation.

Well, Shane, you have clearly misrepresented me. You have applied what I said in a manner that I did not. I remind you again, that there are four (as described by many) definations of homosexuality. You are crossing definations and presenting me in the context of a defination that I have rejected. I do not mind your differences with me. But, at least differ with me in a manner that does not misrepresent me.

[Gregory Matthews]

Re: "30% - 50% of gays that have sought help to leave the lifestyle claim to have had their orientation changed. That is a large margin of error (20%) and it is so big because the studies that have been done have not been so easy to validate."

You have made a statement that shows why such studies are not beleiveable. As you say, they are NOT easy to validate. There are reasons that they are not easy to validate, and you have shared one of those reasons.

Science makes certain demands on research, as as you tell us, those studies do not meet those demands.

NOTE: Shane's comments imply at least two violations of good research: self-selection, and control group. I am only mentioning those implied by Shane's comment, and not other issues that typically come into play with the so-called research of exit groups.

[Bravus]

Let me just chime in here that I believe everyone's sexual orientation is on a continuum, rather than a dichotomy:

[]http://www.ualberta.ca/~dgeelan/sexcont.png[/]

(That's too simple too, though: as Gregory aluded, there are people who identify as 'asexual'. I don't want to deny their identity, but I'd be interested to see if there are other traumas there that have led to that condition... To say it better, there may well be people who are genuinely asexual by orientation, but I suspect fewer than would describe themselves that way.)

The majority of people are near the ends of the continuum: 99% straight identified, with maybe just the occassional person of the same sex who they not only recognise is attractive but could actually be attracted to, or vice versa. But there are people who are closer to the centre, and it seems logical that it would be less of a leap for them to switch teams.

Shane, Gregory's questioning of research methodology shouldn't be interpreted as questioning of anyone's honesty. Such claims are made, but the high quality research to support them just doesn't exist, so all they really are is anecdotal evidence from experience. That's not to be discounted, but also not to be relied on completely.

[Dr. Shane]

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Shane, you misrepresent what I have said in two ways

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Perhaps I misunderstood what was said. I speak from personal experience. I have personally met individuals with Exodus International that have claimed to experienced orientation change. So to me it isn't a matter of reviewing research and trying to decide if it is scientific enough. It is a matter of whether or not I believe the person that I have spoken to about their personal experience with Christ.

I think if anyone picks up the telephone and calls the good folks at Exodus International they will find they are very open and honest about the issue. They are not trying to promote their view by deception or lies. The majority of gays trying to leave the lifestyle do not experience orientation change. But that doesn't mean that no one does or that no one can. Society once thought that alcoholics were beyond help too. But that is not true.

Note that Paul lists homosexuals along side of alcoholics and theives and makes the comment in the past tense "such were some of you" (1 Cor. 6:11) Some were homosexuals. Some were thieves. Some were alcoholics. "but you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified, in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ..." Did Paul mean that these homosexuals' orientation had been changed? Perhaps for some but even in the cases where their orientation hadn't changed, Paul no longer labeled them homosexuals.

[Dr. Shane]

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Such claims are made, but the high quality research to support them just doesn't exist

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Bravus, do you know this to be true or are you guessing? I have not personally reviewed the research or its methods so I don't know if it is sound or not. I suspect it would be quite a task to review all the research that has been done. What I know is from personal experience and the summerary of some of the research that has been done. It could be good or bad, but giving it a 20% margin of error, I would expect that to be believable within that margin. Most research I have seen has a margin of error of 3% - 5%.

[Bravus]

As you can imagine, Shane, it's really hard to find unbiased research reports: every side has an agenda.

http://www.iglss.org/media/files/Angles_41.pdf

http://www.leaderu.com/orgs/narth/attemptstomodify.html

http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m2372/is_1_36/ai_54128131

http://www.newdirection.ca/research/spitzer.htm

I should probably have been more precise and said 'I have never seen the high quality research that supports such claims': I'm not denying that it might exist, but I've never seen it - and I've gone looking. By 'high quality research' I mean research conducted with safeguards like random selection, not self-selection, as just one example.

Anyway, I think we're agreed: I would definitely accept the claim that there are people who claim to have had their orientation changed. And I would accept their claims as a definition of their perception and of their actions, if not as a psychological scientific diagnosis of their state.

[Gregory Matthews]

The point that Bravus makes is one aspect of what makes this a subject hard to discuss. People are on a continuum. A bi-sexual might be one example. This is where the issue of defination comes into play. Those who make clams of changes in gender orientation often refer to a sub-population that is at a different place on the conginuum than the people I am talking about. Because of that, I do not call them homosexuals. But, others do.

NOTE: There is a great variety of sexual experience and expression in the heterosexual population. What is not realized by many, is that there is also a g r eat variety of sexual experience and expression in the homosexual population. That is one of the things that I learned during the time I was woking with homosexuals.

[Gregory Matthews]

Shane valid research is not determined by the margin of error. If the research is flawed, it is flawed. There are statistical measurements that one can use to determine reliability. That is what one uses when one is talking about research.

Two important issues in research are validity, and reliabilaty. If you cannot show it to be valid and reliable, to accepted norms (typically 95% or 90%) you have flawed research that is not belieeable.

Shane, a person can be both wrong and honest. The fact that one may be wrong does not make that person a liar.

The testimony of a person who claims to be homosexual, and claims to no longer be one may be both accepted and doubted. That person may be accepted for telling truth, and yet doubted in some aspects.

a) Definations matter, and that person may not have truely been a homosexual.

That person may be decived and not changed orientation.

c) That person may consider certain changes in actions to be a relief from homosexuality. I am aquainted with a very sad case that is probably known to people reading these posts. But, this person recieved national media attention for changing (Exodos was involved.), and getting married. Yet as was exposed in the media that person changed to the actions of engaging in mutual masterbation with persons of the same sex. To people like me, that is simply an example that supports my comment that we do not have any documented evidence that will show us that homosexuals, as I define them, change their gender orientation. Mutual masterbation with people of the same sex is not a change in gender orientation.

By the way, I have seen him on national television telling us all of his change. I have attended his lectures where he told us that pyschology was all wrong when it said that gender orientation was fixed. I lived in the area where he lived when the documented story broke of his actual activities.

[Gregory Matthews]

Re: "Re: "30% - 50% of gays that have sought help to leave the lifestyle claim to have had their orientation changed. That is a large margin of error (20%) and it is so big because the studies that have been done have not been so easy to validate."

Shane, you are bright. I have all of the respect in the world for you IQ.

Let me suggest to you that you take a class in research methods. Take a class in statistics. I am confident that you would do well in such. Learn the language, and what it means, when people talk research.

[jasd]

Qr Frame:

Mt 19:12 For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from [their] mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive [it] , let him receive [it] .

I imagine that most of us could relate anecdotes that would pigeonhole aspects of the homosexual experience into every niche, nook and cranny conjured by the behavioural scientist; however, what aspect might one suppose

Christ to have been addressing in the above bolded?

[Gregory Matthews]

What is it that makes you think that Christ was refering to homosexuals. Homosexuals are sexually active, and are able to reach organism.

Oriental history is clear as to the role that eunuch played in court affairs [No pun intended.] Those people were either eunuchs through surgery, or through aa condition of birth, accident or some other such.