Sexual immorality abounds

[Robert]

I have a bad feeling where all this is going to end up. Practically everything is sex based. First sex only within marriage was derided. You heard it in the popular songs and saw it in the movies. That was the 60's and 70's....Then in the 80's the homosexual community came out of the closet.

Now we have a pandemic pedophile issue on our hands! It’s out of control….Sad to say all the acceptance of society's sexual perversions from the past have built the foundation we now have today.

[Fran]

Robert;

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It is a matter of supply and demand. The marketers give what the people with money want! As long as we continue to go to movies, rent these movies, frequent the bars and strip joints, they will abound.

Of course we don't attend the movies with our teens because that would be unthinkable! Kids see it in the movies and act out accordingly.

Teens buy the teen and a glamour magazine to see what is “in”. Less is in! In the dead of winter pants hang low and shirts are short. The midriff is there for all to see. Skirts are so short, you dare not bend over.

Women are killing themselves to be thin so they can wear what the clothes designers are supplying. They know their market.

Today's kids have no work ethic. They have too much money to spend as they please. Even our boarding schools feed the kids what they want, not what they need.

So as long as there is a demand for sex and sexual behaviors outside of marriage, it will get worse.

Expect it to get worse. It is about money. The producers of all those products supply what the people with money demand. It appears what people want is sex outside of marriage, violence and very bad language.

It is the same within the church; Supply and demand. Produce what will make the people give more and more. It happens in the home. It boils down to self. Give me what I want when I want it, and right now. We become what we consume; Garbage in, Garbage out.

[bevin]

I have 17, 20, and 22 yo daughters who attend public schools / universities. They talk to us.

I have friends in various workplaces with similar age kids. We talk.

I got involved with the high school drama group. They talk.

I was born in the late 1950's. I know first hand what teens were like 30 years ago. I regretted when mini-skirts went out and maxi's came in.

The kids today are not all that different from those 30 years ago - in any dimension. There is a huge range today, as there was back then - except maybe in one way...

It is true that they are more accepting of homosexuals.

This is a good thing.

/Bevin

ps: I posted elsewhere about GHB. 30 years ago booze was used...

[Neil D]

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Practically everything is sex based. First sex only within marriage was derided. You heard it in the popular songs and saw it in the movies. That was the 60's and 70's....Then in the 80's the homosexual community came out of the closet.

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I would agree that there is more homosexuality being discussed.

As for the conversations of sex, or the sexual content of our culture, well, ...I have to recently purchased the recordings of Abott and Costello...Their jokes has just as much sexual content then as they do today...sometime even more resque`. Oh, and by the way, do you remember when the bikini first came into existance? Is was NOT in the 60's...It was in the 30's, during your father's era...Granted, it was on the French Riviera, but there it was...And Betty Grabel wasn't exactly dressed in a one piece either for our boys in WW2.

No, what is being seen is a PR campaign...where people see it, and report it, and the rest of us become shocked.....Control the information that comes to you, and you control how you percieve the world is.... That is what should be shocking you...

[Bravus]

Couple of quick things:

1. We shouldn't compare the society of today only with Western society of the 1950s - that's far too geographically narrow and historically short a frame of reference. Compared with most of history, our actual sexual *behaviour* as a society is much more like the Christian ideals than in most other times and places.

2. I'd argue that it's about information, as much as or more than it's about money. I'd suggest that there was just as much pedophilia happening in the 1950s as there is now, possibly more, but that it was all swept under the carpet and hushed up - which left kids unprotected and parents without the information they needed in order to protect them. Similarly for homosexuality and all other forms of sexual behaviour: I suspect what's *happening* in the world's bedrooms hasn't changed that much, it's just what we know about it.

3. There is strong research that shows that the more kids know about sex (and ideally about love and relationships too), the later they start having sex. So clearly the 'no information' strategy simply doesn't work, because the hormones are providing plenty of information of their own!

Yes, our world is much more openly sexual, and that provides its own added temptations and issues - I hear what Fran is saying about women's struggles to fit into some of these images, for example. But bemoaning it is only the negative side of our response to it. What are we as Christians doing positively to hold up, explain and most of all live out God's ideals for loving, joyful - and, frankly, hot and heavy! - marriage relationships?

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Robert how's it going? I am still working on a response to 2 Thess 2:10, 11 and am about ready to post it. Hopefully this w/e if not too busy.

The one thing that I have noticed is that the disgust factor is all but gone. Almost all things that God calls an abomination are seen as acceptable. It's in your face in many places and many dare not say anything without getting blasted. Those who live contrary to God's plan have no clue of what God is like. They have not experience the power of God to help them see His glory in order to surrender their lives to Him. By their continual excuses they reject the Gospel and seal their fate by turning from the One who can help them overcome and it's so unnecessary.

We live in a sick world and God is right when He told us that the whole head is sick; we are just a messed up bunch of created beings. We live by emotions and self pity and holiness is not understood. But God has a plan and those who accept His Son will escape this sickness and be renewed in mind and spirit. To accept as normal what God has denounced is a dangerous road to walk on.

Honestly Rob, it's so sad to see what's going on in this world. Evil abounds and most of God's children see nothing wrong with it and are basically asleep.

I guess I'd better stop before I say something I might regret.

God bless,

Norman

[Dr. Shane]

The world has always been worldly. What we see today that hasn't been seen before is the church accepting the worldly standards. Homosexuality is a good example. Never in the history of the Christian church has homosexuality been accepted until recent years. But it doesn't end there. That is only the most striking example.

[Robert]

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It is true that they are more accepting of homosexuals.

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Then should one be more accepting pedophiles?

While I agree with loving sinners (for we all are sinners), we shouldn't love their sexual perversions. Men with men and women with women, sexually, are a perversion of God's intent. It is unnatural....

And of course lusting after kids is also perverted. Although we must remember that about 100 years ago it was all well and fine for a man of eighteen to marry a girl around 13 or 14....

[bevin]

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Then should one be more accepting pedophiles?

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Your inability to distinquish between the behavior of consenting adults and an abuse of an authoritarian position does you no credit.

Just because I don't mind you driving a Ford sedan doesn't mean I approve you eating bald eagles.

/Bevin

[Robert]

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bevin said:

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Then should one be more accepting pedophiles?

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Your inability to distinquish between the behavior of consenting adults and an abuse of an authoritarian position does you no credit.

/Bevin

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Oh, I'm sorry...I forgot if it’s between two consenting adults it “ain't” sin....

Silly me,

Rob

[bevin]

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I forgot if it’s between two consenting adults it “ain't” sin....

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The issue is NOT "is it sin".

The issue is "which activities by others should we allow them to perform without legislative or other harrassment".

You belong to a denomination that teaches the doctrines of the Catholic Church are wicked. Yet the SDA church supports their legal right to exist.

You belong to a denomination that teaches adultery is bad. Yet the SDA church does not promote laws banning adultery and jailing the offenders.

You belong to a denomination that teaches the eating of pig is bad. Yet the SDA church supports the legal right of people to eat bacon.

You belong to a denomination that teaches movies and card playing is evil. Yet the SDA church supports the legal right of people to go to the movies and play cards.

It is hypocritical to support laws that discriminate against gays and to act in a less tolerant manner towards them than you do towards the other activities you disagree with.

/Bevin

[Clio]

But Sin is exactly what it's ALL about. It's about a heart filled with love for Him, and from that comes a thirst for His knowledge and way of doing things.

The hardest part is doing it HIS way, not the way we THINK it should be, or want it to be, or can agree with.

His way just is. You can choose Him, and do it His way. Or not... and since He's the Creator, when you choose NOT to do it His way, He then gets to choose whether you live or die. Not because He's cruel, mean, or bloodthirsty. Just because He is the Creator, and He created all the Universe to function a certain way.

If you create something, and it malfunctions for whatever reason, you have the choice of destroying it immediately or fixing it first, and then if it still doesn't meet the criteria of why you created it in the first place destroying it.

He is the Creator. His Creation malfunctioned, starting with Lucifer. He has made the fix, and in keeping with His Nature, offered each of His human creations a choice. They choose and then He does His thing. He's only holding off so that as many of His creations as will choose Him have an opportunity to do so.

And much as people want there to be other ways, paths, and choices, there's really only one.

Will you serve your Creator according to His instructions or will you not?

And that does not include practicing any sort of sexual immorality (including fornication and adultery, not just homosexuality) and following after false doctrine as identified in His Word.

The excess drinking, eating pig, gambling, movies, etc. are not particularly wise, but they do not come under the heading of "sin" unless your heart attitude is such that you give over the place of the Most High in your heart to them.

Clio

[Bravus]

God invented sex. God wants us to have great, mind-blowing sex. God does not hate sex.

So, having that basis, I ask the question again: what positive things are we as Christians doing to hold up God's ideal of fulfilling, fantastic sex lives for couples? Are we helping people learn about how to better satisfy their partners? Are we being positive about married sexuality in our churches and publications? Are we doing anything in this area? Are we even letting the Song of Solomon be used to think about sexual intimacy, or are we explaining it away as purely symbolic and prophetic? Sure, challenge the various counterfeit currencies, but unless we also spend and save the real currency, what's the point?

[Gail]

But... what about those who are not in a position where partaking in sexual activity is an option (singles)? This abounding in society of sexual images and liberal mindsets can only be a temptation.

What is an acceptable level of exposure? Does anyone know?

[Neil D]

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What is an acceptable level of exposure? Does anyone know?

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And I don't remember if God said something about taking temptation away? In fact, I am sure He did not...

The acceptable level is our own...WE make the choice and WE have to have the integrity to recognise it and take appropriate action.

For those who are not married, as long as one is being honest and faithful to the future spouse, I see nothing wrong with seeking the future spouse...

Let me remind you that "being true to yourself" also includes those times when being with someone is pretty nice.

Now, having said that, I am sure that I have opened Pandora's box....

[Gregory Matthews]

Re: "God invented sex."

How many of you know that "God invented sex" is the title of a book that a SDA author once wrote, and wa published by a SDA publishing house?

[Bravus]

/me raises his hand

[Dr. Shane]

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what positive things are we as Christians doing to hold up God's ideal of fulfilling, fantastic sex lives for couples?

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My wife and I went to an Adventist-run Marriage Encounter where they seperated the husbands and the wives and graphically explained how to improve our sex lives. They even have graphic charts. In talking to my wife afterwards, the wives got into much more detail about "secrets" than us husbands did.

[bevin]

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In talking to my wive's afterwards

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How many do you have, Shane?

/Bevin

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Bevin,

Here's what I see. There is a problem with using the word sin only to describe transgression, lawlessness or iniquity. Please bear with me for a moment as I go through this basic but often overlooked definition of sin.

1 John 3:4

Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

John 16:7

Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. 8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment: 9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;

The one definition of sin that I did not understand before I left church for 10 years was that unbelief is sin. When I saw that, my experience with God changed. I was focusing on not breaking the law and keeping it and that was my source of joy. Then when I returned I saw that for what it was. Then God showed me that when I don't believe in Jesus it will lead to transgression, lawlessness and iniquity.

To get to the heart of this go back to Gen 3 Eve believes the lie and then Adam goes along and we have this mess. Unbelief is sin which will positively lead to transgression. Until we or anyone who is living contrary to God's will (which is only for our/their own good) see that, there will be no change in our behavior and we will begin to look for all kinds of comforts to sooth the great pain of spiritual and true emotional emptiness.

The distorting of God's character is still going on and will continue till the end. By having the wrong picture of God the world does not want to submit to Him. Then there are those who are going to reject God no matter what picture they have of Him.

It is our calling to reveal His character of love, mercy and justice so the world can make an informed choice about Him.

So what's the point of all this? As God's representatives we cannot make excuses for those who transgress. If we do, they will not have any reason to desire or seek change. While we cannot condemn anyone, we must help them see that they need Jesus to overcome their enslaving habits. (No matter what they are)

The spreading of destructive sex is done by Satan so that people will not want to come to God because they feel condemned, therefore they will not even want God in their thoughts. If he can secure this the he has won over them till they see their need for Christ. But how can they see their need if everything around them is telling them it's ok and it's those Christians that are hate mongers. (Which some are)

We cannot be accepting of their practices (no matter what the transgression) so how then do we teach them? By loving them with an honest concern for their wellbeing. I was sexually abused as a child and I have no hate for people who do those things. I cannot for one moment let some one like that think that being gay, homosexual or a child molester is ok, because I know the damage it caused me and them. I've had gay friends and I know the emotional wrecks they really are. The same goes for fornicators and thieves etc. The same goes for just about all prisoners. I used to have a prison ministry and saw that just about all of them have emotional problems that can be solved by the love of God. They need help, all of them. They need God's love to change their lives, but the carnal mind cannot see this, the mind that knows not Christ or chooses not to believe in Him.

Bottom line: wickedness is getting and will get worse because Satan knows he has but a short time and sin and its fruit cannot be uprooted till the coming of Jesus. The harvest will produce some of the grossest wickedness this world has seen. But, the harvest will ALSO produce the greatest love this world has ever seen.

Norman

[Amelia]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

In talking to my wife afterwards, the wives got into much more detail about "secrets" than us husbands did

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I can understand the women getting into the minutiae of details but why not the men? Why are you guys so afraid to talk about sex and yourselves?

[bevin]

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I cannot for one moment let some one like that think that being gay, homosexual or a child molester is ok, because I know the damage it caused me and them.

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Why are you equating homosexuality with child molestation?

You may as well put "christian" in that sentence instead, because many child molestors were raised as, and are practising, christians.

Your argument is simply based on the biases that you were raised with - fortunately the younger generation is beginning to see those biases for the irrational prejudices that they are.

/Bevin

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Bevin,

You missed my point when I said gays, homosexuals and child molesters. I did not exclude professed Christian or anyone else. What you do determines what you are not what you call yourself.

The child molester that molested me was a homosexual. All gays, homosexuals and child molesters have emotional problems and have sexual perversion controlling them, that is not my idea, it's in the Bible. Again I don't condemn, but am not in favor of letting them or anyone think that living an ungodly life is ok. If we do that than how can they know that they need Christ. You seem to be against what I wrote and I'm offering up a solution. (did you read what I wrote or skim through it?)

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"Your argument is simply based on the biases that you were raised with - fortunately the younger generation is beginning to see those biases for the irrational prejudices that they are."

You have no clue how I was raised but I can tell you I wasn't raised an SDA. I was a young kid just wanting what was real no BS. That's how I try to live my life now. I hated phonies and know what kids today want. (All human hearts cry out for God and His love.)

But just because there are phonies it doesn't mean you throw out the truth. God's statements about homosexuals, gays and child molestors is true and anyone who lives contrary to God's will cannot inherit the kingdom of God. Forget the reasons the bigots give, but why does God say that? Because when someone acts like this they will never desire to find God unless they want to change. (So that God, by condemning this behavior is seeking to tell the offender, if you want to experience my love, which you desparately do, you must stop following your flesh and seek my Spirit.) If they seek God and think that God accepts them the way they are without wanting to change, they are not going to experience the power of God to change them, they deceive themselves.

There is no need for anger or bigotry when relating this message to unbelievers. When Christ is formed within the message of love will convert those who accept it no matter what they are.

Norman

[Robert]

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Bravus said:

God wants us to have great, mind-blowing sex. God does not hate sex.

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I can't find that in the Bible....Sex is not pure as it was before the fall, yet God permits it within marriage.

Really sex, besides for procreation, is a weakness. Of course Paul is speaking of after the fall:

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Now to the unmarried and the widows I say: It is good for them to stay unmarried, as I am. But

if they cannot control themselves

, they should marry, for it is better to marry than to burn with passion.

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But besides sex within the boundaries of marriage, all other sexual expression is a perversion. The only solution is a persistent relationship with Christ. He takes people where they are at and matures them....

[Bravus]

That, frankly, seems pathological to me: the idea that sex is merely 'allowed' but is not God's ideal. (And, to be frank again, it seems to me that Paul, who stated that that idea was only his own opinion, not something from God, was displaying his own pathology when he said that.)