Ellen White & the Trinity

October 30, 2014

"There is one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus."

Doesn't say between man and God - says "between God and man".

Only ONE mediator.

Christ, our Mediator, and the Holy Spirit are constantly interceding in man's behalf, but the Spirit pleads not for us as does Christ who presents His blood, shed from the foundation of the world; the Spirit works upon our hearts, drawing out prayers and penitence, praise and thanksgiving.
--Manuscript 50, 1900 (SDA Bible Commentary, vol. 6, on Rom. 8:26, 34).

This quote has God (in the person of the Holy Spirit) pleading DIRECTLY with man. And Christ pleading with the Father.

1. This makes the HS the Mediator.

2. If the 3 are of one mind, then why would one part of God, need to plead with another part of God? Doesn't make sense.

I believe that the divine powers of omnipresence and omniscience were returned to Christ when He was glorified by His Father, AFTER His ascension. This enabled Him to be "with" His disciples on earth, and to communicate with them.

"So also it is written, 'The first man, Adam, became a living soul.' The last Adam became a life-giving spirit. (1Co 15:45 NAS)

The "last Adam" - that's Jesus Christ! He became "a life-giving spirit" - the Holy Spirit Comforter.

Jesus is my Comforter.

Respectfully

Rachel Cory

Prophecy Viewpoint

November 1, 2014

Jesus said: "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. 17"For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him."

Is this "God" mentioned by Jesus one person only or one unity of three co-eternal persons?

Jesus said: "This is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent."

Is this "God" mentioned by Jesus one person only or one unity of three co-eternal persons?

Jesus said: "No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him."

Is this "God" mentioned by Jesus one person only or one unity of three co-eternal persons?

Did Jesus ever teach us to worship or pray to a "GOD" that is a unity of three co-eternal persons - God the Father, God the Son and God the holy spirit?

November 19, 2014

Background:

In 303 AD, the Emperor Diocletian ordered all sacred Scriptures of the Christians to be burned. Certainly many original manuscripts and copies of those originals were destroyed. Shortly afterward the Emperor Constantine halted persecution of Christians and issued the Edict of Milan (313) which declared freedom of worship for citizens of the Roman Empire.

Eusebius, who lived from 270 to 360 (aprox) was historian and Bishop of Caesarea. The Christian "church" grew so rapidly that the Emperor requested Eusebius supervise the copying of fifty new copies of the Scripture for the churches of Constantinople. We must remember that these new copies were commissioned by Emperor Constantine, who may have influenced the process.

Eusebius lived, till about 40 years of age in great intimacy with the martyr Pamphilus, a learned and devout man of Caesurae, and founder of an extensive library there, from which Eusebius derived his vast store of learning. (Dr. Wescott, in "General Survey," page 108) Eusebius was a master of the Greek.

In his advanced age, Eusebius quoted the Trinitarian baptismal formula twice, but by this time he had lived under the domination of the Emperor Constantine for many years. Prior to this, he quotes Matthew 28:19 using the singular ("in My name") some 18 times.

1. From "The Demonstratio Evangelica" by Eusebius, who quotes Matthew 28:19:

"With one word and voice He said to His disciples, 'Go, and make disciples of all nations in My name, teaching them to observe all things whatsoever I have commanded you.'"

"For he did not enjoin them 'to make disciples of all the nations' simply and without qualification, but with the essential addition 'in his name'. For so great was the virtue attaching to his appellation that the Apostle says, 'YHWH bestowed on him the name above every name, that in the name of Yehushua every knee shall bow of things in heaven and on earth and under the earth.' It was right therefore that he should emphasize the virtue of the power residing in his name but hidden from the many, and therefore say to his Apostles, 'Go ye, and make disciples of all the nations in my name'" (col. 240, p. 136).

2. From "The Catholic Encyclopedia, Vol II, page 263:

"The baptismal formula was changed from the name of Jesus Christ to the words Father, Son, and Holy Spirit by the Catholic church in the second century."

The second century (100 to 200) came before Constantine legalized Christianity in 313, and set up the "catholic" church within the Roman Empire with himself as head. It is difficult to know for certain just what "the church" did during those years of persecution. We have only limited writings of the early church "fathers", and no surviving copies of the NT Scriptures from the first or second centuries.

3. Here is a link to a very interesting article on facebook: under "Matthew 28:19 forgery.

https://www.facebook.com/notes/church-of-the-living-el-%D7%99%D7%94%D7%95%D7%94-jerusalem/the-matthew-2819-forgery/607126512641911

Respectfully,

Rachel Cory

Prophecy Viewpoint

November 26, 2014

In my understanding, most students of Ellen White's writings would agree that her personal views of God, God's nature and the Trinity changed over a period of time. That should be expected. God uses humans. God's use of humans does not immediately give them a sense of total truth. In looking at the personal views of Ellen White we can see that her views of spiritual issues changed in a number of aspects over a period of time.

While, in my understanding, most students of Ellen White would agree that her views on God, as I stated above, changed over a period of time, they would neither totally agree as to the extent to which they changed, nor to the manner in which they changed.

John Skrzypaszek, writing in the book that I have cited (Biblical . . . Studies on the Trinity) on pages 201 and 214 - 217, suggests a progressive development of EGWs understanding from 1850 - 1906. [NOTE: Scattered through that book, other writers make some other comments on this.] I do not suggest that Skrzypaszek has the entire picture on this aspect. I think that there may be more to be said. However, his comments are of interest on this subject. One of the reasons for this is that his focus was on J. H. Kellogg, rather than EGW.

I will suggest that the chapter (pages 165 - 179) in that book written by Kai Arasola, is of interest in this subject. I like what he said about the Connexionists. I will suggest that his footnote (# 3) as to the works of Jerry Moon and Allen Stump will be of value in understanding EGWs understanding of the Trinity.

October 24, 2015

Please don't take this wrong, but there is only one way to say this.....

Dennis Kean said...." that God meant to say”........” What God was trying to say”....this has to be the most arrogant comments I have EVER read on these forums......how dare anyone even attempt to assume to know what God, the Lord, Creator of all, “meant” to say.....wow, this is just shocking and sad....

October 29, 2015

On 11/25/2014, 9:19:16, jackson said:

Rachel,

I was not aware that Mrs White had published any early statements on the makeup of the Godhead that differed from her later statements. I know many Adventist leaders had differing views on this subject and some changed their minds later, but I could not find where Mars White had a change of heart on this subject. Could you direct me to where I might find her earlier views on the Godhead.

I copied these comments over from the thread on John 3:16, page 3.

Here are a few more on the Holy Spirit:

"Christ, in His mediatorial capacity, give to His servants the presence of the Holy Spirit." Testimonies for the Church Volume Seven, pg30.

Christ gives the Spirit.

"He [Christ] now claimed the gift of the Spirit, that He might pour it out upon His disciples (SW Nov. 28, 1905) Bible Commentary Vol. 6, pg 1055, pr.2

Christ gives the Spirit.

"All are to remember that they are in the presence of Christ, and in no case are they to utter a word that will grieve the Holy Spirit." Notebook Leaflets from the Elmshaven Library, Vol. 1, pg 46, pr.1 (December 10, 1905).

The Holy Spirit IS "the presence of Christ" - NOT a third divine being.

Here is one by Prescott. I totally agree with his statement.

"Plainly the coming of the Comforter is the coming of Jesus in the Spirit. . . . We have a Comforter or Advocate in Heaven, Jesus Christ the righteous, there present in a bodily form, just as he ascended from this earth, and we have in our hearts the same Jesus in the Spirit, the other Comforter who is just Jesus' other self." Prescott 1928 Radio Broadcast

I have many more Jackson. I searched the EGW database for years, collecting every statement I could find, on the Father and Son, and later (1900 to 1910) the "three beings".

What I found was a CLEAR CHANGE from two divine beings, to three divine beings.

In Scripture, there are only TWO beings - Father and Son. What I found in Ellen White's writings caused me to realize that she was NOT infallible, and HAD made mistakes.

Quote

October 29, 2015

Having read this entire thread, I cannot offer any support or criticism on anything. We all have to wrap our heads around the concept of trinity, triune, divine trio, or whatever in whatever way we can. Three distinct persons in the Godhead, one Person who manifests Himself 3 different ways, only 2 persons in God; and the HS simply being the manifest power of God - which is right? I have pondered this for 65 years and still don't have a clear answer.

I have heard God described as a pie sliced into 3 pieces. All the pie filling runs together when the pie is cut. So you have 3 slices in one pie. If one piece is removed, is it still a "pie"?

When I pray, I sometimes find myself praying to "God", sometimes to the Father, sometimes to Jesus, and sometimes I ask the Spirit for guidance. Sometimes I ask the Father to send the Spirit for guidance. Sometimes I thank Jesus for His sacrifice. Regardless, I feel that I am praying to God. Sometimes I ask God to tell me how to pray because I get confused about who to pray to and who not to pray to.

The Bibles seems to indicate that we pray only to the Father. If that's true, how do we worship Jesus without praying to Him? When the man who received His sight worshipped jesus, I'll bet he was talking directly to Him.

October 29, 2015

On 11/25/2014, 9:19:16, jackson said:

Rachel,

I was not aware that Mrs White had published any early statements on the makeup of the Godhead that differed from her later statements. I know many Adventist leaders had differing views on this subject and some changed their minds later, but I could not find where Mars White had a change of heart on this subject. Could you direct me to where I might find her earlier views on the Godhead.

First some quotations that I can agree with: "By Christ the work upon which the fulfillment of God's purpose rests was accomplished. This was the agreement in the councils of the Godhead. The Father purposed in counsel with His Son, that he human family should be tested and proved to see whether they would be allured by the temptations of Satan, or whether they would make Christ their righteousness, keeping God's commandments, and live." Manuscript Releases volume Twenty-one pg. 54 1898

I have found no statement concerning the "councils of the Godhead" or the "covenant of peace" which includes another being called The Spirit.

"(John 3:16 quoted) One wonderful in counsel was our Helper. The Son of God left the heavenly courts and gave His life as the propitiation for sin. He came to declare that altho the agencies of evil had created rebellion in heaven, and sin had entered the universe of God, yet Christ and the Father would redeem the fallen race." Signs of the Times, Feb 17, 1909, pr 9

"All communication from heaven to earth since Adam's fall has come through Christ." The Kress Collection pg.126

"The Father and Son are pledged to fulfill the terms of the everlasting covenant." (Joh 3:16 quoted) Christ was not alone in making his great sacrifice. It was the fulfilment of the covenatn made between him and his Father before the foundation of the world was laid." [no mention of the Spirit also] Youth's Instructor, June 14, 1900, pr.5

"But in counsel with the Father He pledged himself to secure the salvation of every human being. An irrevocable covenant was made between the Father and the Son." [No mention of the Spirit also.] Signs of the Times August 22, 1900, pr.7

"We can no by searching find out God; but he has revealed himself in his Son, who is the brightness of the Father's glory, and the express image of his person...." Youth's Instructor March 22,1900 pr.1

"The plan of salvation devised by the Father and the Son will be a grand success." Signs of the Times June 17, 1903 pr.2

"Before the fall of man, the Son of God had united with his Father in laying the plan of salvation." RandH, Sept 13, 1906, pr.4

"A covenant has been entered into by the Father and by the Son to save the world through Christ." Signs of Times Oct. 10, 1892, pr.1

"Christ, in His mediatorial capacity, gives to His servants the presence of the Holy Spirit." Testimonies for the Church Vol. Seven, pg.30

"God is a spirit; yet He is a personal being, for man was made in His image. As a personal being, God has revealed Himself in His Son. Jesus, the outshining of the Father's glory, 'and the express image of His person' (Hebrews 1:3, was on earth found in fashion as a man." (Manuscript 124, 1903) Education pg131

"'And truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ' All through the Scriptures, the Father and the Son are spoken of as two distinct personages. You will hear men endeavoring to make the Son of God a nonentity. He and the Father are one, but they are two personages. Wrong sentiments regarding this are coming in, and we shall all have to meet them. Review and herald July 13, 1905

"The Father's presence encircled Christ, and nothing befell Him but that which infinite love permitted for the blessing of the world." Ministry of Healing pg 488

"This was the occasion of His ascension and inauguration, a jubilee in heaven. He had ascended on high, leading captivity captive, and He now claimed the gift of the Spirit, that He might pour it out upon His disciples." SDA Bible Commentary Vol. 6, pg1055, pr.2

Christ claimed the GIFT of the Spirit - of His Father. The Spirit is the Spirit OF the Father. The Father is the SOURCE. The Father gave of His Spirit TO His Son - who then pours that Spirit upon us. John the Baptist said of Christ, "HE will baptize you with Spirit and fire." These statements DO NOT mention the involvement of a third divine being.

I'll do another post to show other statements which reflect the change.

October 29, 2015

"The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit receive the believing soul into covenant relation with God." Manuscript Releases Vol. Six pg 163

"(Mat 28:19 quoted) "The three great powers in heaven are witnesses; they are invisible but present." Manuscript Releases 75, 1900, SDA Commentary Vol. 6, 1074

"The work is laid out before every soul that has acknowledged his faith in Jesus Christ by baptism, and has become a receiver of the pledge from the three persons--the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit." Bible Commentary Vol. 6, 1074

"Our sanctification is the work of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit. . . . Then co-operate with the three great powers of heaven who are working in your behalf." Sign of Time, June 19, 1901, SDA Comm. Vol 7, pg 908

"The Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit, the three holy dignitaries of heaven, have declared that they will strengthen men to overcome . . . SDA Commentary Vol. 5, 1110

"three great personal Dignitaries of heaven" Bible Comm. vol. Seven pg 959

"three great powers are pledged to work in his behalf" Sermons and talks pg 321

"three great, infinite powers are unitedly pledged to work in our behalf." Sermons and Talks Vol Two pg 167

"The Godhead was stirred with pity for the race, and the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit gave themselves to the working out of the plan of redemption. In order to fully carry out this plan, it was decided that Christ, the only begotten of God, should give Himself an offering for sin." Australasian Union Conference Record April 1, 1901

Compare this last quote with Sign of Times May 17, 1905 pr.5 "The Father and the Son in consultation decided that Christ must come to the world as a babe . . ." It's almost as if TWO different people were writing.

Marion Davis was underwriter for Mrs White at this time. She would collect earlier statements to use in forming new articles or letters. Mrs. White would fill in any weak places and then sign the document. This is how much of DA was written. This is why the same words and phrases are used over and over.

"There are three living persons of the heavenly trio. In the namem of these three powers, -- the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, those who receive Christ by living faith are baptized . . . " SDA Bible Commentary Volume 7A, pg441

"three great Worthies in heaven -- the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost." Sermons and Talks pg 366, pr.1

"three representatives of heavenly authority" Manuscript Releases Vol. Six, pg 29, pr.3

Almost every one of these quotations is in the context of baptism, and the baptismal formula from the KJV. If Mrs. White had known that the wording had been changed (during the reign of Constantine) from "in My name", I wonder if she would have thought that there were "three persons" of a "heavenly trio".

There are 41 statements published between 1900 and 1910 with the word "three" used to describe the "three heavenly Worthies" or "three heavenly powers" or "three persons" or three Dignitaries". After 1910 there are no more "three" statements. All statements revert to Father and Son only. Mrs White NEVER claimed to have received a special message, or angel visit before her writings introduced "three beings" in 1900.

"In counsel together, the Father and the Son determined that Satan should not be left unchecked to exercise his cruel power upon men." (MS 31, 1911) Manuscript Releases Volume Eighteen pg 345

October 29, 2015

46 minutes ago, JoeMo said:

Having read this entire thread, I cannot offer any support or criticism on anything. We all have to wrap our heads around the concept of trinity, triune, divine trio, or whatever in whatever way we can. Three distinct persons in the Godhead, one Person who manifests Himself 3 different ways, only 2 persons in God; and the HS simply being the manifest power of God - which is right? I have pondered this for 65 years and still don't have a clear answer.

I have heard God described as a pie sliced into 3 pieces. All the pie filling runs together when the pie is cut. So you have 3 slices in one pie. If one piece is removed, is it still a "pie"?

When I pray, I sometimes find myself praying to "God", sometimes to the Father, sometimes to Jesus, and sometimes I ask the Spirit for guidance. Sometimes I ask the Father to send the Spirit for guidance. Sometimes I thank Jesus for His sacrifice. Regardless, I feel that I am praying to God. Sometimes I ask God to tell me how to pray because I get confused about who to pray to and who not to pray to.

The Bibles seems to indicate that we pray only to the Father. If that's true, how do we worship Jesus without praying to Him? When the man who received His sight worshipped jesus, I'll bet he was talking directly to Him.

The Bible has examples of persons worshiping Jesus. Angels were commanded to worship Him.

But there is NO COMMAND to worship the Spirit, or pray to the Spirit, or glorify the Spirit, or sing to the Spirit. ONLY the Father and His begotten Son, are worshiped in Scripture!!

Hebrews 1:6 But when He again brings the firstborn into the world, He says: "Let all the angels of God worship Him." (Heb 1:6 NKJ)

[At the ascension] Luke 24:52 And they worshiped Him, and returned to Jerusalem with great joy," (NKJ)

John 5:23 "that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him. (Joh 5:23 NKJ)

There's NO MENTION of a third divine being in these verses.

Revelation 5:13 And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying: "Blessing and honor and glory and power Be to Him who sits on the throne, And to the Lamb, forever and ever1!" (NKJ)

TWO beings are worshiped here.

Revelation 7:10 They cried out in a loud voice, saying, "Salvation belongs to our God who is seated on the throne, and to the Lamb!" (Rev 7:10 NRS)

October 30, 2015

To clarify and correct my previous post, I personally consider only the Father and Son as "God" (i.e., the only beings to whom we should offer prayer and worship); I view the HS as the manifest power of God; and possibly the spiritual presence of Jesus (referred to as the spirit of Christ in scripture); but I understand how and why many consider the HS a 3rd distinct member of the Godhead.

October 30, 2015

On 10/19/2014, 8:21:48, Guest DennisKean said:

I have an easier question for you, Kevin. How can I UnRegister on this forum? It seems that there is no way to unregister.

Dennis

There's no way out. Once you post, you're sucked in, like a vortex.

October 30, 2015

Rachel,

It looks to me as if you sometimes forget that Jesus, the man, was fully human. That means He needed the Holy Spirit, just as we do. The Bible tells us clearly that the Son of God laid aside His divinity when He came to earth, thus He required the power of God, which was outside of His humanity, to do the miracles He did, just as did the prophets of old and the disciples.

In John 20:22 this is pretty plain. He "breathed" on His disciples and told them to recieve the Holy Spirit. He didn't say He was simply giving them Himself. The other thing I think that you miss out on taking into account is that Jesus was given to the human race forever. He will always be human, and as such, He has laid aside a certain part of His former makeup. He's still part of the Godhead, but He has given up His ability to be in all places at once for no human being can do that. He willingly gave that up for eternity to save us.

October 30, 2015

31 minutes ago, joeb said:

Rachel,

It looks to me as if you sometimes forget that Jesus, the man, was fully human. That means He needed the Holy Spirit, just as we do. The Bible tells us clearly that the Son of God laid aside His divinity when He came to earth, thus He required the power of God, which was outside of His humanity, to do the miracles He did, just as did the prophets of old and the disciples.

In John 20:22 this is pretty plain. He "breathed" on His disciples and told them to recieve the Holy Spirit. He didn't say He was simply giving them Himself. The other thing I think that you miss out on taking into account is that Jesus was given to the human race forever. He will always be human, and as such, He has laid aside a certain part of His former makeup. He's still part of the Godhead, but He has given up His ability to be in all places at once for no human being can do that. He willingly gave that up for eternity to save us.

"He willingly gave that up for eternity to save us."

This blows my mind. You wrote "to save us", but if Jesus decided not to continue to be a human, that wouldn't caused us to be lost, right? So we could just say "Jesus willing gave that up for eternity", and leave it at that.

Blows my mind.

October 30, 2015

47 minutes ago, joeb said:

Rachel,

It looks to me as if you sometimes forget that Jesus, the man, was fully human. That means He needed the Holy Spirit, just as we do. The Bible tells us clearly that the Son of God laid aside His divinity when He came to earth, thus He required the power of God, which was outside of His humanity, to do the miracles He did, just as did the prophets of old and the disciples.

In John 20:22 this is pretty plain. He "breathed" on His disciples and told them to recieve the Holy Spirit. He didn't say He was simply giving them Himself. The other thing I think that you miss out on taking into account is that Jesus was given to the human race forever. He will always be human, and as such, He has laid aside a certain part of His former makeup. He's still part of the Godhead, but He has given up His ability to be in all places at once for no human being can do that. He willingly gave that up for eternity to save us.

Joeb,

I don't think I "forgot" anything, at least in our context of just WHO did the works of Jesus. Let's see who Jesus gave credit to, for His works.

John 14:10 ""the Father who dwells in Me does the works." But THAT would mean that God our Father is not just a divine being who sits on a throne. HE is also Spirit.

Jesus NEVER said, "the Holy Spirit is with me", or "My Father sent the Holy Spirit to be with me." No. He said, "the Father IS WITH ME."

John 16:32 " And yet I am not alone, because the Father is with Me." (NKJ) John 8:29 "And He who sent Me is with Me. The Father has not left Me alone, for I always do those things that please Him." And WHO SENT JESUS. At least 15 verses, just in the Book of John says the FATHER sent Jesus. Never once, did Jesus say the Spirit went Him.

GOD IS SPIRIT - YES - but there is NO COMMAND to worship the Holy Spirit. We are supposed to THANK the Father for the Spirit.

John 4:23 "the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. God is Spirit, and those who worship Him must worship in spirit and truth."

God is NOT just "one who sits on the throne". He is ALSO "spirit". God is able to appear, to HIS created beings, while at the same time HE is omnipresent as "spirit".

So WHO poured out the Holy Spirit?

During Christ's incarnation as a man - living on the earth, His FATHER drew people to Him.

John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day." (NKJ) No mention of a third being - doing the "drawing".

AFTER Jesus ascended and was glorified - with the "glory" He had with the Father, before the world was, THEN Christ's divine powers were restored to Him. How were they restored? They were restored WHEN the Father gave the Spirit to His son - "without measure".

Acts 2:33 "Therefore being exalted to the right hand of God, and have received from the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, He poured out this which you now see and hear."

Jesus RECEIVED the Spirit of His Father - "without measure" - from His FATHER, and then HE (Jesus) poured the Spirit upon His disciples upon the earth.

Which FITS with what John the Baptist said, concerning Christ.

Mark 1:8 "I indeed baptized you with water, but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit." (NKJ)

Matthew 3:11 "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire." (NKJ)

October 30, 2015

PS:

Joeb,

I do AGREE that Jesus became FULLY HUMAN when He incarnated. I agree that Jesus "emptied Himself" of divine power, and became dependent. But - I believe His God powers were restored to Him, when He was glorified. How is that possible? I don't KNOW.

Jesus said, "where two or three are gathered in my name, I AM THERE in the midst of them" (Matt 18:20). How is that true - if it is another divine Being, and NOT Jesus Himself?

Jesus said, "I am with you always, even unto the end of the age." How is THAT true, if it is NOT Jesus with us?

Before His incarnation, Jesus was "the express image" of His Father. (Heb 1). Which means that the Son of God was "spirit" just as His Father was "spirit". If He was "glorified with the glory" that He had with His Father before the world was (John 17) THEN would not that "glory" include the capacity to be omnipresent, and omniscient, and omnipotent.

October 30, 2015

SENT BY THE FATHER

John 5:23 "that all should honor the Son just as they honor the Father. He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him."

John 4:34 Jesus said to them, "My food is to do the will of Him [singular] who sent Me, and to finish His [singular] work."

John 5:36 "But I have a greater witness than John's; for the works which the Father has given Me to finish-- the very works that I do-- bear witness of Me, that the Father has sent Me. 37 "And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me."

John 6:39 "This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day."

John 6:44 "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day."

John 6:57 "As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me."

John 8:16 "And yet if I do judge, My judgment is true; for I am not alone, but I am with the Father who sent Me."

John 8:42 Jesus said to them, "If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me."

John 10:36 "do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world,`You are blaspheming,' because I said,`I am the Son of God '?"

John 12:49 "For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak."

John 17:21 "that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me."

John 17:25 "O righteous Father! The world has not known You, but I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me."

John 20:21 "So Jesus said to them again, "Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you."

1 John 4:14 "And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world."

THAT is what I'm trying to do. "God so loved the world that HE gave HIS only begotten Son." Right? And WHO is "God"?

I Corinthians 8:6 "There is one God, the Father, AND one Lord, Jesus the Christ." No mention of a third being.

Galatians 4:6 And because you are sons, God has sent forth the Spirit of His Son into your hearts, crying out, "Abba, Father!"

The Holy Spirit IS "the Spirit of His Son."

THERE IS NO MENTION OF A THIRD DIVINE BEING HERE. Jesus NEVER said that He was "sent by the Spirit", or did "the works of the Spirit". It was ALWAYS "my Father", "the Father".

Blessings, Rachel Cory, prophecyviewpoint.com

October 31, 2015

It is very sad to me that we have changed the writings of EGW. That is why she did not want the SDA Church to own her estate. It also amazing that in 1946 with the aid of Froom the trinity nonsense started moving into the Adventist Church. My mother and I came into the SDA Church in 1955 and at that time we did not believe in the trinity. Here is one thing we must look at first by EGW:

I saw that ELOHIM had especially guarded the Bible; yet when copies of it were few, learned men had in some instances changed the words, thinking that they were making it more plain, when in reality they were mystifying that which was plain, by causing it to lean to their established views, which were governed by tradition. But I saw that the Word of ELOHIM, as a whole, is a perfect chain, one portion linking into and explaining another. True seekers for truth need not err; for not only is the Word of ELOHIM plain and simple in declaring the way of life, but THE HOLY SPIRIT is given as a guide in understanding the way to life therein revealed. EW p. 220, 221

She was correct, and we do not check out words in the Bible to their original root meaning. We accept the word god, jesus, lord because of the European who's language is English. We do not see where we get things from nor do many even care. This delights Satan because we make his work so easy to deceive us! The Bible makes it very clear that there are THREE INDIVIDUAL SUPREME BEINGS in Heaven but we refuses to see it. Let's start with THE HOLY SPIRIT that many call a ghost with disrespect!

And the earth ^H776 was ^H1961 without form,^H8414 and void; ^H922 and darkness ^H2822 was upon ^H5921 the face ^H6440 of the deep.^H8415 And THE SPIRIT ^H7307of ELOHIM ^H430 moved ^H7363 upon ^H5921 the face ^H6440 of the waters.^H4325 Gen 1:2

Above you have the exact words coming from Paleo-Hebrew of is not suppose to be there with THE SPIRIT it should be THE SPIRIT ELOHIM! The some one mention echad but left off explaining the meaning is properly united. How is it that THE ALMIGHTY ONES are persons with what one body? So that means Adam and Eve being of one flesh must have one body and two persons. This does not make any sense and we all know it. What about these Scriptures:

And ELOHIM said, Let US make man in OUR IMAGE, after OUR LIKENESS:Gen 1:26

Go to, let US go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech. Gen 11:7

And HE gave unto Moses, when HE had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of Testimony, tables of stone, written with THE FINGER of ELOHIM. Ex 31:18

Who hath ascended up into Heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in HIS FIST? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is HIS NAME, and what is HIS SON'S NAME, if thou canst tell? Pro 30:4

Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against THE HOLY SPIRIT shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against THE SON of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against THE HOLY SPIRIT, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. Matt 12:31, 32

For David himself said by THE HOLY SPIRIT, YAHWEH said to MY MASTER, Sit thou on MY RIGHT HAND, till I make THINE enemies thy footstool. Mark 12:36

And THE HOLY SPIRIT descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon HIM, and A VOICE came from HEAVEN, which said, THOU ART MY BELOVED SON; in THEE I am well pleased. Luke 3:22

In the beginning was THE WORD, and THE WORD was with ELOHIM, and THE WORD was ELOHIM. The same was in the beginning with ELOHIM. All things were made by HIM; and without HIM was not any thing made that was made. John 1:1-3

Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, THE COMFORTER will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send HIM unto you. John 16:7

For HE is THE BRIGHTNESS of HIS GLORY, and THE EXPRESS IMAGE of HIS BEING, and upholding all things by THE POWER of HIS WORD; having made purification of our sins through HIMSELF, HE sat down on THE RIGHT HAND of THE MAJESTY ON HIGH, (Psa. 110:1) Heb 1:3 (HRB)

And I saw on the right of THE ONE sitting on the Throne a scroll having been written within and on the back, having been sealed with seven seals. And HE came and took the scroll out of THE RIGHT HAND of HIM sitting on the Throne. Rev 5:1, 7 (HRB)

[For there are THREE that testify in Heaven, THE FATHER, THE WORD, and THE HOLY SPIRIT: and these THREE are united.] 1John 5:7 (Murdock)

The Bible makes it very clear that THREE ALMIGHTY BEINGS created the Heaven and the earth. Man has always tried to make ELOHIM down to us instead of us returning up to THEM! The word "person" which comes from the Greek word "hupostasis" that the Catholic Church took to change THE FATHER, THE SON and THE HOLY SPIRIT into this one body being having the same belief of a three pagan head god of Rome! The word ELOHIM was given in ancient time and all know this is a plural word. Yet, the excuse has to do with the verb and not the word itself. Sister White told us that one day we would have to relinquish our views that we once held on to. TM p. 105-117 Because just before the Time of Trouble, the truth would be revealed. What is so shocking to me is that we believe things she gave no Biblical references to. Many things she wrote was based on the history and the common belief at the time. Those things presented her by ELOHIM was already in the Bible broken down and she pointed it back to the Bible. We refuse to believe what she clearly stated she was not a prophet and she could not add on anything that was not in the Bible. The Europeans taught to believe in this monotheistic non body whatever and we are just like children led astray. We do not dig deeper enough nor research to truly understand that this was a scheme of the Devil. It does not even make sense to believe in a tri, which is what the Catholic teaches instead of THREE INDIVIDUAL SUPREME BEINGS! You know what is so funny people believe in aliens now who suppose to have made us. But those who have the truth refuses to open our eyes to truth that is all around us!

Happy Sabbath and be bless!

November 1, 2015

20 hours ago, stinsonmarri said:

And the earth ^H776 was ^H1961 without form,^H8414 and void; ^H922 and darkness ^H2822 was upon ^H5921 the face ^H6440 of the deep.^H8415 And THE SPIRIT ^H7307of ELOHIM ^H430 moved ^H7363 upon ^H5921 the face ^H6440 of the waters.^H4325 Gen 1:2

The Bible makes presents God the Father as the Creator of the Heavens and the earth. He [the Father] created THROUGH His Son.

THE FATHER CREATED ALL THINGS - THROUGH HIS SON

1 Corinthians 8:6 “ ... yet for us there is one God, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live.”

Revelation 4:9-11 “Whenever the living creatures give glory and honor and thanks to Him who sits on the throne, who lives forever and ever, the twenty-four elders fall down before Him who sits on the throne and worship Him who lives forever and ever, and cast their crowns before the throne, saying: ‘You are worthy, O Lord, To receive glory and honor and power; For You created all things, And by Your will they exist and were created.’”

The SPIRIT does not "sit" on the throne. The Father SITS on the throne. He is the SOURCE of all life.

Ephesians 3:14-15 “For this reason I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, from whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named,”

The FAMILY is "named" after the Father, because HE and HE alone, is the source of all life.

Ephesians 3:9 “ ... and to make all see what is the fellowship of the mystery, which from the beginning of the ages has been hidden in God who created all things through Jesus Christ;”

Hebrews 1:1-2, 8, 10 “God, [the Father] who at various times and in various ways spoke in time past to the fathers by the prophets, has in these last days spoken to us by His Son, whom He has appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the worlds; who being the brightness of His glory and the express image of His person [singular], and upholding all things by the word of His power, when He had by Himself purged our sins, sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high,”... “And: [to the Son He says] ‘You LORD, in the beginning laid the foundation of the earth, and the heavens are the work of Your hands;”

John 1:3 “All things were made through Him, and without Him nothing was made that was made.”

John 1:10 “He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him.”

Colossians 1:12-16 “ ... giving thanks to the Father who has qualified us to be partakers of the inheritance of the saints in the light. He has delivered us from the power of darkness and conveyed us into the kingdom of the Son of His love, in whom we have redemption through His blood, the forgiveness of sins. He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn over all creation. For by Him [the Son] all things were created that are in heaven and that are on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or principalities or powers. All things were created through Him and for Him.”

There is no mention of the SPIRIT creating anything - ONLY the Father and His Son. The "spirit" which "moved upon the face of the waters" was CHRIST in His pre-incarnate state. He was omnipresent - just like His Father.

November 1, 2015

20 hours ago, stinsonmarri said:

[For there are THREE that testify in Heaven, THE FATHER, THE WORD, and THE HOLY SPIRIT: and these THREE are united.] 1John 5:7 (Murdock)

Most Bible commentaries note that this verse is NOT FOUND in any ancient manuscript older than the 16th century. It was translated into the Latin Vulgate by Erasmus, who was shown a forged Greek manuscript. One must assume that Erasmus was under threat when he did this, because the Catholic Church had become very powerful by this time. No serious Bible scholar today sites this verse in support of the Trinity doctrine.

November 1, 2015

20 hours ago, stinsonmarri said:

And ELOHIM said, Let US make man in OUR IMAGE, after OUR LIKENESS:Gen 1:26

Go to, let US go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech. Gen 11:7

The words "OUR", and "US" include more than one, but not necessarily three. God the Father said to His Son, "let US make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness".

November 1, 2015

21 hours ago, stinsonmarri said:

For David himself said by THE HOLY SPIRIT, YAHWEH said to MY MASTER, Sit thou on MY RIGHT HAND, till I make THINE enemies thy footstool. Mark 12:36

WHO WAS THE HOLY SPIRIT OF THE OLD TESTAMENT?

1 Peter 1:11 searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. (NKJ)

ANSWER: It was the "Spirit of Christ". He is the ONE mediator, and always has been.

Even Mrs White says that ALL the communication between heaven and earth since Adam, has come through Christ. So - this verse does NOT support a Trinity doctrine.

November 1, 2015

Ephesians 3:14-18 "For this reason I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, from whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might through His Spirit in the inner man, that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith" (NKJ).

The SPIRIT is the "spirit of the Father". The Father gave of His Spirit "without measure" to His Son. The Son then passes that Spirit on to us. The origin of the Spirit is the Father. It is a gift from the Father. We thank the Father for this gift, which comes to us through Christ. The EFFECT - is that we experience the presence of Christ with us, and in us. There is no third divine being here.

1 John 2:24 "If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. (NKJ)

1 John 1:3 that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ." (NKJ)

There is no THIRD divine being here.

As for the DOVE that was seen descending upon Christ at His baptism, the Father was giving a sign of His anointing - His anointing of His Son, with His spirit.

I think the evidence is heavily in favor of TWO DIVINE BEINGS - God our Father and His begotten Son. Those who believe that GOD is three beings who have always existed, do NOT believe that God beget a Son. One being of a "trio" simply incarnated and took the ROLE of a Son.

November 1, 2015

Quote

Those who believe that GOD is three beings who have always existed, do NOT believe that God beget a Son.

These seem like separate issues.

November 2, 2015

8 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

WHO WAS THE HOLY SPIRIT OF THE OLD TESTAMENT?

1 Peter 1:11 searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. (NKJ)

ANSWER: It was the "Spirit of Christ". He is the ONE mediator, and always has been.

Even Mrs White says that ALL the communication between heaven and earth since Adam, has come through Christ. So - this verse does NOT support a Trinity doctrine.