Ellen White & the Trinity

[stinsonmarri]

8 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

WHO WAS THE HOLY SPIRIT OF THE OLD TESTAMENT?

1 Peter 1:11 searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. (NKJ)

ANSWER:  It was the "Spirit of Christ".  He is the ONE mediator, and always has been.   

Even Mrs White says that ALL the communication between heaven and earth since Adam, has come through Christ.   So - this verse does NOT support a Trinity doctrine. 

It is very sad to me that we have changed the writings of EGW. That is why she did not want the SDA Church to own her estate. It also amazing that in 1946 with the aid of Froom the trinity nonsense started moving into the Adventist Church. My mother and I came into the SDA Church in 1955 and at that time we did not believe in the trinity. Here is one thing we must look at first by EGW:

 

 I saw that ELOHIM had especially guarded the Bible; yet when copies of it were few, learned men had in some instances changed the words, thinking that they were making it more plain, when in reality they were mystifying that which was plain, by causing it to lean to their established views, which were governed by tradition. But I saw that the Word of ELOHIM, as a whole, is a perfect chain, one portion linking into and explaining another. True seekers for truth need not err; for not only is the Word of ELOHIM plain and simple in declaring the way of life, but THE HOLY SPIRIT is given as a guide in understanding the way to life therein revealed. EW p. 220, 221

She was correct, and we do not check out words in the Bible to their original root meaning. We accept the word god, jesus, lord because of the European who's language is English. We do not see where we get things from nor do many even care. This delights Satan because we make his work so easy to deceive us! The Bible makes it very clear that there are THREE INDIVIDUAL SUPREME BEINGS in Heaven but we refuses to see it. Let's start with THE HOLY SPIRIT that many call a ghost with disrespect!

And the earth ^H776 was ^H1961 without form,^H8414 and void; ^H922 and darkness ^H2822 was upon ^H5921 the face ^H6440 of the deep.^H8415 And THE SPIRIT ^H7307of ELOHIM ^H430 moved ^H7363 upon ^H5921 the face ^H6440 of the waters.^H4325 Gen 1:2 

Above you have the exact words coming from Paleo-Hebrew of is not suppose to be there with THE SPIRIT  it should be THE SPIRIT ELOHIM! The some one mention echad but left off explaining the meaning is properly united. How is it that THE ALMIGHTY ONES are persons with what one body? So that means Adam and Eve being of one flesh must have one body and two persons. This does not make any sense and we all know it. What about these Scriptures:

And ELOHIM said, Let US make man in OUR IMAGE, after OUR LIKENESS:Gen 1:26  

Go to, let US go down, and there confound their language, that they may not understand one another's speech. Gen 11:7

 And HE gave unto Moses, when HE had made an end of communing with him upon mount Sinai, two tables of Testimony, tables of stone, written with THE FINGER of ELOHIM. Ex 31:18

Who hath ascended up into Heaven, or descended? who hath gathered the wind in HIS FIST? who hath bound the waters in a garment? who hath established all the ends of the earth? what is HIS NAME, and what is HIS SON'S NAME, if thou canst tell? Pro 30:4  

Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against THE HOLY SPIRIT shall not be forgiven unto men. And whosoever speaketh a word against THE SON of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against THE HOLY SPIRIT, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come. Matt 12:31, 32 

For David himself said by THE HOLY SPIRIT, YAHWEH  said to MY MASTER, Sit thou on MY RIGHT HAND, till I make THINE enemies thy footstool. Mark 12:36  

And THE HOLY SPIRIT descended in a bodily shape like a dove upon HIM, and A VOICE came from HEAVEN, which said, THOU ART MY BELOVED SON; in THEE I am well pleased. Luke 3:22  

In the beginning was THE WORD, and THE WORD was with ELOHIM, and THE WORD was ELOHIM. The same was in the beginning with ELOHIM. All things were made by HIM; and without HIM was not any thing made that was made. John 1:1-3  

Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, THE COMFORTER will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send HIM unto you. John 16:7  

For HE is THE BRIGHTNESS of HIS GLORY, and THE EXPRESS IMAGE of HIS BEING, and upholding all things by THE POWER of HIS WORD; having made purification of our sins through HIMSELF, HE sat down on THE RIGHT HAND of THE MAJESTY ON HIGH, (Psa. 110:1) Heb 1:3 (HRB)

And I saw on the right of THE ONE sitting on the Throne a scroll having been written within and on the back, having been sealed with seven seals. And HE came and took the scroll out of THE RIGHT HAND of HIM sitting on the Throne. Rev 5:1, 7 (HRB)

[For there are THREE that testify in Heaven, THE FATHER, THE WORD, and THE HOLY SPIRIT: and these THREE are united.] 1John 5:7  (Murdock)

The Bible makes it very clear that THREE ALMIGHTY BEINGS created the Heaven and the earth. Man has always tried to make ELOHIM down to us instead of us returning up to THEM! The word "person" which comes from the Greek word "hupostasis" that the Catholic Church took to change THE FATHER, THE SON and THE HOLY SPIRIT into this one body being having the same belief of a three pagan head god of Rome! The word ELOHIM was given in ancient time and all know this is a plural word. Yet, the excuse has to do with the verb and not the word itself. Sister White told us that one day we would have to relinquish our views that we once held on to. TM p. 105-117 Because just before the Time of Trouble, the truth would be revealed. What is so shocking to me is that we believe things she gave no Biblical references to. Many things she wrote was based on the history and the common belief at the time. Those things presented her by ELOHIM was already in the Bible broken down and she pointed it back to the Bible. We refuse to believe what she clearly stated she was not a prophet and she could not add on anything that was not in the Bible. The Europeans taught to believe in this monotheistic non body whatever and we are just like children led astray. We do not dig deeper enough nor research to truly understand that this was a scheme of the Devil. It does not even make sense to believe in a tri, which is what the Catholic teaches instead of THREE INDIVIDUAL SUPREME BEINGS! You know what is so funny people believe in aliens now who suppose to have made us. But those who have the truth refuses to open our eyes to truth that is all around us!

Happy Sabbath and be bless!   

 

[stinsonmarri]

Rachel a trinity is a tri, I believe in THREE SEPARATE BEINGS. THE HOLY SPIRIT has been the Old and the New Testament. That is a fact. Because of scholars pagan belief all wrap into Catholicism change a lot base on these belief. Looking up the root word to original meaning show that quite clear!

Blessings!

[stinsonmarri]

10 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

The words "OUR", and "US" include more than one, but not necessarily three.  God the Father said to His Son, "let US make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness". 

All I want to show that it was more then one god person with three whatever attach according to the trinity. The Bible continues to show that THE HOLY SPIRIT was involve in Creation according to Gen 1:2 So accordingly these makes THREE!

Blessings!

[stinsonmarri]

10 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Most Bible commentaries note that this verse is NOT FOUND in any ancient manuscript older than the 16th century.  It was translated into the Latin Vulgate by Erasmus, who was shown a forged Greek manuscript.  One must assume that Erasmus was under threat when he did this, because the Catholic Church had become very powerful by this time.  No serious Bible scholar today sites this verse in support of the Trinity doctrine.   

Of course they do. Why because at that time they took on the trinity and removed it from the record. I was taught the same thing but YAHWEH will not let HIS WORD to become void. Here is the proof: 

In the beginning was THE WORD, and THE WORD was with ELOHIM, and THE WORD was ELOHIM. HE was in the beginning with ELOHIM. Everything existed through HIS HANDS, and without HIM, not even one thing existed of the things, which have existed.
John 1:1-3

And when THE COMFORTER comes, whom I will send to you near the Father, THE SPIRIT of TRUTH who proceeds near THE FATHER, it will Witness concerning ME. John 15:26

And I will pray THE FATHER, and HE shall give you another COMFORTER, that HE may abide with you forever; But THE COMFORTER, which is THE HOLY SPIRIT, whom THE FATHER will send in MY NAME, HE shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. John 14:16, 26

Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, THE COMFORTER will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send HIM unto you. John 16:7 

These verses show very clear that THE HOLY SPIRIT respect HIS job as THEY ALL  work together, but HE is know as THE SPIRIT of TRUTH. THEY ALL do things differently but collectively together. You cannot get to THE SON or THE FATHER if you grieve away THE HOLY SPIRIT. If HE leaves you soul is lost and there is no hope!

 

Blessings!

[Gregory Matthews]

Stinsonmari, I note that in your citation from Ellen White, on pages 220 & 221 of Early writings, you have not quoted here exactly.  Rather you have rewritten what she said to reflect your own ideas.  Here is what she actually wrote:

Perhaps you will tell us that your change is minor.  O.K.  Why then did you make that change?

I guess my question is:  Why do you think you should rewrite what EGW wrote?

 

  I saw that God had especially guarded the Bible; yet when copies of it were few, learned men had in some instances changed the words, thinking that they were making it more plain, when in reality they were mystifying that which was plain, by causing it to lean

                                                                           221

to their established views, which were governed by tradition. But I saw that the Word of God, as a whole, is a perfect chain, one portion linking into and explaining another. True seekers for truth need not err; for not only is the Word of God plain and simple in declaring the way of life, but the Holy Spirit is given as a guide in understanding the way to life therein revealed.  {EW 220.2}  [/quote}

 

[Gregory Matthews]

Paleo-Hebrew:  This comment is without foundation.  It is speculative and held by a few people, but not by the historic majority.

The majority opinion is clearly that the Biblical MSS that were written in Hebrew were  written in Ashuri script.  This is not a denial that Paleo-Hebrew existed as a script.    We have the evidence that it existed on the face of three Roman coins and in a few documents among the DSS.  But, this is not evidence that the Biblical MSS were written n that script.

If you believe that the Biblical MSS were written in that script, please cite the MSS. 

For an article that discuses the evidence both pro and con, see:    http://www.jewishmag.com/160mag/original_hebrew_script/original_hebrew_script.htm 

[8thdaypriest]

12 hours ago, stinsonmarri said:

15 hours ago, pnattmbtc said:

These seem like separate issues.

Rachel a trinity is a tri, I believe in THREE SEPARATE BEINGS. THE HOLY SPIRIT has been the Old and the New Testament. That is a fact. Because of scholars pagan belief all wrap into Catholicism change a lot base on these belief. Looking up the root word to original meaning show that quite clear!

Blessings!

Ephesians 3:14-18  "For this reason I bow my knees to the Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, from whom the whole family in heaven and earth is named, that He would grant you, according to the riches of His glory, to be strengthened with might through His Spirit in the inner man, that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith"  (NKJ). 

The SPIRIT is the "spirit of the Father".  The Father gave of His Spirit "without measure" to His Son.  The Son then passes that Spirit on to us.  The origin of the Spirit is the Father.  It is a gift from the Father.  We thank the Father for this gift, which comes to us through Christ.  The EFFECT - is that we experience the presence of Christ with us, and in us.  There is no third divine being here. 

1 John 2:24 "If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son and in the Father. (NKJ)

1 John 1:3 that which we have seen and heard we declare to you, that you also may have fellowship with us; and truly our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son Jesus Christ." (NKJ)

There is no THIRD divine being here. 

As for the DOVE that was seen descending upon Christ at His baptism, the Father was giving a sign of His anointing - His anointing of His Son, with His spirit. 

I think the evidence is heavily in favor of TWO DIVINE BEINGS - God our Father and His begotten Son.  Those who believe that GOD is three beings who have always existed, do NOT believe that God beget a Son.  One being of a "trio" simply incarnated and took the ROLE of a Son. 

[8thdaypriest]

12 hours ago, stinsonmarri said:

In the beginning was THE WORD, and THE WORD was with ELOHIM, and THE WORD was ELOHIM. HE was in the beginning with ELOHIM. Everything existed through HIS HANDS, and without HIM, not even one thing existed of the things, which have existed.
John 1:1-3

And when THE COMFORTER comes, whom I will send to you near the Father, THE SPIRIT of TRUTH who proceeds near THE FATHER, it will Witness concerning ME. John 15:26

And I will pray THE FATHER, and HE shall give you another COMFORTER, that HE may abide with you forever; But THE COMFORTER, which is THE HOLY SPIRIT, whom THE FATHER will send in MY NAME, HE shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. John 14:16, 26

Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, THE COMFORTER will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send HIM unto you. John 16:7 

These verses show very clear that THE HOLY SPIRIT respect HIS job as THEY ALL  work together, but HE is know as THE SPIRIT of TRUTH. THEY ALL do things differently but collectively together. You cannot get to THE SON or THE FATHER if you grieve away THE HOLY SPIRIT. If HE leaves you soul is lost and there is no hope!

 I think most would agree that "the Word" is Jesus.  I personally believe that He WAS 'THE BEGINNING' of God's way.  Time - linear time - began with the begetting of God's Son.  God's Son THEN carried out the Father's will and plan, by creating everything else. 

Proverbs 8:22 "The LORD possessed me at the beginning of His way, Before His works of old." (NKJ)

The English translation of the Septuagint reads, "made me the beginning of His ways, for his works." 

Mrs White quotes Proverbs 8:22-30 and says this is Christ speaking. 

As for the coming of the "comforter" or "advocate" or "helper" which would "witness" of Christ,  the fact that this presence would "witness of Christ" does NOT prove this presence is ANOTHER, or a THIRD divine person.  Jesus said the Scriptures "testify of me" (John 5:39).  The Scriptures are not another person.  It was the manifest power of this Spirit, that proved or "testified" of Christ's resurrection.  It verified the truth of His identity, as "the Son of God".  

Paul said to the Jews, "You stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you" (Act 7:51 NKJ).  So - what was this Spirit that their Father's resisted? 

Peter says it WAS the "Spirit of Christ".  1 Peter 1:11 "searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow."  BEFORE He incarnated Jesus was omnipresent and His Spirit indwelt prophets of old.  When Jesus returned to Heaven, and was glorified by His Father, this POWER to be omnipresent was returned to Him.  The Father GAVE His spirit "without measure" to His Son, and THEN Jesus poured out His Spirit upon His waiting disciples. 

There is NO THIRD divine being here, just Jesus and His Father.   When we resist the Spirit, we are resisting the "Spirit of Christ", and we will be lost IF we continue to resist.  

Jesus asked His Father for this gift.  Jesus then poured out this Spirit.  Why would Jesus ask His Father for ANOTHER divine being?  How could Jesus then "pour out" or "baptize with" ANOTHER divine being?  That doesn't make sense. 

Romans 8:9 "But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His." (NKJ)

The "Spirit of God" IS the "Spirit of the Father" which was given to Christ, who then poured it upon His disciples, who then EXPERIENCED Christ's own presence - "the Spirit of Christ". 

Which is why Paul wrote, "the last Adam was made a life giving Spirit" (I Cor. 15:45).   The "last Adam" IS Christ, and He "became" or "was made" Spirit - the Holy Spirit Comforter with us.   Which is why Jesus could promise, "I am with you always."  and "I am there in the midst", and "I will never leave you or forsake you."  

Jesus is either "with" us Himself, OR He sent another divine being to be "with" us.  I believe the evidence favors TWO divine beings - Father and His begotten Son. 

 

 

 

[8thdaypriest]

13 hours ago, stinsonmarri said:

Rachel a trinity is a tri, I believe in THREE SEPARATE BEINGS. THE HOLY SPIRIT has been the Old and the New Testament. That is a fact. Because of scholars pagan belief all wrap into Catholicism change a lot base on these belief. Looking up the root word to original meaning show that quite clear!

Blessings!

"Tri" indicates THREE.  Whether you say that "God" is THREE beings who have always existed (in which case "God" did NOT beget a Son)  OR say that God is one being who "manifests" as THREE, (in which case God did NOT "beget" a Son) you are still talking about a "Tri". 

Jesus NEVER ONCE spoke to the Spirit, or prayed to the Spirit, or taught us to pray to the Spirit, or glorify the Spirit, or worship the Spirit.  The Spirit has NO THRONE, and has NO NAME.  How am I to believe that "He" exists as a THIRD divine "person" ?  

[JoeMo]

Hi Rachel,

I totally agree with you about the HS and the "only begotten Son" thing.  Yet, I do understand why people can think the HS is a seperate entity.  One question I have a hard time answering is "if the SH is a power rather than an entity, why is the HS frequently referred to as "He" in scripture?

[stinsonmarri]

On 11/1/2015, 11:08:52, 8thdaypriest said:

Most Bible commentaries note that this verse is NOT FOUND in any ancient manuscript older than the 16th century.  It was translated into the Latin Vulgate by Erasmus, who was shown a forged Greek manuscript.  One must assume that Erasmus was under threat when he did this, because the Catholic Church had become very powerful by this time.  No serious Bible scholar today sites this verse in support of the Trinity doctrine.   

Of course they do. Why because at that time they took on the trinity and removed it from the record. I was taught the same thing but YAHWEH will not let HIS WORD to become void. Here is the proof: 

In the beginning was THE WORD, and THE WORD was with ELOHIM, and THE WORD was ELOHIM. HE was in the beginning with ELOHIM. Everything existed through HIS HANDS, and without HIM, not even one thing existed of the things, which have existed.
John 1:1-3

And when THE COMFORTER comes, whom I will send to you near the Father, THE SPIRIT of TRUTH who proceeds near THE FATHER, it will Witness concerning ME. John 15:26

And I will pray THE FATHER, and HE shall give you another COMFORTER, that HE may abide with you forever; But THE COMFORTER, which is THE HOLY SPIRIT, whom THE FATHER will send in MY NAME, HE shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you. John 14:16, 26

Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, THE COMFORTER will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send HIM unto you. John 16:7 

These verses show very clear that THE HOLY SPIRIT respect HIS job as THEY ALL  work together, but HE is know as THE SPIRIT of TRUTH. THEY ALL do things differently but collectively together. You cannot get to THE SON or THE FATHER if you grieve away THE HOLY SPIRIT. If HE leaves you soul is lost and there is no hope!

 

Blessings!

[stinsonmarri]

"Tri" indicates THREE.  Whether you say that "God" is THREE beings who have always existed (in which case "God" did NOT beget a Son)  OR say that God is one being who "manifests" as THREE, (in which case God did NOT "beget" a Son) you are still talking about a "Tri". 

Jesus NEVER ONCE spoke to the Spirit, or prayed to the Spirit, or taught us to pray to the Spirit, or glorify the Spirit, or worship the Spirit.  The Spirit has NO THRONE, and has NO NAME.  How am I to believe that "He" exists as a THIRD divine "person" ?  

 

Something is wrong with the quote button. Rachel here is what tri means:

a combining form meaning “three,” used in the formation of compound words: triacid; triatomic. Word Origin.

(Greek > Latin: a numerical prefix meaning, three, thrice, threefold; triple; a word element for number 3): Consisting of, or involving, three; threefold; triple:

trinal: Having three parts; threefold. trinary: 1. Threefold; triple; ternary. 2. Consisting of three parts or proceeding by threes. trinity: 1. The state of being threefold, threefoldness, threeness; a group consisting of three closely related members.  2. In theological use, applied to the existence of one God in three persons. 3. The three persons or modes of being of the Godhead as conceived in orthodox Christian belief; the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit as constituting one God; the triune God.

Threefold adj. having three elements or parts; triple. Composed of three parts. Collins English Dictionary – Complete and Unabridged ©

Three is the largest number still written with as many lines as the number represents. (The Ancient Romans usually wrote 4 as IIII, but this was almost entirely replaced by the subtractive notation IV in the Middle Ages.) To this day 3 is written as three lines in Roman and Chinese numerals.  From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There is a difference with the prefix tri versus the value number three! As I stated earlier one a part of, while the other is the whole part separately, that is the difference.

 

[Gregory Matthews]

Rachel is correct as to the passage in 1 John.

[8thdaypriest]

On 11/2/2015, 10:56:35, JoeMo said:

Hi Rachel,

I totally agree with you about the HS and the "only begotten Son" thing.  Yet, I do understand why people can think the HS is a seperate entity.  One question I have a hard time answering is "if the SH is a power rather than an entity, why is the HS frequently referred to as "He" in scripture?

John 15:26 "But when the Helper comes, whom I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who proceeds from the Father, He will testify of Me."

A lot has to do with the Greek #3739, translated as "whom" and "who", and #1565, translated as "He". 

John 15:26 "But when the Helper comes, whom <3739> I shall send to you from the Father, the Spirit of truth who <3739> proceeds from  the Father, He <1565> will testify of Me."

If you look up #3739, you will find that the Greek can be translated as "which" or "that", rather than "whom" or "who".  The Greek does NOT demand a personal pronoun.  The translators chose the personal pronoun BECAUSE they believed in a Trinity.  Mrs White used the neuter "it", for 50 years.  In later publications of her early writings, the "it" was changed to "He" (by the publishers) when referring to the Spirit.     

3739 o[j hos {hos} including feminine h[ he {hay}, and o[ neuter ho {ho}
Meaning:  1) who, which, what, that

So - is the "spirit" in this passage a person?  I believe that Jesus received the Spirit from His Father, and then sends His spirit presence to be with us, and in us.  So yes - I believe the Spirit IS A PERSON.  I believe He is Christ. 

"The last Adam BECAME a life giving Spirit"  (I Cor. 15:45).   What "Spirit" would that be, except the Holy Spirit Comforter? 

Jesus referred to Himself, using third person "His" or "He" many times,  especially when Jesus used the title "Son of Man".   He was NOT talking about another person.  And I do NOT believe Jesus was speaking of another divine person, in John 15:26. 

EXAMPLE:  Matthew 16:27 "For the Son of Man will come in the glory of His Father with His angels, and then He will reward each according to his works. (NKJ)

People focus on the word "another" - as in "another comforter".  There were two Greek words - both translated as "another".  One could mean an additional - as in another coin, or another soldier.  The other word meant an additional one exactly like the first - a copy of the first, as in another dime, or another private (as opposed to captain, or corporal, or sergeant).  Jesus was sending ANOTHER me.  He would return to His followers, as Spirit.  

John 14:16 "And I will pray the Father, and He will give you another Helper, that He may abide with you forever-- 17 "the Spirit of truth, whom the world cannot receive, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him; but you know Him, for He dwells with you and will be in you. 18 "I will not leave you orphans; I will come to you." (NKJ)

WHO dwelt "with" them?  Answer:  Jesus

WHO would be "in" them?  Answer:  Jesus 

John 17:23  "I in them, and You [Father] in Me."    "Christ in you, the hope of glory" (Col. 1:27).  "that Christ may dwell in your hearts through faith" (Eph 3:17 NKJ).

 

[8thdaypriest]

"And this is eternal life, that they may know You, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom You have sent" (John 17:3). 

Jesus addressed His FATHER, when He spoke these words as part of His last public prayer before He was crucified.  All of John Cpt 17 IS this prayer.  If we accept Jesus' words, then the FATHER is the "only true God".  Jesus is God's only begotten son.  We worship Jesus BECAUSE the Father has commanded us to do so. 

Paul echos this teaching.

"Yet for us there is ONLY ONE GOD, the Father, of whom are all things, and we for Him;  and one Lord Jesus Christ, through whom are all things, and through whom we live." 

How can we get "three divine beings" from these verses? 

[JoeMo]

I also checked utthe word "He" <1565> used in John 14 -16  in reference to the HS; and it also generally means "this", "those" or "that" rather than "He".  More evidence of the HS being an "it".  Thanks for pointing the Strong's definitions out to me.

[stinsonmarri]

On 11/2/2015, 11:29:08, 8thdaypriest said:

 I think most would agree that "the Word" is Jesus.  I personally believe that He WAS 'THE BEGINNING' of God's way.  Time - linear time - began with the begetting of God's Son.  God's Son THEN carried out the Father's will and plan, by creating everything else. 

Proverbs 8:22 "The LORD possessed me at the beginning of His way, Before His works of old." (NKJ)

The English translation of the Septuagint reads, "made me the beginning of His ways, for his works." 

Mrs White quotes Proverbs 8:22-30 and says this is Christ speaking. 

As for the coming of the "comforter" or "advocate" or "helper" which would "witness" of Christ,  the fact that this presence would "witness of Christ" does NOT prove this presence is ANOTHER, or a THIRD divine person.  Jesus said the Scriptures "testify of me" (John 5:39).  The Scriptures are not another person.  It was the manifest power of this Spirit, that proved or "testified" of Christ's resurrection.  It verified the truth of His identity, as "the Son of God".  

Paul said to the Jews, "You stiffnecked and uncircumcised in heart and ears! You always resist the Holy Spirit; as your fathers did, so do you" (Act 7:51 NKJ).  So - what was this Spirit that their Father's resisted? 

Peter says it WAS the "Spirit of Christ".  1 Peter 1:11 "searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow."  BEFORE He incarnated Jesus was omnipresent and His Spirit indwelt prophets of old.  When Jesus returned to Heaven, and was glorified by His Father, this POWER to be omnipresent was returned to Him.  The Father GAVE His spirit "without measure" to His Son, and THEN Jesus poured out His Spirit upon His waiting disciples. 

There is NO THIRD divine being here, just Jesus and His Father.   When we resist the Spirit, we are resisting the "Spirit of Christ", and we will be lost IF we continue to resist.  

Jesus asked His Father for this gift.  Jesus then poured out this Spirit.  Why would Jesus ask His Father for ANOTHER divine being?  How could Jesus then "pour out" or "baptize with" ANOTHER divine being?  That doesn't make sense. 

Romans 8:9 "But you are not in the flesh but in the Spirit, if indeed the Spirit of God dwells in you. Now if anyone does not have the Spirit of Christ, he is not His." (NKJ)

The "Spirit of God" IS the "Spirit of the Father" which was given to Christ, who then poured it upon His disciples, who then EXPERIENCED Christ's own presence - "the Spirit of Christ". 

Which is why Paul wrote, "the last Adam was made a life giving Spirit" (I Cor. 15:45).   The "last Adam" IS Christ, and He "became" or "was made" Spirit - the Holy Spirit Comforter with us.   Which is why Jesus could promise, "I am with you always."  and "I am there in the midst", and "I will never leave you or forsake you."  

Jesus is either "with" us Himself, OR He sent another divine being to be "with" us.  I believe the evidence favors TWO divine beings - Father and His begotten Son. 

 

 

 

 

   

It is amazing to me Rachel that you quote from EGW to bring out a point to me. As I stated before so will I again EGW did not understand every thing. She said this just before she died:

How shall we search the Scriptures in order to understand what they teach? We should come to the investigation of ELOHIM'S Word with a contrite heart, a teachable and prayerful spirit. We are not to think, as did the Jews, that our own ideas and opinions are infallible; nor with the papists, that certain individuals are the sole guardians of truth and knowledge, that men have no right to search the Scriptures for themselves, but must accept the explanations given by the fathers of the church. We should not study the Bible for the purpose of sustaining our preconceived opinions, but with the single object of learning what ELOHIM has said.  Some have feared that if in even a single point they acknowledge themselves in error, other minds would be led to doubt the whole theory of truth.   How shall we search the Scriptures in order to understand what they teach? We should come to the investigation of ELOHIM'S Word with a contrite heart, a teachable and prayerful spirit. We are not to think, as did the Jews, that our own ideas and opinions are infallible; nor with the papists, that certain individuals are the sole guardians of truth and knowledge, that men have no right to search the Scriptures for themselves, but must accept the explanations given by the fathers of the church. We should not study the Bible for the purpose of sustaining our preconceived opinions, but with the single object of learning what ELOHIM has said.

Therefore they have felt that investigation should not be permitted, that it would tend to dissension and disunion. But if such is to be the result of investigation, the sooner it comes the better. If there are those whose faith in ELOHIM'S Word will not stand the test of an investigation of the Scriptures, the sooner they are revealed the better; for then the way will be opened to show them their error. We cannot hold that a position once taken, an idea once advocated, is not, under any circumstances, to be relinquished. There is but One who is infallible--He who is the way, the truth, and the life.

Those who allow prejudice to bar the mind against the reception of truth cannot receive the divine enlightenment.  Yet, when a view of Scripture is presented, many do not ask, Is it true--in harmony with ELOHIM'S word? but, By whom is it advocated? and unless it comes through the very channel that pleases them, they do not accept it. So thoroughly satisfied are they with their own ideas that they will not examine the Scripture evidence with a desire to learn, but refuse to be interested, merely because of their prejudices.

THE MASTER often works where we least expect Him; He surprises us by revealing His power through instruments of His own choice, while He passes by the men to whom we have looked as those through whom light should come. ELOHIM desires us to receive the truth upon its own merits--because it is truth.

The Bible must not be interpreted to suit the ideas of men, however long they may have held these ideas to be true. We are not to accept the opinion of commentators as the voice of ELOHIM; they were erring mortals like ourselves. ELOHIM has given reasoning powers to us as well as to them. We should make the Bible its own expositor. TM 105, 106

She did not understand THE HOLY SPIRIT and you took Peter's Scriptures out of context. This is what 1 Peter 1:11 and Roman 8:9 is referring to:

Afterward HE appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen HIM after HE was risen. Mark 16:14 

And it came to pass, as HE sat at meat with them, HE took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them. And their eyes were opened, and they knew HIM; and HE vanished out of their sight. Luke 24:30, 31 

Then the same day at evening, being the first day of the week, when the doors were shut where the disciples were assembled for fear of the Jews, came YAHSHUA and stood in the midst, and saith unto them, Peace be unto you. And when HE had so said, HE shewed unto them HIS HANDS and HIS SIDE. Then were the disciples glad, when they saw THE MASTER. And after eight days again HIS disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came YAHSHUA, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.  Then saith HE to Thomas, Reach hither thy finger, and behold MY HANDS; and reach hither thy hand, and thrust it into MY SIDE: and be not faithless, but believing. And Thomas answered and said unto HIM, MY MASTER and MY ELOHIM. YAHSHUA saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen ME, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed. John 20:19, 20, 27-29 

Hebrew 1:7 states the fact as well that all of the Heavenly beings were spirits meaning they were living beings with life and not a ghost!!!  YAHSHUA showed us clearly how we will become, when we will be changed from our fleshly bodies to take on a spiritual body that we can feel and touch. The Bible is consistent if you will follow Its principles with understanding and wisdom that THE HOLY SPIRIT gives to you. The problem with us is to long we have been deceived by Satan through paganism ideology. We have allowed him to teach about ghost and mystical creatures, when the Bibles makes it clear.

For the invisible things of THEM from the Creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even THEIR ETERNAL POWER and MAJESTY; so that they are without excuse: Because that, when they knew ELOHIM, they glorified THEM not as ELOHIM, neither were thankful; but became vain in their imaginations, and their foolish heart was darkened.  Professing themselves to be wise, they became fools, And changed THE GLORY of the incorruptible ELOHIM into an image made like to corruptible man, and to birds, and four-footed beasts, and creeping things.  Rom 1:20-23 

You see Rachael we do not get it because we do not think outside the box of paganism. Nothing is impossible with ELOHIM. THEIR molecular structure is different then our's. What we think of spiritual is like we think of a ghost which really does not exist and that's the problem. THEY said let US make make man in OUR IMAGE and man reject it claiming a one god with heads attached to what? A person of what? Makes no sense at all, but Satan has man so delusional  ELOHIM allow man to believe a lie! Acts make it clear THE HOLY SPIRIT is a total different BEING then YAHSHUA states very clear that HE must leave so THE COMFORTER can come. Also we see the word HE but that doesn't matter when you don't believe. But you see I do believe in THREE and not tri, or that THESE ALMIGHTY BEINGS are  not persons with one body of some sort. I believe that we are made in THEIR IMAGE and THEIR LIKENESS. I believe we were not spiritual beings because we had to be tested. I believe that because ONE of THESE SPIRITUAL BEINGS became flesh like us and died for us, that we to we become changed and this sinful body with these disease blood will die to a new body. Yes a spiritual body because YAHSHUA is our example and like HIM we will be changed. One day I will have to pleasure of meeting THE THIRD HOLY BEING, THE HOLY SPIRIT who is THE ONLY ONE that lead us into truth and this leading of truth will take us to YAHSHUA and THE FATHER. THEY ALL work TOGETHER as ONE in UNITY to work out my soul salvation and I can say is hallelu-YAH!

Blessings!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

  

  

[Reddogs]

On ‎10‎/‎10‎/‎2014‎ ‎8‎:‎34‎:‎52‎, Gregory Matthews said:

The following article will be of interest to those who are interested in how Ellen White related to the Trinity.

 

http://www.atsjats.org/publication_file.php?pub_id=241

If people would read their Bibles instead of mans ideas, there wouldn't be a issue.

[Gregory Matthews]

Reddogs, I guess you are telling us that we should  not read your thoughts on this subject.  If you believe this, it would seem to me that you should not contribute to our sin by posting your thoughts.

I happen to believe other than you seem to believe.  I believe that it is helpful to read and discuss what people think the Bible teaches.  So, I do read your thoughts.   But, it just seems to me that if you actually believe what you seem to have said, that you should then not write on Biblical issues.

 

[8thdaypriest]

14 hours ago, jackson said:

 Rachel will comment in RED.

We know the Holy Spirit is not just a mere  power (1 Thes 1:5 and 1 Cor 2:4). 

The verses you site, simply say that things like preaching, were done BY THE POWER OF THE SPIRIT.  They don't say WHO that Spirit is. 

Matthew 10:19-20 DOES IDENTIFY the Spirit Who empowered the preaching.  "But when they deliver you up, do not worry about how or what you should speak. For it will be given to you in that hour what you should speak; 20 "for it is not you who speak, but the Spirit of your Father who speaks in you."

The Spirit IS God the Father.  Jesus told folks,  "But you, when you pray, go into your room, and when you have shut your door, pray to your Father who is in the secret place; and your Father who sees in secret will reward you openly." (Mat 6:6).  How could God the Father actually BE "in the secret place", unless HE IS SPIRIT.  

 We know the Holy Spirit can speak (Mark 13:11 and Acts 8:29, 10:19, 13:2).  Also Revelation's messages to the 7 churches.  If you read the words spoken by "the Spirit", they ARE the words of Christ.  It is Christ speaking, NOT a third divine being. 

Of course the Spirit "can speak".  The Spirit is Christ. 

 We know the Holy Spirit can be lied to and doing so is regarded as lying to God (Acts 5:3). 

Yes - because the Spirit IS Jesus, and rejecting, or hating, or lying to Jesus, is regarded as rejecting the Father, who is "the only true God" (John 17). 

"He who does not honor the Son does not honor the Father who sent Him" (Joh 5:23 NKJ). [No mention of a third divine being.]

John 15:23 "He who hates Me hates My Father also. (Joh 15:23 NKJ)  [No mention of a third divine being.] 

1 John 2:23 "Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also." [No mention of a third divine being.] 

 We know the Holy Spirit can be grieved (Eph 4:30). 

And how would grieving the Spirit, differ at all from grieving the heart of Jesus and thus His Father?  This does NOT prove the Spirit is a third divine being - the fact that the Spirit has human, and divine characteristics.  So does Jesus. 

 We know the Holy Spirit directs and commands the church ( Acts 1:2, 16:6-7). 

Jesus has been made "head of the church".  HE alone directs His church. 

 We know the Holy Spirit bestows gifts and has a will.(1 Cor 12:4,11) 

Yet we are to THANK the Father - not the Spirit - FOR the gifts.   Your sited verses do NOT say WHO the spirit IS.  They just say the gifts are distributed "through" the Spirit.  The same wording - of the passage - could be used if "the Spirit" is the Spirit of Christ, rather than a 3rd divine being. 

Ephesians 5:20 "giving thanks always for all things to God the Father in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ."  [No mention of thanking another being.]

James 1:17 "Every good gift and every perfect gift is from above, and comes down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shadow of turning."

 We know the Holy Spirit is not Jesus because John refers to Him as another "Paraclete", the Greek word for comforter.( John 14:16,26) Just as the Father sent his Son as a comforter as well as a Savior, God also sends His Holy Spirit to comfort, assist and enlighten mankind. 

The Comforter is "another" Jesus.  He is NOT a third divine being. 

Even Jesus in His  incarnate state was assisted by the Holy Spirit. ( Isa 42:1, Matt 3:16,12:18; Mark 1:10 and John 1:32 ).

Isaiah 42:1, and Matt 12:18:  This is God the Father speaking of His Son.  He says, "I have put My spirit upon Him."  [Does NOT prove a third divine being.]

Matthew 3:16:  Because God the Father, put His "seal" and spirit upon His Son, in the form of a dove, DOES NOT prove a third divine being.  The FATHER is the giver here.

 

And WHO WAS the "Spirit" which was always WITH Jesus? 

John 8:16 "And yet if I do judge, My judgment is true; for I am not alone, but I am with the Father who sent Me."

John 16:32 "And yet I am not alone, because the Father is with Me."

John 8:29 "And He who sent Me is with Me. The Father has not left Me alone".

NOT ONCE did Jesus EVER say that God the Father had sent a Comforter, or another Being to be "with" His Son.  No.  God the Father was with His Son.  And HOW could HE have been "with Him" except as "spirit". 

 The Holy Spirit is divine, for who but a divine being could search out the things of God and reveal them to men? Paul says," But God hath revealed [them] unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.         For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.(1 Cor 2:10-11)

I think I concluded that "the spirit" IS a divine person.  The spirit is God.  He is also called "Our Father". 

Jesus said, "God is spirit" (John 4:24).  Did Jesus then tell the woman to worship the Spirit.  No!  He said the true worshipers would worship the FATHER. 

The FATHER, who is "the only true God" according to Jesus (John 17:3), gave of His Spirit TO His own Son, enabling the Son to once again be omnipresent. 

I Cor. 15:45  "The last Adam was made a life giving spirit." 

What "spirit" would that BE except the spirit comforter?

Ephesians 4:10 "He who descended [into the grave] is also the One who ascended far above all the heavens, that He might fill all things." 

How would Jesus "fill all things" except as the Spirit, which lives in us, and is "with us" ?   

I believe that Jesus "returned" as the Comforter, WHEN God His Father glorified Him, and restored to Him His divine powers. 

 

[8thdaypriest]

15 hours ago, jackson said:

 The Holy Spirit is divine, for who but a divine being could search out the things of God and reveal them to men? Paul says," But God hath revealed [them] unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.         For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God.(1 Cor 2:10-11)

Yes - the Holy Spirit IS divine.  No argument there. 

I Cor. 2:10-11  "But God [the FATHER] has revealed them to us through His Spirit. For the Spirit searches all things, yes, the deep things of God. 11 For what man knows the things of a man except the spirit of the man which is in him? Even so no one knows the things of God except the Spirit of God."

The "Spirit of God" is compared to "the spirit of the man".  Only the "spirit of the man which is in him" KNOWS the "things of" the man.  So - only the Spirit of God, knows the "things of God".  The verse is saying that God, through His Spirit, is revealing His deepest thoughts - to us. 

Otherwise the verse gets confusing.  It would mean that the Spirit (who is God) is searching another divine being (who is also God).  Why would God need to search God? 

[JoeMo]

Great Sabbath Bible study, Rachel!  Thanks!

[8thdaypriest]

On 10/15/2014 at 10:50 AM, Kevin H said:

What Gibson, or what ever his name is, pointed out is that the Bible says that God is love. For that to happen you need at least 3. If there is only one God can be lovinging, but has nothing to love and could show that he is loving if he made things to love, but he would be loving, not love. For there to be two they would only be wrapped around their own self absorption and they may be loving, and create things to love but they would still be only loving, not love. To have love you need a minimum of 3. a love that can reach out in different directions. This way before God created creatures to love, he was still love and we can say that God is love. 

I don't get your argument - at all.  God IS love.  That's who He is.  That's His character. 

Now - if you change it to say "God loves" - then yes - you need to identify some thing or some being that He loves. 

A husband and wife are TWO beings who LOVE each other.  If they have children then they share their love with them.  If they do not have children, then they STILL love each other.  Their love is NOT SELFISH or SELF ABSORBED.  It's just the love of husband and wife. 

I believe that God the Father was the original SOURCE of all other life.  The Father beget a Son in His "express image" - His exact likeness.  An IMAGE is a COPY of an original.  The Father was the original.  Christ was the exact copy. 

1 Corinthians 8:6 "yet for us there is but one God, the Father, from whom all things came and for whom we live; and there is but one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom all things came and through whom we live. (NIV)

The Son of God became the AGENT of His Father, in creation, mediation, and redemption. 

Ephesians 4:6 "one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all" (NIV)

How is the Father "through all"?  Answer:  By His spirit, given to us through His own Son. 

[8thdaypriest]

14 hours ago, jackson said:

 

 

 

"God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son."  (John 3:15) 

Who is "God" in John 3:16?  "He" (singular) gave "His" (singular) only begotten Son (singular). 

Did God the Father give His only begotten Son?  Or not?

-----------------------------------------------------

IF the divine being who incarnated to become Jesus, was one of three eternally pre-existent beings, THEN God the Father never actually "beget" a Son. 

Instead - the Father's eternally co-existent partner, incarnated into human nature.  He BECAME "the Son of God" WHEN He incarnated.  He was NOT the "son of God" prior to His incarnation.  He simply took the ROLE of a Son.  He was NOT actually "the Son of God". 

There are 2 ways for Christ to actually BE "the Son of God".  One way - was, to have been "begotten" long before He incarnated.  The other way - was for the Son of God NOT to have pre-existed, but rather to have come into existence in the womb of Mary. 

 

[8thdaypriest]

14 hours ago, jackson said:

Interesting comments on 1 John 5:7 by John Gill in his Exposition on the Bible

http://www.biblestudytools.com/commentaries/gills-exposition-of-the-bible/1-john-5-7.html

One particularly pertinent point he makes on this verse:

it (1 John 5:7) is cited by Athanasius ^F1 about the year 350; and before him by Cyprian ^F2, in the middle, of the "third" century, about the year 250; and is referred to by Tertullian ^F3about, the year 200; and which was within a "hundred" years, or little more, of the writing of the epistle; which may be enough to satisfy anyone of the genuineness of this passage; and besides, there never was any dispute about it till Erasmus left it out in the, first edition of his translation of the New Testament; and yet he himself, upon the credit of the old British copy before mentioned, put it into another edition of his translation. The heavenly witnesses of Christ's sonship are the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost.

 

 

 

The following is an excerpt from my book "The Persons of God".  Those interested can read the entire chapter at my website prophecyviewpoint.com.

    Arius (c.250-336) held that Christ is the Son of God, and that because He is the Son He therefore had a beginning. “It is a necessary condition of the filial relation,” He wrote, “that the Father must be older than his Son.”   The Father and the Son are of “like substance” (or nature) and therefore Christ is divine and worthy of worship.  (Eusebius  - another early church "father" held the Arian view, and a century before Arius, another believer named Novation of Rome held a similar view.

Conflict with Arius and Arianism as well as successive Roman emperors shaped Athanasius's career.

    Athanasius, the Bishop of Alexandria from June 328, to May 373, headed the opposing  party which held that the Father and the Son are of “one substance,” and are coeternal. They asserted that the doctrine of Arius lowered the Son making Him less worthy of worship than the Father.  It is worth noting here Athanasius was bishop of Alexandria, Egypt.  The Egyptians had worshiped a triune God (Isis-Horus-Set, otherwise known as Amum-Maut-Khonso) for thirty centuries.   

    Such heated debates took place between Arius and Athanasius (and their followers) that the citizens of Alexandria amused themselves with theatrical satires and plays depicting the protagonists, and not many years went by before it could be said that nearly every Christian man or woman had an opinion concerning the nature of Christ.  The Jews and Pagans freely insulted Christianity with their mocking derision.

    The emperor Constantine was at first very amused by all the squabbling.  It kept the people occupied.  But as the controversy dragged on and on, he finally called a council of nearly 300 bishops to settle the matter.  The first ecumenical council of the Christian church took place in Nicaea (now in modern Turkey) c.325 - 294 years after the death of Christ. The presence of the emperor added to the vehemence of the arguments.  He would listen to all sides and then rule.  His verdict would decide truth.   

     From Wikipedia:  Athanasius actually began his leading role against the Arians at age 27, (in 325) as his bishop's assistant during the First Council of Nicaea. Roman emperor Constantine the Great had convened the council in May–August 325 to address the Arian position that the Son of God, Jesus of Nazareth, is of a distinct substance from the Father. Three years after that council, Athanasius succeeded his mentor as archbishop of Alexandria.

    As to the main point, the Son was declared to be of the “same substance” with the Father.  Arius was branded a heretic and banished to one of the remote provinces of Illyricum. “I am persecuted,” He cried, “because I have taught that the Son had a beginning and the Father had not.”  

    The ruling of the Emperor was clear.  He quickly issued letters denouncing Arius and ordered that anyone found with a copy of his writings must burn it or be put to death.  

    Concerning the nature of Christ, the first Nicene Creed reads: “The Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church anathematizes those who say that there was a time when the Son of God was not; and that before he was begotten he was not, and that he was made out of nothing, or out of another substance or essence, and is created, or changeable, or alterable.”
 
    At the Council of Nicaea, the debate was over the nature of Christ (begotten vs unbegotten).  The nature of the Spirit was not an issue.  It would be another fifty-six years before the church would decree worship of the Holy Spirit.

    Now the Emperor Constantine was a base and vile criminal.  He had murdered his son Crispus, his nephew Licenius, and suffocated in a steam bath his wife of twenty years - Fausta, mother of three of his sons. The public abhorrence of his deeds could not be concealed.  A plaque comparing his reign to that of Nero was affixed to the palace gate.  Constantine threatened to massacre the Roman populace who had insulted him.

    This is the same Constantine who feigned a “conversion” to Christ, but not wanting to antagonize the pagan element, waited until he lay on his death bed to be “baptized” (just in case there is indeed a judgment).  He is the same who decreed that Christians and pagans should “rest” on the same day - Sunday.

    The favorite sister of Constantine, a supporter of the disrepute teacher, prevailed upon her brother and barely three years after the date of the council Arius was restored to favor.  He was treated by the whole court with the respect which would have been due to an innocent and oppressed man.  His faith was approved by the synod of Jerusalem; and the emperor seemed impatient to repair his injustice. He issued a royal command that Arius should receive the holy communion in the cathedral of Constantinople, but on the same day which had been fixed for His triumph, Arius  died very suddenly and under strange  circumstances.  The opponents of Arius said that God had answered their prayers and saved the church from the worst of her enemies.  The three principle leaders of the Catholics - Athanasius of Alexandria, Eustathius of Antioch, and Paul of Constantinople were deposed, accused by numerous councils; and were afterwards banished to distant provinces.  The believers were left to choose what they would believe with regard to the death of Arius - be it miracle or poisoning.  

    The council which took place in Nicaea (c.325) was only the first of nine “world” councils in early church history.  Creed followed creed.  The seventh ecumenical council, the second to take place in Nicaea (c.787) was convened by the Byzantine empress Irene to rule on the use of saints’ images and icons in religious devotions.  The council declared that the veneration of images was “legitimate” and the intercession of saints “efficacious,” yet their veneration must be distinguished from the worship due to the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit.

 I review all of this to point out that early church Fathers, did have DIFFERENT views concerning the nature of Christ.  For myself, I prefer to study Scriptures - to see if I can determine where the weight of the argument falls.