Ellen White & the Trinity

[8thdaypriest]

Matthew 28:19  "Go therefore and make disciples of all the nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit"

COMPARE

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said to them, "Repent, and let every one of you be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit."

Acts 8:16 because the Holy Spirit had not yet come on any of them; they had simply been baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Acts 10:48 So he ordered that they be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ.

Acts 19:5 On hearing this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Acts 19:5  When they heard this, they were baptized in the name of the Lord Jesus.

Romans 6:3 Or do you not know that as many of us as were baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into His death?

Galatians 3:27 For as many of you as were baptized into Christ have put on Christ.  [NOTE:  We are baptized "in" to Christ.]

The the disciples not get the instruction right ????

These seven verses don't make sense - unless the instruction of Christ to the disciples was "make disciples of all nations, baptizing them in My name", which is how Eusebius quotes the verse some 18 times.  Only much later, in old age, and under the domination of Constantine, did he quote the verse using the Trinitarian formula.  Those are the two quotes always sited by those who hold to the Trinitarian view.   

Personally, I think the weight is on the side of a suspicious alteration of the original text of Matthew 28:19. 

[JoeMo]

As far as whether Christ had a "beginning" or not, I have to side with Arius.  However, being "begotten" out of the exact same "God-stuff" as the Father happened prior to the "creation of anything.  Scripture makes it clear that Christ was the Creator.  So as far as "creation" is concerned, Christ might as well be eternal, in that He existed prior to all creation.

[8thdaypriest]

4 hours ago, JoeMo said:

As far as whether Christ had a "beginning" or not, I have to side with Arius.  However, being "begotten" out of the exact same "God-stuff" as the Father happened prior to the "creation of anything.  Scripture makes it clear that Christ was the Creator.  So as far as "creation" is concerned, Christ might as well be eternal, in that He existed prior to all creation.

I agree!! 

JWs believe that Christ was "created".  I actually had 2 JW missionaries come to my door on Friday morning.  First time in 13 years.  I told them that Christ was NOT created.  He was begotten.  He is "head over all creation" BECAUSE He created everything.   I quoted the Scriptures.  They didn't stay long.  They were up and out the door in less than 10 minutes.   

[8thdaypriest]

GREETINGS AND BENEDICTIONS

Romans 1:7 “To all who are in Rome, beloved of God, called to be saints: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.”  (two Beings)

1 Corinthians 1:3 “Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.”  (two Beings)

2 Corinthians 1:2-3 “Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ. Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort,”  (two Beings, and the Father is God OF Christ)  

Ephesians 1:2 “Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.”  (two Beings)

Ephesians 6:23 “Peace to the brethren, and love with faith, from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.”  (two Beings)

Philippians 1:2 “Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.”  (two Beings)

Philippians 4:19-20  “And my God shall supply all your need according to His riches in glory by Christ Jesus. Now to our God and Father be glory forever and ever. Amen.”  (two Beings)

    Colossians 1:2-3 “To the saints and faithful brethren in Christ who are in Colossi: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.  We give thanks to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you,”  (two Beings.  And the Father is God OF Christ, long after He returned to Heaven.)
        
    1 Thessalonians 1:1  “Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.”

    2 Thessalonians 1:1-2 “Paul, Silvanus, and Timothy, To the church of the Thessalonians in God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ: Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.”  (Two Beings)

    1 Timothy 1:2 “To Timothy, a true son in the faith: Grace, mercy, and peace from God our Father and Jesus Christ our Lord.”   (Two Beings)

    Titus 1:4  “To Titus, a true son in our common faith: Grace, mercy, and peace from God the Father and the Lord Jesus Christ our Savior.”  (Two Beings)

Philemon 1:3 “Grace to you and peace from God our Father and the Lord Jesus Christ.”

2 John 1:3 “Grace, mercy, and peace will be with you from God the Father and from the Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Father, in truth and love.” (Two Beings)  Note that Jesus is "the Son of the Father" - not one of three co-equals.)

    Jude 1:1 “Jude, a bond servant of Jesus Christ, and brother of James, To those who are called, sanctified by God the Father, and preserved in Jesus Christ:”  (Two Beings)

________________

  Fourteen times Paul greeted believers in the name of the Father and the Son.   Paul believed that he spoke FOR Christ and His Father - God.  Putting all the verses up just makes a statement I think.  I don't believe that Paul FORGOT to include the Spirit in his greetings. 

Once Paul prayed that the grace of Christ, the love of God, and the communion of the Spirit would be with the followers of Christ (2Cor 13:14).  Does this one mention convince me that the Spirit is a third divine being.  NO.  God our Father beget a Son, and sends forth the Spirit of His Son - into our hearts (Gal 4:6).  This indwelling of the "spirit of His Son", results in fellowship with both Father and Son.  It results in sweet "communion" between fellow believers. 

“Our fellowship is with the Father and with His Son” (1John 1:3, 1John 2:24).

Respectfully,

Rachel Cory, http://www.prophecyviewpoint.com/htdocs/44d-Part%204%20TR-2%20Div%20Beings.pdf

 

 

        
 

 

[8thdaypriest]

Thought I'd put a few more verses. 

QUESTION:  Who sent Christ?   ANSWER:  God the Father. 

1 John 4:14 “And we have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son as Savior of the world.”

    John 5:30  [Christ]  I do not seek My own will but the will of the Father who sent Me” (John 5:23, John 5:37).

    John 5:37 [Christ] “"And the Father Himself, who sent Me, has testified of Me. You have neither heard His voice at any time, nor seen His form” (John 8:16).

    John 6:39 [Christ] “This is the will of the Father who sent Me, that of all He has given Me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up at the last day.”

    John 6:44 [Christ] “No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day.”

    John 6:57 [Christ] “As the living Father sent Me, and I live because of the Father, so he who feeds on Me will live because of Me.”

    John 8:16 [Christ] “And yet if I do judge, My judgment is true; for I am not alone, but I am with the Father who sent Me.”

    John 8:29 [Christ] “And He who sent Me is with Me. The Father has not left Me alone, for I always do those things that please Him.”

    John 8:42 “Jesus said to them, ‘If God were your Father, you would love Me, for I proceeded forth and came from God; nor have I come of Myself, but He sent Me.’”

    John 10:36 [Christ] “Do you say of Him whom the Father sanctified and sent into the world, ‘You are blaspheming,’ because I said, ‘I am the Son of God?’”

John 12:49 “For I have not spoken on My own authority; but the Father who sent Me gave Me a command, what I should say and what I should speak.”

    John 17:21 [Jesus last prayer to His Father] “ ... that they all may be one, as You, Father, are in Me, and I in You; that they also may be one in Us, that the world may believe that You sent Me.”

John 17:25 “O righteous Father! The world has not known You, but I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me.”

Not one time, does John say that "the Holy Spirit" sent Jesus into this world.   John says "the Father sent" His own Son. 

We know the Father is "head of Christ" and He is also the God of Christ.  This is hierarchy - not equality. 

Romans 15:6 that you may with one mind and one mouth glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. (Rom 15:6 NKJ)

2 Corinthians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort, (NKJ).

I won't repeat all 15 verses. 

I can't get a Trinity from these passages.  I only see TWO divine beings.  One is HEAD of the other.  One is God of the other.  One is the Father of the other. 

John 20:21 “So Jesus said to them again, “Peace to you! As the Father has sent Me, I also send you.”

 

[8thdaypriest]

Thank you Jackson.  You just show me where my writing is not great, and I'll edit.  You can help me IMPROVE my writing. 

I wrote "The Persons of God" back in '98, so that was awhile ago.  Even Mrs White's views of things CHANGED. 

If you're really going to follow her advice - that the Spirit is a mystery and "silence is golden", then why argue concerning just exactly who/what the Spirit is?  If Mrs White really felt that way, then why write that the Spirit is "the third person" of a "heavenly trio"?  There's no place where she said that the LORD specifically TOLD her that there are "three beings" of a "heavenly trio". 

The coming of "the Spirit" would testify of Christ - that He really was the Son of God.  I have no problem with that. 

The "plain reading of Scripture" does NOT reveal that Jesus is speaking of ANOTHER "personage".  He said, "I am with you."  And "I will never leave you."  But that would NOT be TRUE, if another personage was going to be "with them".  Jesus said the one who was "with you" "will be in you".  So just WHO was "in them" after the Spirit was poured out?  Wasn't it Jesus.  Paul said, "Christ IN YOU, the hope of glory".  Right?

In Revelation, the Spirit speaking to the churches IS JESUS.  Just read his words.  This could only be Jesus speaking.  "I am he who was dead." 

Does anyone know why some translations quote Acts 16:7 as "the Spirit of Jesus", but others simply say "the Spirit"?  Are they working off different manuscripts? 

NRS  Acts 16:7 When they had come opposite Mysia, they attempted to go into Bithynia, but the Spirit of Jesus did not allow them;

ASV and NAU also use "the Spirit of Christ".  NIV, KJV, NKJV use "the Spirit". 

I believe that Jesus was directing His disciples, just as He directed all the prophets of old.

1 Peter 1:11 searching what, or what manner of time, the Spirit of Christ who was in them was indicating when He testified beforehand the sufferings of Christ and the glories that would follow. (NKJ)

How could Paul speak of "Christ in you, the hope of glory" is it was NOT really Jesus who indwells people, but rather another Being does it FOR Jesus. 

I CAN tell you one thing I've been sure of, these last 27 years.  I've been SURE that God is NOT "three beings of a heavenly trio". 

I guess you could say that the pre-incarnate divine son of God was being #1.  The human son of God was #2.  And the glorified, empowered Son of God was #3.  Sorry - I'm being confusing again.  Just ignore that. 

 

 

[stinsonmarri]

Wow, is all I can say again. Jackson you truly need to understand Paleo-Hebrew and Greek. Let me say this very clearly some  of EGW writings were change to make it appear that she believe in some type of trinity, she did not. Now she as well as all of them brought Protestant beliefs into the Advent Church. They all believed that THE HOLY SPIRIT came from THE FATHER. But you all fail to see that the word godhead is pagan. It comes from the Roman belief of the two headed god Janus. That's why New Year is kept in January as the beginning of the year. YAHWEH stated clearly that the new year is the month of Abib. Ex 12:2; 13:4; 23:15; 34:18; Deut 16:1 So did the Bible speak of SUPREME BEINGS  not the word person that was placed in there. Don't you all know that the word "person" still comes from the word trinity? She did not understand that neither did any of our co-founders, also the Journal of the Adventist Theological Society was incorrect. It stated " that James White co-founded voted official endorsement of a Fundamental Beliefs statement that explicitly professed belief in the 'Trinity.' " I also agree with this statement that the Journal stated:

(1) that Ellen White agreed with every aspect of the pioneers’ antitrinitarian view of God; (2) that Ellen White’s view never changed (she was antitrinitarian at the beginning and always remained so); therefore, (3) her later writings that seem to express a trinitarian view are not to be taken at face value: they are either “unclear” statements to be read through the lens of her earlier writings, or they are inauthentic statements produced not by her, but by others who tampered with her writings. The new antitrinitarians further reason (4) that if the current Adventist doctrine of the Trinity is the same doctrine that early Adventists, including Ellen White, rejected, then the current Adventist doctrine of the Trinity is a heresy based on extrabiblical tradition, hence an apostasy from the church’s biblical foundations. The Journal of the Adventist Theological Society

Here is the proof of what they believed:

I – That there is one God, a personal, spiritual being, the creator of all things, omnipotent, omniscient, and eternal, infinite in wisdom, holiness, justice, goodness, truth, and mercy; unchangeable, and everywhere present by his representative, the Holy Spirit. II – That there is one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of the Eternal Father. . . Steam Press of the Seventh-Day Adventist Publishing Association Battle Creek, Mich. 1872

In here they felt that THE HOLY SPIRIT was a REPRESENTATIVE of YAHWEH ELOHIM. No where do you find the word Trinity, however they still used the word personal which comes from the Greek word "hupostasis." This is how we shall begin to delve in proving both the facts and truth.

Essence (n.) late 14c., essencia (respelled late 15c. on French model), from Latin essentia "being, essence," abstract noun formed (to translate Greek ousia "being, essence") from essent-, present participle stem of esse "to be," from PIE *es- "to be" (cognates: Sanskrit asmi, Hittite eimi, Old Church Slavonic jesmi, Lithuanian esmi, Gothic imi, Old English eom "I am;" see be).

Originally "substance of the Trinity;" the general sense of "basic element of anything" is first recorded in English 1650s

Be (v.) Old English beon, beom, bion "be, exist, come to be, become, happen," from Proto-Germanic *biju- "I am, I will be." This "b-root" is from PIE root *bheue- "to be, exist, grow, come into being," and in addition to the words in English it yielded German present first and second person singular (bin, bist, from Old High German bim "I am," bist "thou art"), Latin perfective tenses of esse (fui "I was," etc.), Old Church Slavonic byti "be," Greek phu- "become," Old Irish bi'u "I am," Lithuanian bu'ti "to be," Russian byt' "to be," etc. It also is behind Sanskrit bhavah "becoming," bhavati "becomes, happens," bhumih "earth, world." Online Etymology Dictionary

Now Ex 3:15 the Hebrew word "hâvâ'  or  hâvâh" means the exact same thing as RUACH which is QUDASH RUACH and in English THE HOLY SPIRIT, "to breathe" or life! Why would all the translators of the Bible do something very unusual in Gen 1: 26 and something different in verse 27? It is not complicated at all. The plural pronoun "us" [Heb, "mimmennu"] was to indicate all THREE, but who was THE ONE to create, why of course YAHSHUA THE SON and here's the proof:

 

And YAHWEH visually appeared to him by the oaks of Mamre. And he was Sitting at the door of the tent in the heat of the day. Gen 18:1 (HRB)

Behold, I am about to send a messenger before you, to guard you in the way, and to bring you to the place which I have prepared. Be on guard before Him, and listen to His voice. Do not be rebellious against Him, for He will not forgive your transgressions; for My name is in Him. Ex 23:20, 21

And they saw the Elohim of Israel. And under His feet was as the work of a pavement of sapphire, and as the heavens for clearness. And He did not stretch out His hand to the nobles of the sons of Israel. And they saw Elohim, and they ate and drank. Ex 24:10, 11

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with ELOHIM, and the Word was ELOHIM. The same was in the beginning with ELOHIM. All things were made by him; and without him was not anything made that was made. In him was life; and the life was the light of men. John 1:1-4 

Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Heb 1:2 

But we must clear up three things and the first is the Greek word "hupostasis."

The English word "substance" TODAY has acquired a modified meaning, namely "essential nature", etc.. But that is not what "hypostasis" meant in the days of the Apostle Paul!

Scholars recognize that the rendition as "PERSON" in Hebrews 1:3 is really an anachronism, i.e. it is chronologically out of place, meaning that it was NEVER translated as "PERSON" until the 4th Century A.D. ... i.e. soon after the time of Origen (185-254 AD). Origen was a rather radical theologian of the Roman Catholic Church, who tried to reconcile Greek philosophy with Christian theology. This becomes quite evident in his works "DE PRINCIPIIS" and "CONTRA CELSUM." His use of the word "HUPOSTASIS" should be viewed as highly suspect. The English word "substance" TODAY has acquired a modified meaning, namely "essential nature", etc.. But that is not what "hypostasis" meant in the days of the Apostle Paul! Let's look again at Hebrews 1:3. Who being the brightness of [his] glory, and the express image of his PERSON, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high; (Hebrews 1:3) Here the translators rendered "hypostasis" as "person." They did this before Sir William Ramsay's time, when they weren't really sure of what this word actually meant in Koine Greek. Today scholars readily admit that "person" is really an anachronism, since it was NEVER rendered as "person" until several centuries after Paul’s time. It is exactly the same kind of anachronism as when people today take the word "conversation" in the KJV of the Bible to mean "speech." It is equally as much an anachronism to attach the meaning "essential nature" to this usage here in Hebrews 1:3, since it was not until Origen's time, well into the third century A.D., that "theologians" of the Catholic Church developed this meaning of “essential nature.” Frank Nelte

So there won't be doubt about Frank Nelte facts here are other Bible Scholars who back up what this man said who was from the former WCOG. Greek Thoughts' Studylight.org; yes even the United States Conference of Catholic Bishops who Scriptures read this now:

Who is the refulgence of his glory, the very imprint of his being, and who sustains all things by his mighty word. When he had accomplished purification from sins, he took his seat at the right hand of the Majesty on high. (NABRE)

So now we move to the next problem and I can't for the life of me see how we as Adventist didn't advance in truth that the co-founders found against the trinity. The answer is in all of the above Scriptures but more so here in Heb 1:3 YAHSHUA sets down on the right side of HIS FATHER!! And how can three be one it is impossible. Even a baby has something from both parents and Gen 2:24 says one flesh. So are we all one person two? That is so ridiculous so why believe it by the word one when it comes to THE FATHER, SON and HOLY SPIRIT. My conclusion the SDA church has revert back to Catholicism like all the other Protestants whom they claim follow them anyway! Now the third thing has two part and we end with it.

What or who is THE HOLY SPIRIT, so now Adventist wants to think and believe like Catholic's. What the problem is the "of" in Gen 1:2, which is not in the original Hebrew. EGW clearly stated herself that words had been changed in the Bible who also states it especially Rev 22:19.  Gen 1:2 should read: "And THE SPIRIT ELOHIM moved," but the new thought that eventually formed the Catholic church was this monotheistic concept. It is suppose to originate from the Hebrews but that is not true at all. I gave you Scriptures to refute the trinity lie and are we to take and believe the backsliding Israel known as the Pharisees during and after YAHSHUA'S day. Even the NT gives you proof of THREE separate SUPREME BEINGS. THE FATHER, THE ALMIGHTY and THE SON became flesh who also was ELOHIM so let put away foolishness. We were made in THEIR IMAGES folks. 70 elders, Moses, Aaron, Nadab, Abihu, and Joshua all saw THE SON. So did Abraham Adventist. That's already two SUPREME BEINGS and here is the proof about THE HOLY SPIRIT! The co-founders used the correct word "representative," meaning to serve. Truly they did not understand who exactly was THE HOLY SPIRIT, because of HIS UNIQUENESS. HIS function or A BEING that can do all source of thing, but THEY ALL could. Why in Gen 6:3 would YAHWEH say MY SPIRIT, instead of I will? HE said it a lot of other times. Gen 2:18; Ex 6:7; Job 40:7; Psa 89:35; Isa 37:29; Hos 4:6; Rev 3:16 Because THE HOLY SPIRIT was as it  was shown to the co-founders HE was YAHWEH ELOHIM'S REPRESENTATIVE as YAHSHUA was HIS MESSENGER and THEY BOTH were also THE  COMFORT sent at special appointed time!

Adventist it is time to wake up and see the truth:

We may define the doctrine of the Trinity as follows: God eternally exists as three persons, Father, Son, and Holy Spirit, and each person is fully God, and there is one God. Scholar's Article by Wayne Grudem

Later on I will refute Tim Poirier “Ellen White’s Trinitarian Statements: What Did She Actually Write?”

Blessings!

 

 

[Kevin H]

On Sunday, February 14, 2016 at 0:18 AM, stinsonmarri said:

Wow, is all I can say again. Jackson you truly need to understand Paleo-Hebrew and Greek. Let me say this very clearly some  of EGW writings were change to make it appear that she believe in some type of trinity, she did not.

 

 

In about 1903 Elder Andresen went to Mrs. White to ask her if her writings were changed to make it appear that she believed in the trinity and if she did indeed believe in the trinity or not. She greeted him and let him read the disputed quotes in her own handwriting. She claimed that she did write them. Denied that others changed them and convinced Elder Andresen to become a Trinitarian too. He came to visit her believing like you did and left the visit a committed Trinitarian. Did Mrs. White lie to him? Are you correcting her mistake with Elder Andresen?

[8thdaypriest]

6 hours ago, Kevin H said:

In about 1903 Elder Andresen went to Mrs. White to ask her if her writings were changed to make it appear that she believed in the trinity and if she did indeed believe in the trinity or not. She greeted him and let him read the disputed quotes in her own handwriting. She claimed that she did write them. Denied that others changed them and convinced Elder Andresen to become a Trinitarian too. He came to visit her believing like you did and left the visit a committed Trinitarian. Did Mrs. White lie to him? Are you correcting her mistake with Elder Andresen?

Thanks Kevin.  I saw the CHANGE in her writing - from TWO beings (Father and Son) to "three beings of the heavenly trio".   I have wondered whether she actually BECAME a Trinitarian.  I wondered whether underwriters brought in the change.  I did notice - in my research of her writings, that she WENT BACK

[8thdaypriest]

18 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Thanks Kevin.  I saw the CHANGE in her writing - from TWO beings (Father and Son) to "three beings of the heavenly trio".   I have wondered whether she actually BECAME a Trinitarian.  I wondered whether underwriters brought in the change.  I did notice - in my research of her writings, that she WENT BACK

Phone rang and I hit the post button.  Here's the rest of my post.

Thanks Kevin.  I saw the CHANGE in her writing - from TWO beings (Father and Son) to "three beings of the heavenly trio".   I have wondered whether she actually BECAME a Trinitarian.  I wondered whether underwriters brought in the change.  I did notice - in my research of her writings, that she WENT BACK to only Father and Son in the last 10 years of her writing.  This CHANGE in her writings, concerning the very nature of God, caused me to DOUBT her "gift".  You would think that God would communicate clearly to His "prophet", concerning WHO we are to worship.  She taught only Father and Son for 50 years, only changing in 1896 after Marion Davis heard Herbert C Lacey at a camp meeting in Australia.  It's no wonder leaders like Andresen, questioned the CHANGE. 

The first Commandment says "Have no other Gods before me."  If the Father is  "the only true God" and is "head" even of Christ, and is God OF Christ, then the Father is HEAD of all.  Teaching that God is actually a "trio" of three beings, who are co-equal, inserts ANOTHER "God" - who is worshiped.  I see that as breaking the first commandment.  This is very serious. 

We worship Jesus BECAUSE the Father commanded it.  There is no command to worship the Spirit.  There is no example - in Scripture, of anyone worshiping the Spirit. 

I believe Jesus was DIVINE, before His incarnation BECAUSE He was begotten from God His Father.  He "came forth from the Father".  But that meant His Father was HEAD.  We need to put God the Father where He belongs in our worship. 

[Kevin H]

6 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

 

The first Commandment says "Have no other Gods before me."  If the Father is  "the only true God" and is "head" even of Christ, and is God OF Christ, then the Father is HEAD of all.  Teaching that God is actually a "trio" of three beings, who are co-equal, inserts ANOTHER "God" - who is worshiped.  I see that as breaking the first commandment.  This is very serious.

 

Actually this is where the confusion lies. We have sets of opposites: Oneness/Threeness. Infinite/Finite, Impersonal/Personal, Eastern Thought/Western Though among others.

We are finite beings. God is Infinite. In the area of the infinite that we cannot comprehend it is only one God. The trinity is how this infinite God reveals himself to finite beings. They are 3 aspects that we need to know about God. The 3 are implied in the Old Testament with the term "El" being what we understand as God the Father, and "Yahweh/Jehovah/The LORD" being the personal aspect of God or God the Son, and the spirit of God on how God works with our subjective (the Holy Spirit) and the plural "Elohim" to have the oneness between them.

There is a Rabbi who is a professor at Hebrew University in Israel. He is the world's leading scholar in second temple Judaism. I studied with Jim Fleming who worked with this professor. While Dr. Fleming does not mention the Rabbi's name in his recorded lecture, he points out that this Rabbi discovered that the trinity was developed by the Second Temple Jews to try to explain Old Testament concepts to a more western thinking world.

Dr. Fleming describes this old Jewish understanding of the trinity as a mountain with a cloud. We are not able to see the top of the mountain because of that cloud. But below the cloud we are able to experience the mountain by three ridges. These are 3 aspects of the same mountain.

To Seventh-day Adventism and Mrs. White this moved center stage as Mrs. White developed the Great Controversy. These 3 aspects of God are God as power, the one sitting on the throne, the unapproachable light, the deep darkness. A power too scary to have the personal relationship with. But we cannot exist without that personal relationship so we also experience him as one of us who we can relate to, God the son. And we need to hold in tension that our friend is also this great power that we need to see as our only source of life. And we need God working with our subjective as well. This great power and good friend are both objective revelations of this to carry on the analogy "mountain" the Holy Spirit is the ridge dealing with our subjective experience. Mrs. White has 3 deceptions of Satan which attacks the 3 revelations. Most if not all the 3's in the Bible deals with these 3 issues. the 3 temptations in the wilderness were attacks on the 3 aspects of the trinity. The 3 beasts in Revelation 12 and 13 are the 3 aspects of the trinity but independent of each other and using each other for their own selfish purposes. The 3 angel's messages are to clarify confusion of the trinity.

We also see this in the exodus 20 version of the 10 commandments breaks into 3 thirds each dealing with these 3 aspects. The first third consists of 3 commandments dealing with God as power and authority. The last third consists of 6 commandments deals with the subjective nature of God into making sinners into loving and loveable people. The middle third consists of one commandment that says that the only way you can love God supremely and your neighbor as your self is through resting in a personal relationship with this God.  Thus the first commandment is that this God of these 3 thirds of the commands the God of these 3 aspects, the God of these 3 revelations, is the one God to worship.

As the church and synagogue split around 135 AD many doctrines we held in common were split like property in a divorce. After this time the Jews focused more on the oneness of God, and Christians more on the threeness. Too often when we think of the trinity we have this post 135 AD threeness. This trips us up when we look at the oneness of God and leads to your perception and question.

Maybe thinking of the mountain where there is a cloud. Now the mountain analogy falls short in that with a mountain that the part above the cloud is smaller and ends; while with God it's so much more bigger and beyond comprehension transcending time and space and infinite and eternal. This infinite God did not try to confuse us by becoming trinity. And if he wanted to he could make thousands yea billions upon billions of more revelations of himself to us. But we need these three to be necessary and sufficient for us to understand and communicate that there is one being out there where we can only use the words "Holy, Holy, Holy"

As western thinkers we want to think in the metaphysical. "God is this" Eastern thought and Hebrew thought is through experience. If we go to heaven and see God the Father, and Jesus and if the Holy Spirit would make himself visible to us and we think that we are seeing God in total, we would drop dead of the sin of idolatry. These would only be revelations of something much greater beyond what we can comprehend. We need to be able to see the three of them and realize that they are only revelations of something beyond what our minds can comprehend,  that these are the best we can comprehend and that they are to relate to something bigger. And if seeing the 3 together and thinking that's "God" is idolatry, how much more is it a sin of idolatry is it to just take one aspect of the 3 revelations and make that God in total?

Two books that you may find helpful is  Boman's "Hebrew Thought Compared to Greek" https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/958876.Hebrew_Thought_Compared_with_Greek And while this next book is a Jewish book and not about the trinity, it is a very clear explanation of the trinity.is Rabbi James L Kugel's "The God of Old" http://www.amazon.com/The-God-Old-Inside-World/dp/0743235851

I hope you find this useful.

 

[LifeHiscost]

6 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Phone rang and I hit the post button.  Here's the rest of my post.

Thanks Kevin.  I saw the CHANGE in her writing - from TWO beings (Father and Son) to "three beings of the heavenly trio".   I have wondered whether she actually BECAME a Trinitarian.  I wondered whether underwriters brought in the change.  I did notice - in my research of her writings, that she WENT BACK to only Father and Son in the last 10 years of her writing.  This CHANGE in her writings, concerning the very nature of God, caused me to DOUBT her "gift".  You would think that God would communicate clearly to His "prophet", concerning WHO we are to worship.  She taught only Father and Son for 50 years, only changing in 1896 after Marion Davis heard Herbert C Lacey at a camp meeting in Australia.  It's no wonder leaders like Andresen, questioned the CHANGE. 

The first Commandment says "Have no other Gods before me."  If the Father is  "the only true God" and is "head" even of Christ, and is God OF Christ, then the Father is HEAD of all.  Teaching that God is actually a "trio" of three beings, who are co-equal, inserts ANOTHER "God" - who is worshiped.  I see that as breaking the first commandment.  This is very serious. 

We worship Jesus BECAUSE the Father commanded it.  There is no command to worship the Spirit.  There is no example - in Scripture, of anyone worshiping the Spirit. 

I believe Jesus was DIVINE, before His incarnation BECAUSE He was begotten from God His Father.  He "came forth from the Father".  But that meant His Father was HEAD.  We need to put God the Father where He belongs in our worship. 

 

7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one....1 John 5

 

Seems plainly explained, only perhaps needing to distinguish the difference in the responsibilities.

 

9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

John 14

 

24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.....John 15

 

God is Love!~Jesus saves!  

 

 

[8thdaypriest]

38 minutes ago, Kevin H said:

Actually this is where the confusion lies. We have sets of opposites: Oneness/Threeness. Infinite/Finite, Impersonal/Personal, Eastern Thought/Western Though among others.

We are finite beings. God is Infinite. In the area of the infinite that we cannot comprehend it is only one God. The trinity is how this infinite God reveals himself to finite beings. They are 3 aspects that we need to know about God. The 3 are implied in the Old Testament with the term "El" being what we understand as God the Father, and "Yahweh/Jehovah/The LORD" being the personal aspect of God or God the Son, and the spirit of God on how God works with our subjective (the Holy Spirit) and the plural "Elohim" to have the oneness between them.

There is a Rabbi who is a professor at Hebrew University in Israel. He is the world's leading scholar in second temple Judaism. I studied with Jim Fleming who worked with this professor. While Dr. Fleming does not mention the Rabbi's name in his recorded lecture, he points out that this Rabbi discovered that the trinity was developed by the Second Temple Jews to try to explain Old Testament concepts to a more western thinking world.

Dr. Fleming describes this old Jewish understanding of the trinity as a mountain with a cloud. We are not able to see the top of the mountain because of that cloud. But below the cloud we are able to experience the mountain by three ridges. These are 3 aspects of the same mountain.

To Seventh-day Adventism and Mrs. White this moved center stage as Mrs. White developed the Great Controversy. These 3 aspects of God are God as power, the one sitting on the throne, the unapproachable light, the deep darkness. A power too scary to have the personal relationship with. But we cannot exist without that personal relationship so we also experience him as one of us who we can relate to, God the son. And we need to hold in tension that our friend is also this great power that we need to see as our only source of life. And we need God working with our subjective as well. This great power and good friend are both objective revelations of this to carry on the analogy "mountain" the Holy Spirit is the ridge dealing with our subjective experience. Mrs. White has 3 deceptions of Satan which attacks the 3 revelations. Most if not all the 3's in the Bible deals with these 3 issues. the 3 temptations in the wilderness were attacks on the 3 aspects of the trinity. The 3 beasts in Revelation 12 and 13 are the 3 aspects of the trinity but independent of each other and using each other for their own selfish purposes. The 3 angel's messages are to clarify confusion of the trinity.

We also see this in the exodus 20 version of the 10 commandments breaks into 3 thirds each dealing with these 3 aspects. The first third consists of 3 commandments dealing with God as power and authority. The last third consists of 6 commandments deals with the subjective nature of God into making sinners into loving and loveable people. The middle third consists of one commandment that says that the only way you can love God supremely and your neighbor as your self is through resting in a personal relationship with this God.  Thus the first commandment is that this God of these 3 thirds of the commands the God of these 3 aspects, the God of these 3 revelations, is the one God to worship.

As the church and synagogue split around 135 AD many doctrines we held in common were split like property in a divorce. After this time the Jews focused more on the oneness of God, and Christians more on the threeness. Too often when we think of the trinity we have this post 135 AD threeness. This trips us up when we look at the oneness of God and leads to your perception and question.

Maybe thinking of the mountain where there is a cloud. Now the mountain analogy falls short in that with a mountain that the part above the cloud is smaller and ends; while with God it's so much more bigger and beyond comprehension transcending time and space and infinite and eternal. This infinite God did not try to confuse us by becoming trinity. And if he wanted to he could make thousands yea billions upon billions of more revelations of himself to us. But we need these three to be necessary and sufficient for us to understand and communicate that there is one being out there where we can only use the words "Holy, Holy, Holy"

As western thinkers we want to think in the metaphysical. "God is this" Eastern thought and Hebrew thought is through experience. If we go to heaven and see God the Father, and Jesus and if the Holy Spirit would make himself visible to us and we think that we are seeing God in total, we would drop dead of the sin of idolatry. These would only be revelations of something much greater beyond what we can comprehend. We need to be able to see the three of them and realize that they are only revelations of something beyond what our minds can comprehend,  that these are the best we can comprehend and that they are to relate to something bigger. And if seeing the 3 together and thinking that's "God" is idolatry, how much more is it a sin of idolatry is it to just take one aspect of the 3 revelations and make that God in total?

Two books that you may find helpful is  Boman's "Hebrew Thought Compared to Greek" https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/958876.Hebrew_Thought_Compared_with_Greek And while this next book is a Jewish book and not about the trinity, it is a very clear explanation of the trinity.is Rabbi James L Kugel's "The God of Old" http://www.amazon.com/The-God-Old-Inside-World/dp/0743235851

I hope you find this useful.

 

Kevin,

When Western churches want to explain the Trinity, they always go to the argument that it is just to far beyond human understanding. 

Me - I just want to keep it simple.  Paul wrote, "Grace to you and peace FROM (#1) God our Father and (#2) the Lord Jesus Christ."  (14 times) That's simple. 

1 Corinthians 8:6  "yet for us there is one God, the Father, (#1) of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, (#2) through whom are all things, and through whom we live."  That's simple.

Revelation 7:10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne (#1), and to the Lamb (#2)!"  That's simple.

Revelation 5:13 "And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying: "Blessing and honor and glory and power Be to Him who sits on the throne, (#1) And to the Lamb (#2), forever and ever1!"   That's simple.

1 John 1:3 "and truly our fellowship is with the Father (#1) and with His Son Jesus Christ (#2).  Simple.   (No fellowship with the Spirit?)

1 John 2:24 "Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son (#1) and in the Father (#2).

Simple. 

 

 

 

 

[8thdaypriest]

20 minutes ago, LifeHiscost said:

 

7 For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one....1 John 5

 

Seems plainly explained, only perhaps needing to distinguish the difference in the responsibilities.

 

9 Jesus saith unto him, Have I been so long time with you, and yet hast thou not known me, Philip? he that hath seen me hath seen the Father; and how sayest thou then, Show us the Father?

John 14

 

24 If I had not done among them the works which none other man did, they had not had sin: but now have they both seen and hated both me and my Father.....John 15

 

God is Love!~Jesus saves!  

 

 

Folks who want to PROVE the Trinity, always quote 1John 5:7 and Matthew 28:19.  Both verses are suspect.  Most scholars agree that 1John 5:7 was added to the text by the Catholic church - eager to prove a Trinity.  Recent scholarship has made a strong case for the baptismal formula also being altered.  It is suspect that every manuscript up through Constantine, has the last page torn out.  One Aramaic manuscript survived intact.  In that manuscript, Jesus says, "baptizing them in My name." 

Jesus own disciples went about baptizing "in the name of Jesus Christ".  There are SIX examples of this.  There is NOT ONE example of a disciple baptizing in the name of Father, Son and Holy Ghost.  Besides the Holy Spirit does not have a name.  The Son is Jesus, and the Father is Yahweh - the One True God (See John Cpt 17). 

[Kevin H]

3 hours ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Kevin,

When Western churches want to explain the Trinity, they always go to the argument that it is just to far beyond human understanding.

Me - I just want to keep it simple.  Paul wrote, "Grace to you and peace FROM (#1) God our Father and (#2) the Lord Jesus Christ."  (14 times) That's simple.

1 Corinthians 8:6  "yet for us there is one God, the Father, (#1) of whom are all things, and we for Him; and one Lord Jesus Christ, (#2) through whom are all things, and through whom we live."  That's simple.

Revelation 7:10 and crying out with a loud voice, saying, "Salvation belongs to our God who sits on the throne (#1), and to the Lamb (#2)!"  That's simple.

Revelation 5:13 "And every creature which is in heaven and on the earth and under the earth and such as are in the sea, and all that are in them, I heard saying: "Blessing and honor and glory and power Be to Him who sits on the throne, (#1) And to the Lamb (#2), forever and ever1!"   That's simple.

1 John 1:3 "and truly our fellowship is with the Father (#1) and with His Son Jesus Christ (#2).  Simple.   (No fellowship with the Spirit?)

1 John 2:24 "Therefore let that abide in you which you heard from the beginning. If what you heard from the beginning abides in you, you also will abide in the Son (#1) and in the Father (#2).

Simple.

 

 

 

 

You are taking these verses as first and second place. While in reality they are parallel couplets where it is a poetic device of saying the same thing in 2 ways.  The reason why King Saul was upset that they said "Saul has killed his thousands and David his ten thousands" was not the number. He would have been just as upset if it read "Saul has killed his ten thousands and David his thousands." Because it was a poetic line equating David with Saul. Saul wanted it to say "Saul has killed his thousands, the son of Kish his ten thousands" or even "Saul has killed his thousands and Jonathan his ten thousands." But he hated it that David was considered equal with himself and not secondary.

[JoeMo]

LHC - the verse you quoted from 1John 5, when properly translated, reads : "For there are three that testify: ⁸ the^[a] Spirit, the water and the blood; and the three are in agreement."  The version that you quoted did not exist until a 14th century translation of the Latin Vulgate, which is itself a translation from the original Greek.  The Septuagint never mentions "the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost". Can't make a doctrine out of a translator's twisting of scripture.

[JoeMo]

16 hours ago, Kdogae86 said:

Now in John it is stated no man has seen the Father. In Judges we see several places where the Lord speaks face to face with the individuals. 2 things seem to be established here in my thinking. We have Jesus speaking face to face with man long before he was even "begotten". Secondly, No one has seen the Father but many in the Old Testament had seen Jesus. I'm not sure how the cloud/mountain mountain can be resolved.

What? The being who became Jesus was begotten before creation.  The being who became Jesus was the only begotten Son - the Word - who created all things - including you and me.  He was the Being that walked with Adam and Eve in the Garden.  He was the great I AM whom Moses conversed with in the burning bush.  He was the pillar of cloud in the day and fire by night in the wilderness during the Exodus.  This Being was the God of the OT.  He did not become Jesus until a body fit for His habitation was created inside Mary's womb.  He was the only begotten (not created) Son of God for endless ages before He was Jesus.  He was sometimes referred to as the "angel of the Lord" (maybe Michael?) prior to His human incarnation.

Jesus is the only "God" that humanity has ever seen in this realm.  We could not look on the Father, or we would die.  Most of the prophets fainted dead away when they saw a single angel.

[8thdaypriest]

17 hours ago, Kdogae86 said:

John 1:18 No one has seen God at any time; the only begotten God who is in the bosom of the Father, He has explained Him.
John 6:46 Not that anyone has seen the Father, except the One who is from God; He has seen the Father.

Judges 6:11 Then the angel of the Lord came and sat under the [f]oak that was in Ophrah, which belonged to Joash the Abiezrite as his son Gideon was beating out wheat in the wine press in order to save it from the Midianites. 12 The angel of the Lord appeared to him and said to him, “The Lord is with you, O valiant warrior.” 13 Then Gideon said to him, “O my lord, if the Lord is with us, why then has all this happened to us? And where are all His miracles which our fathers told us about, saying, ‘Did not the Lord bring us up from Egypt?’ But now the Lord has abandoned us and given us into the hand of Midian.” 14 The Lord [g]looked at him and said, “Go in this your strength and deliver Israel from the hand of Midian. Have I not sent you?”

Now in John it is stated no man has seen the Father. In Judges we see several places where the Lord speaks face to face with the individuals. 2 things seem to be established here in my thinking. We have Jesus speaking face to face with man long before he was even "begotten". Secondly, No one has seen the Father but many in the Old Testament had seen Jesus. I'm not sure how the cloud/mountain mountain can be resolved.

I believe that the Son of God - known as Michael (meaning like unto God) was begotten out of God the Father BEFORE anything was created. 

The Son was "the beginning of His way" - the beginning of the Father's way.  Michael was NOT created.  He was BEGOTTEN.

Michael then became the agent of His Father, in creation, in mediation, and in reconciliation.  The Father's glory is "covered" by the "covering cherub".  It is absolutely correct to say that no human being had ever "seen the Father".

Michael appeared to men on earth - to Abraham, to Moses, to Joshua, PRIOR to His incarnation into human nature and form.  When He incarnated, He "emptied Himself" of divine power.  He must live perfectly obedient AS A MAN.  In so doing, He fulfilled the one CONDITION for dominion - perfect obedience. 

Jesus told the woman at the well, "God is spirit".  He also said,  "the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. (NKJ)

This doesn't sound like the true worshipers will worship 3 divine beings.  They "will worship the Father".

It reminds me of I Corinthians 15:24-28. 

"Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For "He has put all things under His feet." But when He says "all things are put under Him," it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. [The Father put all things under Christ.] 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all."

So, in the END we have Christ "subject to" His Father.  I don't see 3 divine beings in this. 

[8thdaypriest]

Just now, 8thdaypriest said:

I believe that the Son of God - known as Michael (meaning like unto God) was begotten out of God the Father BEFORE anything was created. 

The Son was "the beginning of His way" - the beginning of the Father's way.  Michael was NOT created.  He was BEGOTTEN.

Michael then became the agent of His Father, in creation, in mediation, and in reconciliation.  The Father's glory is "covered" by the "covering cherub".  It is absolutely correct to say that no human being had ever "seen the Father".

Michael appeared to men on earth - to Abraham, to Moses, to Joshua, PRIOR to His incarnation into human nature and form.  When He incarnated, He "emptied Himself" of divine power.  He must live perfectly obedient AS A MAN.  In so doing, He fulfilled the one CONDITION for dominion - perfect obedience. 

Jesus told the woman at the well, "God is spirit".  He also said,  "the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth; for the Father is seeking such to worship Him. (NKJ)

This doesn't sound like the true worshipers will worship 3 divine beings.  They "will worship the Father".

It reminds me of I Corinthians 15:24-28. 

"Then comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For "He has put all things under His feet." But when He says "all things are put under Him," it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. [The Father put all things under Christ.] 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be all in all."

So, in the END we have Christ "subject to" His Father.  I don't see 3 divine beings in this. 

Is God the Father omnipresent?  If so - then He is the God who "is spirit" (John 4:24). 

During His life on earth, Jesus said, "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him" (Joh 6:44 NKJ).  Jesus did not credit a third divine being named "the Holy Spirit".  He said the Father draws.  How could the Father do that - unless He is everywhere present?  Jesus said, "I am not alone, because the Father is with Me. (Joh 16:32 NKJ)" .   "The Father is in Me" (Jn 10:38).  "the Father who dwells in Me does the works" (Jn 14:10). 

You're trying to convince us that a third divine being named the "Holy Spirit" dwelt in Christ, and communicated everything from God the Father to Christ.  But that's NOT what the text says. 

If the Father is Himself omnipresent - that would mean the Father "is spirit".  He is a spirit being - the original and omnipotent spirit being.  The source of all life. 

I have a friend who teaches physics.  She one said God is like a photon.  A photon is energy - but it also has mass.  God is like that.  He can sit on a throne - with glory streaming.  But He is also energy (spirit) and so He can be everywhere present. 

 

 

 

 

[8thdaypriest]

Just now, 8thdaypriest said:

Is God the Father omnipresent?  If so - then He is the God who "is spirit" (John 4:24). 

During His life on earth, Jesus said, "No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him" (Joh 6:44 NKJ).  Jesus did not credit a third divine being named "the Holy Spirit".  He said the Father draws.  How could the Father do that - unless He is everywhere present?  Jesus said, "I am not alone, because the Father is with Me. (Joh 16:32 NKJ)" .   "The Father is in Me" (Jn 10:38).  "the Father who dwells in Me does the works" (Jn 14:10). 

You're trying to convince us that a third divine being named the "Holy Spirit" dwelt in Christ, and communicated everything from God the Father to Christ.  But that's NOT what the text says. 

If the Father is Himself omnipresent - that would mean the Father "is spirit".  He is a spirit being - the original and omnipotent spirit being.  The source of all life. 

I have a friend who teaches physics.  She one said God is like a photon.  A photon is energy - but it also has mass.  God is like that.  He can sit on a throne - with glory streaming.  But He is also energy (spirit) and so He can be everywhere present.

 

When Jesus returned to Heaven, and was "glorified" at Pentecost - I believe the Father filled Christ with His spirit - "without measure".  In effect, the Father restored to Christ His divine powers - the powers that He gave up when He incarnated to become a human being.  With new power, Christ could Himself pour out His spirit presence upon His disciples on the earth.  He could empower them to do miracles, just as His Father had done FOR Him, during His earthly ministry.

[8thdaypriest]

37 minutes ago, Kdogae86 said:

Jesus has existed for all eternity. He was begotten at conception by the Holy Spirit when he came to the earth to save humanity. 

Jesus was not begotten at a time before creation.

IF you are correct, then He was NOT the Son of God the Father.

Romans 15:6 that you may with one mind and one mouth glorify the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ. (NKJ)

2 Corinthians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of mercies and God of all comfort, (NKJ)

2 Corinthians 11:31 The God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who is blessed forever, knows that I am not lying. (NKJ)

Ephesians 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who has blessed us with every spiritual blessing in the heavenly places in Christ, (NKJ)

Colossians 1:3 We give thanks to the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, praying always for you," (NKJ)

1 Peter 1:3 Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, who according to His abundant mercy has begotten us again to a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, (NKJ)

Revelation 1:6 and has made us kings and priests to His God and Father, to Him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen. (NKJ)

Paul, Peter, and John seem agreed that Jesus was the Son OF God the Father.  They are also agreed that God the Father IS the GOD OF Christ. 

Proverbs 8:22 "The LORD possessed me as the beginning of His way, Before His works of old. 23 I have been established from everlasting, From the beginning, before there was ever an earth. 24 When there were no depths I was brought forth, [gannao - meaning born] When there were no fountains abounding with water. 25 Before the mountains were settled, Before the hills, I was brought forth; [born] 26 While as yet He had not made the earth or the fields, Or the primeval dust of the world. 27 When He prepared the heavens, I was there, When He drew a circle on the face of the deep, 28 When He established the clouds above, When He strengthened the fountains of the deep, 29 When He assigned to the sea its limit, So that the waters would not transgress His command, When He marked out the foundations of the earth, 30 Then I was beside Him as a master craftsman; And I was daily His delight, Rejoicing always before Him, 31 Rejoicing in His inhabited world, And my delight was with the sons of men." (NKJ)

Even Mrs White said this is the pre-incarnate Christ speaking. 

John 16:28 "I came forth from the Father and have come into the world. Again, I leave the world and go to the Father." (NKJ)  [No mention of a third divine being.}

He "came forth from the Father" BEFORE He came "into the world". 

[8thdaypriest]

26 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

32 minutes ago, 8thdaypriest said:

Is God the Father omnipresent?  If so - then He is the God who "is spirit" (John 4:24).

 

 

 

 

 

Ephesians 4:6 "one God and Father of all, who is above all, and through all, and in you all" (NKJ).

This is the BEST one.  God the Father is "above all" - head even of Christ.  Jesus said, "My Father who is greater than all". 

He is "through all".  That makes Him omnipresent. 

He is "in you all".  That makes Him the omnipresent "spirit". 

I have said for a long time now, that the Spirit of the Father flows through His Son - to us.  This is how we have fellowship with the Son and with the Father - two divine beings. 

 

[JoeMo]

1 hour ago, Kdogae86 said:

Jesus has existed for all eternity. He was begotten at conception by the Holy Spirit when he came to the earth to save humanity. 

Jesus was not begotten at a time before creation.

Really?  Who was the "son" to whom the psalmist referred in Psalms 2:7-12?  Who is the son referred to throughout Hebrews 1? Who is the son referred to in Proverbs 30:4-5?

In Isaiah 9:6 it says "For to us a child is born,  to us a son is given, and the government will be on his shoulders.  And he will be called Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God,   Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace.  Of the greatness of his government and peace there will be no end.  He will reign on David’s throne and over his kingdom, establishing and upholding it with justice and righteousness from that time on and forever.  The zeal of the Lord Almighty will accomplish this."

The "child" part was born of a woman.  The "son" part was what God contributed.  The Son pre-existed the human Jesus; but he came forth from the Father prior to creation. 

[8thdaypriest]

14 hours ago, Kdogae86 said:

God must defy physics and be separate from physics in order to create physics. If God were bound by the laws of physics he wouldn't be God. Physics analogies, in my opinion, come up short in any explanation of God.

I did not say that God IS a photon.  My friend was simply pointing out that nature itself has something that is BOTH mass and energy.  God has created things that are LIKE Himself.  The creation reveals its Designer. 

[JoeMo]

14 hours ago, Kdogae86 said:

Don't think of the beginning as the beginning of Earth. Think of the beginning as the start of time itself. Think of it as at the start of creating the angels or even a heavenly kingdom.

I agree.  I think of "time" beginning with the first act of creation in Genesis 1:1.  The entire concept of time prior to the existence of the universe makes no sense.  In that way, the Being who became Jesus existed before time began.  But the fact remains that He proceedeth forth from the Father which strongly implies that the Father pre-existed Him.  Nonetheless, the Being that became Jesus was composed of the same "God stuff" that the Father was made of - He was NOT a created being.  The being who became Jesus was the Creator.