Sexual immorality abounds

[Neil D]

Robert,

The last 6 somths, I have been working in 3 non-SDA hospitals regularly and several small non-SDA hospitals....If what you say is true, the women would be of normal size or thinner, since men are not prone to fat/plump women. All the nurses would be tripping over the single doctors to get noticed....

I ain't seeing it.

That's not to say the guys don't appreciate a beautiful woman/nurse/female respiratory/physical therapist. In all departments men do....but the women are not getting noticed to get married or shack up with some rich dude/professional.

Sorry, but it ain't happening in that enviroment...at least, not in the implied porportions that you are insisting ....

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Friend, I'm glad you brought Romans 7 up. I will show you using the Bible what that means and maybe we can live the lives God Has planned for us.

Paul is not stating in Romans 7: 14 - 25 that this is his current experience but rather the this is in him (and all of us.) In verse 24 he exclaims, "O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death? " He has just finished describing what this body of death is in verses 14- 23. Now in verse 25 he give us the solution to the problem. "I thank God through Jesus Christ our Lord. So then with the mind I myself serve the law of God; but with the flesh the law of sin."

Also note the disclaimer in verse 18 "For I know that in me (that is, in my flesh,) dwelleth no good thing: for to will is present with me; but how to perform that which is good I find not." Paul is telling us that in my flesh there is no good thing. In verse 25 he is stating that he has experienced the power of the Spirit by serving the law of God with his mind, not the flesh. Read through to Rom 8:5 For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6 For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8 So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

In verses 7:14-24 Paul is describing a carnal minded person and in verse 8:7 he tells that the person who he described in verses 7:14-24 is not subject to the law of God and cannot be subject to the law of God. This is off topic but I just wanted you to understand what Paul is talking about here.

When we understand what God wants to do in and through us we will have a much different experience than we are now having. The temptations that we now experience will no longer be there. We will have a different type of temptation and we won't be drawn or tempted by our former lusts.

(This is statement is for everyone)If you are living your life and you are continually being tempted by the same things you need to ask God to help you see what Christ has done for you on the cross and what He is doing for you now in the Holiest of all. Rom 6:11 "Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord. 12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey it in the lusts thereof. 13 Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. 14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace." If we want to see a change in our lives we must ask God to help us understand what Power is available to us.

I read this today and think it's a very fitting statement from EGW. (I don't like to quote her because I'd rather find things in the Bible but I think this will help us)

John says, "The light"--Christ--"shineth in darkness," that is, in the world, "and the darkness comprehended it not. . . . But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." The reason why the unbelieving world are not saved is that they do not choose to be enlightened. The old nature, born of blood and the will of the flesh, cannot inherit the kingdom of God. The old ways, the hereditary tendencies, the former habits, must be given up; for grace is not inherited. The new birth consists in having new motives, new tastes, new tendencies. Those who are begotten unto a new life by the Holy Spirit, have become partakers of the divine nature, and in all their habits and practices, they will give evidence of their relationship to Christ. When men who claim to be Christians retain all their natural defects of character and disposition, in what does their position differ from that of the worldling? They do not appreciate the truth as a sanctifier, a refiner. They have not been born again.

I hope this helps.

Norman

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Bevin, Bevin, Bevin,

ok here it is, there are different degrees of sin and law-breaking in the Bible. I am trying to reply to Gregory and have stated in my earlier replies that I am not excluding any sin or transgression but at this time we are dealing with this topic. But if you must know why,

Lev 20:13

(CEV) It's disgusting for men to have sex with one another, and those who do will be put to death, just as they deserve.

(GNB) If a man has sexual relations with another man, they have done a disgusting thing, and both shall be put to death. They are responsible for their own death.

(GW) When a man has sexual intercourse with another man as with a woman, both men are doing something disgusting and must be put to death. They deserve to die.

(JPS) And if a man lie with mankind, as with womankind, both of them have committed abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

(KJV) If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

(LITV) And a man who lies with a male as one lies with a woman, both of them have done a detestable thing, dying they shall die; their blood shall be on them.

(YLT) `And a man who lieth with a male as one lieth with a woman; abomination both of them have done; they are certainly put to death; their blood is on them.

Abomination: Properly something disgusting, (morally), that is (as noun) an abhorrence especially idolatry or (concretely) an idol – abomination (custom thing) abomination

Hebrew dictionary.

Bevin it is not an abomination to pick up sticks on the Sabbath and it is not an abomination to commit adultery. We are dealing with something here that God states is an abomination. This is not my idea that I'm tossing out.

You sound bitter as though you need to forgive someone. Have you been hurt by a church member? Let me know if we can pray for you at family worship time. Pray for me too.

Sincerely,

Norman

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Gregory,

I do understand what you're saying. You are say that a man may be tempted to lust after a woman or a man may be tempted to lust after a man. You are saying to me that this is not a choice but that we are born that way. I am saying that it is natural for a man to lust after a woman but not lawful. I am also saying that it is unnatural for a man to lust after a man and it is not lawful and an abomination to God. It is a choice to do this. I am saying that it is a sin for a man to lust after another man when he has no control even if he has no control, he will be lost unless he find Christ and gives His life over to Him and is completely changed.

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I have a 50+ YO friend who began smoking as a teen. He has quite several times, but has not smoked in more than a decade. He tells me that everyday his body tells him that it wants a cigarette. Everyday he tells his body No. That desire is not sin. Temptation is not sin. Choices that people make, may be sin.

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Your friend must be born again. I tell you this from experience and from what I have read. I used to drink and was addicted to it. The reason was that since I was a child I was looking for something to fill in the void that sin created and what my mother did in her drinking that left me feeling abandoned. As I grew I found new and more fulfilling things to do that helped me to feel loved, accepted and fulfilled. I tried everything I thought would help, even religion didn't help. But one day I met my God and Father of the Lord Jesus Christ and my life changed. I found the One that I was looking for and never knew it. Now I had no desire to drink at all, none! Why because when I was born again I was fulfilled. I was no longer tempted with drinking at all.

This is what God is looking to do in all our lives and likewise the homosexual needs God in order to be changed and to have those sinful unnatural, desires removed from him. Then we must continue to grow and walk in the Lord. The day we stop doing that is the day that Satan will try to tell us that we are not a new creature and we will tend to believe him. He will press in on us with his lies but we must realize that we are dead and not give in to his lies. We are victors living in a defeatist mentality if we give in. Let's not do that but claim victory in Christ.

Here's the statement that I just posted above it's fitting here as well. John says, "The light"--Christ--"shineth in darkness," that is, in the world, "and the darkness comprehended it not. . . . But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God." The reason why the unbelieving world are not saved is that they do not choose to be enlightened. The old nature, born of blood and the will of the flesh, cannot inherit the kingdom of God. The old ways, the hereditary tendencies, the former habits, must be given up; for grace is not inherited. The new birth consists in having new motives, new tastes, new tendencies. Those who are begotten unto a new life by the Holy Spirit, have become partakers of the divine nature, and in all their habits and practices, they will give evidence of their relationship to Christ. When men who claim to be Christians retain all their natural defects of character and disposition, in what does their position differ from that of the worldling? They do not appreciate the truth as a sanctifier, a refiner. They have not been born again.

Note that hereditary tendencies must be given up which means a choice.

Norman

[Bravus]

It comes down to approaches to Biblical interpretation, in the final analysis. Is it possible for the Bible writers to be in error about God's character and will, based on their own cultural prejudices? If not, then we have to take all of these texts literally. If so, then we need to do a little more work in understanding the fullness of God's character, based on the whole of the Bible rather than on proof-texting. We also need to try to disentangle God's will from our own cultural prejudices.

If we say that every text in the Bible is inspired and reflects the fullness of God's character, then why do we not continue to stone people to death? Why do we believe 'an eye for an eye' is wrong now? I believe God's revelation of Himself was progressive as culture progressed - and can continue to progress beyond 400 AD.

I recognise that that has the hazards of rationalisation, and of falling into the cultural prejudices of our own time. But, since, for example, Paul takes the precaution of indicating what is a message from God and what is aprivate message from him, we should be willing to take him at his word.

Rob, you're coming across in these threads as someone who has a low and negative perspective on women yourself. That's causing you to emphasise texts that can be seen as supporting that low estimation.

I recognise that, on the other hand, my life has been improved immensely by my friendship, love and partnership with Sue, and I love and respect my wife, daughters and female co-workers and friends. (And that has led to my own biases.)

I believe God made humans male and female for excellent reasons of His own, and that he wants both sexes to love and respect each other. As has been pointed out in this thread, marriage was instituted before the Fall, not after, and was part of God's original plan for this world, before sin came in.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Bravus,

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It comes down to approaches to Biblical interpretation, in the final analysis. Is it possible for the Bible writers to be in error about God's character and will, based on their own cultural prejudices?

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If we could divorce Biblical interpretation from the studies of pyschology and physiology I might agree. But we have to take these into consideration as well. In other words, can we find biblical truth on this topic in the studying of psychology? I think that bibical truth will be mirrored in the true sciences. I don't have a lot if time right now (Church business meeting) but would like to try to explain this futher later. Got to run mate,

ps. we no longer stone people because that was nailed to the cross, it was against us. Imagine the pressure of having to live by certain laws and then being stoned to death if you didn't. Pressure? Without faith, you better believe it.

Norman

[bevin]

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Bevin, Bevin, Bevin,

ok here it is, there are different degrees of sin and law-breaking in the Bible. I am trying to reply to Gregory and have stated in my earlier replies that I am not excluding any sin or transgression but at this time we are dealing with this topic. But if you must know why,

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Norman, Norman, Norman

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Lev 11:10. And all that have not fins and scales in the seas, and in the rivers, of all that move in the waters, and of any living thing which is in the waters, they shall be an [:"red"]abomination[/] unto you:

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but you aren't proposing eating shellfish should be illegal

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Deut 7:25. The graven images of their gods shall ye burn with fire: thou shalt not desire the silver or gold that is on them, nor take it unto thee, lest thou be snared therein: for it is an abomination to the Lord thy God.

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but you aren't proposing making Catholic crosses illegal

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Deut 13:13. Certain men, the children of Belial, are gone out from among you, and have withdrawn the inhabitants of their city, saying, Let us go and serve other gods, which ye have not known;

14. Then shalt thou inquire, and make search, and ask diligently; and, behold, if it be truth, and the thing certain, that such abomination is wrought among you;

15. Thou shalt surely smite the inhabitants of that city with the edge of the sword, destroying it utterly, and all that is therein, and the cattle thereof, with the edge of the sword.

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But you aren't proposing making Buddhism illegal

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Deuteronomy 17:1. Thou shalt not sacrifice unto the Lord thy God any bullock, or sheep, wherein is blemish, or any evilfavouredness: for that is an abomination unto the Lord thy God.

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But you aren't proposing making improper sacrifices illegal

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Deuth 22:5. The woman shall not wear that which pertaineth unto a man, neither shall a man put on a woman's garment: for all that do so are abomination unto the Lord thy God.

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but you aren't proposing making cross-dressing illegal

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Deut 23:18. Thou shalt not bring the hire of a whore, or the price of a dog, into the house of the Lord thy God for any vow: for even both these are abomination unto the Lord thy God.

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Deuth 24:2. And when she is departed out of his house, she may go and be another man's wife.

3. And if the latter husband hate her, and write her a bill of divorcement, and giveth it in her hand, and sendeth her out of his house; or if the latter husband die, which took her to be his wife;

4. Her former husband, which sent her away, may not take her again to be his wife, after that she is defiled; for that is abomination before the Lord: and thou shalt not cause the land to sin, which the Lord thy God giveth thee for an inheritance.

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But you aren't proposing changing the divorce and remarriage laws

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Deut 27:15. Cursed be the man that maketh any graven or molten image, an abomination unto the Lord, the work of the hands of the craftsman, and putteth it in a secret place. And all the people shall answer and say, Amen.

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Now, let us have a closer look at your text

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9. For every one that curseth his father or his mother shall be surely put to death: he hath cursed his father or his mother; his blood shall be upon him.

10. And the man that committeth adultery with another man's wife, even he that committeth adultery with his neighbour's wife, the adulterer and the adulteress shall surely be put to death.

11. And the man that lieth with his father's wife hath uncovered his father's nakedness: both of them shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

12. And if a man lie with his daughter in law, both of them shall surely be put to death: they have wrought confusion; their blood shall be upon them.

13. If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

14. And if a man take a wife and her mother, it is wickedness: they shall be burnt with fire, both he and they; that there be no wickedness among you.

15. And if a man lie with a beast, he shall surely be put to death: and ye shall slay the beast.

16. And if a woman approach unto any beast, and lie down thereto, thou shalt kill the woman, and the beast: they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.

17. And if a man shall take his sister, his father's daughter, or his mother's daughter, and see her nakedness, and she see his nakedness; it is a wicked thing; and they shall be cut off in the sight of their people: he hath uncovered his sister's nakedness; he shall bear his iniquity.

18. And if a man shall lie with a woman having her sickness, and shall uncover her nakedness; he hath discovered her fountain, and she hath uncovered the fountain of her blood: and both of them shall be cut off from among their people.

19. And thou shalt not uncover the nakedness of thy mother's sister, nor of thy father's sister: for he uncovereth his near kin: they shall bear their iniquity.

20. And if a man shall lie with his uncle's wife, he hath uncovered his uncle's nakedness: they shall bear their sin; they shall die childless.

21. And if a man shall take his brother's wife, it is an unclean thing: he hath uncovered his brother's nakedness; they shall be childless.

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Heck, you REALLY got selective pulling that one item out of that list, didn't you.

/Bevin

[Dr. Shane]

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If we say that every text in the Bible is inspired and reflects the fullness of God's character, then why do we not continue to stone people to death?

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God commanded stoning offenders when He governed Israel through prophets. When Israel decided they wanted a king like other nations, they choose a human leader.

[Fitz]

I need some suggestoins. How do deal with a known homosexual who comes to church and make sexual statements about the little boys.

PS This is a real case.

[Bravus]

Let us please clearly divide homosexuality from pedophilia. The two are quite different. A large scale study showed that pedophiles, including those who target young boys, are virtually always identified as straight adult males. If this person is making sexual statements about minors that is evidence of pedophilia, not homosexuality, and should be treated with extreme seriousness.

[Neil D]

As a suggestion Bravus, we need to know where to go for more information on this matter. Any suggestions?

[Bravus]

Good point, Neil. I can't lay my hands ont he specific study I read a while ago that made this point: I'll keep looking. The issue is complicated by the fact that some papers talk about same-sex pedophilia as 'homosexual pedophilia', which is unhelpful.

More soon...

[Bravus]

Found this one, which is irrelevant to my point but... interesting: http://www.nisbett.com/prophecy/eti/pdf/eti_55.pdf

Enjoy.

[Bravus]

Here's a useful little review...

http://www.fallwell.com/pedophilia.html

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Bevin, Bevin, Bevin.

(Please don't misunderstand me here I don't know you but I consider you my brother and it put a smile on my face when you started your reply as I started mine.)

You used the word "Illegal" but the Bible uses the word Abomination. Of course I'm not stating those things because I am disussing one topic, homosexuality.

I have started another thread to deal with this subject, Abomination. I used some of your examples to get it started. You can add more.

N N Norman

[Robert]

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Neil D said:

but it ain't happening in that enviroment...at least, not in the implied porportions that you are insisting ....

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Good...I would hope that they are tending to the sick and not their libidos.

Rob

[Robert]

Norm,

I understand your point...but be careful with the quotes from the O.T. on stoning, etc....These were Old Covenant regulations. Even the guy picking up sticks on the Sabbath was stoned (and I don't mean he was smoking weed)

You see the Jews had been in Egyptian bondage for years. They were accustom to these legalistic religions...based on appeasing an angry god through works. That is why at Mount Sinai they entered the Old Covenant. They essentially said, "God, you give us your law and will keep it. In return you owe us heaven."

So God, because of their stubborn hearts, said..."Okay, but in order to gain eternal life you must obey my laws...but if you fail, even in one point, then you must die!" Hence the Old Covenant of "obey and live, disobey and die."

Now under the NC we have salvation full and complete "in Jesus Christ"....In Him we have answered the law completely. When we accept His righteousness we begin to change....It is a gradual change. He works with us one sin at a time....Not to save us, but because He wants us to experience victory over the flesh as we mature in our walk with Him.

Let's say I have homosexual tendencies (which I DO NOT), but for the argument...let's say I do. Now without God in my life I can do nothing but what my nature wants....Then one day I hear the gospel....I hear about the love of God in Christ Jesus. So I believe...I start growing and then I realize that my lifestyle is outside God's will because He has my own interests at heart. So I try to leave my lifestyle behind....Some days the bear gets me, some days, through Christ, I get the bear.

God looks at the intent...he looks at our heart's desires. So I am not condemned every time I fall back into this sin...but, If I practice that sin...if I tell God, "Look this ain't sin and I don't need your help in this area"...well, sooner or later I am going to reject my need of Christ's righteousness. So a practiced sin, such as living the homosexual lifestyle without repentance, will eventually cause my heart to harden....I will eventually "fall away".....

That's my understanding....So living that lifestyle is sin, but I'll leave the work of convicting to God (not that you are not).

Rob

[Robert]

Gal 5:19 Now the deeds of the flesh are evident, which are: immorality, impurity, sensuality, .... and things like these, of which I forewarn you just as I have forewarned you that those who practice such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God.

Romans 1:28 28 And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper, 29 being filled with all unrighteousness,... 32 and, although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death, they not only do the same, but also give hearty approval to those who practice them.

It's one thing to have a besetting sin, such as the homosexual lifestyle, but it is another thing to condone it...to practice it. Remember that a practiced sin is an unconfessed sin.

Rob

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Robert,

I was using the example that a person who was caught in a homosexual act even one time (Gregory said that he didn't consider a prisoner having sex with a man in prison one time to be a homosexual) in the OT a worthy of stoning in order to show how God see such acts. I believe that God still views this the same, only today we don't stone people.

Here's my point:

God has a law and it is a valid law and it has a wonderful purpose. It is meant to show sinners their ungodly life and how messed up it is and reveal to us our need of a Savior.

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.It is a gradual change. He works with us one sin at a time....Not to save us, but because He wants us to experience victory over the flesh as we mature in our walk with Him.

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Once we truly see our need of a Savior and decide to accept Him as Lord and Savior there is a fundamental change that takes place. This is when the Holy Spirit comes into our life and the selfishness that governed our thoughts and feelings is gone and replaced by a selflessness that comes from the indwelling of the Holy Spirit. The fruit of the Spirit in its fulness is seen. This is true conversion and unfortunately we do not see this today because people are being taught some other gospel which teaches incremental change of motivation as opposed to biblical instantaneous change of motivation (Love).

I am not saying that we know all things at once or that we become perfect at that moment and no longer need to grow. Nor am I saying that we can never be temtped or that we can never sin. What I am saying is that we should be experiencing the power of the Gospel just as those who were healed by Jesus did, they were instantly healed in body and spirit.

Now if someone who is gay doesn't know about God's law or that his/her life is an abomination to God, it doesn't mean that just because he/she doesn't know that it isn't so.

Now let's look at the different reaction to the news that this is an abomination to God to a gay who believes it's not his fault and one who believes it is his choice. The one who believes its not his fault will tend to think, "wow this is serious, let me see if I can find something in the Bible to prove that I was born this way and I can't be held responsible." The one who see this as a choice is convicted and if he's honest he will asked for forgiveness and seek God for change. This is one reason I believe it is a choice, a mental disorder or demon posession.

Also (according to Paul) it is an unnatural act that comes about by rejecting God. At some point in our lives we are tempted to do certain things and what we allow to be ok will determine how we live our lives. This can happen and does happen at a young age. At the same time that we are tempted God speaks to us through our angels (we all have at least one from birth) and trys to woo us into doing what is right. There is no point in our lives where we are without the protection of God through His angels. At every point in our life we are accepting or rejecting God.

Having said that you can understand why I say that gays choose to be gay.

I hope this is clear I'm having a hard time focusing this AM.

Norman

[Amelia]

</font><blockquote><font class="small">Quote:</font><hr />

Gregory said that he didn't consider a prisoner having sex with a man in prison one time to be a homosexual

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He's right, it's not homosexual when between two straight men. It's sodomy.

[Gregory Matthews]

Re: "Now if someone who is gay doesn't know about God's law or that his/her life is an abomination to God, it doesn't mean that just because he/she doesn't know that it isn't so."

Norman, Norman, I still have failed to communicate with you.

I wonder if you really understand homosexuality.

Homosexuality is defined by a gender orientation, and not by actions.

I have personally known, and worked with homosexuals who were celebate. In what way would you say that the life of a celebate homosexual was an abomination to God?

For whatever reason, and I do not judge the reason, I suspect that you are never going to understand the difference that I make between orientation and actions.

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Greg,

I know what it is and what you're saying. What you say is what you think and believe, but that doesn't make what you believe right. I don't agree with you in your definition.

With all respect, You fail to understand that a choice has been made at some point in the gay person's life. God's Spirit has been at work with every soul since birth and what I read in the Bible tells me that this condition has occured because at some point they have rejected God. That doesn't have to be a religious call either.

That's how I understand this and to me anything less is really not doing the gay person any good. It leaves them thinking that they're helpless and enslaved even if they don't practice. That just doesn't make sense to me.

Norman

[Norman Byers, N.D.]

Hi Amelia,

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He's right, it's not homosexual when between two straight men. It's sodomy.

[Dr. Shane]

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Homosexuality is defined by a gender orientation, and not by actions.

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I do disagree at this point. The ex-homosexual community that I worked with would say homosexuality is defined by gender orientation AND behavior. A thief cannot be a theif until s/he steals. An alcoholic cannot be an alcoholic until s/he drinks. A liar cannot be a liar until s/he lies. And all of these can be delivered from these condidtions.

I am a recovered alcoholic. Now that doesn't mean I can drink alcohol like nonalcoholics. It means I no longer suffer from the condition/disease/sin. Many homosexuals can recover from homosexuality but like alcoholism, it is a struggle often met with several failures along the way. A "recovered" or "reformed" homosexual doesn't nessasarally mean they have become a hetrosexual. They may simply no longer be drawn to the same sex and may remain celebrate.

When we say it is the orientation itself (and not combined with behavior) that makes a person homosexual, we label those with homosexual temptations that have not acted on them. We also give a life-long label to those that have become involved in the lifestyle.

[Gregory Matthews]

Re: "Bible tells me that this condition has occured because at some point they have rejected God."

The early chapters of Genesis tell us why sin exists in this world--those early humand rejected God.

The result of that is that individual humans have the consequences of sin in their lives, for which they did not make a personal choice.

Gender oritentation is not an individual choice. It is fixed, and it is not changed. Yes, people can change their outward expression, but the inward reality remains the same.

I have worked very closely with homosexuals. A minority of them were celebate, and a very small minority. Some of those celebate homosexuals were of SDA background. But, all considered the celebate ones to be homosexuals. None considerd they to no longer be homosexual after they became celebate.

We can debate the orgion of homosexuality. Is it genetic? Is is to to events that took place during pregnancy? Is it due to early childhood experiences? I am not going to debate these issues. We do not know a lot about homosexuality. I am aware that some of the research is flawed.

But, the fact remains that gender orientation is not a personal choice. That is a reality.

I have taken studies in alcoholism. But, I am not an expert. Yet, I know that there is an approach to alcoholism that telle people that alcoholism is an inward condition, and not related to the consumption of alcohol. A person may have stopped drinking. But, that person remains an alcoholic. I have a close relative who fits this catagory. She has been dry for years, yet, today she is an alcoholic.

In the same sense, a homosexual in one due to gender orientation, and not due to outward action.

It is not so much the homosexual community that is divided on this point. Rather it is more the people who work with homosexuals who differ. As stated in the book I referenced, those who work with homosexuals generally fall into four camps. I take the posiiton that I take due to mu personal experience with homosesuals, and secondarly due to my training. However, that book suggests that the SDA position is quite close to the position that I have taken, if not that which I have taken.