Sexual immorality abounds

November 18, 2005

Quote:

What evidence do you have that Angels do not engage in sex? Can a person [read that as 'intelligent being'] engage in poligomous sex without the commitment that we religionists insist upon here on earth?

I do not know if angels have sex but I do know that marriage is a taste of heaven. The unselfish love that one spouse is to have for another is the same type we will all have for each other in heaven. Regardless if the angels have sex or not, I have little doubt that they have as much commitment to each other as a husband and wife do.

November 18, 2005

My point is that some, or maybe many, marriages are legalized prostitution is this respect:

Woman marries man for money...man marries woman for sex and beauty.

Of course its possible for the opposite to happen, but let's face it many marriages are base on sex and money....That's all I meant....

Rob

November 18, 2005

Quote:

Bravus said:

That text Rob quoted about marriage in heaven isn't a good one to make major doctrines around, since it was Jesus disposing of a stupid, impertinent sophistical question.

Matt 22:24 "Teacher, Moses said, ‘If a man dies, having no children, his brother as next of kin shall marry his wife, and raise up an offspring to his brother.’

25 Now there were seven brothers with us; and the first married and died, and having no offspring left his wife to his brother; 26 so also the second, and the third, down to the seventh. 27 And last of all, the woman died.

28 In the resurrection therefore whose wife of the seven shall she be? For they all had her.

29 But Jesus answered and said to them, “You are mistaken, not understanding the Scriptures, or the power of God.

30 For in the resurrection [:"red"]they neither marry, nor are given in marriage,[/] but are like angels in heaven."

Here are the SIMPLE facts:

1: In the resurrection we "neither marry, nor are given in marriage"....

2: In this respect we will be like the angels.

3: In heaven there will be no sin or sinning.

4: Sex outside of marriage is sin according to God's law.

Conclusion:

Since there will be no marriage after the resurrection and since sex outside of marriage is sin - then we won't be having sex. Since we won’t be having sex there is no need of gender.

Rob: Teacher of teacher who teaches, teachers....

November 19, 2005

Quote:

Clio said:

Paul was a misogynist and a zealot. He brought both attitudes and tendancies with him when he was converted from Saul to Paul....When he spoke for himself, Paul reveals to us where his weaknesses lie. They lie in his zealous nature and in his attitudes toward women.

2 Peter 3:15 Bear in mind that our Lord’s patience means salvation, just as our dear brother Paul also wrote you with the wisdom that God gave him. 16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand....

November 19, 2005

Quote:

Woman marries man for money...man marries woman for sex and beauty.

Looks to me like Robert simply does not understand marriage.

From his complete lack of understanding, his original statement is almost a valid conclusion.

But since his premise is badly flawed, the argument is badly flawed also.

I married my wife to form a solid partnership for life, not for something I could buy for $50 down town...

/Bevin

November 19, 2005

Bevin:

I thinkthat Robert is telling us more about himself than he realizes.

In society today, there is no need to marry for sex. Robert is wrong.

November 19, 2005

Hi Gregory,

I haven't had time to reply but have a little time to do so now.

Quote:

Being homosexual is no more a choice than is my heterosexuality a choice of mine.

Our gender orientation often came to us at birth. As such, I have to say that it is NOT a sin to be a homosexual. It is a condition that will last a lifetime.

This is not what the Bible teaches, it teaches that this happens because people refuse God in their lives. At every point in our lives we have angels to guide us and keep us from doing what is harmful. Even as a child we make choices that God understands, whether they are good or evil.

Rom 1:24 Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

Rom 1:25 Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

Rom 1:26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

Rom 1:27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

Rom 1:28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;

Mat 19:12 For there are some eunuchs, which were so born from their mother's womb: and there are some eunuchs, which were made eunuchs of men: and there be eunuchs, which have made themselves eunuchs for the kingdom of heaven's sake. He that is able to receive it, let him receive it.

Now that I believe, but the attraction of one man after another comes from Satan, it is not natural unless it is a mental disorder or demon possession. There are many who have been gay and have come out of this lifestyle choice and who testify that it is a choice.

Norman

November 19, 2005

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

Gregory Matthews said:

Bevin:

I thinkthat Robert is telling us more about himself than he realizes.

In society today, there is no need to marry for sex. Robert is wrong.

Gregory and Bevin -

Robert is telling us more than he realizes about a number of things regarding himself.

Someone who doesn't understand marriage at it's deepest level cannot understand clearly nearly the entire New Testament. The Father's entire canvas for painting the relationship between His Son and the Church is that of marriage. The husband and wife relationship must be understood clearly, and from the Father's perspective, which clearly was NOT that of Paul, in order for the intricacies, nuances, and blessings of the church's relationship with the Lamb to be understood.

The entire framework of salvation throughout the New Testament culminates in the Wedding Feast of the Lamb at the Father's table in heaven.

We may only understand the relationships dimly, as though through a mirror darkly, but the more the Father's plan for covenant marriage is understood, the better will the understanding of Jesus' relationship with His Bride be understood, including His return to get her.

Clio

November 20, 2005

There is a fundamental inconsistency in the arguments that defenders of the homosexual lifestyle present. When it is suggested that homosexuality is an unhealthy abberraton of human behavior, a psychological "illness" that needs to be treated, they claim that homosexuality is merely a "lifestyle choice"--their term. But when it is pointed out that if their choice is a free choice, that makes them answerable to God for disobedience to plain declarations in the Bible (Romans two, and other places) that homosexuality is sin--then they will claim that they cannot help it, nature made them homosexuals. So they are trying to have it both ways, and the two alternatives are mutally exclusive. It cannot both be a free lifestyle choice and also be something in their nature that makes them homosexual. Any argument used by homosexuals could also be used by pedophiles, bigamists, and people involved in incest.

The real issue is that homosexuals want homosexuality to be accepted as righteous. Those who believe the Bible is the Word of God and the basis for conscience can never agree to this, because they know better.

November 20, 2005

Norman & Ron:

You both has just illustrated the point that this subject is so emotionally loaded that people who attempt to talk about it often fail to hear what is being said. You are challenging me on positions that I have not taken.

Your Biblical passages in Romans all talk about life style. I did not, and Ihave never stated that one cannot change their life style, and actions.

The cited passage in Matthew is not talking about homosexuality. Do you equate homosexuality with being a eunch? I do not.

We could debate my basic statement forever, and we probably would not agree. But, let us get down to a more fundamental issue. What is homosexuality? The reality is that many people who discuss it are coming from differing definations of the word "homosexuality."

NOTE: In cited references, I will refer to:

Sprintett, Ronald M. HOMOSEXUALITY IN HISTORY AND THE SCRIPTURES: SOME HISTORIACAL AND BIBLICAL PERSPECTIVES ON HOMOSEXUALITY. Biblical Research Institute, General Conference of Seventh-day Adventists, 1988, 173+ pages.

"The term 'homosexuality' can be used for a wide variety of human experiences. Simple definitions have the disadvantabe of distorting the concept by lumping all of them together." page 1

I have decided not to give a lot of other quotes. YOu can purchase the book if you want to.

For me, a true homosexual is one who has a steady and exclusive erotic attraction to people of the same gender.

There are other definations. Often those involve activity. I.e. If a teen experiments with same sex sexual activity that teen is homosexual. So, teen males who mutually masterbate are homosexual. I do not agree with that.

I do not consider a prisoner who engages in homosexual activity while in prison, but not at other times, to be a homosexual.

I do not consider heterosexuals, or bi-sexuals to be homosexuals.

As I understand Scripture, the Bible deals with actions, it does not condem the condition, which I beleive is not a choice in a true homosexual. I do not say that homosexuality is a creation of God. Homosexuality is a post-Fall condition over which the individual does not have a choice. I have allergies, and at one time I had asthma. I did not chose to have them. God did not plan for humans to have such. All are post-Fall.

People like J Adams totally disagree with me. Adms believed that homosexuality is not a condition, and is defined by an act. People who believe such can logically believe that homosexuality is a choice, and can be changed.

People like me who see it as a condition, and not an act, would tend to beleive that it is not a choice, but, an orientation, and that the orientation cannot be changed.

I will not attempt to get into the cause of homosexuality.

On pages 11 & 12 of the above listed book there are four definations of homosexuality listed. Read them if you care to do so.

November 20, 2005

Amen Ron

November 20, 2005

Hi Gregory,

I did read what you said and did not react to this emotionally. Not that you said I did but stated that this is an emotionally charged subject. (Note: I use the word "gay" in place of homosexual because it is quicker to type)

I think you misundersood what I wrote or I wasn't clear in what I was saying. So let me state it this way. The verses I posted from Romans are telling us that the reason they "behave" this way is because they first rejected God. So this is not only talking about behavior, but a choice. Therefore if they choose to reject God then they are making a choice to behave in a way that is unacceptable to God.

When I posted the verses about eunuchs I was trying to say that this is how some men are. Born or incapable or choose not to have relations with women. I am not saying that they are gay. What I am stating is that these eunuchs are still around today and this is the situation that some men find themselves in today. But since some do not recieve God, they think that they must then be created to love men and be with a man, therefore it is natural. I don't believe that. This is either a mental disorder or demon possession.

Quote:

I do not consider a prisoner who engages in homosexual activity while in prison, but not at other times, to be a homosexual.

This is a strange and disappointing statement. God states that such should be stoned to death, no excuses accepted. Why? Because the mind has gone so far as to think that this lustful thinking and behavior is ok. There are no behaviors that come about without thought at some point in our lives. You are right, God does not create gay people but if someone has those thoughts continually then it is because they are drawn away by their own lusts, ie their choice.

Quote:

I have allergies, and at one time I had asthma. I did not chose to have them. God did not plan for humans to have such. All are post-Fall.

If this is the case then all things are not our fault and therefore we are not accountable for being the way that we are. (Behaviors excluded) It is true that God does not hold us responsible for being born sinners, (He is not mad at us for being born that way) but when we reject His promptings, calling and warnings, we are responsible. This is the case with gays. There is no way you can tell me that at some point in their lives God didn't speak to these poeple and tell them that their thoughts, feelings, desires and actions are wrong. They were all impressed. God has an angel for every human prompting them to think and do right. Going contrary to that in thought alone is making a choice. Being born not wanting to be married or to have sex is not a problem, no sin. But the moment one chooses to lust after another of the same sex, that is transgression. Jesus taught us that you can no longer separate thought and action but that sin takes place first in the mind.

The good news is that we are given the choice of becoming new creatures, all of us. Then the body dies because of sin and are lusts are buried in baptism. We are new creatures and our minds no longer are controlled by the flesh. Now if a gay person is as you state then they would not be a new creature but still gay with different behavior. Doesn't sound like God is making him new to me.

If gays reject God's offer then no matter what they do or don't do, they have made a choice to be gay.

November 20, 2005

Quote:

The good news is that we are given the choice of becoming new creatures, all of us. Then the body dies because of sin and are lusts are buried in baptism. We are new creatures and our minds no longer are controlled by the flesh. Now if a gay person is as you state then they would not be a new creature but still gay with different behavior. Doesn't sound like God is making him new to me.

Didn't Paul talk about how he was constantly doing what he didn't want to do and not doing what he wanted to do? Didn't he also say something about the spirit being willing but the flesh being weak? I understand that he wrote these things after his baptism into Christianity and a newness in Christ.

A removal of desire will result in a removal of temptation. Gay people are tempted to act gay. People with tempers are tempted to lose their tempers. People who enjoy being prolific are tempted to commit adultery or fornication. God promises strength to overcome temptation, but I've never seen anything that states there will be no temptation.

November 20, 2005

How do you deal with a statement from your child like this. "Yeah, I know dad. Boys and and girls aren't supposed to sleep together until they are married... unless they are like mom and (boyfriend) and know they will get married. Then its alright." All I could do is go to www.bible.com and look up fornication to show the child that it is wrong. But, when one of the parties is viewed by the kid as as an authority on spiritual matters by virtue of that person's public position in representation of church, and it forces the matter of saying that the kid's mom is wrong and in sin, it can place a dad in a very sticky position. Any help here?

November 20, 2005

Friend,

Children need to know what their parents believe. They don't need to be told what to believe themselves, however. They just need to be shown what the parent believes and why. From that information, a child can form his/her own opinions.

It is not for any human--not even for parents--to change the hearts of children. It is God's doing, through the Holy Spirit, that a change takes place. It is the Christian's duty to simply guide by showing what is believed in the scriptures and then living as he/she believes.

There is nothing wrong with saying, "Son/Daughter, I believe that I am a sinner. I have sinned. I believe that your mother/father is also a sinner. I believe that sex before marriage is a sin. I'll show you in the Bible where it talks about this; I'll show you why I believe it."

It is wrong to say, "You should believe it too!"

Chrys

November 20, 2005

Norman:

Again, we are not communicating, and you are not responding to what I am saying. The fault may lie with me in that I am not communicating in a manner that you understand, so I do not point the finger of blame at you. I am simply saying that such is happening. For whatever reason, you do not appear to have any understanding of what I have said.

Let me give you one example of where our communication has failed:

<blockquote>Quote:<hr />

I do not consider a prisoner who engages in homosexual activity while in prison, but not at other times, to be a homosexual.

This is a strange and disappointing statement. God states that such should be stoned to death, no excuses accepted. Why? Because the mind has gone so far as to think that this lustful thinking and behavior is ok. There are no behaviors that come about without thought at some point in our lives. You are right, God does not create gay people but if someone has those thoughts continually then it is because they are drawn away by their own lusts, ie their choice."

I stated that I did not consider such a person to be a homosexual. I never said that such behavior was morally right. I did not say that it was excusable. If you have read other posts I have made, you will know that I have said that we can tell a person with an orintation toward the same sex to remain celebate just as we can tell a heterosexual person, who is not married, to remain celebate.

In your response to me, you have focused on bahavior. You mention thoughts. I assume that you are a heterosexual, male. Are you telling me that you never see a woman, not your wife, whom you find sexually attractive?

In such a situation you make a choice as to what you do with that thought. You decide how to act upon it. You may chose to spend the next hour reflecting upon it, and thinking about what your might do if you had the opportunity to act upon it. Or, you might chose to put it out of your mind.

Norman, the thought is a temptation. The temptation is not sin. But, if you spend the next 60 minutes thinking about what you would like to do with her, that is sin.

I have a 50+ YO friend who began smoking as a teen. He has quite several times, but has not smoked in more than a decade. He tells me that everyday his body tells him that it wants a cigarette. Everyday he tells his body No. That desire is not sin. Temptation is not sin. Choices that people make, may be sin. [in the interests of communication, I stated that choices may be sin, because I believe that a choice to not act on the sin is not sin. <img src="/ubbtreads/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

November 20, 2005

Quote:

This is a strange and disappointing statement. God states that such should be stoned to death, no excuses accepted. Why? Because the mind has gone so far as to think that this lustful thinking and behavior is ok.

The same set of rules expects adulterers and people who pick up sticks on Saturday to get stoned to death, but you don't insist on their activities being illegal, do you!

You are being very selective in choosing which OT rules you want incorporated into the law of the land.

/Bevin

November 20, 2005

Friend,

if you are relying on authority-figures (the Bible, EGW, yourself) as the basis for your child's values, then you are in for a horrible shock.

In their teenage years, kids discover exactly how weak and untrustworthy those sources are. They reject authority - and wisely so, given how all the authority figures - their family, their church, their government, their president - lie to them, manipulate them, and make mistakes.

You should DISCUSS with your kid WHY sleeping with someone other than their spouse is a bad idea. What are the pro's and the con's of the behavior. Then, when they reject YOU as a source of morality, they will still stay with their thought-through conclusions...

/Bevin

November 20, 2005

Quote:

My point is that some, or maybe many, marriages are legalized prostitution is this respect:

Woman marries man for money...man marries woman for sex and beauty.

I think Robert's sentiment refers to a group of secular people that, while perhaps not a majority of the population, is larger than most of us really want to admit.

November 20, 2005

Quote:

Norman & Ron:

You both has just illustrated the point that this subject is so emotionally loaded that people who attempt to talk about it often fail to hear what is being said. You are challenging me on positions that I have not taken.

When talking about this issue we really have to go the extra mile to make ourselves clear. In past discussions I have found myself in agreement with Brother Matthews so I knew what he was trying to say but suspected it would not be understood by some that would read it.

Where I may disagree with Brother Matthews is the extent that homosexuality is genetic. There appears clearly to be genetic influence on it. Yet I distinguish being a homosexual from having homosexual tendencies. When working in a ministry for homosexuals we had a man come for help that was attracted to other men sexually and had dreams about having sex with other men but had never had sex with men. He was not labeled a homosexual but rather a person having homosexual tendencies. It may seem trivial but for the person struggling with it (and the devil tempting them) it isn't.

Like Brother Matthews, I do not believe one homosexual act makes a person homosexual anymore than one drink makes one an alcoholic. Many in prison commit homosexual acts for reasons other than sexual attraction. Many civilians commit homosexual acts simply out of curiosity (as strange as that may seem). However, regardless the motive, homosexual conduct is sin as defined by the Bible.

Studies I have read in the past few years have shown that while male homosexualty does not seem to be increasing, female experimentation with gay sex has been increasing dramaticly. I believe the last study I read had the percentage of males that claimed to have had sex with another male, sometime during their lifetime, at just above 2% and the number of females that had sex with another female just above 11%. 20 years ago those numbers were closer. While I doubt homosexuality is growing among females, it does appear that more females are experimenting with the behavior.

November 20, 2005

Quote:

There is nothing wrong with saying, "Son/Daughter, I believe that I am a sinner. I have sinned. I believe that your mother/father is also a sinner. I believe that sex before marriage is a sin. I'll show you in the Bible where it talks about this; I'll show you why I believe it."

I think this is very good advice for divorced parents where one of the parents is a nonbeliever.

November 20, 2005

Quote:

Shane said:

Quote:

My point is that some, or maybe many, marriages are legalized prostitution is this respect:

Woman marries man for money...man marries woman for sex and beauty.

I think Robert's sentiment refers to a group of secular people that, while perhaps not a majority of the population, is larger than most of us really want to admit.

Bingo....

Clio, Bevin and Gregory need to get out more!

November 20, 2005

Quote:

Clio, Bevin and Gregory need to get out more!

ROFLOL

I work in a high tech company (Intel)

I attend paramedic classes 8h per week (not an SDA in sight)

I work in the ER or other rotations 8-16h per week

I attend ambulance training and calls

I eat and sleep

I have not been in an SDA church since before last Christmas

/Bevin

November 20, 2005

Then you should know how "the world" is....

November 20, 2005

Yes, I do

and it is not the legalized prostitution nonsense that you are pushing

/Bevin

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